Introducing: Norah Jones is Playing Along

24:47I firmly believe when it comes to the holidays, you fall into one of two camps. Someone who loves holiday music or someone who won't admit they love holiday music. There's something about a voice you love singing that familiar opening phrase. Maybe it's Donny Hathaway. Maybe it's Mariah Carey. That just flips a switch. and you're instantly back into that warm and cozy headspace only the holidays can bring. For me, that feeling pairs perfectly with a cup of Starbucks caramel brulee latte. That's their signature espresso with steamed milk and a rich caramel brulee flavor topped with whipped cream and a crunchy caramel brulee topping.

25:20It's like the sound of the season, but in drink form. And that's really what this season's about. Little moments of pairing, little moments of connection. Sharing a song, sharing a story, sharing a caramel brulee latte. because this season and every season, together is the best place to be. Come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant so you can feel confident you're finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else.

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26:30That's why LinkedIn Jobs AI Assistant suggests 25 great fit candidates daily so you can invite them to apply and keep things moving. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash broken, then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs' new AI Assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's linkedin.com slash broken to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, the holidays have this way of bringing up all these feelings about tradition. For me, some of the best traditions aren't elaborate. They're just moments.

27:05Like when my kids and I are experimenting with different hot chocolate recipes or when I'm making gumbo with them for Thanksgiving. But then there are also these quieter moments where I need to step back and actually think about what all of this means to me. And that's really where therapy has made a difference. A practice that keeps me centered when the calendar gets overwhelming or when emotions run high or when I look up and realize half the year has somehow disappeared. Just having one hour a week that's completely yours can cut through all the noise and bring real clarity. If therapy is something you've been considering, December is actually not a bad time to take that step.

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28:07That's BetterHelp.com slash broken. I met you at the Kennedy Center for the first time. Yes. And you took my hand. And you saw I was nervous. I remember. You knew I was nervous. I knew you were. Yeah, you could tell. I could tell. So you took me and you held me. You like held me. I sure did. I sure did. I said, I got to protect this little girl. I was like, what am I doing here? Yeah, I came on down there and got you and let you stand right by me. And we held hands all through that finale. Yes, that was so fun. It was so special meeting you there. Oh, man, that was a good time. Yeah. That was a good time.

28:46Anytime I see your name, I flare up. That could go either way. I was seeing you so much. Like you told me yesterday, you said it was Christmas. But Christmas needed you. I would see you. It really needed you. You know what? I needed Christmas last year, and that's why I made a Christmas album. Because I needed a little joyful something to feel good. Well, I'm glad you made that album. Aw. Because they were featuring you all week, all day, every hour. And then there she is again. It was Christmas exhaustion. Oh, it was beautiful. But, you know, we recorded the song from your Christmas, the Staples Singers Christmas album.

29:33We did the 25th day of December. Did you? I'll send it to you. It wasn't on the album, but it was a bonus track. Oh, please send it. Because I didn't feel like we made it. Your version is so good. It was hard to beat it. Oh, my goodness. But it's great. It's still a great version. It's a great, you know. I loved your, I listened to your Christmas album a lot. Really? When we were recording. Yeah. Really? Oh, and that was so many years ago. Yeah. Wow. But it's beautiful. It's a beautiful album. And Pops, he wrote the song, There Was a Star. He did? Yeah, he wrote that. Oh. And, oh, my God. You, my Christmas.

30:12For a long time, you couldn't find it. We couldn't find it. Oh, they had to reissue it. Yeah. And the Blind Boys, they did some songs from that album. But I got it here 2015. Because that was my favorite. It was so fun. It was January, February. March, April, and May. June, July, August, September, October, November. It was the last month of the year. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the 25th day of December. Did I leave that out? No, I mean, I kept saying when we were recording it, I kept saying the 21st day of December, just because it rolled off my tongue wrong. And my drummer, Brian Blake, he goes, Nora, I think that's one lyric you've got to get right.

30:55This is the 25th day of December, not the 21st day of December. Jesus' birthday. Yeah, don't get that one wrong. No. Yeah, and Pops brought that to you. Pops said, tell me when was my Jesus born? Last month of the year When was Jesus born? Last month of the year When was Jesus born? Last month of the year You've got January, February March, April and May June, July, August, September October, November It was the 25th day of December It was the last month of the year Born by the Virgin Mary Last month of the year He was born by the Virgin Mary Last month of the year Born by the Virgin Mary Last month of the year We got January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, November, it was the 25th day of December, it was the last month of the year.

32:31I love it. Oh, that was fun. Yeah, it was fun. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, well, we're having Christmas today. That's right. I love the end of that song. Last month of the year. So how low can you go, Mavis? How low can you go? I can go down low. Oh, my gosh. I can go down low. Whoa. How low can you go? I can go down very low. That is amazing. But were you like that when you were younger? You know, my voice was so heavy. Always. And I take it from my mother and my grandmother. They had strong voices. But when I was a kid, my voice is higher now when I get my tonsils removed. Oh, really? It got higher, yeah.

33:16That's so weird. Oh, yeah. I used to really be, I would fight. Kids would tell me, you sound like a boy. Wow. And when we started traveling, if I called down for breakfast, the lady would say, yes, Mr. Staple. Yes, sir. And I heard it so much the last time I said, I'm a lady. And they said, oh, I'm sorry. You know, but yeah, it's always been, I've always had a heavy voice. And I used to sing bass, our first record. Really? Willow, willow, willow. That's insane. And how old were you? I was a kid. I was like nine years old. That's when Uncloudy Day came out? Oh, no, and they came when I was 13. Okay.

34:0612, 13. But they wanted to record us when I was a kid, and Pops wouldn't allow it. The president of VJ Records, Vivian Carter, she called Daddy. She said, Stap, those kids, y 'all need to be on record. And Pops said, well, Vivian, I don't know nothing about those records. You know, all of us were green. And he said, I'm not going to let my children get on those records. He was afraid because he was too young. Right. He didn't know what it would bring. He didn't know business of it. Wow. And my sister Yvonne, she wouldn't have books. She got this big red book, this business of music. She helped them a lot.

34:48Really? Oh, yeah. She got that book and helped you guys figure it out. She sure did. That's incredible. Yeah, she sure did. She stayed right with him, you know, booking. And she taught him a lot. But also people like the Soul Stirrers and Sister Mahalia Jackson, they were already recording. And they would tell Daddy different things. You know, they would tell him, you know, what to do and how to do. Watch out for this. So when I was about 12, Pops called Vivian and told her. He said, okay, Vivian, we'll make that record now. I'll let my children make it. After he'd read the book. Yeah, after he'd do the business.

35:29Yeah, he felt good and confident. Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah, so he goes, Pops didn't know, you know, we were just singing. He used to sing with an all-male group, six guys, and these guys wouldn't come to rehearsal. So Pops would be frustrated. He'd come home mad, you know. He came home that third time, and he went in the closet, pulled out a little guitar that he had. We didn't even know he had a guitar. He couldn't play it? He could play it. He didn't have all the strings, but he could make it sound good. And he told my Aunt Katie, he said, I'm going to sing with my children. He called all of us into the living room, set us down on the floor in a circle, and began giving us voices that he and his sisters and brothers used to sing when they were in Mississippi.

36:20That's incredible. People thought we were old people. We would go places, and they just knew we were old people. They'd heard us. Because we had a little radio, 15-minute radio show Sunday morning. And we would sing. And they thought we were old people. Because Pops, we were singing those old voices like his sisters and brothers. We would walk in little stair steps. And they'd say, that's the stable singing. They thought you were old already. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but he would give us those voices, and that's how we started singing. My Aunt Katie lived with us, and she came through one night. She says, y 'all sound pretty good.

37:03And that felt good. I want y 'all to sing in my church Sunday. Had you already been singing in church your whole lives? No. We've been singing. We hadn't, as the family, we hadn't been singing in church. We didn't start. We started doing programs at churches. But my sister and brother were in the young people's choir. At church. I was too young to go. Okay. So you didn't really sing much until he started doing that with you. Until he started us singing. What's your order? There's five of you kids. I'm the baby. You're the baby? Yeah. Okay, Bubbles. I get it now. Yeah, I'm the baby. Oh, no, Cynthia.

37:39I was the baby for 12 years. Oh, wow. And my baby sister came along. And you know I didn't like that. How did that go? I didn't like that. I would be putting diapers on that baby, and I'd stick her. Mama said, baby, you stick in that baby. I said, no, ma 'am, Mama. But Cynthia and I became the best of friends. We became the type. I called her Blessed. And she called me Raber. She couldn't say my name. Raber? Aw. And, oh, but she was, yeah, she was, I told the pops, I said, we got to put Cynthia. She would sing songs with us when we were in Chicago at different churches, you know. But, yeah, Cynthia.

38:26And, see, Mama and Daddy, they were just, my mother was heavyset. So I never knew she was pregnant, you know. Oh, she just happened. I didn't know where this baby came from. And they told me to pacify me. Because when my mother came home, she didn't bring the baby. She had to leave the baby there. And Mama said, you go with Roebuck, pick up the baby. I said, what baby? What baby? Oh, my gosh. And they started telling me that we had this baby. And so they let me name her. They did? Oh, yeah. Cynthia Marie. Thinking you'd be cool with it if you got to name her. That's going to pacify me. Like your baby.

39:12I named her. Oh boy. Because what happened, my father he would pass me up. He'd go straight to that baby bed or wherever she was and he used to blow in my stomach, make me laugh, throw me up in the air when he'd come from work and all that stopped. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. And so somebody should have been around to talk to him, let him know he was supposed to keep doing it. That's interesting. Yeah. I grew up an only child, so it's like just, I can't even imagine what it was like being in a family like that. Oh, wow. Yeah. It was good being in a family. We would disagree. We didn't have any. We'd fuss sometimes.

40:02You would. Mama would tell us, don't do that. You have to love your sister. And that's your sister. And you all make up. Apologize. But, you know, Yvonne and Cleety, they would do most of the arguing. Oh, yeah, because they were the close, older sisters. They were the two oldest, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Whenever you guys were traveling, how old were you when you started really traveling around? And touring, I guess. Oh, yes, we were touring. How old were you when that started? I was like about 13. Wow. Uncloudy Day was a hit. It was a hit, and you were 13 years old. Uncloudy Day, this woman called Pop, she said, Staples, this record is selling like an R &B.

40:50And it turned out that it was the first gospel record to sell a million. That's insane. It was, yeah. It was the first gospel. But we would go to down south. We would go to Milwaukee, Gary, all around Chicago and sing. And people would bet that this jockey, New Orleans, Memphis, the disc jockey would get on the radio and say, this is little Mavis Staples. This little girl is singing this. People would bet that I was not a little girl. Yeah, because you had that deep bass. I'm saying, well, well, well, oh, Lord, they tell me now. And I got a home, got a home. And can you imagine? I'm a little girl, a little skinny girl.

41:45And you're short now, so you've probably been. I was even shorter. I was even shorter. But, yeah, they would bet. And what we would do, we would fool the people. we would sing Uncowly Day down in harmony oh they tell me all of that and then get to the end of it and I come in with well well well oh so what happened was my brother at that people would be sitting on they've been all of these people have bet that I am not a little girl and all of a sudden Purvis move my brother like he's gonna say and you'd hear the people I told you that wasn't no little girl. I told you that one. And I'm easing her.

42:28You're playing trick. I eased her to the mic and they look up and it's really a little girl. We had so much fun with it. But that's so fun to travel with your family. Did it ever get sticky? Nah. You always stick even throughout as you got older? All of it. The only thing Yvonne and Cleety would argue about. Yeah, same. was what to wear. One of them wanted to wear this, and one of them wanted to wear that. And see, because, you know, my brother, he left the group in 1969. It hurt me so bad. Really? Because Purvis and I, we had this clap. Nobody could do that clap the way we would. Oh, yeah. And he just got grown.

43:18A man, you know, men, they get tired of doing what their father tells them to do. You know, he wanted to be his own man. Because Pop's asking. Pop said, Pearl, you sure you don't want to just take a leave of absence? No, Daddy. Nope, I quit. Done. And just as he quit, I'll take you there, Hit. And his friends would mess with him. He'd go into one of their bars or whatever, and they'd put a quarter in a jukebox and put it, I'll take you there. I said, y 'all shouldn't do that, Joanne. Yeah, but he did all right. He managed the emotions for a while. Oh, wow. So he got into the business. Yeah. Oh, he was still in the business.

44:01Yeah. He was still in the business. But the other side of it. Right. Right. Wow. They were gospel singers at first. And they were our little friends, the Hutchison Sunbeams. I mean, they wanted to sing R &B. And that's when Purvis took them down to Stacks, got them a choreographer, taught them for the steps. They had some hits. Yeah. Yeah, but... That's amazing. I mean, it's amazing to me how close you guys stayed. There could have been a lot of drama there. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But my mother wouldn't allow it. Mama and Daddy, you know, they just taught us. They taught us. We grew up loving one another.

44:45That's so special, though, and it's... It really is. It feels unique. I don't know. You're an only child Bless your heart I do have a half sister who's two years younger than me But we both grew up separately So we didn't know each other until we were a little older Oh wow But yeah only child That sounds like a party to me Yeah Oh my god Are you spoiled? Of course you are I don't know If you ask my mother she would tell you a different answer than me maybe. Well, you know I met your mom. Yeah, you did. She's very tall. I'll call her anytime in high school. Oh, man. She is tall. She's tall. And I'm short.

45:31She's 5 '10". I'm 5 '1". So I didn't really... I might have been spoiled, but I never messed with her. Like, I was a good kid because I didn't want her to get mad. She was so tall. Oh, yeah. She was tough. And by her being so tall, you said, I better not mess with her. Yeah. But all you had to do was leap up. Take a jump. I don't think that would have flown without her. You did the right thing. Listen to mom. Mom knows best. I try. Yeah. You try. I try. Oh, my God. Oh, man. I was wondering, do you remember the first song you sang with Pops when he was teaching you? Oh, yeah. The very first song my father taught us was With a Circle Beyond Broke.

46:21Ah, I love that song. With a Circle Beyond Broke. And all that was his favorite. And on our records, we recorded it about four or five times. Yeah. But on the records, Pops is singing. And I love to hear Pops sing. I do. Because he was so smooth. You know, he was a singer like you. He was laid back. look, Sly Stone came to Pop's one day and said hey Pop give me the bag and Pop said what you talking about he said come on Pop, give me the bag, I know you got it because he was so laid back he thought he was on drugs yeah they thought he was

47:04and Purvis my brother had to tell Daddy what Sly was talking about and Pop He says, like, you come up, I'm going to choke you, boy. You know I don't do that mess. That's too funny. Yeah. Wow. It was so funny. That is funny. Yeah, because they would all talk about how laid back Pop sing, you know, and his voice just flowed. Yeah. But he taught us circle beyond broken. And we sang it with Johnny Cash on his television show. it was the Staples family and the Carter family that was years ago that must have been fun it was fun it was for one of his specials oh those TV specials yeah I love watching those yeah and I sing it all that's on my list on our shows and Pop said man

48:07because we look at us as a family. That's our circle. And he put us in a circle when he started giving us the voices to sing. I can just picture it. You're sitting down in a little circle at home. Yeah. Let me tell you, I'm going to sing some of it for you. You sing it too. Which key? Well, yeah. I don't know what key I sing in. Now you know that. I was thinking G. I was standing. Too low? Huh? Is that too low? No. That's good. Would you say key that is? That's G. Okay. That's a shame I don't know what key I sing at. No, it's not. It probably has changed over the years. I probably have. Yeah. I sing at some different keys, though, in our shows.

48:54But it's all right. I don't need to know what key I sing at. I can do it in any key. You just tell me. Oh, no. I think that was good. Okay. I was standing, is that where you were? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Window on a cold and cloudy day When I saw the hearse come rolling Oh, to carry my mother away Will the circle be unbroken By and by, Lord, by and by There's a better home awaiting In the sky, Lord, in the sky

50:05Oh, I told the Undertaker Please drive slow Cause this lady That you're hauling Oh, I hate to see her go Will the circle be unbroken By and by, Lord, by and by There's a better home awaiting In the sky, Lord, in the sky I will follow close behind her Try to hold up and be brave But I could not hold my sorrow When they laid her in the grave Will the circle be unbroken By and by, Lord, by and by There's a better home of waiting In the sky, Lord, in the sky In the sky, Lord, in the sky In the sky, Lord, in the sky Oh, yeah You sound just like Cleetie Oh, really? Yeah, I heard Cleetie in your voice Girl, don't stop me crying.

52:30I tell you, my sister Cleety, she had the best soprano voice. Really? So you were low and she was high. Yes. Yeah. So you complimented. And I credit her for the staple singer's sound. Really? Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. And look, Aretha would be recording, and she'd tell her sister Carolyn, now Carolyn, I want you to sound like Cleopha. Oh, wow. That's amazing. Yeah. And Carolyn told me about it. She said, Mavis, I told her I can't sound like Cleopha. She was mad about it. Aretha would be mad. Oh, yeah. But it's a different, Pops would give Cleety like a minor. She would go, like I know what I'm talking about.

53:23Yeah, you do. No, I know she would go minor in some places. But her voice, if you, on all of our old stuff where Cleety is singing, her voice stands out. And her soprano and Pops' guitar, that's the Staple Singers. I love his guitar so much. That tremolo, eh? And he taught himself. Well, that's what's good about it. It's just feeling. Right, right. It's simple, but it's got the thing. That's what it is. Yeah, it's got the sound. Feeling, right. How did he get that electric sound? Do you know how that came about? I remember when he got that tremolo. Because that wasn't typical then, right? No, no.

54:10For gospel music. No. No, and some preachers didn't want Pops to play his guitar in their church, and Pops had to let them know, look, you read your Bible. String instruments are in the Bible. You know, the harp, Pops would name them all. I guess, what's that other one? I can't call the name of it, but we just wouldn't go to the church if they wouldn't let Pops play his guitar. But he learned from a blues man, Charlie Patton. See, Pops was on this farm, Partridge Farm in Mississippi. And this man was a howling wolf. A lot of the blues singers were on this farm. And Pops would tell us how this man, Charlie Patton, would be playing.

55:04And look, we didn't know for years while we were singing gospel, our father was playing the blues on his guitar. Yeah, that's what it is. It's the marriage of those two things. And that made it so unique. Right, right. Right. But he went to the guitar store one day and he came back with this tremolo. He said, y 'all listen. Listen to this. And he was strummed. Elvis Presley told me one time, the first time, yeah, only time I ever saw him and the first time I ever saw him. We were in Memphis, and I was standing on the side. It was a starlight review outside. And I was standing over in the wing, and all of a sudden, he come in with one of his partners.

55:53They got these leather jackets on like they've been riding motorcycles. And we had sang. And he told me, he said, I like the way your father played a guitar. I said, well, thank you. He said, yeah, he plays a nervous guitar. A nervous guitar? He called it a nervous guitar. What does that mean? Because of the tremolo? Because of the tremolo. Oh, it's shaking. That was a good expression. I said, well. I've never heard that before. A nervous guitar. Yeah, that's what he, I'll never forget. And that was my meeting with Elvis Presley. Wow. I didn't know who he was. One of the guys, David Ruffin, who later sang with the Temptation, he was singing with a gospel group.

56:39He told me, he said, maybe you know who that guy was you were talking to? I said, no, I don't know. He said, Blue Sway Shoes. I said, that's him. That's him. That's the way he would let me know. That's amazing. Because of Blue Sway Shoes. Wow. But yeah, Pops played a nervous guitar. Did he laugh at that description? Oh, did he laugh? Did he laugh? He told me, maybe, why didn't you call me over to let me meet? I said, Dad, I didn't really know who he was. I was just, David told me who he was. Yeah, that was beautiful. I love that. That's a good expression of him, though, of Pops' guitar. Nervous.

57:16Nervous guitar. Because it does. It goes, oi, oi, oi, oi, oi, oi, oi. That's just the funniest thing I've heard. Yeah. Yeah, but, yeah, Daddy, that's when he learned how to play his guitar. and he was always playing it in the house, you know, after he let us know he had a guitar. Yeah. Because we didn't know until those guys wouldn't come to rehearsal and he decided we probably wouldn't be any staple singers if they had. If they had come to rehearsal? Yeah. So I thank them. Wow, for being not there. Right, not serious about this. They were the trumpet, and they had a good group too. Pops would sing lead.

57:58And Pops had a voice. He never went into his falsetto on the Staples Singer stuff. Oh, but he did that. Oh, yeah. He would go in there. He would, Ah, tell me what are they doing up in heaven today. And then he'd go, Peace, goodbye, just like a river, they say. Oh, Pops was back. Yeah. And I recorded that song with Tweety. That song? What are they doing in heaven today? Ooh. I'm not singing it like pops, though. Well, that's okay. You sing like you. I sing like me. Yeah. I sing like me. I'm so grateful to be talking to you, little lady. Thank you. You are so different from anybody else out here.

58:48Really? Yeah. Nobody sound like you. Nobody. Give me a break. But that's what you want, right? show. But that's what you want, right? To be your own self? To be different. Yeah, right. But I'm just honored, you know. I never thought I would meet you when I first heard you on the radio. Mavis, I love you. Don't know why. I didn't. I said listen to her. Who is she? Who is she? I'm still figuring it out, to be honest. Well, no. Well, you are a giant. You're sweet. You're a tiny little lady. I'm a tiny giant. But you are a giant. I tell you. I love it. And when I came to your show in Red Rocks. Yeah, we did a show together.

59:34Yes, yes. That was fun. I started it off and I warmed them up for you. You killed it. And I was nervous to go on after you. Oh, cut it out. I was. Don't you even try that. Of course I was. Girl, those people, all those people that came out for you. And I noticed you were doing some songs that I hadn't heard. Yeah. And every time you would hit one of those songs, the crowd would roar. That's so funny. Well, that's one of my favorite audiences at Red Rocks. Really? They're always very loving. Yes. You've played there many times, right? Yes. Yeah, we have. We have. Oh, with different people. Yours was the best, though.

1:00:14Oh, we had fun. We had fun.

1:00:23We had recorded a song together that Pete Renn wrote. I don't know if you remember it, but I was wondering if you feel like trying it. Oh, it'll come to me as you go. Yeah, yeah. Because I, that's been a while. What happened anyway? We were supposed to go on tour with that song. We were going to go on tour and then the pandemic hit. It sure did. Yeah, we were going to do a bunch of shows together. Yes, I remember. I was so happy. Me too. Oh, man. We will again. We got to do it again. Yeah, really, we will. Just going to do it again. We do it again. And set it up. You set it up.

1:01:27There's a place far from here Gonna make it my home It's where I belong When I get to where I'm going I'll be gone I'll be gone

1:02:10When my heart gets so tired that I can't tell time Don't you cry When I get to where I'm going I'll be gone I'll be gone

1:02:52Wish I could tell you that the sun was gonna shine

1:03:02I got a feeling that I still won't change my mind Running out of time

1:03:23There's a place on a mountain You can take my bones But I go home When I get to where I'm going I'll be gone I'll be gone

1:04:05I gotta tell you that it's all gonna be just fine

1:04:14But I don't wanna waste any more of your time You didn't waste mine

1:04:37guitar solo

1:05:20Oh, now you talk about a beautiful song. It's a beautiful song. Oh, my goodness. He wrote this a long time ago. Really? Yeah. I mean, maybe eight years, nine years ago. Yeah. At one point he mentioned Gosh it would be cool to hear Mavis sing this song I was like you're right But then you know I'm a little shy Sometimes I have a hard time reaching out And asking people to do things Don't be that way with me Oh now I know Okay now you know You can come to me anytime But it came full circle But not for like five more years And then I got un-shy And I asked you to sing it Yeah them. Yeah. Yeah, I was so, that blew my mind.

1:06:02I said, oh, wow. It's a great one. That's what I wish I could play a piano. Piano? Anything, any instrument. You never picked anything up? I picked up the guitar. Yeah. I told Pops I wanted to play that guitar. And he tried to teach me, but he wasn't taught either. And then there was a time when Pops was still frisky. I was young. What does that mean? I mean, he wasn't ready to, he didn't have time, he didn't have the patience. I think I took it the wrong way. No, I didn't mean going out on mama now. Yeah. You know? Gotcha. That's frisky too. But no, he just wasn't patient enough. Ah, yeah. So he gave me about, he got me a little training guitar, and he gave me about three lessons, and he was done.

1:06:50He said, Mary, I tell you what, babe. you go down to Lyon Healy and I'm 11 years old I don't know how to go downtown to Lyon Healy to buy to get lessons? yeah to get lessons from them and I told him I said daddy I want to pick it like you and Sister Rosetta thought but if I had learned if I had learned how to strum I think that would have made it easier for him to teach me picking is harder Yeah, I know. Yeah, strumming is— I know, that's—but I would have been happy strumming. Yeah. You know? I wanted to ask you about when you guys met Dr. Martin Luther King, and you kind of switched from singing gospel to singing these freedom songs, protest songs.

1:07:42Right. I read something about Pops meeting him and saying he wants to sing his words. Right. That is the most beautiful thing I've heard. That was something. Yeah. Pops, he just happened we were in Montgomery, Alabama, when Sunday morning, we didn't have to work until that night. And Pops called my sisters and I to his room. And he told us, he said, listen, y 'all, this man Martin is here, Martin Luther King, and he has a church here. He said, I've been listening to him on the radio. Dr. King had a radio show. And Pops had been listening to him, and he said, I'd like to go to his 11 o 'clock service.

1:08:27Do you all want to go? We said, yeah, Daddy, we want to go. We all got in the car and went down to Dexter Avenue Baptist Church,

1:08:38and we were ushered in and seated. Someone let Dr. King know that we were in the service, and he acknowledged us. He said, we're glad to have Papa Staples. And his daughter's here this morning. Hope you enjoyed the service. Well, we enjoyed the service. And as the service is over, the worshipers, Dr. King stands at the door, shake the worshipers' hands as they filed out. And Pops walked past, shook his hand. Now, my sisters and I did first. We shook Dr. King. Oh, that was a feeling. I bet. He shook his hand. And Pops, we had to wait on him. He stood there and talked to him for a while. He finally came on.

1:09:22We get back to the hotel. He called us to his room again. And he said, listen, y 'all, I like this man's message. I really like his message. And I think that if he can preach it, we can sing it. Wow. And we started writing freedom songs, march up Freedom Highway, Why Am I Treated So Bad. We switched over because we didn't feel that it was anything wrong. We felt like this was close to gospel. Yeah. You know, we're singing the truth. You know, but we want to, we joined the movement. And we would sing before Dr. King would speak. We'd go to the meetings, and Dr. King would tell Pa, Stabe, you're going to sing my song tonight, right?

1:10:14Papa would say, oh, yeah, doctor, we're going to sing your song. Why am I treated so bad? Yeah. That was his favorite. And people would ask me, he never talked to us girls. He'd never sit down and he would just say something, how you girls doing this morning? Y 'all doing all right? Yes, sir, Dr. King. Wow. But he wouldn't sit and hold it. He and Pops would talk. They would talk. People ask me, what did he talk to you about? He didn't talk to me. But what I did remember mostly of Dr. King was his laughter. He had this laughter when he laughed. Because most of the time, I would see him, he'd either look sad or serious.

1:11:02And when I'd hear him laugh, that would make my heart happy. Because I'd say, Dr. King is happy. And that would be most of the time when we'd be going to the meeting. and the men would be in a huddle down in the parking lot. And all of a sudden you hear Dr. King laughing. That made me feel so good. But no, he never held a conversation with my sisters and I. He was just asking. He said the same way every time. How you girls doing this morning? Wow. How much older was he? You were young still? I was young, yeah. How young were you then? I mean, I'm just in general. Well, in the 60s, this was like about 63, 1963.

1:11:45So I was born in 39. I'm not good at math. You were in your early 20s. I was in your early 20s, you know. I'm not either. Did you believe me? Yeah, I was in my early 20s. Yeah. But that was when we joined the movement. Yeah. And we became the soundtrack. You did? Yeah. Yeah. Congressman John Lewis would tell, oh, he was my friend. I bet. Now, he was my friend. And I went to his office when I did a Freedom album with Rykuda. And I asked him if he would write my liner notes. And he said, baby, you know, you and your family, y 'all kept us motivated, kept us inspired to keep on marching. Your songs, I said, yes, sir.

1:12:34Because I was surprised he remembered me. Yeah. I said, John, I hadn't seen him in years. And I was surprised he gave me a meeting at his office. Of course he remembered you. He did remember me. He said, yeah, baby, your family. And so he, I hate, I missed his birthday, invited me to his last birthday party, and I couldn't go. We were working, you know. But he was my friend to the end. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, Congressman John Lewis. That's beautiful. We called him Uncle John. Uncle John. Yeah. When you guys were writing songs, was everybody was collectively just sort of pitching in? Did Pops always have...

1:13:19Did he ever work on songwriting, like, on his own all the time? Yeah, he did. Pops was always jotting something down. Yeah. You know, and we would help him. We would put some words in on his song, But that's daddy's song we don't want any credit for. Okay. Right? We give them to daddy, all of us. Interesting. Yeah, we drop words. He goes, March of freedom's highway made up my mind. And I won't turn around. Made up my mind. And there's this one thing. I can't understand my friend. I'm proud of that because that was me. Yeah. Why some folk think freedom was not designed for all men? There are so many people living their life perplexed, wondering in their minds what's going to happen next.

1:14:11That's why we're going to march. You know, that was the very first one we wrote for the movement. And boy, we moved on. And we would sing that. We sing, oh, why am I treated so bad? Pops wrote that because there were nine children in Little Rock, Arkansas, trying to integrate Central High School. They would meet people. These kids would walk up there every day with their books in their arms, proud, and people would throw stones at them, spit at them, call them names, but they never turned their head. They just kept walking. That's amazing. And they were my age. They were, you know, so we would all be on the floor, pops in his recliner, and we're watching the news.

1:15:04It got so bad, and it lasted so long, the mayor of Arkansas, of Little Rock, the governor of Arkansas, and the president of the United States said, let those children go to school. And, oh, I wanted to, we all wanted to see this on the news. that particular day, the kids were walking. They get right up to the bus, and a policeman put his billy club across the door. And Pop said right then, he said, now why is he doing that? Why are they treating them so bad? And he wrote that song from that experience. I tell you, we have had a baby sister. I have seen a lot. I have seen a lot. and it just makes me more prayerful and more willing to sing my songs, you know, because I don't have to sing love.

1:16:08I don't have to be like everybody else. I've seen protest songs. I've seen singing to help us. Move it forward. Move it forward, right. Keep moving it forward. Right. And we're still going. We're still going. Yeah. And I owe it to Pops. I owe it to my father. You know, we went to South Africa, and these people wanted us to sing, wanted the black people to be in the balcony. Johannesburg. And Pops told them, he said, no, I'm going to allow my children to sing. He said, Dr. King just got that straightened out in the States. Yeah. And we're not going to sing like that. He said, now you can send us home.

1:16:48Do what you got to do. We're not singing like that. So they moved our show to the soccer field in Soweto. Wow. Soweto. It's all black. You know, this is where the people live in little matchboxes. Yeah. And it was the very first time that blacks and whites sit together. No kind of, I mean, that soccer field was packed. That's amazing. Yeah. And black and white were sitting right next to each other. But they had these, I've never seen a German Shepherd dog so big. The police was walking around with them, you know, I guess for just in case something went wrong. But it was peaceful. But see, during that time, they wouldn't let us go downtown by ourselves.

1:17:41That must have been hard to go at all. It was. Yeah. They wouldn't allow it. The kids would tell me, maybe we will call you. We will come see you. If they called, my calls would go to the white girl's room. She would be there, and she wouldn't let the kids talk to me. They wouldn't let them in the hotel. It was very educational, very beautiful experience. Intense. intense intense yeah yes

1:18:28I firmly believe when it comes to the holidays you fall into one of two camps someone who loves holiday music or someone who won't admit they love holiday music there's something about a voice you love singing that familiar opening phrase maybe it's Donny Hathaway maybe it's Mariah Carey that just flips a switch and you're instantly back into that warm and cozy headspace only the holidays can bring. For me, that feeling pairs perfectly with a cup of Starbucks caramel brulee latte. That's their signature espresso with steamed milk and a rich caramel brulee flavor topped with whipped cream and a crunchy caramel brulee topping.

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1:20:39Every December, we start singing. At church, around the fire, in our cars, with the radio turned up. But have we ever stopped to ask, where did our favorite Christmas carols come from? And what makes them so magical? I think it's probably one of the most perfect tunes to play and to sing. The voices are converging. They're adding this more complex and chromatic harmony. And it gives us that climactic arrival point. Hark is a podcast about the meaning and the making of Christmas carols. Get into the spirit of the season and listen to Hark, the stories behind our favorite Christmas carols. Available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at americamagazine.org.

1:21:30You've been on tour, though, since the pandemic a lot. You've got to tour in these little pockets of touring. And I'm really excited to hear that. I haven't at all yet. Where? I just haven't. You haven't been on tour? Not since the COVID started. Oh, okay. But, you know, I'm excited that you're out there doing it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm going everywhere. I'm going everywhere. And we're booked now on through November. You're doing a tour with Bonnie Raitt this summer, I heard. I always do it with Bonnie. That's amazing. That'll be my third tour with Bonnie. You've known her a long time, right? Oh, yes.

1:22:06She's great. Now, you know, Bonnie... That's going to be a show. I tell you, oh, it's always a good show. Yeah. But I used to be jealous of Bonnie. My father loved her so much. So you're jealous? Yeah. And I told her, I said, look, I didn't know if I should get some red hair or if I should learn how to play the guitar or if I should get real tiny because Pops loves me. And she loved Pops. She came to the house to see Pops when he was sick. And Bonnie took me so bad. Pops went upstairs. He wasn't feeling good. And he went upstairs to lie down. She followed him. She sit on the bed and she said, now nobody can tell me I haven't been in Pops' stable bed.

1:22:53that's Bonnie that's Bonnie it was funny but it was so good made Pops feel so much better he gave her a guitar and all of us were there we sang that's beautiful isn't it something how music keeps you going it really keeps you young it keeps you young and it's healing and it brings joy Right. We can't do without music. I know. No way. I get that feeling from you. Yeah. You know. Yeah. I'm passing it on, didn't I? You're passing it on, yeah. Well, I tell you, yours have brought me so much. I wish Pops could hear you say. Oh, I wish I could watch him play guitar in person. You know what he would do?

1:23:43He would tell me, now, maybe that's the way you should think. Oh, no. That's the way. He would. That's crazy. You know who else gave me that feeling always was Levon Helm. Is that right? Yeah, he gave me that feeling where it was just all music and it kept him going. Yes, yes. And I remember the first time I saw you on TV was watching The Weight on The Last Waltz. And I thought, my goodness, she is beautiful. and she's smoking all of them I couldn't believe it yeah he was smoking oh my god I was just like and you looked six feet tall in that video yeah yeah yeah you looked so tall who me? yes oh no you looked so tall in the video I guess so yeah you do we had one of those long black gowns yeah it was beautiful oh man I mean I'd heard your singing my whole life but it was the first time I zeroed in visually yeah yeah and that was nice I know you had our long friendship with Levon Oh, Lord.

1:24:47Yeah. Levon. I have an album coming out with Levon. Wow. And we did it at his barn, and he was right next to me with them drums. But I'll tell you about when we were doing Last Walsh, Levon was smoking, and Pops went back to—we had a break. Levon, Pops go back. They were tight buddies, Pops and Levon. And Pop said, Levon, man, you smoking two cigarettes? He had a cigarette. And Levon said, oh, Pop, you got to try this one. I don't think they were the same. Yeah, they were not the same. Pop said, Levon, man, I don't think that mess. But that daddy laughed about that forever. He laughed about that.

1:25:37But yeah, Levon, that was the best time. because we stayed there about a week. We would go back to the barn every day from the hotel. Making the record? Yeah. So when did you make it? About 10 years ago? Yes. Yeah. Because I was going to say, look, are y 'all going to release this record? Am I going to be dead and gone or what? But yeah, it's coming, I think, in May. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait to hear it. Yeah, it's been a long time. I love it. You know, now that he's gone, especially, it'll be so special. Right. Yeah. And Amy helped. You know, I told her about it. I said, Amy, they need to release the record.

1:26:21Yeah. You know, we're getting up in age. Yeah. And we might leave here. Me. No. So she said, maybe some of us are going. They got it going. Good. But yeah, that was a proud time. What songs did you do with Leave On? Did you do all old songs? Did you do that? That Nina Simone version? That's a Billy Taylor song, isn't it? I wish I knew how it would feel to be free. That's a Billy Taylor song? That's what my phone said when I Googled it. Because, I mean, the Nina version is... I believe it. But I think it said Billy Taylor wrote it. Really? And it's so funny. I saw him play when I was in high school.

1:27:03I didn't realize that. Yeah. But, yeah, that's a great song. Did you record that with Levon? Yeah. Yeah. I wish I knew. And we recorded Trouble in Mind. Oh, I love that one. Trouble in Mind. Yeah. And, whoa, I love some Nina. Nina. Did you know her? Oh, yes. Well? Yes. Yes. And she was someone I met whose voice was heavier than mine. Yes. Very much. I was like, whoa. Yeah. And, boy, she was bad. I saw her. So bad. I first saw her in the Village Gate. And she had on all white. She was playing that piano. Yeah. And all of a sudden, people, bam, she stopped and stood up. Do you people have cotton in your ears?

1:27:48Whoa. She told them all, of course. They were talking while she was seeing them. You have cotton in your ears? And I said, whoa. Go on, sister. But, yeah, we got to know, we got to be very good friends. That's great. We were in the Bahamas, though. Last time I saw her, we were in the Bahamas. And then she moved to New Guinea where Miriam McKeever was. And she passed away over there. But baby sister, we were in New Guinea. Don't you know these little guys? They were in the auditorium where we were singing. They wanted to have a coup against the president or somebody. Oh, God. And we got to the show and we're standing at the door.

1:28:38Pops and my sisters and I, and this man is saying, staple, staple. That's all we could understand was staple. Man. You know, and he was telling them. So they still came in with the guns, and they stood on the side of the stage in the wings where we were. And as I was singing, I would look over there a little bit, and they would be just dancing. That is crazy. Yeah, y 'all done scared us to death. You have gone to some wild times places. You've had it. Yes, yeah. Wow. Yeah, so we made it through that one. I do have one more question if you feel comfortable talking about it. Yeah. I was curious about songwriting and the story you told me yesterday.

1:29:31Yeah. That broke my heart. You know, it's been so long ago that I'm surprised I even brought it up. I mean, I don't know. Somebody said something about songwriting, and it did. This man, you know, I had written my three songs, and he was at Stax Records. He wanted all of my publishing. Yeah. And I'm on the phone telling him, no, I'm singing 12 songs on the album. You know, you take all that publishing. But mine, my father's always taught me I should get 100 % of my writers and publishing. And he talked to me like, all right, Miss Staples, all right, I understand. Yes, all right, we'll do as you like.

1:30:24And I'm thinking I've won. Yeah. The record come out, and it's on a different label or something. And it's me singing. And then they have songwriter unknown. A song you wrote? Yeah, the song that I wrote. Wow. And I said, well, you know, it was so long ago. You know, no need in me trying to fix this now. But that broke my heart. And you didn't write after that. I didn't write any more songs after that. But that's the sad part. But you still make all songs your own. Yeah. Yeah. But that's just, you know, that stuff happened so much back then. That's crazy. Where people would just get... You know, it's a shame the way people are treated.

1:31:16Yeah. You know, it's not just me. You know, I'm sure the record business has been tricky. Tricky, tricky, tricky. It's tricky, but it was much trickier back then. Yeah, yeah. Way back, that was, and I was doing stuff, you know, I was afraid because I was, these were secular songs. Yeah. And you do something secular against the gospel stuff. I was lucky. I don't know how it happened. I recorded a house is not a home. I recorded a second. And the church people didn't say nothing about it. Yeah, because you got in trouble for that. I could have gotten in trouble. You could have gotten in trouble.

1:32:00But they didn't. You know what they messed with? I'll take you there. They wanted to put us out of church. Oh, wow. They said the stable singers are singing the devil's music. Wow. The devil's music. I said, you got to listen to our lyrics. That's crazy. They heard this beat. Yeah. And then people would jump up and dance on I'll Take You There. But up until I'll Take You There, we just sang with my father's guitar. We didn't have no rhythm section. We just sang with daddy's guitar. But when this rhythm section came on I'll Take You There, we sang in the devil's music. It sounded different. I told him, I said, look, we're telling you I know a place.

1:32:42Ain't nobody crying. Ain't nobody worrying. That's a gospel song. It's a gospel song. That is a gospel song. I'm talking about taking you to heaven. Yeah. I mean. And lo and behold, after all the interviews we did talking to these people, they invited us back to church. We go back to church. The first song requested in the pulpit, I'll take you there. You know, I said, you know, you just don't know what to do to please people. It's true. That's why you got to just speak your truth. Yes. Sing your truth. and spread some love. Spread love. Put out love. Yes, put it out there. And that's what you do.

1:33:23I'm going to do it. I'm going to keep on doing it. You are my favorite ball of love. You are my little sweetheart. I love you so much, girl. I love you. Do you have one more song in you? Or can I play you a song and you chime in if you want? Yes. And we'll end it. We can. Let's do it. The album, Pops made the album that song Friendship oh yes and then Jeff and the crew they kind of fixed it up right and recorded all like you weren't happy with it and it never got released that's right and Tweedy did all that for Pops album that's his last work and I wanted to put it out there but I wanted to put it out properly and right and uh so he re-recorded all the stuff that what you weren't happy with right yes he took the tracks of pops and you guys singing and i was so pleased i come up in here to listen and tears just flowed yeah you know my sister yvonne and i we we came to check it out thank you jeff pretty oh it's a beautiful recording and it's a great song it is that's a pop song Yes.

1:34:43Yeah. It's a good song. It's a really good song.

1:35:10Say what's wrong My long time friend Something's bothering you Tell me what the problem is I see what I can do There's a times we disagree We agree more than we don't We won't always see eye to eye But we will more than we won't Cause we got friendship The kind that lasts a lifetime Through all those hardships You know you're a friend of mine We got friendship The kind that lasts a lifetime Through all those hardships You know you're a friend of mine

1:36:22You want to sing what? Oh Or not Talk to me Oh pal of mine If you feel you can't go home Don't you sweat It ain't over yet This bond was sharing strong I've been where you are right now You saw me through it all I leaned on you, now you can lean on me I bet I won't let you fall Cause we got friendship Kindly lasts a lifetime Lifetime, through all the hardship, you know you're a friend of mine. Cause we got friendship, the kind that lasts a lifetime. Through all those hardships, you know you're a friend of mine. If you're out on the street I'll take your hand You're hungry I'll give you food If it's money you need I've got some to say If you're sick I'll visit you I've been where you are right now You saw me through it all I'll lean on you Now you can lean on me But I won't let you fall Cause we got friendship The kind that lasts a lifetime Through all those hardships You know you're a friend of mine We got friendship That kind of lasts a lifetime Through all those hardships You know you're a friend of mine Through all the hardships You know you're a friend of mine Through all the hardships You know You're a friend Of mine

1:39:07I had to fight to keep him crying, girl. I love that song and I love you. Thanks for talking with me. I'm so happy you invited me. I've never done one of these what do you call it a podcast well I'm honored that you joined me thank you Mavis you are loved by all who know you thanks for everything always I hope so baby sister thank you I'm just playing along with you

1:39:46thanks for listening to the show that was Mavis Staple She's incredible. Yeah, that was a fun win. I just want her to call me and tell me everything's going to be okay because I would believe her. We should just call her. Hey, can you tell me everything's going to be okay? I'm sure she doesn't know. She probably needs to hear it too sometimes. It's true. Yeah. It's true. She is not alone. In fact, let's wrap this up so we can go call her now. We're going to go call Mavis now. Thanks for listening to the show. Thank you.

1:40:20Our show is recorded by Mark Greenberg at The Loft in Chicago, mixed by Jamie Landry, and additional engineering by Greg Tobler. Produced by me and Sarah Oda, Sarah Oda and moi. Photography by Shervin Linnez. Artwork by Eliza Frye. See you later.

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