Introducing Louder Than A Riot

25:45That's BetterHelp.com slash broken. By 80, we were signed to Sugar Hill Records, you know, in June of 80. And with that said, you know, our first song that we put out with Sugar Hill Records, we'll call Vastity Join.

26:07So, Shy Rock was the funky 4 plus 1 secret weapon. And when Sugar Hill Records got hip to him, the CEO of the label, Sylvia Robinson, latched on to Shy Rock's talents and her innocence. I was 17 going on 18. But the crazy thing about it is that my mother didn't even sign, you know, my contract for me. My sister, she wasn't my legal guardian, but she signed my contract for me, you know, because I wanted to do it so bad. But, yeah, I was 17. I was 17 at the time, 17 going on 18 at the time that I signed to Sugar Hill Records. Since Sha was underage, she had a sister sign because she didn't want her mom to talk her out of it.

26:53So wait a minute, was your sister signing? Was that legal?

27:00Nope. They didn't care. Okay. Of the strength of That's The Joint, Sylvia Robinson sent the group out on their first tour. They were each promised to make$500 a show. What Sylvia Robinson did with this first Sugar Hill tour is that she wanted everybody, you know, that was under her label at the time. She wanted to take us on like this major tour around the world, you know, to be able to, you know, let people see what Sugar Hill Records was doing. And so the idea was great. I mean, we hit every major city that you could imagine. Every arena, every place that we played at was sold out. When you go into places like Wisconsin, you go into places like Chicago, Florida, you know, places that we never even been before, accepted, you know, rap within hip hop like it was like it was something new to them.

27:53They were going crazy. You know, it's like they treated us like we were like the Jacksons. I was like, listen, you know what? We made it. People are loving what we do. Something that we created. And as the tour was coming to a close, the Funky 4 Plus One got another call from Sylvia Robinson. Ms. Robinson called us out, you know, on tour and say, Saturday Night Live, want y 'all to come and perform. Debbie Harry of Blondie was set to host and perform on the show, and she wanted to feature a special guest. And we were told the reason why she wanted us as opposed to Grandmaster Flash, The Furious Five, or The Sugar Hill Gang is because they had a female.

28:34and the fact that we were young and innocent looking. Now this was the secret weapon in action. Having Shaw in the group was opening the door for the Funky Four. But if being Sugar Hill's first lady was paying off for her group, it was low-key pissing off the label's other acts. Everybody and their mamas was mad. Blood ups. On that two of us. Groups were mad. The other groups was mad. They was furious because they were not the ones. that got chosen to appear on Saturday Night Live. That's why when the tour ended and the tour bus pulled up the Sugar Hills parking lot... Fights broke out. You know, it just went crazy and left after that.

29:17Yup, the Funky 4 Plus One and the Furious Five threw hands. You remember that fight? Yeah, yup, vividly. By this time, Raheem had left the Funky 4 Plus One and joined their rivals, the Furious Five. He was in the parking lot that day, too. just like Sha. I had nothing to do with the beef between the Funky 4 Plus 1 and the Furious 5. The person from the Furious 5 who was physically aggressive towards the Funky 4 Plus 1 was Cowboy. Rest in peace. Do you remember what Cowboy said in the moment? How did he spark it off? I don't remember what was said. I just remember he went after Lil Rodney C physically and he punched him in the head or the face or something.

30:07It's so much stuff happened within those last couple of days as far as animosity, you know, and fights and arguments and all that stuff that went down. And so it came to head, you know, in the parking lot of Sugar Hill Records. And you might be thinking, what does this have to do with Shah? Well, nothing. And everything. To all the other groups, she wasn't just seen as competition. She was now a threat just by being there. But the Funky Four plus one more couldn't dwell on that rap beef. Because a few days later, their big night on SNL arrived. Take us back to like walking to that studio for the first time.

30:47What did it look like? What did it feel like? It was like, okay, we're going to be on TV. We still don't know the impact of being the first authentic hip hop group to ever, you know, be on TV. All we know is that you're going to see us on TV and that's it. And while the Funky Four sat in the green room waiting for their performance, they watched the show live, the Valentine's Day special. As SNL's newest black cast member, Eddie Murphy, popped out in a Cupid costume during Debbie Harry's monologue. Don't you just love him? They love me. Hey, Bonnie over here! Towards the end of the show, Debbie Harry introduces the Funky Four.

31:28What she said was, I got the best street rappers from the Bronx. Please welcome my friends from the Bronx, the Funky Four plus one more. On stage, you can see the crew's arms locked around Shot Rock, like she's in a cage or a cocoon almost. And then the guys, they roll off to the left and right, revealing their star. Now, Shia's dressed differently than the guys who got on tight maroon cardigans and kangos. She's rocking a side ponytail, jeans stuffed in her white cowboy boots, and a pink blouse.

32:04Standing side by side, the funky 4 plus 1 kick off that smash hit. Shia weaves in and out of the other verses perfectly.

32:19We're doing it here We're gonna rock this record And don't you forget Ah, that's the joy Uh, uh, uh Because inner honesty is a melody Help me rock and sing in harmony You gotta understand, you're hearing the records, you're hearing the tapes and stuff like that And then you wake up and somebody says Yo, they was on TV last night That was the life-changing moment So I can imagine the older folks seeing that going Okay, what the hell is this? We're not sure we don't hate it. And then there's the people that just hated it. That's the number one iconic moment in hip-hop. This was one of the first times a hip-hop group was nationally televised.

33:00SNL was likely the biggest stage rap had ever been on at that point. But DMC and all the SNL viewers at home, they didn't realize that that night, Sha was carrying her own plus one. I was pregnant at the time. I think I was like about four, five, six months pregnant, something like that. And so I was like hurting. I was feeling kind of crazy and all of that stuff. My stomach was hurting. And listen, this is nothing like Rihanna doing her big reveal of her baby bump at the Super Bowl. Sha was doing her best to try and hide her bump and how she was feeling. As she gave her best effort, you could tell from the recording, she's stiff and slow with her movements.

33:43That's why you would see I would stand in a certain way, you know, and just look forward and focus out, you know. And so I was like, let me blow it. Let me just get through this, you know, and I'll tell them tomorrow. This was the highest point of the group's career so far. And she didn't want to blow it. Because I just wanted to get through the television show. I didn't want, you know, them to feel a certain kind of way, you know. So I waited until the next day. And I told them one by one. I told Ronnie because I was closer to him first. I told him first. And of course, he went and he told the other guys, you know, within the group.

34:23And it was like crickets after that. Nobody in the group had Shaz back. They was like really fall back. I mean, there was really no conversation. But like, why would you do that, Shah Rock? You know, and then it was like they were distanced. The way Shah tells it, the guys felt her pregnancy would hold them all back. They felt like it would hinder everything that we had moving forward. Shah Rock's pregnant. It's going to slow us down. And so they were very upset. Even though Raheem wasn't a member of the group anymore, he says he relates to how the rest of the Funky Four reacted to Shah's pregnancy at the time.

35:05They were concerned about their livelihoods, you know, at that time. And I could certainly understand that if I were a member of their group at that time, I probably would have voiced the same concern or maybe not. At this point, the other members of her crew were treating Sha more like a liability than an asset. Her pregnancy was clearly a problem in their eyes. So they were very protective of me. And I think when it's all said and done, they probably felt like, if I covered you, then you cover us. You know, make sure that we're good. Make sure that, you know, we're ready to, you know, take the whole world by storm.

35:52Like you betrayed them or something? You could say that. You could say that. But do you ever think about the double standard of that? Like how you're choosing to do something with your own body could be a betrayal to them? Like how could that be? I didn't look at it at that time. At the time, you know, as far as like betrayal, I kind of got it. You know, because not the fact that I betrayed them, but the fact that I love hip hop so much that I could have, you know, thought about, you know, there could have been other ways to, you know, to do it or other ways that I could have made sure that that wasn't the right timing.

36:36That was a decision that I made. I mean, it was upon me. I wasn't going to do anything else to terminate, you know, the situation. and I just had to deal with it. But after the pregnancy, that's when things went downhill for the funky four plus family. How did it feel to have like, have such little support from them, from your crew members, from Rodney and everybody, once you told them? You know what? I've never really blamed them for it, you know, because I look at it like this. You know, we were all young. We weren't now teenagers. And so where you expect for somebody you know, maybe much older, you know, to be understanding.

37:18I think that they were dealing with their own feelings as well, especially being young. Shaw gives the guys a lot of grace and hindsight. Maybe more than they even deserve. Because even if Shaw won't say it, what her group members did was messed up. They iced her out. And things wouldn't ever be the same after that. Shaw was scared too. She didn't know where to go from here. I felt like for me, I was at the height of my career as well. You know, and I was more so nervous, not because I didn't have the support, you know, of my family, but so much nervous to know that it would, you know, put a damper on me moving forward.

38:00Even though Shaw was struggling to balance everything and get right with the guys, the Funky 4 Plus 1 was still up. That SNL performance had gone so well that Debbie Harry wanted them to sign to the same label her group Blondie was on. Only one problem. Sylvia Robinson and Sugar Hill, they weren't having it. And it would be years before Shaw could take control of her own career.

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40:54Every December, we start singing. At church, around the fire, in our cars, with the radio turned up. But have we ever stopped to ask, where did our favorite Christmas carols come from? And what makes them so magical? I think it's probably one of the most perfect tunes to play and to sing. The voices are converging. They're adding this more complex and chromatic harmony. And it gives us that climactic arrival point. Hark is a podcast about the meaning and the making of Christmas carols. Get into the spirit of the season and listen to Hark, the stories behind our favorite Christmas carols. Available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at americamagazine.org.

41:45By 1983, just two years after the big SNL debut, the funky 4 plus 1 had split up. Some members joined up with other crews, but Shyrock, she had different responsibilities. There were times, right, you know, where there was no income, no money coming in, no money coming in nowhere. So once you had your daughter, like, how were you able to take care of her? My mom. My mom. And it was so crazy about it, right? Because here it is, we in New York City. People are hearing our songs. They're looking at us like, yo, what's going on? You know, y 'all should get records, you know, out of the Bronx. Where your money at?

42:26After SNL and the success of That's the Joint, you'd think she'd be getting paid. But after the funky 4 plus 1 disbanded, Shaw was struggling to even see a dime of her royalties. At the time, she couldn't figure out why because she thought her label boss, Sylvia Robinson, had her back. Ms. Robinson promised me that she was going to look out for me, especially for the fact that she became the godmother of my daughter. You know, she Christian, my daughter, at two months old. You know, she came up to the Bronx in her rose wars and Christian, my daughter, at two months old. So I believe that she was going to look out for me.

43:08You know, for all the money of the songs and all the songs that I made, I honestly believe that if she didn't look out for nobody else, she was going to look out for me because she Christian, my daughter, as a goddaughter. And so with that said, I just thought about, yeah, I just thought about the ways that I can get back into it. Yeah, it's really deep. Shaw trusted Sylvia to do right by her. She promised us that she was going to pay us. She promised that she was going to allow us to record as many songs as we want. And she was going to ensure that all our fruits of labor would come to fruition, where we would be able to monetize off of the culture that we created.

43:52And she promises that, but it didn't happen. And unfortunately, this wasn't nothing new to Shaw. Like, remember how they were supposed to get paid$500 each per show? So when she came out there on tour, we was like, you know, what's going on? Our money is short, you know what I'm saying? And she gave us this whole story. And so everything erupted. You know, she gave us one time we had asked her for an advancement and she gave us like we thought we was going to get like six, seven thousand dollars. You know what I'm saying? She gave us like fifteen hundred dollars, you know, and we never seen no money again.

44:28Black musicians have been getting robbed by the record industry since the beginning of time. But it hits different when the label owner stealing your money is family. And her being your daughter's godmom, I mean, she had to see you struggling. I lived in the Bronx, and she lived in a mansion in New Jersey, in Englewood. She didn't see it. She may have known, but she didn't see it because she didn't come to the Bronx. Sylvia Robinson passed in 2011, so we weren't able to talk to her for this story. Sylvia Robinson had this reputation for just kind of like really screwing over these groups financially.

45:13That's Clover Hope again. Women can be vultures and also play a role in misogyny or play a role in this larger capitalist system and downplay other women. And so it's not limited to just men doing it. Shawrock did everything she could to steer clear of Sugar Hill Records. She formed a new group called Us Girls, hoping the label wouldn't get its hands on whatever money came in. Her new crew even appeared in the classic film Beat Street.

45:46But at every turn, Sha was bound by her contract with Sylvia. Basically, she was in a 360 deal before those were even a thing. This is the reason why, like in 1983, I said, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to allow no one to pimp me And take everything away from me that I love So I fell back And I never recorded again for a long period of time Simply because I felt the way for me to handle this Was to regroup Let my contract run out I don't record I don't do anything That anybody can take anything away from me again But even then, there wasn't a roadmap for an unsigned woman MC in hip-hop, trying to turn a passion into a profitable long-term career.

46:42Shia's career hit a glass ceiling. Eventually, hip-hop's memory of the first female MC started to fade, too.

46:52Shia moved on with her life. until 10 years later when she was in a record store and spotted a Sugar Hill compilation on sale for$100. I'm talking to myself, I say, wow, this is they selling this song and I ain't getting paid from it. And I went on this rampage to try to find an attorney, you know, to recoup my money. Shaw wasn't making money, but clearly somebody was. Sheesh, I would have gone on a rampage too. She decided not to take it lying down. So, she rounded up all her old label mates. I went to the Furious Five. Me and Raheem was very close. I said, get all the members together, you know, and come in with me on this lawsuit.

47:33He got them together. I got the funky four together. And later on, a group named Crash Crew, you know, came on. And so we filed against Sylvia Robinson and shook her record. In 1997, Shaw and her former label mates filed the suit. They were seeking royalties as well as other fees from Sylvia, her husband Joe Robinson, and their next of kin, who are now running the company. And this fight dragged on for decades. The Robinsons were uncooperative and eventually both Joe and Sylvia died before a final settlement was reached. And finally, you know, to make a long story short, after all these years, we finally, you know, were able to revert everything back to us.

48:15Now, Shah and Raheem wouldn't disclose to us how much money they got. But for Shah, it was never just about the money. This was about fighting for herself, for her fellow artists, and really for her own legacy. What does it feel like to get your royalties back? Get literally get the credit for your craft back after all this time, after all this time of being doubted and robbed? It feels like I've been vindicated, you know. It feels like that I am still here, you know, in flesh to be able to see the outcome, you know, and my kids, you know, and it's so crazy about it because I think that my kids know that I am a strong woman, you know, and they saw everything that I went through, you know, at that given birth.

49:07They heard it over the years. They heard me on a telephone talking to the attorneys. They heard my passion to other emcees. You know, they know how I feel about hip hop culture. And to be vindicated, right? And to allow my kids to see that no matter what you believe in, whether or not somebody do you wrong or not, if you believe that what you're doing is right, then you go the distance. Other artists had tried to file against Sugar Hill, but Shawrock, she was the first to successfully get everybody paid. Yeah, and that's a fight that's just as historic as being the first female emcee. It's a claim to fame nobody else can make.

49:49Do you feel like there's been times when you weren't respected for your craft? And do you feel respected for your craft now? I used to, you know, think about, you know, not being respected in the beginning, you know, and so I learned not to take it personally. And so instead of me, you know, feeling like I was disrespected because people didn't know who Shawrock was, I took a different approach. I started telling people my story and will continue to tell people my story. And the more that I tell a person a story and they say, oh, wait, that didn't happen, then prove it didn't. I can prove that it did.

50:23And so, no, I learned to not take it personal, but to be personal and let people know who I am and what I meant. and how I was instrumental in helping to move this culture forward. In spaces like the Bronx Music Heritage Center, Shaw gets to define her own legacy. But I just want to say, before I get started about Shaw Rock, I just want to say, y 'all, we are the Bronx. We created a multi-billion dollar business back in the 1970s. You know what I'm saying? A multi-billion dollar business. I'm proud of that. even though I have never received or recouped the money as well as Grandma Cass and Melly Mel and Grand Wizard Theodore we are still proud to have created this billion dollar business because you know what when it's all said and done it was never about the money for us it was about the heart and soul of the culture the b-girl, the b-boy the MC, the graffiti artist, the DJ, right here in the Bronx.

51:34So let's give a round of applause for the Bronx and everybody that represents hip-hop culture to the fullest. At the end of her talk, Shaw Rock starts answering questions from fans in the crowd. Thank you for your contribution to the culture. Because of your voice, at an early age, you planted a seed that women were equal with men right on the mic. hearing you as a child told me women could do it too and that has helped me develop as a man and being in spaces with women because if shy rock was in spaces with the funky four plus one more women could be in any spaces so i'd like to thank you for that thank you so much we talk more to this guy after he calls himself brother north of division x and he says he was one of the people who stayed up late to watch shy rock on snl i had never been up past like 11 o 'clock um when the News came on it was time to go to sleep, and I begged to be able to see it, and my mom's let me stay up, and somehow I was able to catch it in the beginning and fell asleep.

52:38The event was a small crowd, but Shah's fans just keep giving her flowers. I never realized there was a... I was like, yo, one for the girl. We never even saw it as like, yo, she's a girl I'm seeing it. It was never even a question, because she rocked harder than a dude. You know what I'm saying? Her crew was hard. But, you know, her crew back then, her crew was hard. They was tough. They was dope. They was well-respected. One woman in the crowd named Kina became an instant fan of Shaw that night. Did you know anything about Shaw Rock before tonight? Absolutely nothing. Okay, and what did the talk teach you?

53:08So that she was the first female emcee coming out of the Bronx or in general. And that was interesting. I'd never heard her name before. For her to have such an influence on what hip-hop is today and for me to never know who she is, you know, says a lot about storytelling and why it's important. So I'm very happy I came out tonight. Yeah, when you say says a lie, what do you mean? Well, you know, the narrative that goes in the media is like whoever shouts loudest gets heard. And I think she's now starting to get the props that she's due, right? And it's not because she didn't do the right things.

53:40It's just people didn't know who she was. So, you know, you have to go to events like this to start finding out the history and the truth. And, you know, reading up on things and digging deep to not just accept what's being told in, you know, mainstream media. And then something happens that wasn't on the schedule. Grandmaster Kaz throws on a funky beat. Shia hyped up the crowd. Out of nowhere, she breaks into a verse.

54:25Then Shaw invites random fans on stage to rap with her. It's a whole cypher.

54:39Everybody's swarming the stage.

55:02In this room, in the birthplace of hip-hop, Shaw Rock is remembered.

55:15But legacy isn't just about being seen. It's about how you're seen. and ultimately whose lens the world is looking through. Someone always has something to say. Everybody has a comment on your body. It's like, if you're not true, they're talking about it. If you have surgery done, they have something to say. It's just always something to say. People think it's fun. It's like, ooh, let's all join in and bash on the black woman. Ki-ki-ki-ki-ki. is something about the woman's body specifically that really triggers people. Rappers Dream Doll, Baby Tate, and Doji take us through rule number three. Next time on Louder Than a Riot.

56:01Louder Than a Riot is hosted by me, Rodney Carmine, and Sydney Madd. This episode was written by myself, Sydney, and Mano Sundaresen. And it was produced by Mano Sundaresen. Our senior producer is Gabby Bogarelli. And our producers are Sam J. Leeds and Mano Sundaresan. Our editor is Serea Shockley. And our engineer is Gilly Moon. Our senior supervising producer is Cher Vincent. Our interns are Jose Sandoval, Teresa Schia, and Pilar Galvan. And the NPR execs are Keith Jenkins, Yolanda Sanguini, and Anya Grenman. Original theme by Casa Overall. Remix by Suzy Analog. and the scoring for this episode was provided by Suzy Analogue and Casa Overall.

56:49Our digital editor is Jacob Gans. Our fact checkers are Sarah Knight and Jane Gilvin. If you want to learn more about MC Shawrock's story, check out her autobiography, Luminary Icon, the story of the beginning and end of hip-hop's first female MC. If you like this episode and you want to talk back, hit us up on Twitter. We're at Louder Than a Riot. And if you want to email us, it's louder at npr.org. From NPR Music, I'm Sydney Madden. And I'm Rodney Carmichael. This is Louder Than a Riot.

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