Interpol's Paul Banks

32:51And it was a little bit kind of like off-putting to me when the first record came out and I realized that we were just being contextualized. It's like what this band is doing is derivative of and a callback to this very specific thing that already happened. Because in my mind, it was like, actually, I thought I found like three geniuses and we're doing like dope shit together. And that's what I thought was happening. I didn't realize that we're actually this thing that you're telling us that we are. Now I understand it's all completely founded. All of those assessments and comments make perfect sense to me now.

33:24but I was young and naive. Anyway, I don't know who it was that sort of came up with the concept for Next Exit, if it was a Daniel thing or if Carlos went to the organ straight away, but I loved how it sort of represented something very unlike what we were seemingly known for. So it was like a little bit of just like dusty Americana. Even just that, the fact that it felt like Americana, I kind of felt like I really liked that we're doing this song and I really liked that this song is the first one that we're kind of constructing an intro to a record because it's not what's expected. It's not cold.

33:59It's not da-da-da-da-da-da. It's got a completely different vibe. And I really liked the dashing of expectations in a way that was very honest and earnest. It's like we're also huge Roy Orbison fans, like everybody in the band, for instance. So it's genuine to us, but it felt like this is going to be a little bit of a left turn for some people who were expecting something else from us. So I liked that we did that song. How does sequencing work in the band? Who comes up with the final sequence? And what is that process like? It depends. Like I sequenced Marauder, Daniel sequenced the most recent record.

34:39I think Antics was probably Daniel, but I think we did kind of debate it and maybe did some reorganizing. it was likely a group effort I think on that one or maybe we all took home cds and like tried to sequence it I don't remember seems so hard because there's so many songs there could be an infinite number of sequences to sort of like settle that debate it seems tough but you know the music in such a different intimate way when you've made it that it's like everything is so familiar to you and I think that you it sort of makes sense it sort of makes sense yeah it's not that hard were there other songs that were recorded that were left off the final version of antics good question yeah i think yeah oh yeah we tried to finish this song called uh that came out later called we called it gavilan when it came out but it was called cubed at the time and that was like one of our best things that we ever wrote and i just couldn't get the fucking lyrics together on that one and i think that's why it didn't happen and i think song seven also was a case i just didn't like that song that's why that didn't come out but it's since come out and i think i think the fans really like it but wasn't my fave yeah i can't remember other b-sides from that record though all right what about evil evil was one that i spent like a lot of time on the lyrics and i really enjoyed writing that and i felt like that was like a yeah actually for me it's kind of one of those songs that was a single for us that I really like.

36:10And I think sometimes the singles are the ones that I like, you know, not as much as some other songs, but Evil. Yeah, I really enjoyed writing the lyrics to that. And yeah, it's a good song. I like that one. How do you usually listen to mixes? Do you take stuff home with you? Were you burning CDs and listening to them in like your car or in like a disc band? What was the process for you for really hearing what had been tracked. Yeah, I love listening on car stereos, but I think at the time it would have been like a CD player, a portable CD player. And for me, that would be because like, that's how I listened to my, at the time we were doing Antics, that's how I listened to my Trans Am and my Stereolab and my John Frusciante's, you know, on my CD player.

36:55So yeah, popping it into the same format that I listened to music I'm enjoying at the time, that's how I would, you know, reference it and see how it kind of, if I get a visceral kick that way. And then there's this funny thing with music. It's like there's the honeymoon phase right around when you're mixing and mastering where I love it and my heart is totally open to it and it's like great. And then that ends and then I kind of can't listen to it anymore because I'll only hear shortcomings and things that bother me about it. Once it's out? Yeah, once it's out, yeah. Or even once it's soon to be out.

37:28Do you think it's because at that point you're letting go and you're not able to tinker anymore? Possibly or also just like now everybody else is like, you know, fingies are going to get all over it. And I'm going to have to deal with like people's, you know, there's expectations and then there's like the actual reaction. And I think it's once it's in the field of like, now people are going to be satisfied or dissatisfied and it's this whole world of like, now judgment is being passed on this music. And I think the moments before that enters my perspective is a great phase. And then I have to just turn away from it now.

38:08How do you deal with haters? If you're in comments and you're reading what people are saying, are you of the mind that you have to just have a thick skin and sort of keep on? Or how do you deal with it? i think i read like the first half of a review of like our second or our third record and that was the last thing i ever read like critically about the band and then i didn't read or pay attention to anything until like the last record and then i guess like getting more familiar with sort of the world of instagram and stuff and like seeing things on youtube i actually like do now read comments i don't read any critical anything but i read like audience comments and um and i don't know it's generally pretty nice is what i this is what i found it's actually like so i mean i'm sure the crit if i read any kind of like actual official review i'd probably be super pissed and bummed but i just yeah haven't done that since like oh six do you read reviews of other bands that you like no i don't give a shit no no i mean i and i like i support the form of criticism i you know i actually i think it's important and i like yeah like no yeah no disrespect but no it's not really for me and i it's even like laughable to even think about that i i generally kind of know what i like when i hear it and that's all i need to know you know no that's great i imagine it could be soul crushing to put so much into something and then have somebody who's not even a musician just kind of like shit on it.

39:45Yeah. And they can be so, yeah, it's like brutal. And it can be so persuasive too, because they can write a story or for, you know, sort of like subconsciously form an opinion in people's minds about the whole like impetus of a project or the motivation. And then people just like think that that's reality. Yeah. And also it's like, it's really out of sync with like, like, I just felt like my, my process is more pure than that. And like less contrived than that and the way they write it as though like oh they were trying to do this and they failed and it's like I don't know I was just trying to do cool shit that felt fun actually and like I don't really know if I could fail at that but you framing it like they were trying to do this or that but I mean it's also sometimes criticism is great and insightful and blah blah blah but I don't need to hear about it for my own work totally how did you find John Frusciante's work I think it was his first solo that you really liked.

40:41Neanderlates. What was your experience finding that album? Yeah, I was in a dorm freshman year at NYU, and my roommate was this kid named Phil. Well, we had seven of us in this dorm, but Phil, he was Chinese American, but I can't remember his last name. um and he introduced me to centrado and sebado and he introduced me to that john frusciante record neanderlades and usually just a t-shirt yeah he had some great music that he was into but for me you know like blood sugar sex magic is was a huge record for me um and the song i could have lied was one of the most important tracks you know in the early days of starting to play guitar even before nirvana was the thing that like made me decide like that's what i'm gonna do with my life but you know right before that uh with blood sugar smack sex magic like and it's particularly like the guitar in in under the bridge and the guitar solos and i could have lied where i felt like goosebumps and and as like like my 13 14 year old brain was like going like holy shit with the with the feeling that this is giving me and then you see john frusciante in the video for under the bridge it's like okay that's also the coolest guy to ever do it the hat um Yeah, the whole thing, like the slouch, just the whole thing, like he's the fucking goat.

42:05And so that was the impression I had. So when I heard he's got a solo record, I was like already kind of like, oh, cool, I want to hear that. And then I just loved, love, love, love that record. Have you met John? I did meet John with RZA. Yeah. And again, just refer back to my Dave Grohl comments. I don't know. If you give me like 16 visits with somebody, then I'll break through. You can loosen up. If I got to make an impression like one time, it's just I think I failed. It was fascinating. I was at his house to watch a Mayweather-Canelo fight, actually, because RZA and him are like besties. And so I was working with RZA and they just brought me along.

42:50And I mean, it was epic. I mean, Frusciante was working on a hip hop record that he was producing at the time and he played that to me and I was floored. It was incredible. And some of the things he told me about hip hop I had never thought about. And like, you know, I was very impressed. He's a very incredible individual, but I didn't feel like, you know, we... Yeah, I don't... I didn't give him my phone number or anything, and that was that. He didn't become besties. No, that's like a proper hang, though. I thought you were going to say you crossed paths backstage at a festival or something.

43:23No, no. We had some chats. That's cool. Do you remember what he was talking about with hip-hop? Well, one thing was I was talking about how I love the cadence and how I've always felt like it was... I'm just more interested in hip-hop than rock music since the beginning of Interpol, basically. I haven't listened to rock in my free time at all in the last 20 years. And one of the things I say about hip hop in the early days was that it was just a much more fertile genre. That's what I say in 2002 when we were doing our first, that I don't care about the genre of rock, and I just care about this other genre.

43:59But what I would say is the lack of melody in the vocal means that the lyric has to be a little bit more impactful, and also the flow and the rhythms are more interesting. And I was saying that kind of standard thing that I say about hip hop to John Prusciante and he's like whoa whoa whoa whoa there definitely is melody in the lyrics of hip-hop and I was like huh okay and he basically explained to me that like it's not what would you would call like it's not like the absence of pitch like there is pitch in like there is no choice in a in a rap lyric yeah and uh and now I kind of seem like oh yeah that's that's kind of obvious or it would sort of sound clashing but in the same way I almost looked at like spoken word it's indeterminate pitch I guess you call it like it doesn't matter what note the voice is hitting and I looked at hip-hop that way and he kind of corrected me I think he also said some stuff about like drum production that I can't remember offhand but like it's it's definitely some like mad genius kind of stuff yeah he's definitely on another level like somebody who has perfect pitch and can hear pitch and everything more than that it's like they just can like see details in everything and keep track of them in their mind and have kind of like aesthetic preferences over dimensions that most of us don't even notice.

45:19So cool. Yeah. It's kind of like a wizard perspective. It's as I say, it's like having preferences and things that the rest of us might just be like, I didn't know you could have a preference on that matter. Right. Spending so much time with RZA, did you get a wizard feeling from him as well? or what was your impression of RZA? Yeah, RZA's a bona fide genius. Whatever lore or aura people attribute to him without knowing him, I would say that it's definitely true. You know, he's definitely not a regular person. He's really a genius musically and kind of someone who's done a lot of work on themselves spiritually, you can tell.

46:03I've never heard him say a negative thing about anyone ever, which is like, I think he's the first person I've ever been around that's like that, where it's like, he doesn't operate in the kind of like pettier levels that a lot of people, myself included, do. He's just sort of like geared around, I think, joy and creativity. And he's like a really affable person and just really, really, really intelligent and gifted. That was a feeling I got watching the Hot Ones when you guys were on Hot Ones like 10 years ago. He just seemed like so much fun to hang out with and just kind of like down for whatever and like a really positive outlook.

46:40Yeah, and I think, but it's not entirely without intention. Like what you perceive there would be that he's made the decision, I'm going to go do this show that Paul said we should do. And I'm obviously not going to try and have a bad time or have an attitude. I'll go and like, like he chooses to go have a nice time and be light about it. So like there was an instance where like I've, we did this thing with like the Spike Awards actually Kobe was there that time it was the first time I ever saw Kobe speak in person R.I.P. yeah I had no idea he was like super intelligent guy I was like I didn't I wasn't aware at the time the hell intelligent Kobe clearly was but anyway so like RZA gets up and he like does this like pretty like presents like the next award so like first we're like at a table together like in these nice suits that we got for the event and like and then he gets like ushered away to go like you know perform like the intro to some category on camera and he just like nails it and he even like kind of like a telly sort of like improvised off of what the teleprompter was saying he was just like completely relaxed and like charismatic and funny and likable and blah blah blah and he came back to the table and i was sort of like man how do you do that how do you just go up there and just go to like fucking hit a home run like that he said like well i just think about the fact that like i'm the guy in the cool suit so the guy in the cool suit would like be cool and I realized it sounds like so simple it's like don't overthink it but he like inhabits the mode that he chooses to inhabit in that moment I think a lot of us are sort of more at the subject to the environment we're in to impact how we conduct ourselves and I think he's someone who chooses how he's going to conduct himself and the environment is sort of you know the recipient of that rather than affecting that.

48:27Right. No, that's incredible. Did you get a chance to ask him like stories about Wu-Tang or did you learn anything about the history of Wu-Tang or any sort of like anecdotes about the group that kind of blew your mind? Yeah, it was one thing that he said about how like when they would want to go to like a concert or something, I think he said they'd bum rush the door because he'd be like, because we'd just be like, you know, eight or nine giant dudes and like the bouncers would be like what are we gonna do so we would just bomb and i was kind of like because i met also like method man and ghostface are huge people i don't know if you know that but they're like large dudes um and riz is big too you know so it's just kind of like yeah this this idea of them kind of rolling around brooklyn being scary as hell also i mean i guess like the mini series now the that rusa has done has shown some of this stuff but like he told me some stuff about the actual criminal exploits of certain members and how they were like really legitimately scary dudes any odb stories i just got the feeling that he really really loves odb yeah and i and i think i think odb was like had a special place in riz's heart i think odb is like a really pure unadulterated creativity that i think was maybe just like really something to behold yeah like even they you know his one of his names like there's no father to his style is something that they would say and i kind of think that's yeah that's a great way to look at odb it's like that just comes from nowhere yeah i remember like when i first started working with i was like trying to tell my mom like you know the basically like the wikipedia article on this person is not at all going to give you the entire picture of how important this person is like this person as the years go on people will start to give him the credit of being someone very important in the history of music um yeah on a number of levels and uh yeah really magical magical person after this last break we'll be back with the rest of leah rose's conversation with paul banks in today's super competitive business environment the edge goes to those who push harder move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

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53:27machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. We're back with the rest of Leah Rose's conversation with Paul Banks. All right, let's talk about a couple other tracks from Antics, just so I don't leave that just high and dry. Is there any song in particular that stands out to you that you remember recording or writing? And Take You on a Cruise was a special one because that was a song that I had no vocals for. Oftentimes I would sort of just be focusing on writing my guitar parts while we were writing songs and there would just be like, that was a song that was an instrumental until we're in the studio.

54:12and then I remember it was the one time where there was like a Pro Tools rig set up downstairs for me and I just like worked by myself I think even overnight and wrote the vocal top to bottom and then I think the next day like Daniel came in and like you know they played it back for him Daniel often mentions that that was like a very powerful moment for him because it went from like having no vocal to having like the complete treatment to take you on a cruise it was also kind of good because that song has like a little bit more of a low key temperament than a lot of the other music. And it has to do with the fact that it was written by me just like this, like with a microphone in front of a computer rather than in the rehearsal room, like yelling over Sam's drums.

54:53It was more intimately composed. And I think that was like a good thing to put in our body of work at that time. Like it's a little different. And I love that song. Yeah. When the album was out and people were listening to it and you started playing live, what songs could you see the audience responding to first? Evil was a big one. Slow Hands was a big one. Nark is one that to this day people really like, and I really like Nark. That's probably a personal favorite for me. Yeah, talk about Nark. Anything you remember from writing that or recording it? I remember writing some of the lyrics in Tompkins Square Park while I was walking around, and it's interesting that I would remember such a specific moment, but I literally remember kind of like choosing to like hold off on a vocal delivery until the second chord of my guitar progression like like I remember mapping out where I would sing in the verses while walking around Tompkins Square Park on like a sunny day and then I remember writing more of the lyrics to that song Nark in a cemetery next to the studio in Connecticut so obviously I didn't write everything in Tompkins Square Park it was still some stuff I was doing while we were recording the record.

56:09So yeah, it's funny. I remember two different lyric writing sessions and where I was for that one song. Is there anything that you've gotten specifically from listening to hip hop? Like I know you were talking about cadence. Is there any inspiration you've gotten with your own performance or your own writing style? I used to subvert, like I loved the braggadociousness of like a lot of hip hop, the kind of like, you know, I'm the shit and like, This is all my cool shit that I do. And I felt like, obviously, I don't feel like that, but I like the idea of a person with a microphone. So I will have lyrics where I'll say something like the tone is that I'm bragging, but what I'm saying is something crazy.

56:54Or I'm timeless like a broken watch. I make money like Fred Astaire. That's sort of my... Imagine if a rapper was saying that. It's kind of like, well, is that even something to brag about? What do you even mean? But sort of like my surrealistic bent on the braggadociousness of the self-aggrandizing tropes. Yeah. How many different languages do you speak? Spanish, well, and French, pretty well, and English. And Spanish, so you speak Mexican Spanish and Spanish Spanish. It's a little bit different, right? Like different dialects? Yeah. My accent is much more natural in the Mexican dialect, but I learned the Spanish one.

57:38I lived in Spain for four years and then Mexico for one year, but the one year in Mexico, my accent became better with Mexican Spanish than it ever was with Castilian Spanish. Is it a little looser, the Mexican Spanish? Yeah, I mean, Castilian Spanish has a real edge to it. it's like a like a thickness yeah yeah and mexican spanish is more sing-song and then slang in in castilian spanish and castellano is like a really fucking edgy and like dark and like they say crazy shit like um the the turns of phrases like me cago en la leche and like all these things that are like just i don't want to translate it but like like it's like offensive and edgy kind of ways of saying like holy shit and in mexico the slang is a lot more kind of like playful and there's like a lot of um it spoke more to me the kind of the dialect in in mexico and the the word play and the language feels like very alive and like they say really funny like turns of phrase and just like it's like a it's like a on a wavelength that really resonated with me and then i had friends that were just like really genius like very funny and also in In Spain, no one spoke to me in Spanish, but in Mexico, I was like the huero gringo who spoke Spanish.

59:01So they actually would speak to me in Spanish. So I got like kind of more practice there. Was it hard moving to new, I mean, not only going to new schools, but going to new countries? How did you make friends? Did you have like a strategy for getting in with people? No, no. I mean, I went to three high schools in three countries. Wow. But I was like badly bullied before I moved to Spain. Like badly bullied. Really? Like assaulted at school. Is that in Jersey? Yeah. Like collective bum rushed. Oh, no. Like, yeah, I got the shit kicked out of me a lot in New Jersey. Wow. Yeah, like five or six instances of pretty dramatic violence like at school.

59:49so when i moved to spain it was like cool let's fucking let's get the fuck out of here and then when we moved from spain back to new jersey and that was the one where i was sort of like yeah same school system same house and i just had this incredible experience like going out to bars and like bonds like my best friends now are friends that i made in spain then so coming back to new jersey after that i was kind of like a little bit like and you know this is for everybody I don't want anything to do with any of y 'all like at all. And yet I did meet some lovely people and like, obviously like kids are kids.

1:00:21So even some of the people that had been kind of like the bullies, you know, I even became friendly with some of them and, you know, but you never really get rid of that stuff. Like it definitely like shaped how I view everybody. I think, you know, bullying at that young age. But so that was, that was interesting. It was going back to that. And then leaving that was to go to Mexico, which again was kind of like, I'm good. like Spain turned out to be so dope, then I'm open to see what Mexico has for me. Were you angry at your parents for moving so much or did you just kind of go along with it? When we went to Spain, I was like, cool, let's fucking go.

1:00:57I fucking hate New Jersey. So thank you, mom and dad. And then I didn't like Spain when I got there. But then like a year and a half in, I think once I realized like, oh, wait a minute, I didn't like it at first and now I love it, maybe that's what it's like if you go anywhere in the world. You're not used to it at first, and then you come to love it. And maybe that's why everybody, wherever they're from, likes where they're from. So once that clicked, I was like, oh yeah, I could just go anywhere. And eventually, I would find my way to love the place. And I've always been kind of an introvert.

1:01:29So I always had friends. I didn't need more friends. I didn't feel friendless. In New Jersey, I did. But that was kind of outside as I say because I was like fuck all y 'all what was your relationship like with your parents were you close with them were you rebellious yeah but you know I never shoplifted and I didn't skip a lot of school but I'm yeah I got in trouble at school a lot for acting out in a goofy way yeah but then you know I also got good grades so it's like it never never was that bad. Do you want to talk about being a dad at all? Are you open to that? Sure. Yeah, it's the best. I really love being a dad.

1:02:12Has it been a big change for you? Yeah, it has. It's very simplifying, kind of makes the career not matter to me as much, but at the same time makes me want to do better at my career because I want to provide and just do a good job and be a good example but i don't care about like accolades or recognition anymore because it's like the only thing that matters is that this dude is happy and yeah adjusted and stuff it's awesome you're getting that experience yeah i mean the the sappiest thing that i can say about it too is that uh i definitely um feel like there's a capacity for love that I had my whole life, but it's never been entirely safe to turn that high beam all the way on.

1:02:59I think because relationships are complicated and we all have some defenses up. So then to have a baby and it's like, oh, wait a minute, to turn on the love beam all the way without any need to hide any of it, it's really a beautiful experience. And I love that little dude so much. It's crazy. Did it take you a while? I've heard that sometimes with dads, it can take a little while for that connection to form. No, not at all. Or was it instantaneous? No, but I believe in kind of like normalizing the fact that that happens. Because, yeah, I've heard that. Like, I've heard it happens for moms, too.

1:03:40Sometimes they don't have a bond. And so I think it's important to kind of like say that that's totally reasonable and talk about it. But no, I immediately felt a huge magnetism and connection to him. Amazing. Amazing. Congratulations. Yeah. Well, thanks so much, Paul. I appreciate you for hanging out for so long. My pleasure. Yeah. Great. Thank you. Thanks again to Paul Banks for talking about the making of Antics and his creative writing process over the years. You can hear our favorite Interpol songs along with some of Paul's solo material on a playlist at brokenrecordpodcast.com. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast where you can find all of our new episodes.

1:04:26You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Toleday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats.

1:05:02I'm Justin Richmond.

1:05:10The more you learn about your favorite artists, the more you want to know. Claude helps you keep digging, finding new threads and rabbit holes to explore. Whether it's discovering deeper meaning behind a detail in an interview, or figuring out the influence behind an artist's particular era, Claude thinks with you to find the next clue. If you can't get enough of the stories behind your favorite music and artists, Cloud will help you discover new layers you didn't know existed. Try Cloud for free at cloud.ai slash brokenrecord. This is an ad by BetterHelp. We've all had that epic rideshare experience.

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1:06:19The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them. Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. This is an iHeart Podcast.