Jesse Malin

30:08The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them. Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that does it make you feel something as a car that stops short of amazing experience amazing at your lexus dealer so you became a singer songwriter and i did in a band called hope and i tried to do everything that i would do in the early 2000s yeah but i couldn't get that band off the ground i couldn't get us recorded outside of a demo we'd play with like the meat puppets and sonic youth and rad at red r from heart attack i had a connection into the noise art scene that was coming out of some of the clubs here.

31:02So we would play on bills with Live Skull and Radar Sonic Youth, Swans, and Hope did our time for a little bit. But it was a weird time for me. My mom got sick and I had to go back to Queens. I was living in my rehearsal studio on Avenue B and I had to take care of her and my sister. And so I decided I could move my gear. If I got a cheap used van, I could become a moving guy. so I started moving bands and gear from like rehearsal spots in midtown down to clubs and coming back at the end of the night sometimes I'd watch the show and anything furniture and pianos and dead dogs and everybody from Barbra Streisand to you know some junkie that's getting thrown out the window you know from there they're getting evicted and we'd go everywhere I met a lot of artists doing that and I had a rough five years between my mom passing away eventually and I couldn't get this band off the ground.

31:57So I ended up, after my mom passed, moving to Greenpoint, Brooklyn with a few friends and I kept trying to do this earnest songwriter thing. And I was living with this guy, Howie Pyro, who had been in The Blessed and been in a band called Freaks and had done all these things. And I said, let's just make a band for fun where I don't play guitar and I just jump around and roll on the floor and take my shirt off and yell and we'll make the band we wanted to see when we were little kids, like that five-headed thing, like the Dolls or the Dead Boys or, you know, Aerosmith or Rolling Stones, like what a punky.

32:28And so we made Degeneration and it was just for goof. And suddenly that connected because we just did it totally for fun. Suddenly the shows are crowded. It's a band, it's a gang. It's all people that knew each other from the hardcore days. So it was like kind of, some people would say a glam band meets a hardcore band. I don't really think of it as glam, but, you know, we thought we were doing something so different. We had, you know, brothel creepers or feet standing tall, tight pants and messy hair and messy mascara and had crazy dreads and hair extensions. And so people looked at that and talked about that and they listened to the song.

33:03So that became frustrating. You know, it was a good seven years. We made records in major cities. We had a good time everywhere else. It was like us fighting with the crowd. So in that period where you had that band. Yeah. You've got a tour to make money, obviously. Yes and no, because we got a huge record deal, and we had money. We broke it up so we would not take it all, whatever. We used some on the record, and then we gave each other a weekly or every two weeks. So we could stay in New York and become junkies and stuff, like a lot of people did. But we did want to tour. But at that time, New York, the 90s, we were like the big band in the scene in downtown.

33:43We didn't like to go above 14th Street because it wasn't easy for us. So we did tour. We went out with the Ramones. And, you know, you don't get paid a lot opening, but we learned a lot. And those guys were so generous to us. And I became friends with Joey, who just loved music. Like, his M.O. was, he wasn't about sex, drugs, or money. It was like, he just listened to music. He was, you know, kind of a real misfit and had a lot of health things, and was a creature from a different type of thing. So he just was so passionate. He used to ride on our tour bus. They were in a van, smart, saving money, because they knew buses.

34:17and we're in this big record company supported bus and he didn't want to be around his band he'd be sitting in there with us oh interesting i i love the jump from van to bus it's all about transportation it is it's funny and you hate the van you think oh man i could go my bunk now and i can listen to music and i can you know be alone and sleep but i feel like you're tighter as a band connectively as people like you get along better in the van like you listen to the same thing you get same kind of jokes it's like summer camp you know it's like there's a camaraderie that once you get in the bus everybody's like in this separate thing and at least that's what i've experienced but uh yeah we did tour and we we toured we did that band for seven years we were on emi that were on sony we kept getting we got dropped and then we got another record deal i thought i'm gonna have to sell shoes on saint mark's place or go back to moving furniture but like somebody said no you're gonna get another deal and like all the bands i knew they had that one shot in the 80s to try to be the next guns and roses whatever and they ended up right and uh and now this is your this is 90s you know grunge and all that stuff is in so we're trying to be the the reaction to that like we're not going to wear flannel and look like a farmer or gas station attendant like we want to look like a band and have this thing and we had a thing whatever the music is and whatever people feel about that and i like some of the songs we had a thing as people where it was it was real so we could be really intense or really down on each other but it was it was organic uh friendship gang connection to music that worked on stage and uh after about seven years of doing that and and you know went to europe and toured with green day and you know ramones and else all kinds of bands and some of our heroes and stuff and and then i just felt again like similar to heart attack that nobody could really they weren't caring again about the lyrics what we were singing about they They were just talking about our outfits and shoes.

36:10And at that point, the mosh pit came back again. We'd be out with Offspring or these bands. And the whole punk thing was the next wave of that, the 90s rancid Green Day Offspring type of time. And so the whole show was about if we can get them dancing all crazy. And they weren't listening to the song. So I'm sitting in the van. We're back in the van or on the bus. And I'm listening to Neil Young again. I'm listening to Springsteen. And now I'm listening to Count of Crows and Wilco. and there's these other things that are out there. Steve Earle, suddenly I hear that. And I'm like, wow, this has rock and roll, but there's songs.

36:45And suddenly, Lucinda Williams. And I called up Jory Ramon and I said, I'm listening to this woman, Lucinda Williams. Because he'd always say, Jess, what are you listening to? We'd call every day. And I said, Lucinda Williams? She's on a Steve Earle record? And he said, I know her. I was like, how do you? He goes, I was on like a songwriter paddle with her at the bottom line. And I was like, wow. And then years later, I'd meet Lucinda Williams. And I said, yeah, Joey. And she goes, oh, yeah, he sent me a song. He had a song he wanted me to write about a train. And he was passed away by then when I met Lucinda.

37:17But I just kind of was looking, again, to break it down, to go solo. And I watched suddenly people were coming out with acoustic guitars and approaching it. Maybe it was called All Country Now or whatever. Like there's all these different eras where rock and country, maybe it's the birds. And then in the 70s in L.A., it's with the Eagles and this. Right. You know, then you have rank and file in the late, you know, whatever, Long Riders. And to me, you don't need those separate boxes. I was like, I don't know. Can I be a solo guy? That seemed like very adult to me. I was scared. You know, I was like, like being in a band.

37:53What kept you, I mean, at this point, you're 30. Yeah, early 30s or something. It's a tough life. Yeah. A very hard life you're leading. You know, all these ups and downs. A lot of people did drop out. What kept you going? Just, I guess, the love of music, the drive. I always had a lot of drive and always excited about the next thing that I was going to make and having something that was there. If I woke up and I was like, wow, I don't know if I want to go on stage and hit myself with the microphone and scream Frankie for Degeneration tonight. I kind of want to play this acoustic guitar and have some people hear these songs.

38:29And I think there's a way to present this that could not be just me sitting on a stool with hush puppies growing a mustache and beating. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but like that I can find a way to be me and sing these New York story kind of songs and still be the songwriter guy, but come from where I come from, hardcore or whatever. And I really want to do this. I have this idea. And so somebody was nice enough to give me a weekly residency at a club called Brownies on Avenue A and go in there. And I grabbed a piano player, this guy, Joe McGinty, and we rehearsed in a little rehearsal studio.

39:05And I'd take my acoustic songs in and he'd play a little piano on them. And suddenly I was like, wow, there's a song there. And I was thinking about Tom Waits and I was thinking about Nick Cave and I was thinking about Nebraska, Springsteen. But then it came out to be something different and have a place to do this every Wednesday night for a month or two. One gig is like 10 rehearsals. Was there a time when you started writing songs in those voices? Were you sitting there going, this is a Tom Waits song. Ah, this is a this song. Was there a moment where you thought, wait a second, it's my song now?

39:40Wasn't so aware of it. Usually you have some smart aleck musician. Usually it's the drummer and you bring in a song and they say, oh yeah. and they start singing the song that you ripped it off from or whatever they think or and everything comes from something you know i think it's how you mix it up in the pot you could take you know all these different ingredients and spit it out in your own way but um i wasn't aware till i started to read the reviews and you know then when my first solo record came out in england first it got some reviews that were more positive than a lot of things i had experienced in a long time and let those people say you know explain what it was and i was like oh really all right you know they hear and it was nice it was the first time though we're like they got both sides of queen's boulevard the the borough like yeah simon and garfunkel and johnny thunders you know like they got that that i was you know a creature of of both those worlds that that and when you read a review they say you shouldn't read your press but when it they're getting what you're setting out to do which had never been the case with degeneration then you kind of feel like wow maybe i'm onto something here you know people are connecting to this is it harder to grow up in music in new york because in a lot of places it's not that their standards are lower but if you're the local band they're kind of happy for you there's not too many local bands and they're supportive you know when i talk to sleater kenny about you know being in portland it's like it's like everybody's lifting you up new york's competitive yeah and the and the even the critics are competitive and they're part of their competition is who can say the pissiest thing about something yeah new york i mean if you think about it the bands there hadn't been a big rock band i mean and even at a cbgb's blondie i guess they they broke but they hadn't been until i guess then Then came the Beastie Boys, the Ramones there.

41:32It was like a curse, you know? Sonic Youth, it's a rock band, a little different. Beastie Boys, not really a rock band, but those acts got big, but nothing. It was always, they wanted to sign, the record comedies wanted to sign something from Athens, Georgia at one point. They wanted to sign from Seattle or anywhere, and the labels are here in New York, so they really don't want to see you. They see you out and about. But I guess in the early 2000s, which was when I was doing my solo stuff, that rock and roll and New York got to really happen. And with Strokes, Yeah, Yeah, Interpol, all that. And even though maybe I wasn't, you know, in those bands, it was nice to see that really happened in a great way.

42:10And I remember friends of mine being really jealous of the Strokes and talking crap. And I was like, I know what that's like. I was like a band that people talk shit because their other musicians are, you know, competitive, jealous. And I was like, so happy. And yeah, maybe they grew up with similar records that I did, the Strokes, you know, but they had their own take on it they spit it out in their own way and it's nice to see but yeah it was definitely in our time not a place where the journalists wanted to write about what was going on here and you know they're looking somewhere else and and uh it's a competitive place in a place that'll break your heart like california like hollywood people go there to be famous and you know there's a big competition there's a bit you know it's yeah it's not what you think it's going to be i want to talk a lot about your solar solo career but i kind of i want to do it through this new album because i want to talk about the people and the songs but we probably should because we haven't explained um tell me about may 4th 2023 wow what was going on well that had been a year that my bass player and best friend howie pyro died who was in degeneration and i had done a lot of fundraising to, you know, concerts and memorials, even after he passed, but benefits in the beginning, he had a liver transplant and he had passed on that day.

43:24I was on tour in Germany and Berlin. I'd say goodbye to him through the phone or whatever, but it was a year later and we wanted to celebrate him. Some of his friends, his family, his sister flew in. And so I created a dinner at six o 'clock near my house, his Italian spot with some of those friends and family. And And we were going to go DJ and celebrate him. It sounds weird to celebrate someone's death, but he was morbid and he would have liked any celebration. So I'm walking over. I'd rehearsed that day. I had a couple meetings. I took a little disco nap. I was ready and I just was going out.

43:58I was going to eat and I brought some cash with me because it's an Italian restaurant. It's only cash. No credit card. And it was 12 people and I threw the party. So I was going to pay for the bill. And I'm starting to walk there and I run into Jonathan Tobin. And he's a DJ that's been around the world, plays old great records. And he's a friend of Howie's. So I started to feel my hips and feel weird walking the street. I thought it was the boots I was wearing or I thought it was my back. And as I ate the dinner, I tried to pretend that this wasn't happening with these 12 people. And suddenly I ended up in so much pain.

44:30But I kept trying to fake it. Ended up on the floor. My best friend, Jimmy G from Murphy's Law, a singer, hardcore singer, was there. And he said, come on, I'm going to call an ambulance. And I said, I'm going to shake it off. I'm going to shake it off. And I realized I couldn't. And then I realized it was time to pay the bill. And everybody's coming around me like, go over there. It was like Rosemary's Baby. Everybody had a different phone out. Like, do this. Try this. They're all over me, standing over me, all these interesting looking people. But I paid the bill with the cash to the waiter.

44:58I was like, take$80. And I was laying there. And then I tried to get up. And then I realized that my legs were just ice and numb. And so I said, call the ambulance and took me to one hospital and the next and took till the next day until I got a room. And that's how it is with that. And it took a while for them to figure out what had happened. And it's a very rare thing. It's a spinal stroke. And even at NYU here in New York and Mount Sinai, they don't see that many of them. And it left me pretty much paralyzed, you know, from the spinal cord. the legs couldn't walk everything below the waist and um so is it a stroke in your brain it's like a blood clot it's something yeah something an infarcation in the um in the spine where blood isn't getting to the area and it's just the nerves disconnected and uh so three months in the hospital because they're figuring things out and then it was half it was a rehab hospital still myu and they said you know you'll never walk again and you don't ever you know doctors weren't very optimistic.

46:02So a lot of friends of mine, a couple that have dealt with themselves in alternative medicine, they've had cancer and they've tried other ways to not just go with the mainstream medicine. And one of them called like 40 places about stem cells and found a place that specialized in spinal cord injuries and they were in Argentina and they gave stem cells and they don't do it here. The FDA hadn't approved this. And it wasn't expensive, but it was going to be six months in this other country and I'm already so shaken up. Now I lived in a walk up, so I couldn't go back that day. I left, I never packed, I never moved out, but I could never go back.

46:41So before I went to Argentina, which I would say yes to, I'm in hospitals. Then I'm in hotels, you know, and luckily people raised some funds for me through Sweet Relief and the music community. I was able to stay in hotels because I had to cancel six months of touring and all my stuff got put in storage. People moved me out of that. It was a rental, but I'd been there 10 years and it was really haunting to never go back. And, you know, so I didn't have anywhere to live. So I said yes to Argentina for six months and it wasn't a money grab and they were really compassionate, intelligent, hardworking people at this clinic.

47:18And not everybody spoke English and that made it challenging. And, but I got a lot out of it and I got stem cell treatments along with five days a week of five hours a day of really intense PT. Scary stuff. Putting blindfolds on you and you get you up on, they want to get you up and, and it did a lot. It was boot camp. Is part of it keeping your legs moving so the muscle doesn't atrophy? Yeah, in some way. And learning how to use other parts like the quads and the hips. And, you know, so if somebody sees me now and I can get up with a walker and I might have braces on below my knees, but I'm using other muscles and I'm using other things from doing it every day.

47:57And I was just convinced that, you know, I want to beat this somehow, beat the odds. And when you see an MRI and you see there's a disconnection in there, um, and then there's other things that go with just not walking that go with your body that make it really hard and, and, uh, not be able to tour, not be able to, you know, really do other things like I would DJ or was involved in some clubs I I had downtown everything, even after COVID was tough enough and we're just rebuilding. I thought that was the low, you know, I was like, man, my friend died COVID, but you know, the love and the support of the music community and my fans and friends and family, it was, it blew my mind and I didn't want to, I was embarrassed.

48:36I was, I didn't want to ask. I never wanted to need and be that person. I like to be the guy paying the bill or the guy that puts on the benefit, but it's a lesson to learn, you know, how to receive. So now we'll be two years in may and uh you know when i got back i could at least play the guitar and sing and and some of that the pain and the energy i had was made it hard to i couldn't write for a while i didn't you know people say just write songs lay in bed but there's a lot more to it and everything takes a long time now did you lose because with some strokes people lose mobility but not feeling necessarily did you lose both um i had no feeling earlier below my waist but now i have it my upper thighs there's some feeling and uh but down below i don't like you know sound gross i could step on a tack i wouldn't know or i could yes yeah i've burned my legs and stuff shaving under the sink you know like in weird times other things have happened i didn't even know you know so you got to really watch your skin and yeah all this fun rock and roll stuff uh does this do they think with stem cells this will it'll slowly come back or they believe that a lot in the folks in argentina And, you know, it's all new.

49:45Some people say, oh, it's like the Wild West or whatever, but it's not harmful. It's my own stem cells. I had to get my stem cells removed from like a, you know, kind of like a love handle area and then put back in. And the thing that appealed to me was the combination with the physical therapy and the stem cells. That really made me think that this is a good thing. And so when I was getting some progress and I was leaving there, I said to the main doctor, is this this stuff that's happening is this because of the therapy we did or the cells and she said we don't know that's why we do both and i thought it was you know and they're not trying to push this and sell you more stem cells and come down here like they're they're trying and they're figuring out the main doctor her father had studied this for 30 years plus and uh so i just went with it the other option was to stay in new york i didn't have anywhere to live at the time.

50:38My insurance wasn't covering physical therapy. They weren't covering a new wheelchair, you know, a bunch of things. Healthcare in America is tough, but I got to say, Sweet Relief really got together with my manager and my friends that all came through to put together where people could donate and then eventually benefit concerts. And this album, that was another thing. I mean, And it was pretty great just even emotionally to hear these songs, too. It was a boost of like, wow, okay. In the lowest points, I'd be really low in Argentina. And I didn't like the food. It's a very meat place. I'm a vegetarian.

51:16I just felt I can't walk. I'm away from my friends. And so it's been a ride. But I've always preached since the hardcore days PMA, positive mental attitude. And it was a real, all right, you talk about PMA now, deal with this. See if you can, you know, all right, you're so positive. Okay, see how positive you are now. One last break and we'll be back with Jesse Mallon. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at Oocla Speedtest, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage.

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54:07Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard, which I can appreciate as someone who holds themselves to lofty if not ridiculous standards, especially with the car I drive. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them. Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing.

54:44Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. the last few months have been sort of this incredible outpouring of your music you had the tribute album uh silver patron saints with a lot of friends a lot of admirers springsteen and a lot of other people you played with you've got a new single out and you had a live album out last year too is that right yeah right before this happened i had a record chasing a light a live record in like a DVD film thing. Yeah. It's kind of something we filmed a lot of it during lockdown pandemic and stuff. And it went with the record that we made at that time. So what's this been like to see this kind of outpouring of people and your music everywhere and great reviews for this record?

55:31It's been really touching, really humbling. I always believed in people and the power of people's energies and generosity. I'm an optimistic person in that way. but I know there's a lot of bad stuff in this world a lot of bad people but I've never seen it on this level and I'd never like to receive, I always like to be the person since I'm like 15 putting on benefits and you know the music community, it's not just the artists, it's everybody involved the fans, the people, I think they're the most giving, caring people of any kind of community and it's been overwhelming but inspiring and just a lot to take in, a lot to, you know with what happened to me has been so hard and each day is tough but that had made it so much brighter and yeah i guess there was funds that were needed and that's a real thing to hear these songs to hear the music and hear that or just to see the messages from people that that gave a lot to as much if not more it's also one of those uh tribute albums that they're faithful to the songs all these versions, but they kind of reintroduced the songs in a nice way.

56:42Yeah, you know, sometimes I'd listen to it. I mean, they came in slowly. I had nothing to do with it. The record was put together. You know, these two folks that one managed me, Diane Gentile, years ago, and my new manager, Dave Basin, and I was just in my recovery, and I left the country to go to South America, to Argentina, and I couldn't speak the language, I couldn't speak Spanish, I couldn't walk, and it was tricky. The nurses all speak in Spanish. and then little by little these songs would trickle in and they'd send me a song you know and have it on my iphone and didn't really have a sound system and i'd be in in my room or whatever and i'd listen to it and it would just make such a difference each time they came in just to hear how these artists uh that they took the time went in the studio gave so much of themselves and then to hear the song some of them were so much better in my eyes than the original or i was like wow i thought i was just fooling people with a crooked hat and a leather jacket there's a song in there you know like hey here wow it actually is something you could sing back and hearing someone else do it and and it was uh just wonderful to hear all those different versions and i felt like to me from someone that's been on compilations and tribute records i felt that the people the artists went went deep they weren't phoning it in like i could feel that they thought about it that's how it came across to me i want to talk about the songs and the people as a way of talking about the songs let's start with the the springsteen who you've played with before who who sang on one or two of your albums and then he does a just a great version of she don't love me now yeah it's just a it's got a great great sax solo tell me first about the song and then his take on the song we were going for it on my record new york before the war to have a song kind of like Lee Dorsey, kind of New Orleans soul, Sam Cooke kind of song with stabs.

58:36And we were approaching that and recorded the song. And I don't think on that album I captured maybe the right tempo or it wasn't ready yet. Sometimes songs need a little more time. But as we played it live, it kind of grew into one of the songs in my set that the crowds seemed to connect with. The guitar sound on that, on your version of it. I mean, I like his, but it's got a great... Oh, cool. That's Derek Cruz who plays guitar with me, who I co-wrote the song with. We were just jamming at a studio called Tu Casa down on Avenue B. I had this thing in my mind. Sometimes I free form, and if somebody's just hitting some chords, sometimes the whole thing will come out.

59:16That was one of those ones where he's just banging these things and hitting those stabs, and then the lyrics fell out and the melody fell out. But I felt like I wished we always could have re-recorded it a little quicker. but there it was and live it became a song and and i guess that was the one that everybody thought when they're putting the record together to to get to bruce and um uh danny clinch was really helpful reaching out the photographer um who was a friend and a fan and just a guy we've worked with and you know bruce always been supportive i mean he he was in touch with me a lot through this and and checked in a lot from the road in Europe and stuff.

59:55So they tracked it, actually, I believe. It was my band tracked it while I was away. And then they sent it to Jay Clemens, the sax player, and he played on it. And then it got to Bruce's studio, and then he sang on it. You wouldn't know when you hear it. I felt like he really took the time to get inside the song, but I never talked to him about it. Was that right? It just all happened. and they sent me the song, and there it was. I was like, wow, this is cool. And I think he kind of got the soul thing more than we did, but he's the boss. He's literally the boss in this case. I think what I like about both versions, but your version, it's one of those songs where you kind of hear the room, if that makes any sense, and you don't hear that so much on records anymore, no matter how much reverb they put on them.

1:00:46You don't feel like you're hearing the room. Yeah, I like that space. I mean, maybe it was something that harks back to a song I did on my first album, Queen of the Underworld, where there's those stabs and there's like a room and there's not a lot on it. I don't know. It's a 60s kind of approach, too, I think, in some way. Great version about you that Frank Turner does. Yeah. So tell me first about the song. That song is something I wrote when I was in Europe and some different experiences. uh one verse i was staying in a hotel where chet baker fell out the window and and he had put me in that room and he died and there's a plaque there and i was dealing with some can you still open the window it was only the second floor he must have been having some powerful stuff um but it's a you know a connection to somebody and uh it references a lot of travel and i guess i didn't want my second album to be about the road and you know all that stuff because i was touring a lot because it's such a cliche thing.

1:01:43And I tried to avoid that. But it begins a few songs about the road. And that Frank Turner version was the first song that I heard when they said, they're doing this tribute record for me. And this is the thing. It was the first song that came in. And I was frightened out of my mind. I was going to this doctor's office to remove fat to use for stem cells. And I was so frail and fragile. And I was in the waiting room and it came in and somebody forwarded to me. And I was sitting and I had to go to Chicago. And that was really hard. And I listened to that, and I thought Frank did such a great job, like beautiful.

1:02:15It's one of my favorites. And he just stripped it down and just changed the melody. And I've always been a fan of him. If you see him live, he's a great songwriter, but he also, he's a great performer. And Shane by Rocky O 'Reardon. Yeah, you're picking some good ones. Yeah, I'd met Rocky or Corch or Cat. There's so many different ways I pronounce her name or call her. I met her, we were doing some benefit shows for music and memory. We do this Clash tribute night that we did in London and New York a few years in a row. And the Money Goes to the Stromer Foundation and music and memory for dementia.

1:02:54And she came and sang Lover's Rock from London Calling, the Clash song. And we connected. And I would go see her play with other people locally. And she's a bass player. I had seen her play in the Pogues at Dance of Tyria, but it was so long ago. and uh i was asked to sing at shane mcgowan's 60th uh birthday and he was in a wheelchair it was in dublin and i went with uh clem burke and glenn matlock and some folks and i sang some stuff spider from the pokes we did some of the early stuff from shane's first band and i met him again and and cork rocky was the bass player in the house band and the house band had shane sing had bono johnny depp nick cave bobby gillespie and glenn hazard it you know it was just crazy and it was my experience when i wrote the song about being there and feeling like it was my forest gump moment like i'm on stage with all these people and it was like i felt like this new yorker you know that why am i here i mean i love shane and the pogues i wrote about that and she had been there and then i guess they asked her to sing that song and when i got that version back it must have made sense to her i would assume somewhere the song because she did it but i i'd loved the version.

1:04:03I just love what she did. And with the Irish accent, it just, it made the song so much more real. I like it better than my version too. Three of those. Three of those. Okay. Because it's one of your best known songs, Brooklyn. Yeah. With Dinosaur Jr. Tell me about that. When I lived in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, after my mother died and I had the van service and I was a moving guy, me and my friends scratched enough money together to have a first floor of a three level house or whatever and i guess it would be 87 or something like that and there would be some girl that lived upstairs and she was very nice and knew some people we knew and we were the only city freaks in the neighborhood of greenpoint polish and italian and there'd be this crazy noise blasting this guitar that sounded like some i don't know what it sounded like it was so noisy and it was jay he was dating this girl he was up there but we never talked but i would hear him and hear him and then years later we'd meet in different places and talk about that and somehow that you know we got a little friendly but um he i guess was contacted and agreed to do the song and and uh we we'd been a little bit in touch but not during that time of this accident for me and i just love the way they played he changed it up he took some verses out he the drumming is great i think the drum rolls and it just has a sleazy swagger and very different um version so i was really taken in of course his guitar playing is really really cool so distinctive yeah just uh that was nice and bleachers they do prisoners prisoners of paradise yeah that that was another one where i heard it and uh a month before this happened to me i was in a dressing room in in brooklyn at the barclays and um seeing bruce springsteen and you know i'm just in this dressing room and it was kind of a strange thing he just usually after show sometimes they'll get a text bruce wants to say hello and so we went back and i had missed him at the garden so i figured i'll say hello and i get back in the dressing room and nobody really there's bruce and this guy with crazy glasses on younger guy and then in comes jan winner who coincidentally is in a wheelchair i've never met jan winner but he's nice and everyone's talking to bruce about the show i started talking to bruce about him meeting shay mcgowan recently he went to his house like We're just having some music talk.

1:06:23Bruce, you hang out with Bruce and you forget that it's him. He just becomes one of your friends that you grew up with and geeking out on music. It really feels that real. And he's just down to earth like that. And there's this other guy and he's talking about suicide with these goofy glasses on. I'm like, what's this? And he's really nice. And he's like, and Jesse knows. And we're talking about Alan Vega and we're talking to Bruce. And then we leave. Bruce says, you know what, guys? I got to go. He doesn't have one of these people to come in and say, you know, Bruce, we're five minutes. He just says it.

1:06:49He goes, okay, I'm out of here. yeah it's no problem you know being really direct it's nice i walk uh out into the street you know down and and the guy that with the glasses says to me yeah you want you want to take a ride into the city you know you need a ride and i was like nah you know i'll go to i'm gonna go drink at this bar or smith street social or something you know i'm in brooklyn for once you know but i didn't realize who it was and i guess we had met before in some clubs but it was jack and so it was jack antonoff yeah jack antonoff and i was like god i should have probably taken a ride with him in the cab would have been a nice thing he's got a studio electric lady with neighbors he was nice i didn't realize who it was till after like oh that's who it was but uh somehow you know down the line someone that knew someone a friend of a friend that bumped into someone that manages him somewhere and in the summer and it came up and he was down to do i guess they sent him a handful of songs he picked prisoners and when i heard it back i was like wow this is like johnny cash suicide it's like such a cool like he's got his own spin like wow this is great and then they ask you what do you think this record should be called that was the only input i had i don't sing on it you know i wrote the songs but you know so i was like i don't know and then that song came in and i was like silver patron saints it's in the verse of prisoners that there's the title yeah he did so good i love it when it's different and then you know there's some people from the good old days like yeah hardcore yeah agnostic front and murphy's law and you know doing well god is dead yeah agnostic front did god is dead i was like wow really stigma but the thing that also besides the great versions and how much people gave it's just to have a record that for me has agnostic front and bruce springsteen on it and lucinda williams and murphy's law and And I was like, I guess I have a pretty crazy life, but it makes sense to me.

1:08:43You know, the last time I saw you, you were playing with Lucinda Williams. Okay. And it was a city winery show. And people know that she had a stroke and has come back and she's had various problems and is after that. And I remember during our interview, she was telling me how thrilled she was that you were working with her and what a great songwriter you were. so how is uh first of all how do you guys originally meet we met at the blue note at a charlie watts gig in 2004 yeah i think um ryan adams bass player might have been dating her billy and i don't know we all went there and um i just hit it off i'd been a fan and we started you know talking and just uh we stayed in touch and became friends if we were in the same city Chicago or LA New York we would get together and hang out and um you know have some really fun nights and great conversations and we found out we have the same birthday and in January and and uh I just felt a real connection and then I realized she lived in New York and she played in Queens where I'm from in 1980 she came and lived in East Village and lived where I was living now on Second Street and First Avenue at that time and we just uh stayed friends and and uh that was it.

1:10:01And then at one point we made a record, Sunset Kids, my second and last record for now. And, and my, her and her husband, Tom Overby produced the record and it was great. And we did a little writing together too. And we had such a great experience making that record was one of my favorites. We did some in LA where she was living in, some in New York. They love New York, her and her husband. So when she had the stroke, I was so upset it was COVID and it was just, everything was so bleak, but she couldn't play guitar and uh so i don't know if i offered or they asked but i ended up coming to nashville several times and sat in the kitchen and wrote songs with them you know and um we wrote a bunch and because she couldn't play guitar i'd play the guitar and i was just trying to help out and you know what would happen with these songs they have many we went through many and some of them ended up on that record and it was just uh you know a great experience when you in a kitchen table and it's your friend and you're you know bring out some carrots bring out some chips and dip or whatever and then here's a beer and then suddenly that voice pops out and you turn your head and it's lucinda it's like wow this is we're in the kitchen here but it's a good place to cook up a song and so i was helping her out with a stroke so that some of the songs made the album and one that i sang with her on stage new york comeback and stuff like that so yeah a few that I wrote with her.

1:11:21So it was really wild when I have a stroke, you know, after just doing this, helping somebody, a different kind of stroke. But yeah, it was just another strange thing connected to this. You talk about sitting with a guitar, writing songs with her. Have songs, not to say that songs ever come easily, have they always come for you? Has music always come? If you sit down with a guitar, do you know something's going to come out the other end? Well, the more you sit down, the more you'll get stuff. I mean, there is writer's block. It's a real thing. I was once on a songwriter panel in South by Southwest with a bunch of writers, and one was Pat DiNunzio, the late Pat DiNunzio of The Smithereens.

1:12:00He had a lot of hits and funny guy. So somebody asked a question, you know, hey, Pat, you know, what's the best cure for writer's block? And he said, ass in chair. and the thing is that you sit down and you you know you're gonna you might and you record a lot of stuff that i do it's nice you think it's garbage and garbage you listen back a week later or a couple days and there's something in there every time you sit down you might not finish a song and write bridge over troubled water or whatever but if you sit down you do it you're gonna get something i mean you know and then some days you're gonna hit some really good things so i think to stay active with it and then another thing i got was like the joe strummer thing like no input, no output.

1:12:38You know, you got to constantly, as a writer, if I listen to my favorite records, I'm desensitized to them. I love them. Unless I'm a little drunk, a little buzzed and I hear it in a different way, but otherwise they don't want to hear new things. They make me want to write. When I see a new film or I get like, when something's just coming at me for the first time, it inspires me to kind of do that. I used to carry a little notebook. Now, sometimes I write on the phone. People think you're texting. If I go to a film, I get ideas. It's just, you gotta cut out the world. We're always being inundated with, you know, emails and this and Instagram.

1:13:13And like that early part of the morning to not turn the phone on, that late at night, you know, like just to really get that quiet time and also to take things in and from all different things and then be able to spit it out. It makes sense that I didn't know you were so interested in film, but you've got very visual songs. You're that kind of writer. Wow, thank you. Yeah, a certain film, a certain period of time. But still, I just saw a movie, The Last Showgirl. It was with Pamela Anderson, which I didn't know what that was going to be like. How was it? Really good. Yeah. It's like a female version of the wrestler in a way, but made by one of the Coppola grandchildren.

1:13:50With that, after you had your stroke, did the music go for a while or were you sitting there? You spent, I'm sure, a lot of long, tedious hours in hospitals. were you thinking yeah well every little thing you got to do is taking so long and everything is very scary and you know this is all kinds of tests and but i did eventually get the guitar brought to the hospital and see what it was like and to see what it was like to sing and eventually when they got me taught me how to get out of the bed and how to get my body in a wheelchair was a big step and then eventually the guitar was sitting in the corner and eventually the wheelchair rolled over and I closed the hospital door.

1:14:29You know, as much as I play to lots of people all these years, when I'm alone playing a guitar or writing a song, it's a very private, you know, personal moment. And I didn't know what it was going to sound like. And I closed the hospital door and I just started to sing. And I think the first song I did was Room 13, which is one from Sunset Kids. And it's a song about being isolated and having to reflect on your whole life but i don't know why i just it's a key that i thought would be nice and and and i was like oh this is here and little by little i would play and didn't have a lot of time and eventually i i wheeled myself into we got me in a car and the back of a special cab or whatever and i got down to a rehearsal place but didn't have stairs and they put a mic in front of me and the band was there and suddenly those guys were right in front of me and it was super emotional but it seemed to go really well and I was just like wow this is still here you know and it was hard to sit and things hurt my shoulder getting over the, like it was a lot of different because I'm a very physical singer at least the ones I always grew up watching from the Bad Reins to Otis Redding it's like use your body and I'm nervous so like I move my body a lot but like it was a different focus and it felt good Well keep writing it's been just wonderful talking to you thank you so much for coming in Yeah, thanks for having me.

1:15:47Best of luck with everything. Thank you.

1:16:16is Ben Tolliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast ad. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.

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