Interpol's Daniel Kessler

27:44Like, oh, I'm... Yeah. Does that make you nervous to know that he's out there to perform?

27:50Daniel Kessler:You know, the good thing about, I think, being... And I felt this way even as it was unfolding. The good thing about, like, not having things happen too fast as a curve of us where we had these, like, you know, four years and no one wanted to sign us and so forth. I think it helps develop something within you. I feel like a self-preservation, some blinders on your eyes, something that just kind of makes you a little bit solid as far as just focusing on what you can control and just doing your thing. So I don't really recall thinking too, too much about it. I just recall just getting in a moment of just playing music.

28:23Daniel Kessler:I do, you know, what I said, I really do. It feels like really, I'm happy things did not happen too fast for us. I'm happy that it wasn't like we put out a song as like today where you put out something else and it just blows up and you have no time to sort of develop as a musician, as a band, as songwriters and so forth. And then you start overthinking things. I was definitely worried in the early days of overthinking things that would get in the way of me being able to write future songs. And I think having that time to formulate and so forth, that kind of secured something as far as just not thinking about anything when I'm writing.

28:54Daniel Kessler:For instance, I don't think about anything. I don't think about whether people are going to like something or not like something. I just kind of just focus on whether I'm liking it And the world just sort of like, you know, falls to the backdrop. When did you first realize that you wanted to write songs or when did you start writing songs? And what was the inspiration for that? Was there other musical people in your family? Did you know people who were making music? Not really. I think for me, it's like, you know, I have I guess like just music was all such a strong position in my life and in my family.

29:26Daniel Kessler:I have two older brothers. I was born in England. I lived there until six. and my oldest brother somehow was extraordinarily passionate about music. It had this importance. So me and my two brothers, we shared a room, a bedroom together. So it's like I could just, in my first musical memories, just staring at his side of the wall, you know, and just seeing all these like cutouts of like Paul Weller or countless others. Really, he was in the jam fan club, so there's like tons of like jam stuff. So to me, it was almost like this is my first, not even like my first musical memories, my first life memories are staring at this wall waking up and going to sleep and just you know and so to me it's almost like religion you know it's like if people have religious artifacts i'm looking at this and thinking this is really serious and then when i moved to i lived in england till six and then france till i was 11 and then when i moved to washington dc when i was 11 i think just moving there and i was a skateboarder for a while and then i quit doing that and then i started um yeah on the same day i quit skateboarding i i picked up playing guitar and then i started learning how to write songs on my own and that I think I got something out of it as an angst-ridden teenager, just kind of making my own chords and then realizing that I really, when I started trying to write songs and something happened for me emotionally, I felt a little bit better, if that makes any sense.

30:43Daniel Kessler:Just that sort of escape as in writing songs in the middle of the night and feeling a little bit more whole by doing so. When you moved to D.C. when you were 11, did you lock in with the local music scene in D.C. at the time? What was going on musically there? I mean, I was in awe of the music scene. I for sure had a big inspiration. And I think also having come from London and France and these two older brothers who really had a little strong punk rock energy and underground energy that they took really seriously. And I think in that time period, I think, in the UK and in France, when you dress a certain way, it was almost sort of like it meant something.

31:23Daniel Kessler:You're a tribe, yeah. You're a bit of a tribe, and you're also a bit of a target. it was serious for it because other people you encounter other people that weren't of the same tribe like that they could get it could get like sort of like violent and so forth it was really serious in a way that um it's not now it's or it's just very different now so in that sense i think that also is like sort of a seriousness with me too and then moving to dc for sure and also just like being from the skateboarding world you know you start discovering like hardcore i got really into hardcore and the dc and like the discord stuff was a huge yeah that's when i discovered that i was like i mean i don't think i could think of a bigger influence if i had this single one band that had the biggest influence on me as a as a musician and me carving my own path i would say fugazi by far yeah for sure so what was your first band when did you find guys to play with i mean really interpoles really kind of like was the first like serious band like i did high school bands in dc but you know you did a few shows here and there and so forth and it was kind of fun but it's i think it's almost like sets you on the path to like learning how to play live and not being too nervous about it but uh when i moved to new york i really set my my my my goals of finding like uh you know a proper and serious man to play with i heard that you you guys recorded antics like pretty close closely after the first album when it came time to do the third album did you ever experience like oh it's suddenly hard to write new songs observationally i would say it didn't happen i always kind of expected or knew that it could happen you know like i really i knew you know just musical history wise like even like the the sophomore slump and and so forth what people i think those pitfalls are things that i was aware of so i was trying to be mindful like you know so for instance you know as you mentioned album one album two are very close together but that was something that was like i think we were very mindful of like let's start working on album two while we're still touring on on bright lights let's just you know not let's not let's get ahead of all of this like all these sort of cliches or or you know or these these these truths of the music industry let's just like start writing stuff before we can really think about it and so that's why we put those two records also close together because we're quite ready can we just continue to and i think we're naturally progressing as musicians, as songwriters, while we're writing antics.

33:42Daniel Kessler:And so I think, you know, constantly, I've always been mindful of this. So it's strange, like, I think maybe after getting, you know, through those first two records, something sort of just kind of happened naturally. So you just kind of got through a storm and then you stopped thinking about it. And also what I was saying before about those first four years of just no one wanted to sign us. I think that really sort of gave us a gestation period just to be kind of like, even though we'd had changes and we had challenges along the way as band members, I think we still had something kind of solid once we were able to focus on just working on new music.

34:16Daniel Kessler:We never had a big writing drought. We've never been short on ideas. I mean, people's minds could vary. They could be like, well, maybe you should take it a little bit longer or something like that. That's fair. But for us, while we're working on things, I think we got pretty into what we're working on. So for even album three, I think there was maybe a little bit more like things were happening behind the scenes in the band and so forth you know like the natural like challenges of like adults and and um yeah and so forth but i don't think once we were in room writing it was like challenging is you know we might have had like more like conversations about directions and so forth but for the most part i think we always had a strong sense of like chemistry it's just a matter of like maybe which direction you want to go to but even like in album three i you know i was happy with what we're doing for album three you know it's interesting because i feel like maybe at the time i mean it's like a while ago but i feel like at the time people probably or at least certain people i've never like really read much about press and stuff like this i stopped reading press really on like touring on turn on bright lights because it just i don't know i felt like this is not for me to read it's for other people to read you know i mean i don't want my feelings to be wrapped up on this of like anticipation if this is going to be a good review or bad review because it's like wait what can i do now like i can just control writing music recording music and releasing it but apart from that it's like complete out of my hands so i was like oh okay so i'll just let go and it felt as soon as i made that decision it felt like the the right one so but on on album 3 i probably felt like there's probably a little bit of like people not taking to the record which might you know i think sometimes that's just like par for the course when you come in with like a lot of uh attention on your first like you know two records and there's a moment where especially i think back then with like the way the pendulum was like swing i think those things might have happened around album three it's always like there's a natural up and down but sometimes it feels fabricated and it's like people are like chomping at the bit to write that story you know it's like such a crazy instinct that humans have it's weird i mean and you don't want to make excuses because if someone's legitimately like yo i don't think this is a very good record i think like your other stuff's way better that's completely a fair assessment you know that's like the beautiful thing about art it's like everyone has a different opinion and that's like fair no one is really wrong it's a very subjective empathy like fame media whatever you know and and so like but at same time i think sometimes there is like in probably like music popular music criticism this is maybe a little bit of like i'm tired of these guys or i'm tired of this you know versus giving it a real shake i definitely i remember hearing someone come up to me like years later and say like oh yeah i didn't really like album three and i gave it like um not a very good review or something i can't remember the circumstances but you know what i went back and listened to it recently and it's actually pretty good and i was like bro get away from me i'm like i don't know it's like one thing if you as i said if you don't like it i totally get that but it's like i don't know to to do that is not really i feel like you know or if you need a minute maybe get a better assessment of it before you formulate an opinion yeah that's the problem with that job It's like oftentimes you only have a couple of days to listen to the album, to digest it and then to sort of like barf out an opinion.

37:28But you're like you should to that guy. It's like, dude, can you like publish a new story, like an updated opinion?

37:34Daniel Kessler:I mean, you know what? That's actually like not a bad story there, you know, like, you know, but yeah. Yeah. So do I. But do you find as just a fan of music and a listener, like, do you find yourself doing the same thing to other artists or other groups where you listen to something and you like is your first reaction ever just to hate on it? Or do you feel like because you're in the industry, you're just naturally supportive? I don't know if I have one meaning or the other I think it's also different times in your life and different ages in your life you know what I mean like there's like I certainly when I was like a you know late teenager early 20s I think I probably formulate my opinions pretty quickly and yeah in a way that I certainly would not do now or I haven't done in a while but like I think especially when you're like a you know late teenager I do remember when like certain things were blowing up I was already into like a lot of like hardcore kind of stuff when I was in high school or underground kind of stuff and then all of a sudden nirvana becomes like so massive and all these bands become so massive and everyone in your high school like likes you know this music that sounds pretty close to things that you like you become there's like a proprietary like kind of standpoint and you feel like a little bit of crochet upon because this is like one of the elements that set you made you feel a little bit different you know in a way that i think it's very different now than it was then but but when i was a kid then it was like you'd have to really like dig dig dig to get some of the stuff and all of a sudden it became so mainstream and in a very well-earned and exciting way like there was an undeniable and pure like nirvana sounds amazing now to you know when i hear like out there it's like undeniable at that time i think i probably had a hard time hearing it because it was just energy wise there were closer things that i like that i just kind of you know i wanted to keep for myself so it's just like and i i hadn't heard nirvana before they actually really blew up i hadn't heard bleach and so forth but it's like You hear it now and it's like this is an undeniably incredible original band with these songs that are very singular and lyrics that are really one of a kind.

39:36Daniel Kessler:And it's amazing that it actually resonated with popular culture and the masses. It's so unique sounding. And in some ways, it's sounding that would be for so many people. You know what I mean? There's something that's really left of censor. So it's actually, looking back, it's an extraordinarily exciting moment. One last break and we'll be back with Daniel Kessler.

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42:09Daniel Kessler:in some ways it's an amazing feat you know it's like really and i i mean what i say like i never got further than my sort of dream about making album one i feel like it feels so close to me when i think of those um of that feeling somehow i really think about playing um the troubadour it's really strange because i feel like that like when we had those two shows there and playing and everything it was like really like it's it really dawned on me like wow this is really happening right now and there was all those those times not that long ago where people just were showing no interest and like we have these two sold out shows and um but to me i was like wow that that was like my dream and so that was like and i just never anything after that was like bonus it really did like soon after that and then here we are an album eight that's a lot of years of bonus by the way it's like yeah but you know the thing about it is like i guess absolutely and it's like so it's one part of me like that's just really crazy and i guess some ways like lots of life has been lived since then you you know by doing this you know i've gotten to explore the worlds meet people from all over the world have many different life experiences so in that sense it's really the band's giving me so much um but then you make a record like the record we just made or every time we write songs you have this urgency and it's this uh in the songwriting together you have this chemistry and it's kind of undeniable and it's never like it never feels like work it's more of just like you feel it it's like invigorating it's visceral it's like all these things and and in some ways this is there's a commonality because that to like how it was when we first started writing songs and realizing there was this chemistry that hasn't really changed that much.

43:44Daniel Kessler:And that's, again, going back to these things can dissipate. They can just go away and it'd be very understandable because they did. And if it started feeling like a job, then, you know, and so forth. But it's never felt like a job. It's never felt like something. We don't start making records. We feel like we're writing songs because we feel like we need to go do this. We can start touring. We've never thought about those terms. We're still a band and we still write songs together and make records because I feel like it's just a it's just this energy this chemistry is just really like pure energy it's just it's undeniable and it's really gets so much out of it it's passionate and you you feel like you can do something better than what you've done previously but you just feel like this evolution is so happening while we're doing this so to me it's like as long as that feeling is still there then that's kind of what you're really focused on so it's almost like I think to myself maybe like you know there'll be a time where I'll look back about some of these things that we've done and so forth and you know and but that's it's not right it's not now in that sense you know but it's also true it's like it's been a long time so if not and i probably i probably been saying a version of this to myself for a very long time but i think in some ways i think i don't think about it that much because i just want to keep going forward because i really do believe in what we're we're doing and and if i ever felt like trying or like there was a drought in the songwriting or the chemistry just wasn't there then you know i'm sure we would definitely take a big pause we definitely would take a moment we definitely would never force anything but it's kind of insane to me that actually that has never been and then on this latest round it felt very yeah it felt really amazing in the moments you know and it felt very exciting and we didn't wasn't even belaboring we didn't spend a ton of time working on these songs while we're writing before we started recording them so i think if you're having moments like this that are feeling very like good energy positive and you're getting excited then you kind of more focused on that than what you've already accomplished yeah yeah yeah of course for the new album was there any more of those sort of like magical moments that you remember when something really started to come together and feel complete i think there's a couple of times i feel like when we were doing like the bird and serpent which is towards the end of the record that one does something i know when i was like that was like one song that i think when i was writing the main progression i i had it in a very different kind of mode it was almost maybe a little bit more like it just felt like more maybe like more rocky and all of a sudden i started playing with it like the sort of rhythm of it and uh i feel like that's sort of kind of so for me i was getting kind of excited about like oh what this could be and then when we started working on it as a unit in the rehearsal room i just feeling the excitement of the energy and so forth and feeling realized i think that was like a good indication i think this mirror weighs a ton of the title track when that started growing in studio i mean a really great moment for me is just like sitting there with Andrew's work and some of those atmospheres that are happening in the song um in the courses and um and Paul is just right next to me at that moment is you know to me I felt like that's almost become like a an instrumental piece of music but then Paul was to my left and he was like writing in a notebook and then all of a sudden he ran to the he had like a little studio in the back of Andrew's studio like a little working room and then two hours later I walked in and he played me some of the vocals that he had just recorded and and right there and then you're like oh so this is definitely not going to become a an instrumental because these vocals are too good and now these and these melodies are too amazing and then even then i'm pretty sure you just in that one moment he'd written um this mirror weighs a ton that lyric was already there so like right there you're like what is that like that just jumps out at you so those are really exciting kind of like visceral moments i would say you know um but there's a lot of them on the record like even like even like a song that's maybe a little more like an inner pulse song like see out loud uh that that was like a really fun one put together and just fun to jam on and stuff like that or uh wake up too that's you know that feels like a you know sort of like kind of like my guitarist a little bit like a almost like a west african kind of like guitar sort of inspired you know rhythm and then like you know just the song playing that together like the energy and so forth was really fun it sounds like the songs sort of evolve a lot from the time you bring them in into the band And are there any that you were sort of surprised by or went in a direction that was extremely satisfying?

47:55Daniel Kessler:I mean, there's countless because I think it's like as much as maybe the songs tend to begin with me for the most part. The thing that makes them so exciting is like I would never predict where they're going to go. And that's like something that I wanted from the very beginning of the band. And it still happens now. And it becomes all of our songs like as soon as I put on onto the floor of the rehearsal room. So on the Slaves record, all of them, I can say that for sure. It's because as soon as like, you know, what Paul, I might do something and then Paul might do something. Sam might be more influenced by what Paul's doing than I was doing.

48:28Daniel Kessler:And Brad now has been like writing for us as well, playing bass. It's all, you know, and I think to me, that's the idea. It's like not the unpredictability of what the end result, what we're going to settle on, who's going to be inspired by who and what. Which I guess in some ways you could say, well, that's maybe like a lot of bands. But for ours, I think it's made it less of, you really don't know where this is really going to set upon. But I think even working, again, like the Bird and the Serpent, while working on this one and working with Andrew, who's just such an orchestration whiz and a musical whiz and just knows music so well from a compositional standpoint.

49:04Daniel Kessler:So you added all these great sounds towards the outro of that song. and it sort of just has this like it just feels like you just enter into this other world this has an other worldliness in a way that's just like it's like exotic this it's like certainly there's some sounds on on that section of song that never been on um you know uh any other interpol yeah fast and it's just sort of like unexpected from where you're going from from where you've already been through this journey and then all of a sudden you're in this like plane i look at this like this open field with these like little exotic animals just hopping up and down It's just sort of like an amazing place to be.

49:37Daniel Kessler:And so I love the fact that that was created. And the fact that we were all like really receptive to that versus being like, no, no, no, no, that can't be on an Interpol record. It was more like, yes, I can get an Interpol record. And it's like, it should be. And so these are things in some ways or another that have, you know, existed. Like I would say, like, you know, from NYC, from the first record to on, you know, I love to admire, like on our very first track, Pioneer to the Falls. Like that song, it's, you know, I still love playing that song. and but compositionally there's also like some orchestral elements in it that are not so obvious to be on an interval track as far if you were like based on one of the first two records sound like so i don't think there's always been things that we've tried to be open to and and uh and something like not have not push ourselves i think these are just tastes that we've always had and so when we've encountered like a situation where we can go there or be include them it's just it's felt braided as long as it's not like forced onto it as much as like oh no this is a it makes sense that we've arrived at this like that's you know destination and and um i think on this latest record just like a lot of examples on that like just every track has so many more keyboards than we've ever had on um you know previous records and sounds and so forth and i think that was definitely something that andrew wanted to bring forth and i was and for me that was exactly what i was hoping that he would um introduce have you started thinking about the next album yet are you still just locked in on on this one i mean i think i love writing music so i'm i'm all you know like a little like animal i think i'm always like kind of like always like trying to like chisel away and work on stuff so it's like as as i i i'm so now like every moment that i'm not on the road i will follow that routine that i was you know speaking of and just trying to like you know i think i probably i mean there's a degree of like i like having something that's going on that i'm like excited about that I want to kind of keep you know nurturing and trying to building and so forth and I feel that way now certainly but then you also want to be open well maybe there's even more that you can do you know you don't want to it's nice to have those like things that you're already like concentrating on but it's also like well let's get through with those things because then you can have like an open palette and you never know what's going to get introduced and I think that's part of like the exciting element of trying to do this you want you know the unexpected and And what all of a sudden you find yourself like working on that.

51:53Daniel Kessler:You're like, where did this come from? You know, and those are the things that feel very alluring and you hope for, you know, and you can't, for me at least, I can't really force them. I think there's certain people who can just write, you know, 10 hours a day and have like a hundred songs a year. I'm not quite like that. I think I like, you know, I'm a little more like a fisherman who just puts a fishing rod in the water and then hopes something bites and you never know when it does. But the important thing is just go fishing every day. do you pick up the guitar at any other points during the day or is it strictly the morning routine with the coffee in the film uh it you know it's it's i will do like over time but i realize i just don't have the same like uh obviously you know like as far as writing yeah i don't have the same sort of like connection as far as like creativity obviously you play shows at night you know like sometimes super late at night and so forth so it's not a uh that's just but that's like a different thing that's like an emotional like release you know and um but you know it's like i can i in the afternoons or other times of day if i'm like more like recording on my own where i'm like you know i know what i want to do it's a matter of like exercising it better like i can do things like that and i do do that but it's as far as creativity i don't know why but i guess it's like this is something that i just realized for me and everyone's wired a little bit differently but i realized that for me a long time ago and then i guess it's like that you know friends of mine have told me that a lot of creative people over history not just music this is just kind of like they had their own patterns and i remember seeing this film with uh the director bergman talking about his routine and you're just like really regimented about it it was like something like the morning time like nine to noon he would just like lock himself in a study and work on on uh whatever he was working on and so forth like and i think there's something about like those kind of routines that do make sense to me like i do identify with and yeah yeah those patterns you know it feels good to have a pattern too or have sort of like something you can look forward to in a schedule.

53:46Daniel Kessler:Totally. I think it centers you a little bit, but I think that's to me, it's like that's why it's like having no clock, not thinking, I don't even turn on my phone. I don't look at the world. It's just, yeah, to me, that's like the biggest luxury I can have in this morning. So I truly, I treasure them. I don't want to put you on the spot, but because you say film and not movies, I feel like you might have some really good recommendations. Do you have just like a couple films that you would recommend or that you just love or that you could go back to or that people should see? Yeah, I mean, there's so many.

54:23Daniel Kessler:And I'm like, it's like it's always in those moments that you're like, oh. I know, I know. I hate when people ask me questions like this. I feel like the answer is only one, the one I was mentioning before, The Passengers, a really unique one. I think Jack Nicholson stars in it I think he made it the year right after Chinatown he's one of the world's most famous actors and yet he's making this sort of really, by today's standards would be considered an independent film like an arthouse film I think it's shot in North Africa in Barcelona for sure in London too but it's also right the year before Franco dies of the year you know so it's like it's like a unique time and history to see these places so you'll see parts of barcelona in a way that like you know treasures these gaudy buildings and there's also so much space in the film itself there's like it's like a atmospheric like ambient space there's like not it's not flooded with dialogue but there's a plot and there's like a little bit of a mystery to it and uh antonioni is one of my favorite directors and just so like just and he has a sense of cultivating like atmosphere that just really it's like meditative you know it's really it's a great film to see in movie theater if you ever have the opportunity like if there's ever like a retrospective so that film yeah i do i love bad land is like you know by you know terrence malick's first film was a film that was like uh i can go back to every few years for sure that i you know i really love i feel like the phantom threads you know i feel like that's actually like a really like a perfect film there's so many films all over the place so uh scenes from marriage by bergman's like amazing obviously a different thing and i also actually You know what I really love is Fassbender's Ali, Fear Eats the Soul.

56:05Daniel Kessler:That's a really great film. It's like really different from his work. It just has a different vibe. But there's something so timeless about this story. Sadly true about human nature. And it's made like early 70s. But somehow there's a commonality that resonates today as much as it would then. But there's also a sweetness and a love story to it as well. and yeah, I can go back and watch that film every few years too. Ollie, Fears of Soul. And I love Tony Erkin too. It was a great film too that came a couple of years ago. Cool. Okay, I'm watching all of them because I'm in a slump. Oh, if you haven't seen some of those, Tony Erkin's really good too.

56:44Yeah. Is there anything else about the new album you want to talk about or do you want to talk about the tour? Is there anything you wanted to sort of get in before we sign off?

56:56Daniel Kessler:Just really excited. I mean, I know it's probably like the job of like, you know, I think of a band to be sort of rah, rah, rah on, you know, their new record and so forth. But it was really like something that we felt like really great about. And it just felt like sometimes I think you, especially I remember something like reading this interview with Guy from Fugat's like years ago or seeing something. I don't remember how long ago it was, but I remember something he said really resonated in me in a way that maybe even then I didn't understand because I hadn't, I don't know what stage of recording I was at.

57:26Daniel Kessler:but it was something about, I think, along the lines of when you record a song, whatever, the version of the recording that you make becomes the song. Maybe you played it countless other times and that recording is the song. Sometimes that version, that can go either way. You write a song, you rehearse it a lot of times, but maybe everything can go any way or direction when you're making a record. Do you know what I mean? But whatever version you release becomes the song itself. So it's like, I don't know if that makes sense, but to me that really resonated. I was like, oh, wow, okay, that's actually like really – and I think it would take from someone who's done this actually on the sand or, you know, to feel it because you're like, wow, that's really becomes like maybe you had an off day that one day or maybe like two days later it went better.

58:11Daniel Kessler:Or maybe if you had just done this one other thing, it really takes like a piece, like finding a piece, being like, well, this is what we said and this is the document that we made and therefore we need to move on. And I think that's what you have to eventually do. I think in the making of this record, though, I felt like really, like, really good about everything, all of our choices. And we certainly had, like, you know, some hurdles along the way and so forth that we had to, you know, make. But I feel like just the record we made is like a really cohesive album. And obviously, we're the same people.

58:40Daniel Kessler:We're so Interpol. And, you know, the sensibilities will be there, you know, and maybe recognizable. But I do think it's like an evolution. I think it's a progressive record. And I don't know. it feels like a great next chapter for us and also one that just like really felt like nothing is forced about it just probably this is like what we said next and this is something that i think we've been aspiring to say for for a while and i think we've arrived with this with this album yeah i agree it's a really really good interpol album and i saw i know you don't pay attention to critics but i did see the guardian called it your masterpiece i i had just heard that they hadn't used that word and it's such a wild i mean it's like where your brain's like, wait, what?

59:20You know, I'll take it,

59:24Daniel Kessler:but that's really amazing to hear. You know, that's really. Yeah. Best of luck with all of it. Have fun on tour. And thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate your time. Thank you. It's been lovely chatting with you. In the episode description, you'll find a link to a playlist of our favorite Interpol songs. Be sure to check out youtube.com slash broken record podcast to see all of our video interviews. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at The Broken Record Pod. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tomlin.

59:57Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.

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