Justice

37:12hearable distortion on the drums. We don't want them to do like... Hold on, just out of curiosity, if you looked at the tracklist from Gaucho, would you be able to pick which one? It's...

37:27Let's see.

37:31That's those ones. So that's a time out of mine. Wow. Wow. That's amazing. Were you a Stilly Dan fan? Not fans, but we liked the effort. We liked the idea of Stilly Dan more than the song sometimes. What was the idea to you? Of being two and using a studio as an instrument. It's like being two and being the orchestrator of your band. Sometimes not even playing in your own band, but just being the architect and saying okay so this guy is gonna play this part, this guy is gonna play this part and that was the same thing with the buggles that we loved it's just like group of one or two guys two guys in those like two cases who started to consider the possibilities of the studio more than a place where you record what you have to record but really to use it as a tool to make something more than this and even in the worst things because for example if you look at this documentary about Aja when they record the Peg solo they use 13 different guitarists and it's despicable you know it's not it's not a good thing to do but at the same time it's cool that they were like nope until they find the one that makes exactly the right thing thereafter and there's something a bit like this in our band is that sometimes we we have an intuition of what we want we don't know exactly how to get there and it's gonna take us like dozens or hundreds threads of version sometimes until we pinpoint exactly what, what we want.

39:32And, uh, so maybe that's why we recognize ourselves in, in this type of process. Yeah. Wow. Um, did you guys, I was, I was really, I, I love the Flint's. Um, yeah, yeah, cool. Love the Flint's. I've been meaning to try to have them on here for, for a few years now, a couple of years. Um, did you guys work with them similarly or no? Like, like almost like you guys were, directing them Steely Dan style yeah we went to London in their studio to record the vocals and yeah I mean they're a really great pair of twins that we we just discovered them like randomly and we loved them yeah how did you guys find them and actually it's like similarly to Steely Dan they were like the I think the fourth people to try on that song like to put vocals on that track.

40:28No way. Yeah.

40:33But as soon as we started working on them, we felt that it would be the right one. Wow. Who else did you guys work with on that? It wouldn't be nice to say. Especially since in that case, like some of the people we worked with, we felt it was not working because it was not the right song for them. and there are still people that we want to try things with yeah so it was not out of like uh like uh lack of skills or uncompatibility or whatever it was just not the right tune and and it happens sometimes wasn't a rejection of the artist just wasn't right at all never never and and and we reject so much of what we are doing ourselves yeah that that if it happens one time with someone we don't mistake it for like incompetence or whatever it's just not the right thing you know yeah that stretch of the album of the new album Hyper Drama from from like Dear Alan to Explore is like that's one of my favorite that was a really awesome section of the album like the way it just moved

41:46the is it Midnight Rendezvous yeah Moonlight Rendezvous. Moonlight Rendezvous, excuse me. Moonlight Rendezvous. Yeah, we hesitated between midnight and moonlight. We didn't do it. Joking, did you really? Yeah, yeah. We didn't do it because there was a Japanese track or band that was called the Midnight Rendezvous and we didn't want to use the exact same word. Oh man, okay. Well, that's what I, my brain went the same place. What were the, that was such a cool, that's such a unique track. How did that come together? like Moonlight Rendezvous and Explorer they belong to the same basically for us it's one track that's cut into to make it more digestible and also that if you want to listen to Explorer only you don't have to listen to Moonlight Rendezvous before and there's this guy called Adrien Soliman he's a saxophone player in France like a studio session player but he also makes his own records.

42:53And we also had the PPG at the time, a PPG, Wave PPG, one of the first digital synthesizer. It's a 12-bit synth. Wow. And because it has a 12-bit chip, there's always this kind of bit crusher, like very soft bit crusher on it that sounds very futuristic. and it's all throughout the record and we wanted to make this kind of like

43:27saxophone piano track a bit like Blade Runner type of thing you know but with the modern sound of the PPG instead of the piano and also like this the way we made the saxophone sound so it has like a pinch of of futurism in a classic form of writing and just a musical form, you know? Wow. And did you, with the saxophone part, it's beautiful. Did you, how did you guys achieve it? Did it take some time or was that like a first take? No, we worked also with another friend called Victor Le Mans, who was the musical Olympics director in Paris. Wow. and so yeah we were just like bouncing back like you know singing stuff to each other and obviously we can't play the saxophone but we were just like directed this guy Suleiman and he's a really funny character because he's a huge guy you know he looks like an American football player you know like massive shoulders and a very like I mean he looks very like masculine in a way in the sense that he's old school masculine old school man and he's like a great super sensitive jazz musician so I really love like the dichotomy of this guy we spent like an afternoon, like a whole day with him in the studio.

45:19And so we, yeah, we would direct him and for example, we would tell him things like, okay, so now you go into like the cocaine jazz part. So he was playing and I'm like, no, you put like more cocaine in your playing, you know, but because there's like different forms of jazz, there's like, and one of them is the cocaine jazz and then there's the heroin jazz, but we didn't want to go in that. You didn't want to go to that heroin. To that territory. but we would say things like this because we knew that and that's the good thing with working with friends is that they know exactly what we're talking about when we're saying that because we have kind of the same references and things so there was no cocaine at the studio but he knows what cocaine jazz is so he would do those type of parts and then we'd say oh no so now it's more like he would describe him like stupid stuff, you know, like, okay, so now it's too much, like you're wearing like a leather cangle, so we don't do that, you know.

46:21Like those guys, they know exactly what we, but we talk about like this all day, so we know, that's a way for us to achieve like precise results. Yeah, yeah. Those kinds of references that you can pull. So wait, cocaine jazz would be more like mid-70s into like 80s jazz, like that kind, or... it's a choice of notes but also interpretation and in that song it's more when it's like he stops following the main theme and goes a bit more improvisational and he starts cranking a bit like just putting more air into the saxophone and playing more desperate a bit like looking for blue notes and everything rather than sticking to the softer parts at the beginning and got it got it right because you did say it was for that specific part you asked for that because yeah because it sounds like you know he's kind of in the cut for most of the song but okay so it was for that particular part and you wanted him to yeah but he does wear like long leather coats yeah yeah black leather coats so yeah he's in the zone for sure you guys got to bring him on the tour yeah it would be great it's a hell of a sight but he's too busy oh man how like you know there was a eight years between albums do you guys continue and your solo album was released between there yeah um which was i really liked that one too by the way and the cover too with the tuning was it like a tuning fork right it's like one of those like it's like one of those like crazy covers you find in like a record store or something yeah but it's yeah it's um i mean yeah it's mostly our main reference for record covers it's Hypnosis you know like the that old label the old graphic design studio from the 70s that did all the at least the best covers for us and so yeah they're so great there's a great documentary on Hypnosis yeah they did like the Led Zeppelin covers Pink Floyd and yeah best studio like they made something that will never exist again unfortunately it's like there are some artists that make things and and they kill the possibility of doing something better afterwards and Hypnosis is one of those studios there's like Otomo the Akiara for example he made like a Japanese animation in a way that's not gonna exist anymore I think Miyazaki when he will stop he will bring this with him too you know really there are people who will reach a level that makes it impossible to to come afterwards her blue ballin with a typography is the same like since the since he stopped like doing things there was nobody that managed like to reach his level so it happens sometimes and you think it's because someone got to such a level of greatness that it's hard to yeah it just makes it impossible they kill it with a when they stop they kill the discipline and then you have to do something else but it's it's fine you know that's something i think about a lot and i don't like to uh if i guess it could it feels like maybe uh uh i don't know maybe it's depressing a depressing thought but sometimes i start to feel like maybe there must be a saturation point and maybe we're reaching it where like i mean sometimes i mean i often feel that way with with film like i look at films now i look at an old like i look like a what I would have thought was a really terrible like movie from 30 or 40 years ago and I watched it I'm like wow look at those shots like I wouldn't like I don't even see that in like the best movie now you know and then I start to feel like well maybe movies are just maybe they're done you know I don't you know but the thing is that we're optimistic and and they they kill like the their discipline with them but then there are new things coming in and things are just being made differently but But for example, there was like a Ghibli after Otomo.

50:34It's just different and it's great. And it's another form of animation. And they made something amazing but different. And with typography, then there was like a lot of other things happening after. So it doesn't mean that things will not be good again. They will be different. And also it's a bit, there's a bias because those are our personal heroes. But I guess like people are 20, 20 years younger than we are, have different heroes. And so it's very subjective. It is in a way, but at the same time, there's like a level of ethnicity that's objective. And that can't be like the ethnicity of Herb Blue Balin, for example.

51:21it's unmatched and I don't think it's possible to make it. And obviously we wouldn't exist without the computer either in graphic design or music. But I think that yes, definitely something has been lost. Like just that link between the hand and the brain. And so this is why the cars look terrible, the buildings look terrible. most of them you know and just because it's it's that natural connection has been a bit lost with computer this and also the fact that when you look at her bluebelline logo even if you have like four times like the letter A like the four times they're gonna be just slightly different just to make the right interconnection and also like optical balance that's good whereas today with a computer you're gonna that in most cases, type your word, or even if you draw it, and when you are satisfied with an A, you're going to take it and then duplicate it.

52:26And that's also why you can't reach the same level of precision and everything when you stop working by hand too. Do you think about that when making music, the way you make music? Do you think about how, to your example, to your point, if you make something, it's just very easy to copy, paste. like oh this this is it wouldn't just sort of loop it or copy paste or whatever but do you think about sometimes like there's a slight variation to this that could happen in the song that would make this song even stronger if it was this part but just slightly a little faster a little slower behind the beat ahead of the beat or just off a bit or you know the imperfection that can sometimes if you want to call it that of course we do but that's also why we don't try i mean if we like in a world where we lack skills or whatever wouldn't be or technicity wouldn't be a problem we would probably be a band like Chic or Stilidan but because for this reason specifically we are not trying to make Chic or Stilidan's music but taking advantage of what a computer can offer to make something different that doesn't try to be that but to be something that's taking yeah that's taking the best in our ears that computers can do which is repetitivity like precision power and stuff like this and then within a song of course we can't help but like even on songs that are loop based at the end there's not two loops that are the same it's like constantly like shifting and progressing so D.A.L.A.N.

54:13is one loop from the beginning till the end there's a B section in the middle but those loops there's not two loops that are exactly the same, there's always like something changing, but that's because we are like a borderline we have like a severe lack of deficit of attention so we need things to be changing all the time. Yeah, not that we compare ourselves to Chic or Celida of course. Yeah, we would never try to do something like them, you know, because we know It's pointless. Yeah. One last break, and we'll be back with Justice. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

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58:16Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com slash sapphire reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Terms apply. have you guys ever met Niall Rogers yeah we did actually in Los Angeles a year ago something like this we had great bands what was the occasion it was I think it was some yeah it was it was a Zane Lowe party after Coachella yeah and he was there yeah it was great like for us like him and Bernard Edwards I think Bernard Edwards is a bit like easily forgotten. Oh, so easily forgotten. Agreed. And to us, Chic is really the blend of Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards.

59:05That guitar sound, that bass sound. And even like from sons at the drums. But like, I remember when we were listening to Chic when we met and even before that, all the stuff that they did, what we loved about their music is that it's very difficult to comprehend what they are doing you know like even when you listen to like I don't know like for me one of the best example is Le Freak or Upside Down because like they are so intertwined in their playing that when for example when I finally learned how to play like Le Freak on the guitar I was so disappointed because the guitar part is very deceitful on its own because it doesn't sound at all like what you're listening when you listen to the record and to us that the magic of this band is the perfect intertwining of yeah of the two notes it's crazy yeah it's almost so to your point it's like the guitar on its own just soloed is just yeah it doesn't sound magical necessarily but that's their genius they know not to overdo it they just do exactly what they have to do yeah so that it works as a whole.

1:00:28Like in that regard, the strokes are a great band also. Yeah. Like between the two guitars, the bass and the drums, if you listen closely, they do something different all the time. They do things that don't really make sense on their own, but everything is so well intertwined that it makes for an amazing result. Yeah. did you was was was now was nile familiar with your guys's stuff at least he pretended i bet he is he seems like he's up on stuff i think he bet he is yeah we we don't know for sure but he was like very nice damn that's pretty that's pretty shit that's man that's pretty cool zane low go to zane low pardon me now rogers um would you would you i mean thinking of nile and thinking of like them doing records for Madonna and Diana Ross and then you guys just did Wake Me Up we referenced it earlier for the weekend is that something you guys would do more of like making stuff for other artists or with other artists not necessarily we we are not running after this we would do it if the initial idea sounds good to us and if we think that's something interesting to do.

1:01:56But producing pop music for the sake of producing pop music doesn't interest us. How did that weekend collaboration come together? You got in touch, like, I can't remember if it was late 2021 or 2022, something like this, while we were still working on our album. And he told us that, yeah, he wanted to make like an orchestral piece that would be like an opening that would sound good as an opening.

1:02:32And then we started talking like about what he wanted to do. And we thought it was the way the fact that he called us to make this made sense to us. So we're like, OK, let's do it. and yeah and then we we worked on enough on it for one year something wow how did the how did the thriller of it get come into play but so we first like made the orchestral part so the beginning of the song as it is now almost and prayed to him and and we made like 10 seconds of music as a drop to show him that it could go somewhere and it could be more than just like an intro, you know? And he was like, oh yeah, I like this.

1:03:21Like, give me more of that. And so because we were working on our album, we made something very quickly. And that sounded a lot like Thriller. And we told him, okay, there you go as a demo, but beware, it sounds a lot like Thriller, Abel. And he was like, yeah, and I like that it sounds like Thriller. And I mean, it makes sense because there's a natural filiation between Michael Jackson and him. Yeah. And on different levels. And we think he liked the idea of overtly, is it the right word? Or openly having like a Michael Jackson reference in one of his songs. and also that yeah and also because we made like different versions with without and they all sounded good but at the end that was the one he was feeling the most at ease with and fair enough it works it's cool though too that like it's like you know because we were talking about I mean it's the breakdown of thrillers so it's like even though it's like the most you know maybe the most iconic Michael Jackson, is the most iconic Michael Jackson song.

1:04:44It's like a part of the song that you wouldn't necessarily think to use if you were going to, you know, use some of it, you know? Yeah, yeah. And actually it's only like the bass placement. It's just to do like a, to do, that's just it. Because the notes, everything else is different. Yeah. But. The notes of the bass are different. No, everything, even the notes of the arpeggio, like the chords, nothing is the same. It's just like the placement. Wow. But in all fairness and also knowing that we all knew what it was, it makes sense also not to do it the third way and to include the road temperature in the thing, you know.

1:05:26Yeah. It's an idea and the idea was very clear. But on the musical point of view, it's not the same notes. But of course, everybody thinks of Thriller. so it makes sense to include him. Yeah, yeah. We were talking about album covers earlier. Fourth album, Hyperinflation. Hyperdrama. What did you call it? Hyperinflation? Yeah, don't even ask me. Hyperdrama is the fourth album. Okay.

1:05:59And it didn't really occur to me before, but it occurred to me looking at him now, this being the fourth one, like you guys never put your name on the album yes yeah but but that's the we were talking about hypnosis earlier that's the Led Zeppelin lesson we learned is that is that on Pink Floyd lesson too yeah yeah but on Pink Floyd it's written on the cover yeah but not every time but from Led Zeppelin 4 onwards so on Houses of the Holy to Presence there's not the name of the band on the covers anymore, no track list, no album name, nothing. And yeah, we've always liked this idea of putting minimal information.

1:06:46You just put one image and there's on Audio Video Disco 2, there's no track list, nothing. You just have an image and even on the back there's nothing. It's a blend between the Chicago strategy you know the band like oh yeah they always have this logo but it's a bit different because it says chicago but since we have that cross logo we just like this idea of like repeating it over and over with a different look how did you guys come up with the cross logo we um yeah about it so hypnosis again like like we were finishing our first album and we're like trying to look for an idea and we didn't know what to do and one time in Toronto after playing a show we ended up at the promoter's place there were like a bunch of young people and were having a drink and they had Dark Side of the Moon on the mantelpiece and we looked at the cover and we were like yeah this is such a great cover if only we had the symbol strong enough that we could put on a cover and that would be it and we wouldn't need nothing else.

1:08:07And mind you, we were touring and everything so we already had the cross with us but for some reason we didn't think of it. And then three weeks later we had this kind of epiphany where like of course we have this symbol because we have the cross so we can just put the cross on the album and that would be it. And so we, I called up an old friend of mine that's making music now under the name of Breakboat. But at the time, I knew him because I was in graphic design school with him. And we knew that he... Then I went into like 2D graphic design and he went into 3D animation. So he had the tools to make a model of a 3D render, like a cross.

1:08:54And we told him like we made a draft of the cross like this because we knew that if it was frontal, it wouldn't look good. So we wanted it to have a perspective and to be a bit like the ship that enters in Star Wars, you know. Yeah. And so we made like a hand-drawn draft of the cover. We told him, can you do it? Can you make us a 3D model? So then that Somi can like draw it by hand. And he started working on it. And the first result, they didn't look cool because actually like the perspective of the cross that we use, it doesn't exist in the real world. It's an anamorphic design. We had like to transform it a lot so that it looks cool in perspective.

1:09:44If you take our cross as it is on our albums, you render it in 3D and then you walk around it. it's almost like the same size on both sides of the horizontal bars. I don't know if I'm making sense. Both bars are the same length? Like the bottom bar and the top bar, they are the same length. So if you look at it like if you take the 3D model and then you flip it and you put it frontal, it's going to be like a cross where the horizontal bar is in the middle almost of the vertical bar. Interesting. So we had like to cheat and to adapt like the 3D until it looks like what it does. That's why we can never do it in real life.

1:10:35Sometimes we would think, oh, maybe for this event or maybe sometimes festivals, they ask us, oh, can we make the cross in 3D? And so I'm like, no, you can't because this shape doesn't exist in the real world. Or if it does, it looks corny. it doesn't look at all. It's an anamorphosis, we say in English. Wow. It's not, it doesn't look like this in real. That's kind of, that makes it even cooler that it's not replicable in real life in a way. I mean, it is, but it looks like shit, you know. Right, but it's not replicable in the way that you intended it to look, right? Yeah. Like, for example, like all the covers of Audio Video Disco, our second album, they were like models, miniatures, that were photographed and the miniatures, they looked so weird because...

1:11:26Yeah, they're just one point of view that works. Yeah. And if you look them in real, they have such a weird shape. That's so funny. But between albums, what do you guys... Are you guys sending ideas back and forth? Are you guys thinking about what could another album be? Or are you just living life? Yeah, we're living the life and... we don't we don't work until we work until we decide to work but because we are neighbors and we don't stop seeing each other when we don't work we yeah there's always something some kind of exchange like listen to this or look at this cover watch this film there's always this ongoing conversation and we shape little by little what could be our next our next record and when we feel that we're ready we just like meet in the studio every day and start working yeah and how do you so in does one just propose the other like let's say let's meet let's go to the studio next week or I mean do you both have to feel like you have the was it natural we know it yeah we feel when it's when it's ready and and and then we we naturally start to meet uh at the studio and uh we we we yeah we both know and we're like okay let's start next week when you start a justice album when you're in the beginning stages of it is how do um are things pretty in place already or or does it Do you have to search for something in the studio?

1:13:16Do you have to find what you're hearing in your heads? Yeah, no, there's a lot of research. Like on this album, we spent like months doing research and development before we finally started writing the first tunes. Did R &D? Yeah, for real. we did R &D both in the analog world and in the digital world but more in the digital because we were more interested in that and the thing is that when you do this research you can't help but like starting like shaping some like ideas that can become songs later and some of them that we used and once the shape once the ideas were like translating in something that felt good for us, then we started to write songs.

1:14:14Wow. And so what are the, what is the R &D? How does that, what is that, what is R &D for justice? Well, it's as sexy as R &D as any other department, which is not at all. We just spend days like nerding out on things and tweaking them until we find ways of making things sound in a way that we like. And we already had the idea of making something that was more loop-based. But at the same time, we're thinking, okay, we like the idea of loop-based music, but we can't listen to loop-based music because it's boring to us. So how can we make it? So that's exciting and that's constantly evolving. And so this is when we came up with like the thing of like maybe we can do one loop and then we take the exact same loop and we make it with all different instruments and for example incognito is like this and there's like a lot of other songs one night all night is like that the disco part in the middle is exactly the same as the rave part but one is made only with synthesizers and the other one is made only with like drums bass and guitar and it was like okay so this album could sound like if we had a switch on our board.

1:15:40Yeah some kind of time travel switch Yeah and you're like techno disco and so it's exactly the same music but being like made in very different ways and so we're like okay that's one simple way technically it's not simple because you have to re-record everything but it's a simple way of making something loop-based. Exciting. Exciting because it's the same loop but everything is different about it. You have to try to taste, find a way to maybe, maybe or maybe not tastefully like hit the switch, you know, how do you go from rave to disco and make it actually work, you know, on a record especially.

1:16:20Yeah. And for this, we were like really treating them as different songs so the disco parts, we would make a session for it and record it, produce it, mix it, then we would do the same with electronic parts and then only at the end, during the editing phase, we would put them together once they were like mixed and everything. At some point where we almost thought for the disco parts, we're gonna mix them, master them, print them on the vinyl then record them, then reintegrate them. And we're like, fuck, it's too complicated. And also because we didn't want them to sound too retro, we wanted them to be disco, but disco of today.

1:17:01Yeah. And not to sound like a 70s disco. We wanted everything to sound modern. Yeah. Going back to, so you guys, when you guys made your album or you guys put your album out, you guys turned down a tour with Daft Punk, didn't you? On the first album? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. What was, what was, why was, but, but because we, we, used to be compared a lot to them and we thought it was a better move to do smaller things but our own thing rather than opening for them and yeah we think it was the right move to do. We love them and that's not the problem at all you know we are very happy that they would propose us but it was a better move for us to just go sideways.

1:17:59Did they ever hear any of your early stuff and did you ever get any feedback from like, oh yeah, we like it? Or did you even know, were you around them at that point? Like to even know that? Yeah, yeah. Like Thomas, I think he did like some sort of pre-mastering on two of the very early remixes that we did. but I can't remember for which tracks it was. Yeah, like very helpful and welcoming. Yeah, very, like both of them are very, very cool guys. That's awesome. The fire video with Susan Sorrent. How did that happen? We, yeah, we wanted to make, so a video and the basic pitch was

1:18:57we lack the visual of a mirrored car being washed and we're like, okay, how about if we instead of making girls washing a car it could be us washing a car for a girl or woman to drive it then because none of us has a driving license and we started thinking okay who would be the best woman to drive this car and we're like Suzanne Soundone of course because we like for many reasons like she was our first choice and and and we got in touch and weirdly enough she said okay let's do it it wasn't a hard pitch it wasn't hard to get her I mean we got very lucky but but I think like her son was aware of our music so he said like yeah mom you should do this it's cool so he helped a lot he told her they're cool do it because we were one of the first shows he ever went to so yeah thank you Jack because that's his name you were one of the first shows he ever went to oh wow cool and she was yeah she's she was so cool and she's like so gorgeous yeah she was perfect does that car I love cars I'm not really I don't know too much about them does that car exist is that a real car I think it's a Toyota Celica Toyota Celica that we we pimped yeah we pimped and at some point we we gave it to McDeMarco but I guess the paperwork didn't get done so yeah Yeah, we made him, like in French, it's called the poisonous present.

1:20:49So we gave him the car after. But it's, yeah, I think it's such a terrible present because he's not allowed, it's illegal to drive it. Because it's mirrored, so you can't see it. It's like actually dangerous to drive a car like this. It's an old car, there's paperwork. So sorry, sorry, Mac. So just sit in a garage somewhere. Or maybe he dumped it somewhere, I have no idea what he's done with it. That's amazing. Um, cool. Well, thanks so much for making the time to do this. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having us. It was great. Yeah. Have fun. The rest of your time in LA. Thank you. Thank you. In the episode description, you'll find a link to some of our favorite justice tracks and as well as songs and artists referenced in today's episode.

1:21:33And again, to see the video version of this episode, visit youtube.com slash broken record podcast. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at the broken record pod. You can follow us on Twitter at broken record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tallade. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions.

1:22:12And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.

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