Heart's Ann Wilson

30:45We didn't know. We were just formulating, you know. Yeah. Which album would you say out of your entire discography is the most true to what you think the band does best? Maybe Little Queen because it has Ride of Me, Go On Cry and Barracuda and it's got good ballads and it's got kick-ass rockers, you know. Yeah. Do you remember where the photograph for the cover of Little Queen was taken? Yeah, it was taken in Elysian Park in LA. And they took us to Western Costumers and got the gypsy clothes. In fact, I was wearing my own clothes that day, but everybody else was dressed up like a gypsy and rented a gypsy painted wagon and a goat and a horse and all all this stuff and set up a scene.

31:40What were you listening to at that time? So that came out in 77. What was on the radio? What were you into? Wow, 77. Still listening to Elton John, listening to Steely Dan, listening to Moody Blues and Rolling Stones. It's all kinds of cool things, you know. You grew up having hootenannies in your house, playing instruments with family, singing songs. And then later, when you lived in Seattle, you would have these big parties and have a lot of the people who became like the all-stars of the grunge movement over and just jam and have fun and play. Around that time in the 70s, were you doing anything like that playing with other musicians?

32:25We were mostly playing with the members of the band. Up in Canada, we didn't know a whole lot of other musicians. It was different back then. We were kind of, we were the party and we would have more fun just jamming together on stage, off stage. It really didn't matter. We'd jam in the living room and then pack up and go out to the club and jam there, you know? Yeah. And at that point, so the late 70s, did you foresee a long career for the band or was it sort of, you know, day by day? How were you thinking about the band's future? Oh, we definitely had a five-year plan. I mean, our manager would not let us get out of bed without a five-year plan.

33:14But it was good because it made sense. It wasn't just ambition. It was more about, okay, we've gone this far. Now we've got these songs. What else can we make? We've got Crazy on You. We've got Barracuda. We've got all these songs that are great. now what, you know. What did you do to stir up ideas for inspiration for writing songs once those big hits were out and established? Yeah, I think that many of our songs start from the music. And then once I, Nancy and I, or just me, hear the music, it suggests something. And then we start writing words. And then suddenly, lo and behold, you have a song, you know.

34:05Do you prefer to be by yourself at that point, or do you like to be sitting with the other musicians? Writing words, I like to be by myself, no doubt about it. But jamming, you have to be with other people. You have your ideas, and they have their ideas, and how do they mix, and you spark ideas off each other. And you can tell when you hit on something, and it's great. Would people in the band give you feedback on your lyrics? say like, ah, maybe this line should be tweaked a little bit? Occasionally. How would you take that as a writer? Well, if they did that, I would say, and what would you put in its place?

34:45And if they had a good suggestion, I'd go, okay, we'll use that maybe. If they didn't have a good suggestion, I'd say, shut up. not literally shut up but but just we'll keep it my way until you think of something better you know yeah after the first initial band disbanded people left and there was a new iteration of the group was that really heartbreaking for you or did you have hope that we can create something new and move on. It's hard to describe what it was like when that lineup disbanded, other than to say that we couldn't get along anymore, and things got really difficult between us, you know.

35:35It seemed like the thing that made Hart unusual, which was men and women working together as equals, was breaking down. And that very thing was the thing that was driving us apart from each other. We would just squabble and write down gender lines. It would just be really difficult. The men gossiping about the girls and the girls gossiping about the men. And it didn't help that, you know, Nancy and I never looked that fondly on the whole world of groupies and having to explain to the band wives, no, nothing goes on out there, you know. lie to them all the time and it just got to be weird you know.

36:19When you reformulated the band and then bring in more men did it feel like things are going to end up differently this time or did it seem like maybe it'll kind of play out in the same way? Yeah well I always go into every new iteration of the band totally optimistically because the world is full of good people and just because you play out your relationship with some people doesn't mean you don't have one with others and we've been really fortunate to play with some great musicians over the years men and women and it's not really important to us to me or to Nancy and I which gender it is It really isn't.

37:05It's just who can do the job? Who's a great player? Who's a great singer? Who's a great writer? We worked with Holly Knight and Debbie Sher and Denny Carmasi on drums, just some amazing players. But we never again encountered the same kind of emotional hardship we did with that first lineup. I think it was because we all started out, we were poor and destitute, and then we had all this success, and there was all this money that came in, and money changes everything, you know, and everybody gets kind of different. Do you think they started to resent you because you were the front person and getting a lot of attention, and Nancy and you were getting a lot of attention?

37:51Yeah, there was some of that because they were out, the men in the band were out there working just as hard as us and putting their bodies on the line too. But yet whenever we did an interview, Nancy and I were the only ones that got talked to and got all the attention, you know, and there's nothing much that we could do about it. It's just how it was. And it really hurt the men's feelings and made them angry. So I don't blame him at all, really. Yeah, it's understandable. Yeah. Are you still in touch with the old members from the original lineup? Yeah. We saw them just a couple months ago when we played in Seattle.

38:33They all showed up. Super cool. Yeah. And then moving into the 80s, that was when you started the record label. When you signed to Capitol, started bringing in professional songwriters. Yes. How was that for you as a songwriter and as somebody who had been the face of this band for so long? Yeah, I went back and forth on it. It depended on the song. For instance, I thought These Dreams was a really great song. Just a beautiful song that fit Nancy's voice just perfect. It was the ideal marriage, you know. But some of the other songs that came our way that we did during the 80s, I thought didn't have much substance and were pretty calculated.

39:19They were just different versions of what was being played on the radio. Right. Already. And I wasn't that fond of that because, you know, I was there at the beginning when we had all this beautiful idealism about being poets and all that. Are you glad now looking back that you did it even though you were fundamentally opposed to it at certain times about what you were singing? Are you glad you tried it and stuck with it? Sure, yeah. It was a good experience, and it did teach me a lot about songwriting. Just the basic lesson of you don't tax people's attention span. You just don't get all selfish and just go, well, this is my vision.

40:08Like, you want to talk directly to them, you know, and connect with them. And that's what a lot of those songs in the 80s had. It was a good lesson. I love those songs. Yeah, some of them are cool. Super cool. And I bet the crowd loves them when you play them live. Yeah. Like we used to do a Lisa Del Bello song called Wait for an Answer that moves through five keys and everything. And it's just amazingly powerful song. and that taught me so much about how you can have a very simple idea and just repeat it, only take it up a key and then up another key, up another key, and it just changes meaning every time you go up.

40:54With these dreams, is that the song that you said you can't sing for whatever reason? There's something about that song that you've tried it in karaoke and you can't sing it? I don't sound that good on these dreams. The times I've tried it at karaoke, yeah, it's just, there's something about it that's, I feel awkward singing it, and I sound awkward, but that's Nancy's song. Do you still not sing All I Want to Do? We haven't done that for a long time. Is it going to come back out? I don't think so. There's a lot cooler stuff that we can bring out than that. That song had a big influence on my, it was very eye-opening as a young girl.

41:39Yeah, and just not in a very cool way, but now I'm being my mother, you know? That's my mother talking. We have to take another quick break, and then we'll be back with more from Leah Rose and Ann Wilson. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at an Oocla speed test, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage.

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45:00Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. we're back with the rest of leah rose's conversation with ann wilson in your book you talked about some of the compromises you made in the 80s were a devil's bargain what you were wearing the types of songs you were performing how did you manage to push past that era oh you you just live one breath after another you know you just keep on going and And I always believed in heart. I always believed that we would emerge from that and that we would come up again and be writing our own type of music about the things we wanted to write about and that people would like them.

45:45Maybe not on the same massive level, but on a level. Does that matter to you if as someone who as a musician has experienced both the massive arena level and then also you do a lot of small shows that are very intimate. As a songwriter, as a musician, as a singer, does it matter to you or is all that matters is just performing? When I'm doing it, it's all that matters is just the performing. I think other people care more about the level of success than I do. You know, I've been accused of not caring enough about writing commercial songs. and I admit I'm guilty. I just want to write lovely songs.

46:31I want to write cool stuff. Are you writing right now? Yeah, I am. And I'm just about to go down to Nashville and hang out with the trip sitters and write some more songs. What about the lovemongers? Are they ever going to get back together? Oh, lovemongers, yeah. Now, that was a vocal group. Yeah. That was some gorgeous vocals. I don't know. I hope so. That was a fun band. It was really fun. So that was Nancy, yourself, and your old friend, Sue? Uh-huh, and our other friend, Frank Cox. Frank has a beautiful tenor voice, and I was playing bass and singing. So we had really good three-part harmonies, and we could do whatever we wanted.

47:19we didn't do much heart stuff. We used the lovemongers as an escape from heart for a while. After the 80s, we went into lovemonger land for a while and just did whatever we wanted. Is that around the time that you were back in Seattle and starting to hang out with some of the musicians that were coming up then? Yeah. And oddly enough, a lot of those musicians that were part of the Seattle community then loved the lovemongers and we loved them and we'd all show up at each other's shows. And it didn't matter that it was at this little club. It really didn't matter. It was just about the music and about playing camaraderie.

48:06You've said that musicians from Seattle aren't just going to be nice about a song because you're sitting there playing it. They're really honest about their feedback. Yes, they are. Yeah. Can you remember a time where you had an interaction with a Seattle musician and you're just like, oh. Yeah. Jerry. Jerry Cantrell. He told me on a number of occasions, it was one of the ballads, the more commercial ballads from the 80s. Maybe it was all I want to do. But he just said to me, that is such bullshit. That is such bullshit. Now, Barracuda, that's great. That's the shit, you know. And you're like, I agree with you.

48:50I agree with you. When everybody would come over to your house and play at those parties, how does that happen? Like people start out drinking and then eventually people pick up instruments and are just playing songs? Or what was the scene like? Well, I was no fool. I would always have, in my living room, I'd have guitars laying around, casually, you know, laying around, and a piano and a couple of little amps. Usually it would happen after somebody's concert, and everyone would show up for the concert, and then whoever was free afterward would show up at my house, and they'd all come in and start drinking beers and smoking ciggies and sitting up on my counters, and then pretty soon somebody would start to play.

49:44What do you remember being played then, and who do you remember being there? I remember one time John Waits was there. Lane Staley, the Pearl Jam guys, the Artists of Spoon Band, Chris Cornell and Kim Thale, all them. What was it like singing with Chris Cornell? Beautiful. He's like one of those naturals, like he comes from a musical family too. And not only did I know Chris, I knew his sister, Maggie, who's a great singer too. So it was easy as pie to sing with Chris. Beautiful voice. Yeah. Was there ever any stories about Jimi Hendrix, another Seattle musician? Like, was he part of the Laura at all?

50:32I never met Jimi myself, but I did go and poke my head into Jimi's apartment one time. How did that happen? When he lived in Seattle, when he was just a young guy before he blew the coop, you know. Yeah, just I was going to art college and somebody wanted to go pick up some weed or something and we stopped at this little apartment and they went, look around, this is a famous apartment, you know. I mean, the people who were living there then were not Jimmy, but look around, this place has much vibe, you know. Yeah, trying to feel the vibe of Jimmy. That's so cool. What stands out in your mind when you think about the 70s or 80s?

51:19What was the biggest rock star moment that you had once the band started to pick up notoriety? Where you maybe looked at Nancy like, whoa, this is big time. As time goes along, you meet just about everybody. They usually end up just being people, but that doesn't mean they're disappointing. meeting met a lot of cool people and some who yes were just folks you know yeah you think they're going to be like so grand and everything and then they're just like hey hi how are you well I know that there was stories about you hanging out with Stevie Nicks that's always seemed like oh yeah a cool thing she jumped on her plane for a few days we had a number one record that that's what it was that was the magnetism and we were playing in san francisco she came out to the show and got up on stage with us and with grace slick to sing on what about love and after the show she said gee i kind of hate to say goodbye to you guys where you going next and we said well we're going to phoenix and it just so happened that stevie has another house in Phoenix.

52:32So she got on our plane the next day and we all went out to Phoenix and went to her house and hung out after our show. And that was an eye opener. It was cool because she's everything she says. I mean, she's a white witch. I mean, she's definitely got her self-image down and together. She's very smart, super creative. Did you get to sing with her at all? Just when she got up on stage with us. Okay. So when you're hanging out, you didn't sit around saying and... No, we mostly listened to each other talk. I don't know. You don't have that much to say, really, that you don't all feel as a group because you are all going through the same experiences.

53:23How was that for you coming home in between stops on tour when you would go home and see your parents and see your older sister Lynn? Was it hard to relate to them and sort of come down from being on the road? Yeah, everyone tells you that you've changed and that you're faking it. You're not the same person. You know, like everyone's always really disappointed in you because you're living on this big inflated level. But that's how it gets when you're out on those big tours like that. You live in a bubble of safety and security. And you're protected from people just because, for one, you don't want to get sick.

54:02and for two, some people can be dangerous. So you have to have protection from all of that, you know, and you get used to it and you go home and you're kind of like, don't come near me, you know. Yeah, I imagine you need a couple of weeks to kind of reformulate. Yes, indeed. Does that take a lot of mental preparation for you to be removed from your space, from your home and know you'll be sort of a nomad? It takes a lot of relaxation out there. That's the main thing for me is just to relax enough to have fun with it and not get all freaked out about not being home and being tired or whatever. Like the things that are hard about touring, which is the travel.

54:50Are you traveling on buses mostly when you're in the U.S.? Yes, on buses. However, over in Europe, they don't do that anymore because the European Union is broken up. So you can't just go from country to country on a bus. You have to go through customs and all that. The bus can't leave the country, you know. So it's much more complex now over there. After taking the five-year break from touring with Hart, how did you and Nancy come back together? Why did you decide to tour now? It was time. There was no longer any reason to hold off on it. I spent pretty much all of last year touring with Trip Sitter, and we did 100 shows in seven months.

55:36I thought, well, the time is right. Let's see if we can bring back the big guns. And she was into it. We had some negotiations to do, who was going to be in the band, what type of a show we're going to do. But we came to understandings and all that. I was looking through your Instagram and I saw that you have some scattered posts about meditation and quotes from Ram Dass and other things. When you're talking about relaxation before the shows, what are some techniques that you use to get into a good headspace? I like to listen to music that is meditational, that's based around a drone, you know, just calming down that way, breathing.

56:20I don't want to build up. I want to chill down before a show. So I walk out there completely calm and collected. And so those are the main things is just relax into it. And then when you make that transition from backstage to stepping out on stage in an arena filled with people, filled with energy, is it hard to make that switch for you? Well, it depends on how tired I am, I guess. If it's a good night and everything's clicking and I feel good, then it's not hard. But if something's gone on or, you know, something's wrong within the band, like someone's sick or something like that, it's a little harder to go out there with all the engines thrusting.

57:07At what point in the tour would you say is the best to see Hart? Would it be in the beginning parts of the tour, the middle, the latter end? Oh, that's impossible to say. I think it's different every tour. I don't know how this band is going to develop because it really is like a development over a tour. You go out and you're fresh out of rehearsal and everything's just all perfect and then you start to open up like a big flower. Yeah. And you figure out where it is that the audience and yourself really connect and grow with those places. So if you see us halfway through the tour, it's going to be different than the first couple nights.

57:54Yeah. Do you have the same set list every show or does the set list change? It will change. We have a bunch of stuff worked out that we can interchange whenever we like. and sometimes we're writing so things can just be popped in. So yeah, it'll change definitely. Is there any sort of preview you can give us about what type of show it will be? It's going to look beautiful. It is going to be a combination of heart songs, no covers, all heart songs, and a couple of new songs, a new Nancy song and a new Anne song. Tell me about the last thing you've written that you're really excited about. Oh, I just got through making an album with TripSitter that is called Another Door and came out so good.

58:47That is what I'm really proud of right now because I was the sole lyric writer on all the songs and it really taught me a lot. I learned a lot about how to do it and just when to edit myself and when not to, you know, that's so important. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk today. Nice to talk to you. Thank you.

59:27to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast where you can find all of our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Toleday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.

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