Jim James

31:59And, you know, we were just like running around wild. and we were kind of like our own little version of the Rolling Stones in France or whatever. We were making our wild exile on Main Street world out there in Shelbyville. And it was so fun and beautiful and free. And there was this sense of... But there's always this sense... We always had this sense because nobody had ever liked anything that we did, we still thought at every turn we were going to get canned. So we're like, all right, let's make this thing as long as we can because this is probably our last shot. I think At Dawn and the Tennessee Fire and It Still Moves, I think all those records are as long as a CD can be, which is 74 minutes.

32:45Let's use literally every second of this fucking CD. We're still thinking in CD terms back then. But it's so beautiful because after that, most of my life after that, I was trapped in severe depression and severe... you know still whatever still had a lot of fun a lot of beauty whatever but it's interesting that you you choose that record because i feel like is we've kind of come into this new golden age of like this this peaceful golden age of like that's different from that because that was like that was a beginner's mind still yes and and youth and firsts and new and all that stuff and and but it's beautiful because we've kind of invented this this new new this new beginner's mind in the experience where it's like uh what else can we do that keeps this new for us and keeps this fresh for us and one of those things was finally being able to release control and bring in somebody like brendan o 'brien to work on this record with us that was something we'd never done before was It's like bring in a coach, you know, because we always either did it ourselves or we did it with contemporaries or equals or, you know, people that are kind of on the same level as us.

34:03And that's a beautiful way to work, too. But we're just like always like, what can we do that's different? And I think all of this kind of healing that we're talking about, I was able to like let go of so much and be like, I really think we could benefit from a coach, you know, somebody who's not our equal. he's not on our level he's like a step or two above he's done this hundreds times more than we have you know he's 20 years older than you know just all these things and uh really like connecting with brendan and and getting to see his viewpoint was such a a revelation for me and for us that i feel like made this whole thing this whole experience just this beautiful new beginner's mind thing you know it was really really special why did you pick brendan did it have anything to do with his past work he's uh you know produced most pearl jam albums engineered blood sugar sex magic for the chili peppers worked with stone temple pilots just a ton a ton of artists did it have anything to do with with his work or his sound specifically or was it more his personality Well, yes and no.

35:16I really love Evil Empire that raged against the Machine record, and he did that record. And I took different meetings with lots of people. And it's interesting because a lot of more experienced, bigger name producers or whatever often come with bigger egos. And there's this whole thing that they bring in that can be really hard to deal with, where they want to tell you how many Grammys they've won, and how many records they've made with Elton John. All this kind of toxic energy that we're always like, whatever, man. And Brendan, the great thing about Brendan is he never put any of that on us.

35:56And it was never about him inflating his legend or his ego. It's almost like all that he cared about was the music. He was a very nice guy, a very funny guy, but he wasn't interested in becoming best friends. He wasn't interested in being our spiritual guru. All he was interested in was the song. Is the song the right key? Is it the right tempo? Do the lyrics connect? And he always would have this great sense of being critical, but always offering a solution or always offering something that would help. And to me, it was just like I had never really worked with somebody whose mind worked that quickly and who never was there about their agenda.

36:44And he was always open to what we had to say too. He would never cancel out what we had to say. He'd be like, all right, all right, let's check that out. But it was so funny playing him songs because you play him one song and he's like, I don't know, man. And then you play him the next song and he's like, oh, that's pretty great. We're going to have to get rid of something else because this is pretty good. And it was just really inspiring. and I started writing more and more songs, even as we had started the record or whatever. Because we sent him like over 100 songs. What? And very quickly, he whittles it down to 20, his favorite 20.

37:19And he's just like, and we're talking about it. He's like, oh yeah, man. He's like, I'll just get in there. And he's like, pretty quickly, I'm like, nope, nope, nope. Did you recognize the pattern of what he likes and what he doesn't like? No, it was really interesting. Because I feel like he chose songs that we wouldn't have chosen as a band that were more like solo projects I was working on. And then other songs that I wrote even after he'd gone through those first hundred or so, it was really amazing just to see what he liked and what he didn't. And I was just really trying to surrender to that process because I felt like, okay, the universe is going to speak to me through Brendan and I'm going to just flow with it and see what happens.

37:57But it's really cool because there were some songs like Squid Ink is a good example of a song. song, Brandon did not like Squid Ink at first. And he's like, I don't know, man. But the guys really like Squid Ink and they really wanted to do it. And Brandon was really respectful of that. He's like, I don't know about Squid Ink, but the guys like it. Let's keep it in there. Let's see what happens. Because I feel like he kind of understands that universe thing too. Because we could go try it and it just falls flat and doesn't work. Or we try it and everybody loves it and it's great. And I think that whole thing was really, really interesting because it was this cool combination of like everybody's input but everybody kind of really removing their egos and I feel like Brennan's good at just channeling the universe as it comes through and really just being like he himself I forget how he put it but he's like he's like I think I'm just hearing things and I think that's how people want to hear them I don't know he's like it's just so interesting it's just really refreshing.

38:56As someone, if you can, if it's possible to make yourself sort of just like a fan of the band, listening to this album as a completed project, is it different than past albums? Like, how would you say it's different? I think they're all different. I mean, I think that's one thing we really consciously try to do is make every album different and go to a different place, work with a different person. We're always in a different frame of mind, you know, different life things have always happened i think that's one thing probably anybody could look at my morning jacket and say whether they like the band or not that we're kind of always trying different things we're trying different styles we're trying trying this and trying that and i really think this album's same thing because i feel like there's a lot of different flavors there's a lot of different styles yeah and uh and it was just really interesting because you know over a hundred demos or whatever we chose 20 and then we narrowed it down to 15 and then a couple didn't work at all and you don't know why.

39:52A couple of our favorite songs, and we're just sitting there scratching our head, and Brandon and I were trying to see if we could do anything to save them. And at a certain point, you're like, okay, well, those two didn't work. Let's see what did work. And that was a really cool thing, too, with Brandon where I feel like, he was like, sometimes I go in to make a record with somebody and we have 15 songs and 10 of them don't work. And you're sitting there with five songs and you're like, alright, man, I'll see you in six months. Go write some more songs. so I think he would have been honest with us too if he felt like we were at that point did you ask him about that Rage album that you liked did he tell you any stories or anything about other bands he's worked with we did talk some about things but that was the he'll share stories but he never shares them in this heroic ego way because a lot of people they're like into their legend you know and they're like sharing stories about it was midnight and Elton John and I were getting high in the back of his Rolls Royce you know and people are really into their own legend you know and it was really cool because Brendan like Brendan would share little stories here or there or if there was like a something we're working on he's like oh fuck yeah yeah you know one time this or that or this that but there's something that just really really appealed to us about his lack of inflating.

41:20He's almost reluctant to share stories. He really did seem humble, but also very self-assured in a really beautiful way, like a beautiful confidence where he's always ready to speak his mind and he's always going to tell you if he thinks he's something good or whatever. That was really, really refreshing. That sounds like a good coach. You said you wanted a coach. It really was, yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. One thing I was thinking about in My Morning Jacket, I saw that you guys have been called the best live band of your generation. And one thing that seems unique about you guys and super cool is that you can put out a studio album, and then you sort of can remix all the songs live on stage.

42:08So it almost gives the songs a different, like, more than one life. and that seems like it's really it could be really fun for you guys to keep things kind of like fresh and keep evolving them. Yeah it really is it's so cool and it's always funny when people say things like best when people use those kind of words it's like so funny it's like it's all it's all so subjective you know what I mean it's all such an illusion but yeah that's the beautiful thing because when you think of a song a recording of a song it's just like a seed. I mean, think about anything that grows, you know, you plant a seed and a tree grows and it looks this way one day, but then it looks different the next day and it looks different 10 years from now.

42:50And it looks, and I feel like that's kind of how every song is, is that it looks different every day. And depending on how you play it or depending on where it goes, some songs really lend themselves to exploding and improvising and, you know, and other songs don't, you know, the songs are like, all right, here we are. It's three minutes long and this is it. But even those songs, they still, they'll be faster or slower or you'll be angry one day, you know, it sounds different. You'll be really happy one day, it sounds different. But yeah, it's so interesting. Yeah, I was thinking about that with Out in the Open, the song, and just wondering how that was going to develop live.

43:30And if when you're recording songs, do you think about how it will develop live or are you just concentrating on the studio version we do talk about that a lot and dream about it and like oh man this is gonna be fun to do live you know we say that a lot but uh you also have to kind of let go and let it be what it wants to be and some things like out in the open is a good example of a song that changed a lot i mean that was just kind of a ukulele idea i had that everybody liked but they didn't know what would happen with it everybody liked the riff a lot but and i had a melody i had like the vocal melody but i didn't have any lyrics or anything and brendan really liked that riff a lot and really like he was like okay let's just take this riff and let's think about it let's you know the ukulele turns into electric guitar and the band comes in and it gets more exciting and you know like expands and that his excitement got me excited so i like started you know like working on it thinking about it that way and uh and i'm sure live it'll it'll grow even more you know It's going to be so good.

44:35That's just such a cool thing. Such a fun process how it all unfolds. Did My Morning Jacket go through like a Hamburg Beatles moment where you all just played together live like night after night, hour, you know, like big chunks of time to really get good? Like how did you guys get good initially? That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, I think we've just played so much. I think when you play that much, I think any band would probably agree with that, that just the more you play, the more it all becomes like second nature to you. You know what I mean? You're just kind of locked into each other.

45:15So when you start playing, I mean, now when we play, we've been playing together in this version of My Morning Jacket for 20 years, over 20 years now. That's a lot of accumulated time. And not only time on stage, but just time together as people. You know, and you kind of know each other more and more and more and more and more. And you think of, yeah, like the Beatles and those Hamburg days or whatever. All that time they played together and all those experiences really prepared them for when they were together in the studio and faced with the pressure of the world or whatever. They were ready to do it because they had spent the time and done the work.

45:55Do you consider your relationship with the band as the most important relationship in your life? No, I don't really look at anything that way because it all flows and changes. And every day is different. And so I try to look at whoever's in my life that day as the most important person in my life, whoever I'm encountering in that moment. Because it's really, I think that's one thing we forget is everything else is gone. Like right now, it's just you and me. And there's nothing else happening right now. The band isn't here. My parents aren't here. Nobody's here right now. and I try to keep thinking about that because when you're on tour you really have to think about that in this interesting way because if I'm trapped somewhere it doesn't matter where I want to be I'm right there and I can spend time wishing I was somewhere else or I can face reality and try and enjoy it I love how Michael Singer talks about he wrote The Untethered Soul and has a podcast that I really enjoy.

47:01And he talks about reality. And he's like, you want to hear the definition of reality? Reality is that which has already happened. And you can't, if you wish you could change it, you might not like it, but it is. That was another one of the reasons I wanted to name the record Is. It's like, it is. And I think that's something we all need to think about. If we want to change the world, if we're not happy about the way the world is, it's okay to feel upset about it. It's okay to wish it was different in one way. But if you face it directly as it is and say, this is reality right now, what am I going to do about it?

47:40How am I going to need it? How am I going to show up for myself and for reality as it is? And I think that's like some kind of doorway to a better future. It's almost like you can't think about the future. You've got to really think about what can I do in this present moment, starting close, starting with myself and the people around me, and how can I make that better? And I just keep trying to think about that. That's really been helping me. One last break, and we'll be back with Leah Rose and Jim James. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

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50:36Try Claude for free at claude.ai slash brokenrecord and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard, which I can appreciate as someone who holds themselves to lofty if not ridiculous standards, especially with the car I drive. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them.

51:14machines that make you feel more human because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing experience amazing at your lexus dealer what have you been listening to lately i feel like whenever anybody asks me that my mind goes blank it goes completely blank um i i i feel like i have my regular diet yeah what's your diet my steady diet is my sweet Lord by George Harrison. I feel like I listen to that song kind of on repeat all the time, like over and over and over and over again. There's this band Magdalena Bay. Have you heard of them? They've got this song Image that I really like.

51:55There's an artist, Lacey Guthrie. They've got this song called Here She Comes that I really like. I mean, I feel like Kendrick Lamar is always blowing my mind. I mean, I feel like we're kind of like living in his era in a lot of ways you know like there's this this thing that he's doing that's speaking to so many people i really like that dhoshi record oh yeah like i feel like the vibe that that's coming from that is really powerful yeah god i mean there's just like that's the thing it's like the problem and the benefit of uh the digital age or whatever there's there's so much great so much great music but it's almost like over this tidal wave yes yeah you're trying trying It's time to hold on to any of it.

52:38There's just so much. For sure. And I saw that you were in the Bob Dylan movie. I'm not there. I'm not there. Yeah. What was that experience like? It was wild. It was so beautiful. I think originally they said Hank Williams III was supposed to do that part or whatever. Yeah, for some reason he couldn't do it. And Randall Poster, who's one of the greatest music supervisors of all time, who's done all the Wes Anderson films and so many amazing films, he was the music supervisor. And I was living in New York at the time, and he called me up and he's like, hey, do you want to sing this Bob Dylan song, Going to Acapulco?

53:22I was like, that's one of my favorite Dylan songs. I love the basement tapes, and I love that era of Dylan. so we popped over to the studio and Calexico had already recorded the music and I sang the track and it all worked out and then we flew out to Montreal to film the scene I was like painting I had to paint my face to kind of be like the Rolling Thunder era Dylan but I wasn't supposed to be him or anything I'm just supposed to be this band leader that looks like him or reminds you of him from that era or whatever. And it was so funny because I took the white face paint, the makeup lady came and gave me the face paint.

54:06And they're like, and I knew that era of Dylan or whatever. She's like, so I'll let you put the paint on or whatever, you know. And I like was so nervous and so terrified. I like wanted to do a really great job. So I put all this white paint all over my face, like so much. There's like, you know, probably like two inches of paint sticking on my face. And she comes back in and she's like, geez, man. She's like, you don't have to do that much. She's like, let's get, because if he would have done it, he probably just would have, you know, put it on pretty quick or whatever. And it was just such a funny moment of like that thing, you know, that over perfectionist thing kind of coming in and biting you in the ass.

54:40Right. So funny. So luckily she helped me, like, you know, we took some of it off or whatever. And it was amazing. I mean, it was just such a cool part to be a part of it. That's so cool. What a cool experience, especially for someone who loves Dylan. Oh, man. It was unbelievable. Have you ever met him? yeah i mean not really met him because he but we i got to sing with him a couple times when we went on tour with him on the americana rama tour we did when it was i don't know 10 years ago or something and that was really fascinating because uh it was us and wilco and dylan and they had sold us on the idea of the tour that he wanted to play with everybody a lot they're like dylan really wants to play with all the bands.

55:24And we pictured ourselves sitting around the campfire at midnight. Let's learn all of Desire or whatever. And of course, we get to the tour. We don't see him. We don't hear from him. We don't meet him. You never even see him in catering or anything. His bus pulls up. He gets off the bus, plays his show, gets on the bus, leaves. But then one night, his bass player comes up to me, and he's like, I think Bob wants you to sit in tonight. and he gives me a CD of this Reverend Gary Davis song that I didn't know. And Jeff from Wilco and I, we go backstage and we've got our guitars and we've got a couple hours until we're supposed to sit in with him.

56:07Yeah, we're both terrified and we're trying to learn the song. And the bass player, Tony, he's like, he's like, let's do this in the key of D. And I don't really know keys or anything. So we're like, okay. So we'd like learn it. And I swear, like five minutes before we're supposed to go on, the guitar tech comes back and he's like, I think Dylan wants to do it in B flat. Oh, God. So we're like, OK, D to B flat. What is that? You know, we're like trying to figure out. And I don't know the song well at all or whatever. And then we like go out. You know, I mean, he was really nice on stage. He welcomed us on stage or whatever.

56:38And we stumbled our way through the song. And what a trip. And we did a couple of Reverend Gary Davis songs, and then we did The Weight by the band like four or five times. And every night he would change the key of that. So it was like constantly going up and down. It was so wild, but it was so crazy because you never got to spend any time with him or anything. We didn't have a conversation or anything. But when we're playing with him on stage, one of the most unbelievable things I've ever seen, like looking over at him and he is gone. I mean, he's completely lost. Like his eyes were somewhere, you know, like tapped into something that really was.

57:26I think that like we're all part of this, you know, for lack of a better word, cosmic ocean or consciousness or whatever that I really believe we're all tied into. And we're all just little nodes off the same wall of electricity or we're little waves off the same ocean or whatever. And occasionally a person comes along that somehow their energy speaks to everybody in this different way, like Dylan does. And there's just this thing, like being two feet away from him and looking at him where I was like, I saw that thing or whatever I guess that must be his connection to the thing. You know, because it was like there really was no one was there in his body.

58:16You know, it's like he was in that place that I think we all know that place. Musicians know it as the place when they're lost in great music, you know, and they're they're lost in the moment. And I think the place most of us know it best is like in love, you know, making love or that part of life where you're, you are gone. You know, you've forgotten all about this human experience and you are lost in the energy of love and God. And that was one of the coolest things I've ever gotten to see, is stand so close to a hero like that and see that force. It was just unbelievable. That's incredible.

59:03Yeah. Have you played with anybody else and had that experience? Oh, my God. Yeah, we've been so lucky. I mean, so fortunate to share the stage with so many unbelievable artists. you know it's just like it it is uh i just yeah or even seeing people like i got to see etta james before she passed away you know and the energy you know coming off of her you know just like really you felt like the place was going to be ripped apart you know it's like the the walls are going to be ripped off the place you know the energy is so insanely for us or seeing uh Joni Mitchell at the Hollywood Bowl last year.

59:48Oh, yeah. Just in the audience. And I've always really loved and respected Joni Mitchell, but it's never fully been my thing. It's never fully spoken to me fully, deeply, because a lot of it honestly just feels kind of over my head. It's very complex and very layered. A lot of times I really so much respect and so much beauty, But seeing her, the unbelievable energy coming out of her, of like, she's seen it all and lived to tell the tale. And you're seeing her in person, almost like she's all of the energy of everything that's ever happened in the history of mankind or whatever is like coming out of her as she sits on her throne.

1:00:36and it's like i kept getting this vision of her as like the power of like marlon brando and the godfather or whatever you know but it's like but like 10 000 marlon brandos you know it's just like the power coming off her just like i mean like i couldn't believe it you know it's just like that's one really inspiring thing too that we talk about a lot as a band is like you see these people that really show you that age doesn't matter the way we think it does. And age is relative, you know, and nobody can help the help complications they may have. Or if you have bad health or something happens to you, you know, obviously nobody can change or help that.

1:01:16But beyond that, seeing the Rolling Stones, I've seen them four or five times the last few years. Just unbelievable. you know like they're not over the hill old guys you know they're the greatest rock and roll band of all time and they're still alive yeah and they're still blowing your mind you know or you see neil young same thing still blowing your mind you know like still and that kind of stuff is just so inspiring uh i was talking to this best at the end of the day it's like we're all the first to see rock and roll grow old. Totally. This is all still so new. Yep. It's all so new. And there's so many people, like Jimi Hendrix or whatever, who died, or John Lennon, who died or whatever.

1:02:03But then there's still so many people like Paul McCartney. I still have gotten to hear Keith Richards rip my mind in half with a gah. You know, when he hits a big gah. It's just like... Just so wild. So lucky. to witness that unbelievably lucky yeah how are you feeling about touring these days it's so funny we were talking about this the other day because we have never felt better about playing shows like the band as a unit as like a like everything feels so beautiful and so unbelievable we've never felt better about like the music and the the brotherhood and the harmony and the experience with everybody coming to the shows and the circle that's created by the audience and us and the whole thing has never been more beautiful.

1:02:57And simultaneously, I feel like the more sober I've gotten and peaceful I've gotten, the harder the travel has become. So it's been like this crazy back and forth thing of like, oh my God, I cannot sleep on the bus anymore. Things like that where you're like... Is it because you have back stuff, right? Well, yeah, a litany of that kind of stuff. It's just interesting that I think everybody recognizes that kind of thing in their own life where it's like nothing is ever one thing. It's like always both and. I love this new I feel like this phrase I don't know when it was born but I feel like it's really come to more and more light in the past five years five years or so this both hand thing and I think about that and it's like touring is this huge both hand I've never loved playing shows more and I've never not enjoyed traveling more all at the same time the travel is just so difficult for me but it's part of the what can you do until they get the teleporter invented.

1:04:04We got to do it. We got to do. How do you get yourself in the mood for a show? If you can't do like a couple shots or whatever it is, like how do you get into the mind frame? Well, I've never drank before shows. I always drink after shows, but I've never drank before shows because I'm really like, my dad really gave me a really good work ethic, I feel like, and a really like sense of, you know, like, gotta show up for work and you gotta be ready to work. but uh well i've got a whole list of things i do i mean i i've really got like a whole vocal warm-up thing i do and a whole uh meditation thing and just like a a quiet thing and an exercise thing and a music thing and you know it's like this series of like simultaneously getting relaxed and getting excited you know and like getting your voice warmed up so much energy and then we have a we always do a huddle you know and get our band energy going and uh and i uh i asked alice coltrane a long time ago if we could use a piece of her music to as our walk-on music to kind of bless the stage so there's this really cool piece i cut together of a couple of her instrumental portions that i feel like is this really cool like thing that kind of comes out and like clears the energy of the stage before we come on so yeah just things like that i try to pray i try to really pray to the uh energy of the day and and whatever forces might be there that just that it is what it is and i can accept that you know that i hope it's a great experience for the audience and i hope that it's a great experience for us and i I hope that I imagine the whole venue surrounded in like a golden light and like try to imagine all of us surrounded in like some kind of protective healing light.

1:05:57But then simultaneously, like, please help me accept whatever doesn't go right. Yeah. Because that's going to happen too, you know, like, because that's so, so much out of your control when you step on the stage, you know, it's like, and that's part of it, I think, is trying to accept that. Yeah. Well, Jim, thank you so much for talking. Thanks for being so open. Thanks. Yeah, congrats on the new album. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. In episode description, you'll find a link to a playlist of our favorite My Morning Jacket and Jim James tracks. And again, to see the video version of this episode, visit youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast.

1:06:34And be sure to follow us on Instagram at The Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tallade. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.

1:07:13Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.

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