Heavy MakeUp

33:45You actually really establish characters in these songs. And I think that's one of the strongest songs for that. But all the songs have, like, I don't think, oh, this is the innermost thoughts of Edie Brackel. I think, wow, she's made a character here while you're improvising, which I found really impressive. Do you put yourself, are you putting yourself in a different role? Are you thinking consciously of that? I'm not thinking consciously of any of it. I'm just trusting what comes and letting it lead me. okay i'll i'll put it another way which is uh you are also a a are you a tony winning uh broadway no no we uh but but no we were tony nominated okay you're tony nominated and then you're of hamilton thank you well that was oh my god yeah you did really well uh no no i mean no there was just no chance that for for for any of us uh that yeah that That was so spectacular.

34:50But you did Bright Star. We did so much fun. But that was writing in, in that case, it was writing in characters, very strong characters. Yeah. Did that kind of help with this kind of work? You know what? Yeah, you made me understand that it did because I hadn't really thought about that before. But what I did recognize during that time period was how much I loved writing for a character and then hearing these people sing and really the people who love to perform, like Carmen and everybody who loves to perform, to getting to hear them sing those character songs felt really good. So you're right, and it does take you out of yourself and my feelings.

35:37And that feels better because, again, it's just colorful. But also, they seemed like, not all of them, but they seemed like New York stories to me. And I think people can tell from your accent that you're not from New York. Yeah. You know, I often think about doormen because I love all the doormen at our building in New York. And I lived there for a while, you know. And I see that they see births and people coming in with new babies. And then they see people leaving covered under sheets. and anyway, they entered into that song in a playful way, I think. And there was a lot of funny characters in elevators, too.

36:24I think what you're saying is you lived in a nicer building than I lived in when I lived in Manhattan. Not the six-floor walk-up. After this last break, we'll be back with the rest of Bruce Hedlum's conversation with Heavy Makeup. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at an Oocla speed test, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage.

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40:15Terms apply. We're back with the rest of Bruce's conversation with Edie Brackel, CJ Camareri and Trevor Hagen of Heavy Makeup I want to ask all of you how you all got to this point and I will start with you Edie which is, I know you grew up in Dallas Was your family musical? They weren't professional musicians but they sang all the time Both my mom and my dad My dad had a very sweet soft voice and my mother just sang all the time She was a working woman who sang to bring joy into her life. Every morning getting ready for work, in the car on the way to work, taking us to school. She just sang all the time.

40:56And what did she sing? Everything. Everything that she loved. She was crazy about B.B. King and she used to sort of imitate B.B. King. She could make that face that he makes. It was really fun. She sang, oh boy. And she looked and sang a lot like Aretha Franklin when she danced. So, and then she would flip it to a country sensation and she would sing, one of her favorite songs is He Stopped Loving Her Today. She would play that over and over. So, you know, it was varied, but mostly R &B or dance for her. Interesting. And was there a song, either one your mom sang or one you heard on the radio that just made a really early impact on you that said, no, no, music's for me?

41:51Oh, Nothing From Nothing. I loved that song. That was one of my first. And Superstition. Those I bought. Those were my first singles that I ever bought. But I love that piano part in Nothing From Nothing. Billy Preston. Yeah. Oh, amazing. Back when you could buy 45s. That was so great. wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Trevor, can I ask you the same question? Was there an early song, an impression of music that just grabbed you? You know, my real, I think, love for music came through jazz and through people like Thelonious Monk, Charles Menges, and Miles Davis. I think those, and that's probably the case for a lot of, you know, jazz heads out there, but I think jazz also introduced me to a whole, you know, two different social relations in the South to like a whole different set of histories of people and sounds.

42:50So, but of course, Monk is, I mean, I'm not sure if I can say a particular song, but it was always Monk, Miles and Mingus. And then later, Louis Armstrong and Ellington. But I think jazz for me was also a way to really find a sense of belonging as like a kid. You're just, you know, I could play in a jazz band. I had friends who were really into jazz. We'd learn about jazz. So really it was kind of an opportunity to also make friends because I wasn't playing sports. I wasn't on a basketball team or a football team or something. So I really had a strong social connection with music growing up, where it was also a way of how I was even spending time with my friends.

43:29It's funny you mention Mingus because particularly his stuff is not, it seems close in spirit a little bit to what you guys are doing, which is it's a group improvisation. And his group is so solid that way. It's not the you take a solo, then I take a solo, then it's much more ensemble based. Absolutely. And even playing a lot of, I know, and CJ also played a lot of big band stuff. I mean, if you're a trauma player at some point, you're always playing big band stuff. But I got to experience a lot of chance to play a lot of Ellington as well. and so Ellington and Mingus you are going between these very beautifully composed pieces with timbres of you know a jazz band but then having solos coming out and telling a story through composition but also improvisation so yeah all of really those I think that energy was always it still is very important to me I still like have a lot of value in music in that way CJ can I ask you the same you what what was like was there an early song early memory on the radio something that said oh yeah that's for me you know for me it happened later i i started playing piano when i was four years old because my dad my dad was a musician he was a middle school band director and so i heard him teaching piano lessons at the house all the time and from the time i could talk just begging him to let me start doing it you know like I music was inside me and and you know you know from a from a super young age and I started playing trumpet when I was seven or eight and I was obsessed with it I mean I was a kid that was like 12 years old practicing six hours a day of the trumpet and like you know I knew I wanted to be a professional trumpet player and I just didn't know what that meant and what music that would be and it all the way through college.

45:22I went to Juilliard, got a degree in classical trumpet, even though when I got there, I wanted to be a jazz musician. And the first gig I played out of college was totally a free jazz gig. And I just really didn't know what kind of music I wanted to make until I was in a van. I'll never forget it. On my way to Buffalo, New York to play a totally free gig with this great trombone player named Peter Evans and a bass player named Mapa Elliott, trombone player named David Taylor and they put on Sufjan Stevens, come on, feel the Illinois record. And it was, there's so many awesome trumpet parts and woodwind parts and string parts on that, but it was in the context of these songs that just had so much life and spirit to them.

46:06And I was like, that's what I want to do. That's how I want to like use these skills I've been working at with no real idea on how and where to apply them. So I was just, I became obsessed with like finding my way into Sufjan Stevens' band. And that became sort of like the catalyst for my whole career. I'll never forget that moment of going to play a totally free jazz gig and hearing these simple poppy folk songs. Not simple, but these really catchy beautiful songs that had these trumpet melodies on them. And it was just really that was it for me. Yeah, it's like the, it's not the outro, but the end of the Andrew Jackson and songs got that great trumpet bit and but it's interesting were you not interested in pop music at all before that no um i uh never never really connected to me i was i was raised like pretty conservative christian when i was young so we didn't listen to a lot of popular music um but i was jazz i was obsessed with like like operating the instrument so i was really obsessed with jazz from a like learn every clifford brown solo and every louis armstrong solo and just with classical music from it like learn the parts let you know learn this like expand your skill set i knew i yeah like i said i wanted to be i didn't sort of know that the trumpet could have this life outside of those two really kind of you know institutionalized genres that's amazing um did did anything at juilliard prepare you for this experience no uh that's not true chamber music we i really i always i always was involved in chamber music and this is like chamber music on the like highest highest highest level because you're improvising but you're improvising as a group trying to make these songs and trusting each other and communicating with your eyes you know a lot of like you know the cues that you use in chamber music uh and yeah and trusting each other you know i know that they're going to start this at the right tempo and then i'm going to be able to add my part into that and they're not going to play too soft because then i'll sound too loud and all these like chamber music skills you learn in college so definitely definitely and i also had an amazing teacher when i was at juilliard who kind of like made sure i was prepared for anything that came my way okay that wasn't a shot at juilliard i want to be clear i mean i could take some shots no no no although my brothers at east So you just have to, you know, it's a little competitive.

48:34You know what, though? When you said, when you discovered your music, I think I, listening to them, I realized what you meant. When I got older, when I was young, what I heard on the radio were those two first favorite songs, Superstition and Nothing from Nothing. They were my first favorite song. But when I went out and started looking for music, when I found Duke Ellington and Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys, I thought this is, I love this music. And I would often put it on to bring sunshine into my kitchen when I was raising the kids. That's the music that made me happiest. Okay. Trevor, I was really interested in something you once wrote about the trumpet.

49:21which was, I hope you don't regret writing this, but I'm going to say it anyway, which is, and I don't remember your phrase, but essentially the martial element of the trumpet, the role of trumpet in war, is something, I think I'm actually mixing it up with a phrase from one of the songs, but it's in the trumpet's DNA, essentially. I mean, absolutely. I remember this very, very well. I mean, I got my first flugelhorn, I was playing it, and it was like a French maker called Cuinon and somehow I figured out that this, by like you can see how the design of the writing and everything like this, you could trace it back to like maybe late 1890s France and you're like, wow, this flugelhorn was probably used in the French Algerian war and this was like a standard issue for the French military and here I am with this piece of metal on my face and somehow that whole connection to what this instrument was made for in society, in the world, really hit me very hard, where I'm like, I'm playing this military instrument.

50:22This was used to communicate on battlefields across long distances. And all of a sudden, this whole other energy of the instrument kind of started to show its face to me. And I think I just kind of took that and ran with it a little bit with how I was even playing the instrument or approaching it and how to think about discourse and appropriate or not appropriate ways of playing it and what this instrument has been throughout history. And it still is kind of crazy. CJ and I will both be playing trumpet or these two military instruments inside. But you can play them very softly and beautifully, but there's still that element where this is like a caged beast or something like this, but you can really open it up if you want to.

51:08And those are kind of some, not unknown territories, but one that's not seen as much anymore with the trumpet, I think. And we hear it a lot as their association of the more biblical heralding aspect of it, the beauty aspect of it. And so there's these two sides to it that are both kind of fun to play with, conceptually. I'm interested because I came to this album with certain expectations of electronic music. And it's not that I don't like electronic music. Certainly when I was growing up in the 80s, there was a lot of like the early electropop and some of it I thought was terrific. But to me, its DNA is kind of cold and technological and a little bit scary, I guess.

52:02um it doesn't feel that way in this record but i'm just wondering how you felt about using these instruments with this uh in this way i mean i think for me i i i know exactly what you're what you mean that's good because i said it terribly no no no you're not completely no it's good i i think that i i i don't want to speak for driver but i think that both of us coming from this instrument that's you know you're thinking melodies and you're thinking uh textures when when we're approaching these other instruments these electronic instruments drum machines and you're we're the same musicians our formative time was spent playing melodies and finding these melodic paths through musical challenges and uh when we improvise we improvise searching for melodies and so i think that that's one thing that hopefully has made it so seamless working with Edie, who's literally searching for a melody is, you know, when I play chords, I'm thinking melodically, I'm not really feeling, you know, harmonic movement like a guitar player would, or like a, someone who only plays piano.

53:06Um, and I feel the same way about the way Trevor uses beats. It's musical. It's from, you know, it's from the song first, right? We try to initially inspire an idea by putting out a fresh new sound for Edie. And we see your imagination go, We see the light bulb go off. And then we're there. You were using these instruments, but we're using them to support a song. Right. We're not using them to hurt anyone. Yeah, exactly. Although the album starts with a really great drum sound on Shoe in the Air. And I was hoping those were real drums, but they're not. No, they're all those. I mean, the texture sounds real, but those are all different sounds and different kits that I kind of prepare.

53:53Or I don't know, like, you know, just finding sounds that all kind of go together and they kind of play off each other. And it's fun to think about a drum kit because you don't have to on a drum machine, but you do. So you're making sounds that kind of help each other, I guess. So I think even just, you know, and for some reason that and also enough running around, they just needed that kind of low tom. They just needed that sound that's kind of hard to find in like, let's say, electronic drum sounds. No, I thought it was really, and there's something very effective about when electric sounds approximate instruments but don't quite get there.

54:36I'm thinking of like those early, you know, if you think of those David Bowie songs that had a lot of Mellotron on it, I always find that sound just heartbreaking because it's not strings. Instead, it's this weird tape machine, which I gather was impossible to use. But it's got this, it has this different effect than strings. Totally. And there'll be times, I mean, just going through and finding sounds that maybe appeal to you and, you know, as CJ said too, finding different sounds on a keyboard. And those are, you know, it's just one of the fun parts of playing electronic music is just, you can really dig into different sounds and shape them in a way that's really kind of this, what do you want to call it, a self-reflexive aesthetic technique where you're like, oh, this sound really appeals to me.

55:19I can tweak it and find it, and you're not really locked in. I think we just kind of really spent a lot of time finding nice palettes of sounds we'd like to hear together, and those did come away from, I think, a more dark electronic sound, and with Edie's melodies and lyrics, they kind of all helped shape the sound together where it's not hopefully cold or distressing, which sometimes electronic music can fall into. Trevor mixed it in a certain way and that really helped all of these sounds not be painful and serve these songs. And we also ran it through an old soundboard which gave it a lot of depth and some of the tracks we put through a tape machine.

56:06And so we really tried to kind of balance all of these different elements. A song, and I gather it's the single, is Wait For It, which I really love. And what I mentioned earlier about the contrast between the electronic instruments and Edie's voice, I think that's one of the best examples on the record. Can you talk about making that, Edie? It's basically the same thing that happened before. They just played this very inspiring piece of music, and I just started singing, you know, wait for it. I just started having fun. And then it just flowed out. And all I can say is that they're very, very inspiring.

56:53And so I sing when I'm inspired. Are you one of those singers? Do you have a picture in your head when you're singing? Or is it just... Sometimes I do.

57:06But sometimes it's just a musical phrase. That one does start with, wait for it. So then it's just the sense of that melody, that da-da-da, da-da-da, da-da-da, da-da-da, just playing, you know, and just noticing, okay, that's what the phrase wants to be, and it wants to be repeated. It just happens so fast, it's hard to explain. You just go with it. And then after you say that a couple of times, you realize, well, I can't just say this over and over and over, so now what do I do? and then if you're waiting for something oh here it comes and you just like I said but that wasn't even a conscious decision it's just one thing leads to another and you just you just go and then when those guys listen back to it later I guess you know he Trevor will edit it and send it back and you hear that that idea was realized.

58:10Was that a song you had to add additional lyrics to or it all came from the first session? Yeah, that all came out. And I think the phrasing on that is kind of weird too. It's not like something I would consciously write. And so, yeah, you just go in and try to get a good vocal take of it if there was an edit in there. And if there was one, yeah, or if it was not articulated well. Like I remember on the first record, I couldn't tell what I was saying in one of the things. I said, what is that? It's just a sound. And Trevor said, I think you're saying pivot. I was like, oh, I like it. Okay. So that kind of thing can happen where it's not, you don't have clarity, so you have to listen to the context of the song and the content and then go in and plug something in.

59:12But I don't know if we did on that or not. No, that's the song we kept every lyric from the improv. But I think you re-sang it, but I think you changed the act just one word, like a hymn to a his or something something that was like oh right yeah i guess it is bat stent or yo some kind of little like the tiniest edit yeah yeah i mean what you're hearing is what happened so cj you said you don't think harmonically when you were writing for this album particularly you're not that kind of player um a lot of the uh because these were pop songs and a lot of the sort of the harmony seems like pop music.

59:56I mean that in a nice way, of course. But two songs to me sounded, and I could be totally wrong, they almost sounded like R &B songs. How many times and so emotional. Can you tell me about those songs? Because they to me, I can't take a lot of these songs out of the context of how you guys created them. But those are songs I think, wow. like Al Green could do a great job with this. There are different kinds of songs. Were they, can you, anybody describe just writing those? Those of those were kind of reactions to the beats Trevor started with, you know? So like he'll start, you know, a beat with all of his various tools and, you know, something will feel like, yeah, feel Motown-y.

1:00:47I mean, I do think harmonically, but I'm not thinking like, oh, wouldn't it be cool to go to a four chord here? I'm usually thinking like, you know, the voice leading, you know, thinking about the voice leading in a melodic sense, because I know I can trust that rather than just sort of like only thinking functionality of chords. But yeah, I mean, like for me, I think that, you know, due to the reality of how we make these songs and that it starts from a BPM, if I start an idea before Trevor's started the beat, he then has to like tap the tempo and figure out what tempo I'm playing a thing at.

1:01:27And it's super clunky. So it usually starts with him. So I'm usually reacting to what Trevor's done. And then Edie's, you know, sort of like reacting to the sum of the parts that we create. Okay. And that's just kind of how we've done our setup and how we're kind of all connected and just kind of how, yeah, Not how it has to happen, but we're working with things kind of connected through MIDI. And so just having a little bit of process helps just get it going. I wish we could do it for you now. I really do. It would be so much fun. That might be tricky over Zoom, though, right? Yeah. The latency of Zoom is just brutal.

1:02:09Yeah. Well, the next time I see you, we'll do it. It's an amazing project. What is next for it?

1:02:18that's a very good question yeah fame and fortune mostly um yeah no we're gonna you know we're the record comes out june 28th and we're really excited about that we have beautiful colored final like different colors and uh it really looks great and um and we're super proud of it we're going to uh play some shows opening for bruce hornsby in the fall um he was a long time supporter of various projects we've all done and uh we did this past fall we did some shows where we just improv shows well we did two sets the first set was songs and the second set was just fully improvised songs and uh it was pretty thrilling to do that in front of the live audience and so we're gonna hopefully do do a lot more of that what's what's what's an audience's reaction to that?

1:03:07I think it's weird and it's hard to, unless people can feel it, it's hard to help people understand that it's happening right now. Because although somebody pointed out that people do that in hip hop, right? They have those. Freestyle. Yeah, they'll do that. And so people do this all the time. That's the tricky part is having people understand that it's right here. It's right now. And sometimes people can think, who knows? It's just hard to convey that. or you could do the trick of it and say, okay, if you want to be sure that you're involved in this or it's happening now, write down an idea or a song suggestion and you can pull that out of the hat and you can do that.

1:04:06It makes you feel like you're proving something though and it has less to do with inspiration. But it can be done and we have done that. But I always feel a little silly doing that just to show that, yes, that's what it is. That way it feels a little bit like you're doing a trick, right? You do it, you know, it's a little gimmicky. That's a comedy improv. You know, it's funny. We'll say to a crowd, like, these are the first set of songs we wrote, you know, and it's the way we write. And now we're going to do this completely improvised, whatever. And somebody will just say, like, what's the first one?

1:04:42Is that one from your record? You know, we're like, no, no, we didn't. But I think it's just so uncommon, right? Even when you go and you see a jazz group improvise, right? They start with a song that they know that's usually a standard or something that the main artist wrote, right? They start with something. And so I think you're really not used to seeing people start with zero, right? We don't talk about any aspect. We don't talk about like BPMs or that we're going to get the arc of the speed of the songs or the tonality. We don't talk about anything. and so I think it's just so uncommon in this you know the hip hop is a different context but even that like the music behind the improvisations the improvised lyrics is pre-planned you know this is really just so I think it's just you know you train an audience right you get people on board just by talking about it and by just got to keep doing it you know but you know pop music works in part because of repetition.

1:05:46You know, that's what gives people that satisfying sense that you're coming back to the theme at the end. And we might be scaring people off this album the way we're talking about it. I hope not. But these feel like realized pop songs. They have a, what would I say, like the sort of topography of a song. They build up. A couple of them sort of start in a little bit of chaos, and then there's this huge build, and they end in a little bit of chaos. But it's all, this isn't like free-form jazz that your friend is doing that is just torture to listen to. It's improvised pop songs, and I think that's what's so hard, maybe I found so hard to get my head around.

1:06:31As much as I was enjoying it, I was like, well, how is this improvised? I don't get this. This feels like a pop song. If you give me, maybe I could try it. If you want to give me any, any of the first image or thought, a thought or a theme or some anything. I don't have to get, this is not a party trick. If you guys want to start something, you. But just so you'll, you'll get a sense that that's what happens. Maybe, maybe as a you, the other person in the room, maybe now it's a four, four member band because you're inspiring the song. Okay. What, what, what kind of notion, what kind of notion would you like?

1:07:08See, I don't want that. I want you to feel what you're feeling or what image came to you or what anything, anything at all. Easy. Want to be a part of it? Let's do it. All right. Sailboat. Sailboat. Sailboat. Hey. Cast the sail and hope the wind blows. Let's get on your little sailboat. Ride the waves, ride the waves with me Cast the sail and hope the wind blows Let's get on your little sailboat Ride the waves, ride the waves with me Hey, Brucie, don't you want to go in the cymbal that you told me to sing about. Ooh, yeah, ooh, yeah, ooh, yeah. Don't you want to roll in the cymbal that you told me to sing about.

1:08:14Ooh, yeah, ooh, yeah, ooh, yeah. Here comes the wind. Let's do it again. How about that? That was fantastic. That was great. You also sang, you had backup singers that were also you. That was unbelievable. That was fantastic. It's fun. Do you see how fun it is? I am so in awe of that. I cannot tell you. That is so completely different than anything I could ever imagine doing. Oh. Well, I'm glad. Thank you. I love it. And I love playing with these guys because they're geniuses. They make it so much fun and we just play off each other in this same way that you and I just played off of your idea.

1:09:07Well, I'm getting a sense of how much they must love playing with you because that was fantastic. Just amazing. Thank you all so much. What a great thrill to meet all of you and do this. Well, to re-meet you, Edie, but it was really great and great album. I hope everybody listens to it. Thank you so much. Just nod Taylor Swift right off the top of the charts. That'd be all right. You don't want to do that. She touches so many people's hearts. Oh, I don't mean that against Taylor Swift at all. In particular, my niece got to go for her 13th birthday. It was a big thing. They sent videos, and I kind of got choked up because it was a stadium of all these girls her age just singing their hearts out, and I thought, that's worth something.

1:09:59Yeah, that's a beautiful thing.

1:10:29of our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Toleday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats.

1:11:07I'm Justin Richmond.

1:11:13The more you learn about your favorite artists, the more you want to know. Claude helps you keep digging, finding new threads and rabbit holes to explore. Whether it's discovering deeper meaning behind a detail in an interview or figuring out the influence behind an artist's particular era. Claude thinks with you to find the next clue. If you can't get enough of the stories behind your favorite music and artists, Claude will help you discover new layers you didn't know existed. Try Claude for free at claude.ai slash brokenrecord. This episode of Broken Record is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve.

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1:12:24Subject to credit approval, terms apply. You've probably heard me say this. Connection is one of the biggest keys to happiness. And one of my favorite ways to build that, scruffy hospitality. Inviting people over even when things aren't perfect. Because just being together, laughing, chatting, cooking, makes you feel good. That's why I love Bosch. Bosch fridges with VitaFresh technology keep ingredients fresher longer, so you're always ready to whip up a meal and share a special moment. Fresh foods show you care, and it shows the people you love that they matter. Learn more. Visit BoschHomeUS.com.

1:13:01This is an iHeart Podcast.