Jerry Cantrell

0:06Pushkin.

0:11Jerry Cantrell has been the lead guitarist and songwriter for Alice in Chains since the band formed in 1987. By the mid-90s, after a run of multi-platinum albums, Alice secured their spot as one of Seattle's big four grunge bands along with Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, and Nirvana. Legend has it that the band's early whirlwind of commercial success wreaked havoc on the personal and professional lives of the band. In 2002, lead singer Lane Staley overdosed and died after more than a decade of battling drug addiction. Amidst the turmoil, Jerry Cantrell found solace in continuing to write and release music, both as a solo artist and as a member in Alice in Chains.

0:48He's never stopped playing. In 2021, he released his critically acclaimed solo album, Brighton, followed by last year's hard rock opus, I Want Blood. On today's episode, Leah Rose talks to Jerry Cantrell about how he's drawn to the art that exists in the shadows. He also talks about how getting sober over 20 years ago has influenced his songwriting, and he remembers the time he tried to pass a demo tape to Axel Rose only to see a security guard throw it in the trash. This is Broken Record. Liner Notes for the Digital Age. I'm Justin Richman. This is an iHeart Podcast. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

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2:35Whether you're a music journalist, passionate fan, or someone who loves understanding creative processes, Claude matches your curiosity about what really drives great artists. Try Claude for free at Claude.ai slash brokenrecord. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard, which I can appreciate as someone who holds themselves to lofty if not ridiculous standards, especially with the car I drive. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level.

3:13The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them. Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. i wanted to ask you a couple questions about the new album i want blood yeah it's your fourth full-length album released back in october i was curious now that the album is out and you've had a chance to sort of like hear what people are saying about it is there anything that you've heard that surprised you like anything people are picking up on or noticing i mean i'm really i'm really digging that that people are connecting with it you know that that's that's always the that's always the first goal you know you start off every every song or you know or a collection of songs or album you're trying to kind of satisfy uh an audience of one or or or five the group of you you know what i mean so it's it's really trying to make something that you guys are excited about or i'm excited about and uh and so that that box obviously obviously gets checked with the decision to release because I wouldn't put something out that I didn't think was good.

4:28Yes. So the box for me is checked. I'm really satisfied and really excited about the songs and the energy, the performances, the people that I got to create this music with. And the thing that I guess I'm grateful for is that people seem to feel like there's a lot of challenge to this, the writing and execution of the album. And that makes me feel good because I certainly felt like my face was pressed against the ceiling of my abilities on all levels of this album, singing, writing, producing. And that's a good place to be. You want to be in a slightly uncomfortable, like, hey, whoa, can I pull this off kind of headspace because you were allowing yourself to grab stuff that you didn't know was attainable or reach a branch that you might not even be be reaching for you know what i mean but like you're just feel like you're flailing about and some and that's where you find some really cool stuff you know instead of trying to be safe and i've never really gone about making music with that mindset i'm not trying to recreate old tunes or old records or or rough myself i'm trying to make something new that i that i haven't made before you know and you can always count on you can always count on sounding like yourself i can't really do anything else.

5:47And so that's a bonus, you know, to be able to have that sort of a thing that's identifiable, I guess. And that frees you up to go wherever the hell the music wants to take you. So it's as much a surprise to me every time I end a project and put it out because I had no idea or intention of what it was going to be before I started. Do you ever give yourself props? Like if you do get to a place where you're pushing yourself creatively, emotionally, do you take time to sort of like congratulate yourself or you always sort of just like have like the self-critical voice in your head? Yeah, well, I mean, after I'm done working on a record, I don't listen to it a whole lot.

6:29But since I'm starting up a new tour here in about a week, I'm going through all the materials. So I've been revisiting it or you'll run into people and they'll kind of talk to you about, I don't know, maybe the impact that it's having on them, that something that they really dig. And so then you're brought back to that mind frame and that discussion. And that always feels good. You know, like, yeah, made a good record. That's what you're trying to do. And it's fun revisiting it. It still holds up. I'm not sick of it yet. So that's always a good sign too. too. Has getting feedback from people, from fans about the way that certain songs have impacted them, does that change the way you talk to musicians about songs of theirs that you love?

7:13You know, it's really personal. What an artist's music means to me, you know, I'm sure there's going to be a lot of shared stuff, what it means to them too, but it's also going to be pretty personal to them. And I might not know all the details, nor do I need to know all the details. I just need to know that it means something to me. And the particular story or slant that I took it as, you know, and, you know, the few conversations I've had with writers about particular songs. And, you know, I'll be hanging with, you know, Billy Gibbons or something a couple weeks ago and I'll ask him about Natic Mechanic, you know, like, what the hell are cues on here and blah, blah, blah.

7:48And it sounds like a piano, but it's a guitar. And, like, you know, I'll be wrong a lot of the times, you know what I mean? So, like, it's always surprising to get somebody's personal take on it. At the flip side of that coin, it's also cool leaving the mystery there and leaving some space for the creation of your own story to connect to a piece of music or art or film or whatever it is, a play, a book. I know that you and Duff McKagan are good friends. You guys play music a lot together. You guys hang out, watch football. the first time like when you first started hanging out with Duff what did you ask him about Guns N' Roses?

8:30Boy I think I probably told him like when I finally connected with this band I mean I was aware of the band and a lot of my favorite bands I don't like instantly you know yeah and so because they were so huge and blowing up I mean I like I like rock and roll and they have roots of all the stuff I love Aerosmith and you know good funky R &B fucking nasty rock and roll and uh so you know overtly I liked it and it was blowing up but I didn't connect with the record and and I think I listened to it for about a week and and I don't know I was I think I told him a story I was living in an apartment downtown behind the Seattle center and I still hadn't connected to the record so I decided to to drop acid and listen to the whole thing one more time and I decided of on that trip and I listened to the record, if I still didn't like it, I was going to throw it out the window.

9:21And by the time Rocket Queen came on, the drums and the bass got me. That's when it all came into focus. And I was just coming on to an acid trip. And I think I told him that story. That's awesome. It was a good one. And I got it. The doors of perception were open. Yes. And I connected because the thing that got me was his bass riff. Yeah, totally. Steven, you know. Oh, that's super cool. Wasn't there a story that you were at like a gun show and you gave a demo to Axel? Oh, yeah. Like all young artists, you know, sometimes you run on to somebody that's one of your heroes and you pass them on your demo tape or whatever.

10:03Yeah, I was actually, like I say, I lived right behind the Seattle Center and that's where they were playing. So, yeah, I handed it to his security guard and his security guard threw it away as they were walking. it wasn't Axel's fault I told Axel that story too and we laughed about that as well well at least it wasn't him it was the security guard yeah it was the security guard yeah I was having this debate with someone who I work on this show with and I wonder I'm just curious what your answer would be who do you think is the best American rock band oh man of all time I'm so bad with best I know, I know, me too.

10:43It's an impossible statement, you know what I mean? Yes. You want to be one of the best, you know, and there's so many American rock bands. Just American, yeah. So you can throw out a couple. I'm just curious where your brain goes. Oh, I don't know. I mean, like, you know, Aerosmith's got to be up there pretty close to top of the list. You know, GNR, Metallica, those are three good ones, yeah. Okay, yeah, that's good. We were saying also he brought up Grateful Dead and The Beach Boys. Yeah, I'd go with the Beats. I appreciate the dead, and I'm sure you've had this experience. There's deadheads, and then there's people that don't get the dead, and I'm one of the people who never got the dead.

11:23I appreciate them as musicians, and I respect, full respect for the connection they have with their fans, but it just never really spoke to me. Beats Boys, yeah, for sure. Beats Boys were, early Beats Boys is badass. Yeah, yeah, totally. Okay, let me ask about a couple of the songs on the new album. The opening track, Vilified. Can you just tell me the story about how that came together? And especially, I love the like little, the hey, yeah, the repeating bit. It's so catchy and it's so good. And it sort of is like reminiscent of some old Alice songs, I thought. So tell me about writing and arranging that one.

12:05well the music is it's a it's a really bizarre piece of music and it's in like six and seven and i think maybe maybe there's goes a section that goes to eight too so it's weird time signatures it's just four and a half minutes of fury you know once it once it starts it does not stop and i remember coming up with it in two sections both at a sound check once when i was on tour on the Brighton tour. I was messing around with the riff and the band kind of jumped in with me and kind of played it. And then on another sound check with Alice or rehearsal room or something, I brought that up and I was like, that's a good one to file for future use.

12:47And it ended up working out that it ended up being on that record. But it's just weird, but it's also really kind of got a pop element to it as well. it's this weird psycho metal pop song uh and it's got a lot of energy and you know the last two records i've done brighton and i want blood two things have happened for me and i don't know if it's going to continue but it but it's odd because i never know what the record's going to be called until way after like when everybody's like what the hell are you going to call this thing so it's the last thing that you normally come up with and on both of these records i had the title right off the bat importantly because i had written vilified and i had also written bright and i'm like those are great you know and those are great songs it gives it's a good title for the body of work it seems to be a good descriptor you know what i mean so that vilified was a contender you know for for an album title but but i guess my my point being i knew what i was going to call them i knew what the the how the albums were going to open and vilified was always the opener and it comes to the closer.

13:51So I came in almost with eight out of nine songs in the position that they're on. I had them written out in order, like how the album was going to go. And it ended up being pretty close to the mark on Brighton and I Want Blood. And vilified. I mean, it just, you know, I think that we're living in a really interesting time, you know what I mean? And I think that everybody's got an opinion and is rushed to share it with everybody and at each other's throats and pointing fingers. And we're dealing with a different time, with a new time, with new toys and new technology. And I don't know that we've necessarily learned how to use all that stuff mainly.

14:34Yeah. and maybe that song just kind of like a like pointing out that fact and maybe being a call to you know be a little cooler with each other be a little more accepting yeah and then how did you come up with that the catchy bit you know i just it always starts with the music so generally it always starts with the music i'll get the music together so i got those three parts the the main riff and then the and then the the the b section with the da da da da da da da da you know and then the slow stomp that comes after that. I'm like, this is a good song. And then you get that together. And it can happen really quickly with sections.

15:13And while you're listening, I do a lot of listening in my car, old school. So I'll listen to the demos that we've made or sometimes right off the bat, I'll just pop a good vocal. I'll have a vocal idea that will go through my head. So I'll sing some nonsense lyrics to get the melody line down until it works. And then the next one, what the fuck are you trying to say with that melody? So that's usually the very last thing, the subject matter. Are you conscious of when you hear a new song, like not a new song of yours, but somebody else's song, are you conscious of what part of the song you pay attention to most, whether it's the lyrics or the melody or a certain instrument?

15:55There's so much freedom in music. You know, I mean, basically, if you kind of break down songwriting to structure, you know, you're talking about intro, a verse, a bridge, a chorus, and maybe like a middle eight, you know. So that's the thing. But there's so many ways you can play with that and sounds and what somebody is trying to get across. And, you know, I'm a big fan of film. I still watch tons of movies, you know, good movies, crappy movies. It doesn't matter. I just like movies and music is a big part of film and the storytelling of that. So, of course, I'm always keyed into the music aspect of telling a story.

16:35And that's really what I'm trying to do is make a little mini movie by writing a song, like a little scene. I want to be transported to some place that I've never been to or maybe be reminded of a place that's familiar to me. Like, hey, that's kind of cool. You know, like that brings me back to this thing. And that's fucking cool. I like that, you know. And it's a shared experience, but, you know, there's only 12 notes. And there's, you know, basically songs are three parts, three or four parts. And, you know, the math of it is pretty simple. But it's so, so intricate and unique. And the way that the lens of everybody, that all of that flows through, those basic elements flow through.

17:16and when somebody's able to put those into like a song that makes you feel and takes you on a ride or makes you want to play it again, like call somebody and go like, man, have you heard this, man? That's cool, man. You want to be part of that story and I think that's what we're all trying to do. Can you remember the last song that you were super moved by that maybe you shared with someone else or you couldn't stop listening to? uh i mean i'm in i'm in me mode right now so i haven't really you know i haven't really listened to a whole lot of stuff but uh i was watching there's i was watching the accountant last night and there's like a really cool i forget the it's with ben affleck he's like some like a autistic hitman kind of dude oh wow and uh but there's a song in that soundtrack and i can't remember off the top of my head what it was and also up in the air i might be in a arbok arbok tune it's fucking cool as shit i really like i like the black keys a lot they're they're talented and i'm watching the agency and it's it's got that great jack white song in it too he's he's pretty fucking badass as well yeah he is badass i think i heard you in another interview talking about an album he did where there was like an ep like hidden in the album yeah inside the grooves of the album is another it is an album groove and then inside the album of that groove is an ep that's so cool i've never heard of anything like that that's like how that dude's brain works yeah is there any other genre of music outside of rock that you are fanatic about or that you just know a lot about i just like good music man i don't care about the style man i like i like blues i like r &b i like i even i even like some hip-hop you know i like uh soul i like country like jazz like metal you know i mean yeah uh i like classical you know some classical shit it's just fucking amazing you know what i mean it's still great yeah and what you know it it's it's such a personal music is such a personal thing like what what connects i'm not like hunting for stuff.

19:28I'm only hunting when I'm trying to make something myself. You know, it's just like the rest of life is just, you know, lucky happenstance when, when you turn on the radio or you see something in a movie or you, or you go to a show and, or you're playing a bill at a, at a festival and a band comes on and kicks you up that you don't know about. Like, holy shit. I mean, that's, that's the cool part. Somebody's, there's a lot of us out there still doing it. And that gives me the reason why I do it in the first place, you know, it's not supposed to speak to everybody, but it finds its people, you know, I mean, each band, each song, each piece of music somewhere, it's kind of eternal in a respect, at least longer than a lifetime.

20:09I don't know if it's like all time eternal, but once it's out there, it's there for people to find, you know, throughout the generations. And I think that that's a pretty magical thing. And that aspect has never been lost on me. And so like anytime I hear something that makes me feel or like, fuck, that's cool, man. That's a beautiful thing. We'll be right back with more from Jerry Cantrell after the break. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts, at an Oocla speed test, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage.

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22:53Try Claude for free at claude.ai slash brokenrecord and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard, which I can appreciate as someone who holds themselves to lofty if if not ridiculous standards, especially with the car I drive. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them.

23:31Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. We're back with more from Jerry Cantrell. Do you have any tricks that help you unlock, you know, if you're having like writer's block or you don't know where to go with a song if a part is missing, do you have any things that you can sort of like trick yourself into coming up with ideas? Well, there's a couple ways you can go about it. Well, one is leave it alone, walk away from it, you know until if you just keep banging your head against it and it ain't happening you can't fucking force it you know what i mean yeah but you still you can take attempts at it now and again when you when you're like fuck that's cool man it's it but but if it ain't happening leave it alone move on to something else you know uh two go to somebody else you know go to go to sean go to duff go to tyler uh go to big or max like like yeah what do you think about this man i like i'm I don't have an idea here.

24:37And bounce that off of people that you trust, creative people, and that's a good way to jostle you. If it's not the part, it might be something to challenge you of, like, I can do better than that. You know what I mean? So whatever. Something to shift you off of the dead space that you happen to find yourself on. And then the third way is just to keep grinding, just to keep grinding at it. You know what I mean? lyrics for me are that that way i always get blocked up on that stuff the longest part of the process is is the lyric writing a lot of the time on this record i was blocked on throw me a line i had a really great opening chapter for the story and i had it set pretty good and and i had a had a good intro had a good uh good verse written down and and a b section and then it came to the second verse and I got completely blocked and I could I was blocked for a bit and I went to a I went and saw a film uh by Scorsese uh Killers of the Flower Moon has nothing to do with the song but a couple of scenes in that movie uh knocked me out of something visually and I was able to kind of continue the thread with that kind of like the fire scene in the middle of that movie where they're kind of torching the fields and stuff like oh okay I got it so it's you know go to another artist you know go to another artist go to another medium you know that can that can knock you out of out of your uh out of your staleness and give you a fresh perspective you know do you have to like take a voice note right as you're watching it so i do i do i talk it right into my phone or if i hear something i sing it or if i play something i record it immediately that's one another thing about the process i've lost not a ton not a ton because i've learned this lesson early on of like, oh, I'll remember that.

26:28And then, oh, right. What the fuck was that? You know what I mean? So I've always been a big recorder and a big documenter. I call it riff mining. And so I make sure when I find a nugget to make sure to make a record of it, you know what I mean? So you can always come back to it and refer to it, you know, and that it actually exists, you know, to be able to refer to. So. Yes. And then historically, how has it been for you? have you had success writing lyrics or writing music or arranging anything with like drinking or like, you know, some people can only write if they smoke some pot or whatever it is.

27:07Like, how has that been for you? Well, I've done it both ways and I've written some really good songs both ways. So I think both, both ways work, you know, I've lived through a period of my life where it worked and then it didn't work yeah yeah i try to try uh which relates exactly to what we were just talking about with the block if something's not working or you gotta find a new way to to do it so you know and that i went through that change personally about 21 years ago and uh you know i think i'm still still writing as impactful uh to me anyway impactful weird fucked up music like I made when I was fucked up.

27:46So I don't really think that that's a requirement. It is part of the mythos of being a musician and an artist. I think everybody kind of has to go through that period. I knew that was attractive and appealing to me, even with all of the signposts of early deaths and it not working out for people. Like, hey, that's not going to happen to me. I'm sure they thought that too. right you know what i mean so i don't denigrate it i don't put it down i've been sober for 21 years and i still will be able to get fucked up you know what i mean because it is fun it's fun getting outside it's totally trippy hanging out with weird people uh you know just different scenarios different different frames of mind that being high and and getting fucked up can can put you in so i'm not going to put it down because i did it and i and i did a lot of good stuff but you know at some point it stopped working for me luckily i i knew a lot of people that did what i that i did referring to some of the guys in the uh that i started playing with right after i got sober billy morrison navarro matt sorum billy duffy you know the guys who'd been through through what through partying and then gone through the other side of like okay this doesn't work anymore i gotta figure a new way to out to do this yeah all those guys still rock as far as i've last checked and and And I think I'm doing okay, too, as far as the music element.

29:11So you can do it either way, you know? Was there a time in your life where you thought drug use was glamorous? Oh, I don't know. I mean, it's just, like I say, it's part of the mythos. And you're a young kid, so you're going to do all the stuff that young kids do. I'm not a young kid anymore. So I can't do what young kids do. It would fucking kill me. So I got to do this version of me, which I like very much. I like life. I like the consistency of life now. Like the ceilings are not as high, okay, but the floors are not as low either. So, you know what I mean? It's a little bit more even and I like that consistency, so.

29:51Yeah. Have you always been drawn to dark things? Like you said, like you can write equally as fucked up things now as, you know, back when, but have you always been drawn to sort of like the dark arts? Yeah. like horror movies, books, like how far does it go? Yeah, I think it goes really deep. I mean, I was a huge horror fan. I mean, Stephen King is one of my all-time favorite authors. I like material that has weight, that's dark, that has impact, that shocks, you know. I love party music too, man. I just don't write it, you know what I mean? It doesn't connect to me as something I want to recreate.

30:27There's other artists and other bands that do it and do it well, and I enjoy it. I love that shit, man. But I agree with you that I'm kind of drawn to things a little bit more in the shadows and also something that's going to give you a good left turn or a good shock or a good punch to the face. Or maybe confronting some things and emotions and situations that aren't easy to talk about. I'm into music. So I think that's one of the aspects of music that is so appealing to us weird little monkeys. You know, it's a way for us to share things with each other without actually ever, you know, even if we have never met or, you know what I mean, we can still understand each other and communicate with each other and share stuff.

31:11And it makes the tough stuff easier, you know, because it's shared. It also makes the good stuff even that much more fucking celebratory because, you know, we're all feeling that way. So I think that that's a pretty apt descriptor. Do you remember as a kid when you started realizing that you were into dark stuff or when that just started overall? I don't know when it started. Dark to me. I don't know. There's a lot of connotations of that that I would take exception to. So what dark? So it's a bummer. It's evil. I think the word for me that's better is weight. something that's got substantial, you know, like a big, greasy, bleeding cheeseburger, you know what I mean?

32:02And so, uh, Gordon and I just, we, we always talk about making big, greasy, bloody cheeseburgers. We're fan-job cheeseburgers, but what that means is, is that's the type of work we want to make. You know, it's a sloppy fucking mess and it should have some fucking steak on it. There's no reason. It may not be nutritionally fucking the great for you, but it's just fucking primal, you know? So I've always been drawn to films, books, music like that, even classical type stuff when I was in school. So I guess that's the music I try to make my own version of, you know? I saw someone refer to you and Lane, your harmonies, as the Devil's Everly Brothers.