Kesha

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2:07Start your master's journey today at apu.apus.edu. You want it? Come get it at APU. Pop music's long-standing party animal, Kesha, is now dead set on slowing down and on speaking up. Since debuting on the hook of Flo Rida's mega hit Right Round in 2009, Kesha's released five albums, two of which debuted at number one. Until very recently, she was involved in a decade-long court case with her former producer and label head. Somehow, despite that bitter legal battle and a public struggle with an eating disorder, Kesha's remained steadfast in sharing her art with her fans, who she affectionately refers to as her animals.

2:50On today's episode, I talk to Kesha about how working with Rick Rubin on her new album, Gag Order, provided the safe space she's longed for when making music. She also talks about how she channels Dolly Parton, Iggy Pop, and Beyonce when she's in promotion mode, and how early in her career she lived in a castle with roommate Devendra Banhar. This is Broken Record. Liner Notes for the Digital Age. I'm Justin Richman. Here's my interview with Kesha. Look at you. There you are. Oh my God, here I am. There you are. Here I am. I'm nobody. I am also nobody. No, that's not true. based on what I've, what I heard from this album.

3:30I was just listening to the episode with Andre last night. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so good. It's a great episode. It made me feel so good. Like it made me feel good about myself, I guess, which is the beauty of sharing intimate parts of your mind. Made you feel like seen, you know? Yeah. And also not alone, which I feel like is the goal in making art. Was there any particular part of it that resonated? like the entire thing just his ability to be so vulnerable about and like really transparent about where he was at when they recorded that was helpful especially the part about imposter syndrome and feeling like sometimes just when you have this hole inside of you you focus on the goal of making something great and then when you make it that hole is going to be filled and then when you do make it and like by the grace of God and I'm so grateful and so at the risk of sounding like an asshole because I am grateful and I don't want to ever sound like I'm not but when you achieve success thinking that's going to fix you and it doesn't then you're kind of left at the top of a mountain like alone lonely still broken but accomplished yeah accomplished accomplished alone and like you've exercised all the resources you thought were going to fix you.

5:00So I just relate to that. Like not every day, but when I have those moments, you feel so alone in that and it's scary. It's sad. It's lonely. It's terrible. Yeah. Yeah. How long into your career did it take for that feeling to sort of make its way into your it's funny because like i think it actually is helpful that i have these insecurities that i sing about on the record and that i am pretty transparent about now in my life i've never really felt that feeling of i'm on top of the world even when i have the number one album in the country even when my song broke records i felt like it was all weird luck and i never had that feeling of like walking into a room and being like suck my dick bitches like i wish i had a moment of that because looking back i'm like fuck i should have at least had like a year of being a narcissistic asshole and i missed it this is always awkward we met the day actually you met rick oh my god the day we met rick we ended up walking on the beach in malibu for doing a separate interview for something different.

6:16But yeah, you had just met with Rick. We were talking and it was a good vibe. But even then, I didn't want to... It's always weird to tell someone when you've met them. But I met you pre-TikTok Kesha. I'm so nervous. No, it's really not a bad story. I'm scared that this story's going. No, it was Coachella 2007. in seven or eight and i was at the back of a tent watching devandra banhart and a blonde girl and a brunette of some i don't but just nondescript don't remember came up i think we were all probably inebriated but i remember me maybe not you i'm just kidding i won't well i won't you know I won't put your business out there like that.

7:09But your friend was like, do you know who this is? And I was like, no, I know. I have no clue. That's a good friend right there. I don't remember this particular exchange, but I do remember going to see Devendra Banhart. And I ended up sharing the same house with him in Laurel Canyon at one point. Wow. But there were so many rooms. The place was like a castle that I don't think we ever even met. There were like 12 rooms in this house or like 10 rooms. And I would come home and I think he shot a music video in the living room on my couch. And I like came in and it was just like a very, it's a very sexy group of individuals like on my couch.

7:54And I was like, the fuck is going on here? But sounds magical. It was a magical time. But like your story checks out. Is there like a worse part? No, no, there's no bad part to it. It just, you having said that there was never a part in time in your life where you feel like you arrived. And some of your honesty on the record about it reminded me of that time. Because it was, I remember your friend saying that her being like, this is Kesha. She sings on the Flowrider song, Write Round. And I was like, looking at you, thinking about the song. I was like, this is no way, this is the same person. But I remembered your name.

8:28And then like years later, or a year or two later, TikTok came out. remember you were kind of like it was like you're off to the races but blasted off into outer space even in that moment though it you didn't really seem super comfortable being like yeah i'm kesha of right round fame was like your friend was really boosting you very very good friend and i'm lucky to like be surrounded by awesome women that we always like build each other up and like have each other's backs and you say i've never felt comfortable in that role but i don't think i've just ever felt super comfortable period like ever in my entire life which is i mean have you've had like a elongated period of time where you've just felt super comfy i'm starting to now and i'm worried that that means something oh that's so nice that's that gives me hope it gives me hope but it also gives me anxiety because it does feel like maybe the other shoes about to drop on some level and i should be prepared and i'm not no what if it's what if you just earned it what what if but then how long can that last how long can it last until you know well getting comfortable getting comfortable life's pretty short just like taking the good when you get the good you have to let it in as much as you do the bad that's something i'm trying to exercise on a daily basis it's a fair point like i i sometimes i don't know if this is the same with everybody or it's just like my special concoction of brain cells.

9:58But when I see, I can see like a hundred thousand positives and the one negative thing will be the thing I keep with me and convert to being the voice of my higher power in my head. Yeah. And so I'm really working on kind of what you just said. If it's good, just let it be good. Let it be good. Yeah. Without worrying too much. what i mean early on what was it early in life that made you not feel so comfortable like what i have a core memory of playing a song to high school all school was fucking miserable for me also yes by the way so i have a theory which i'm not sure if this checks out so like don't quote me on it but if you are doing great in school you're fucked the rest of your life like if you have the best time in school 100 you're you're good if you have a shitty time in school you have to forever i feel like there's this need to prove those motherfuckers wrong i think a lot of our lives are like shaped by the experiences that we have all of it we think we are who we are because we're making conscious decisions day after day day in day out to be who we want to be but you know you're right more often than not it's it's based on unconsciously things that have happened and It sets us on these courses that you sometimes can't, you know, whatever you can't, there's no turning back.

11:20Well, and I, have you ever had this thought? I always think, what would my style of music, of taste and clothing, of everything, what would that have been like if that one, like all the men I've been in love with, the like unrequited love where they didn't love me back. I just so wonder if they had loved me back, if I would have ever become the person I was wearing this things I wore just to try to be hot for that dudes whose name I don't remember. So being like trapped in that stage, like you just would have never gone past that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fair because, you know, especially early in life, relationships tend to work out to be like these things that kind of prevent growth.

12:11You know, I think hopefully as you evolve and get older in life, relationships become like you can kind of grow as individuals, you know, ideally. Right. But yeah, like you kind of like it stunts your growth way early on, you know. Well, it can stunt it or just shape it. My first severe love was somebody who was really into punk music. And because of that, I started listening to the Stooges. And now I have a Stooges tattoo and I've done a song with Iggy Pop. Would I have ever done any of that if I didn't have a crush on a guy that I knew, quote, liked punk music on his MySpace profile? I don't know.

12:53I miss MySpace. I mean, probably not. Probably not. You know, who knows? We wouldn't have gotten to Iggy, but that's amazing. Iggy is one of the smartest people I have ever met, I think. He's iconic. I actually have like the Holy Trinity of people I pray to when I get an interview question and I'm like, okay, it's either like, okay, how do I answer this? Like really sincerely and kind and genuine and speak from the heart. Then I channel Dolly Parton. if I'm like okay now's the time to be a little cunt then I'm like okay I channel Iggy and then when I'm like when you're just like above it all and you just like are the most powerful bitch in the world then I'm Beyonce.

13:37Ooh Beyonce I was curious who we're gonna pick. Yeah. Beyonce I mean look we all fell in love with Beyonce but like when for you particular where in the journey did you I think the self-titled album with the pink I think it's just called Beyonce honestly I'm not even like I don't have like every album I play all the time it was the feeling I felt when I heard the album it's like black with her name the one from 2013 yeah when I first heard that album my goal in life was to because she started in super pop like me and I feel like she has fully embodied the power of who she motherfucking is yeah and I am in no means comparing myself to Beyonce it's just somebody that I try to channel when I don't know how to respond to something yeah but like I don't know I just always felt a little bit different.

14:37I went to school in Nashville. I was born in the Valley and my mom was like a single mom made music and we moved to Nashville. And I just remember from the earliest stages of going to school, I went to a Catholic school and all the boys were wearing shorts and all the girls had to wear skirts. And I remember getting in trouble and I got sent to like the head nun's office because I wore the boys outfit. And just since I was like six years old, I would be like, if the boys can do it why can't i do it and nobody really had an answer i got my hand slapped and then sent back to class so i still have not gotten the answer from anyone no one has given me the answer if the boys can do it why can't i do it that is uh hotly debated still at the moment it's and it's a great question and it's probably there's no good answer you know there's no i don't think there is i don't think there's a good answer like i've gone down all the rabbit holes in my mind i haven't figured out the answer but even then i i was wondering like why do you want to push yeah why do you have to find a boundary and push but i just if it doesn't make sense to me i don't understand the concept of just shutting the fuck up and like it is what it is which is something rick rubin who i did this record with he said that to me a couple of times and it it like blew my mind it is what it is it's just like what are you going to argue with that it is what it is he would just I would be freaking out about something and he would just like laugh and say it is what it is and I am still trying to like reach that level of acceptance just in life it is what it is did any of that it is what it is did any of that you know that ethos did that like find its way into your creative process throughout the making of the record yeah absolutely I'm I'm like pretty accustomed to being a control freak as much as I can be.

16:36And with Rick kind of just like laughing, it is what it is. We didn't film the first month of recording because I was just an emotional, beyond emotional wreck. It was really scary to me. He's only the second producer I've ever done an album with. And so I was just so, I felt so scared that he was going to quit. And I kept just like obsessively asking him if he quits projects a lot and if he thinks he's going to quit my project because I felt so nervous that I wasn't going to be able to deliver the goods. And he was just so patient and so kind. I mean, you know, he's an amazing human. He's so great it was such a great influence on my life but i have kind of taken in that it is what it is i made what i consider to be the most proud thing i've ever made with rick i'm the most proud of this of anything that i've ever made my entire life i think it's a masterpiece i think it's a classic and if people are gonna sleep on that that's not my problem i hope not it's really good But I mean, the last two records you made were great, too.

17:50Like from a listener's perspective, from the audience perspective, it seemed like even those records were like a big growth period for you, too. Like just hearing your vocal more, you know, it just felt like, oh, wow, like you're really like you're singing like this person can sing. So I got kind of used to having autotune as this crutch because I was like, no, no, no. It's like I need my medicine. Like I'm not going to be able to live. Right. Like this is this is my life force in my music. I have to have the auto tune. And Rick weaned me off. It was like a detoxing program with Rick with the auto tune.

18:23I swear to God. I would cry and be like, no, please give me the auto tune. And he's like, I don't know how else to tell you that you don't need it. And I still am getting used to that idea. It's shocking to me that you still feel like you might. I mean, you're a great singer. Thank you. and also like yeah fuck yeah i am and it makes me sad because like we're talking about before sometimes you just remember that one comment you know there's comments that i think even if you move past i mean they're just going to stick with you there's certain comments that it's just offhanded comments people don't even realize what they're doing you know they say something i've had family members say things to me as a kid that i you know i still i still think about i'm Like, oh, my God, you know, I'm deficient in this particular way because someone just said it one day randomly, you know, not even they don't remember it.

19:17I'm sure, you know, they probably have no recollection of it. And those things almost help define who you become, because as people, we're just an amalgamation of all of our experiences, all the sounds we've heard, all the records we've heard, you know, like everything's a rip off because we heard it somewhere. yeah like i really think our brains are just like our dreams our dreams just interpolate what we've experienced and it's the same with making music it's like i'm just dreaming it's kind of like i don't know what's coming out it's just a dream but it's a mash-up of something i must have heard with something else i must have heard and something else i must have heard yeah the sort of like affirmations or or sort of just like this the samples from sort of like you know some are spiritual leaders as a a magician in there which is kind of just like these great he's a wizard a wizard not a magician excuse i didn't was there a difference oh my god yes there's a difference a magician i don't actually know the technical reason they're different but i'm pretty sure wizards are like more powerful well more power well it depends actually that's a good question but we should ask the fans what do you think's more powerful a wizard or magician or musician or yeah cast your vote and you have it sampled you have a wizard sampled into uh into the be and like some other spiritual leaders and it's it it helps frame the listening experience in like a really beautiful way you know because you're dealing with really i mean just from the title alone you kind of know it's going to be an intense listen from just the title gag order and it proves proves to be you know it is an intense listen and we had kind of talked about what we were going to call it it was initially going to be called eat the acid and as much as i love that song it's one of my favorite songs i've ever written like it's a really special song but i was afraid that that would maybe play into this whole party girl persona that i have been so desperately trying to recover from because I realized America doesn't understand irony in math so ever since then I have to be really careful anytime I mention any kind of substance even if I'm joking it's like it's gonna follow me until I'm far beyond when I'm dead like that's what I'm gonna be remembered for so I was like I don't know maybe you know there's a lot of time to you know if that's not what you want i don't want to be remembered as the chick that liked to party it could be like she was really fun when she did party and there's all these other facets to her character and you can you know yeah and partying is now secondary to i'm fun as fuck like sue me we're gonna take a quick break and then come back with more of my interview with Kesha.

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25:19That's why LinkedIn Jobs' AI assistant suggests 25 great fit candidates daily so you can invite them to apply and keep things moving. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash broken, then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs' new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's linkedin.com slash broken to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. We're back with more from Kesha. When did you write Eat the Acid? Okay, so Eat the Acid, I forget the date, but that was during lockdown. So I was upstairs, this is my house, so I was upstairs.

26:00And I was just having like this intensive anxiety because I think when you do what I do, you are like off to the races and you have very little time to sleep or do much of anything else besides maintain that this thing you fought so hard for and dedicated your life to is sustaining life. So that happened for 12 years. So lockdown was the first time I was in one place for more in two weeks, probably in over a decade. So everyone had a tough time and I am, I'm very grateful and I have a lot of privilege and I want to acknowledge that, but it was really mentally a fucking nightmare. It was almost unbearable just because when you dedicate your life to something and then you have built this whole castle around this idea of what your purpose is and what is, and then it's disintegrating in front of you, I really felt like I was having a psychotic break.

27:11So watching these illusions kind of fall left and right and realizing that if I never made a song again, if I never went on tour again, if I just like ceased to exist, I'm not sure anybody would care. Like, and that freaked me out. Like people would care. It would be like a TMZ article, but like, and my family would care. My friends would care. And I know my fans, my fans would care, but like in large part, knowing that if something happened to you and it would become just like a news story for 20 minutes and fade, then you start to be like, well, what have I risked and sacrificed everything for?

27:55I've missed so many birthdays. I miss so many moments with my family. I miss my godson being born. All of these things, all of this time that I'm never going to get back. And what did I sacrifice it for? For a number one song? Who fucking cares? so like it's going to make me emotional because it's I'm never going to have that time back and that like still fucks with me yeah but I then kind of like with the help of Rick like I refell in love with music and like why I started loving it in the first place when I started making it in the first place why I have to make it and I started feeling like it doesn't matter what anybody else would say you're important to yourself so this like falling in love with my self dynamic rick really helped encourage and i always when people would say love yourself it's like yeah of course love yourself love yourself yeah promote love yourself but it felt so corny to actually practice self-love and like sit and roll my eyes on myself and then like and then do it.

29:06And I started realizing that that's where my passion and lust for life came back from is like actually giving a shit about myself. With that renewed sense of love for yourself, I mean, do you feel like you can kind of integrate your life and your art and your career better? I hope so. We'll see. Like this album is so fucking special to me. I feel like it encapsulates me becoming who I am and like really being reborn in a way that I never kind of knew was possible. And to capture that audibly, to capture a process of going through like a spiritual awakening and ego death, really difficult mental obstacles, digging through the trash of my past and reemerging on the other side.

29:59and to capture that on a microphone felt so fucking scary yeah when rick when we started working rick was like let's film it and i was like i just can't i just can't so at the end i got really sad and i was like fuck we should have filmed this and he said it is what it is and so i was like you know what he's right it is what are you gonna do it is what it is making a record is documenting something but and it sounds like this record didn't just document a particular phase of your life like it documented like a particularly like impactful phase in your life like the mics were rolling at the right time to get they're rolling at the most vulnerable times like there are moments on the record that are hard for me to listen to if i'm not in the right headspace living in my head was really really hard to make but that was rick's like favorite song What in particular in that is hard for you to hear or made it hard to make?

30:56Just listening to this ideation of non-existence and talking about my insecurities and how it, you know, I don't think it's just in music, but it's very prevalent in entertainment. But I think it's kind of everywhere. As a woman, I feel like there's a lot of need to compare yourself. And I talk about that in the song. I talk about how lonely I feel inside of my head and how sometimes I just want someone to hold my hand while I walk through it in there. And he's not paying me to say this, but Rick was the one that said, okay, I'm going to hold your hand while we walk through this together. So it's a beautiful thing.

31:40And I have no idea if people are going to like it or listen to it. I have no fucking idea. I hope they do because I think it will help certain people that relate to what I'm saying. Yeah. But in terms of like chart numbers and wanting to be the dick swinging motherfucker that walks into the room, I think I'm just too old for that anyways. I don't know. I mean, come on. Look at Mick still walking around with his dick swinging. Okay, fine. Maybe I'm going to start walking around with my dick swinging as long as I ever start getting out of hand. somebody shoot me a text sure rick will pull you in tell me about the like the from like sort of the creation story of this record from like how did it come together like what did you bring to rick that first day you met rick the first day i met rick i played him a bunch of demos that were like not very good i will forever remember him where as rick you told me to play you everything And I was like, no, this song is not, I don't like this song.

32:48He told me to play you everything. And then I played the song and about 30 seconds and he just started like crying, laughing. And I was like, okay. That was the nicest way anyone ever told me that they hate my song. I was like, all right, that's really embarrassing. Next song. So they were not good songs, but we talked a lot about spirituality through the process of this album. And he knew that I'm a seeker and kind of on the journey to, I don't know, just be in touch with our power of some sort. And that's what we ended up really bonding over. Did anything from that first batch of demos you played them make the record?

33:30Like any facet of those songs or any? One. One did. Hate Me Harder. wow that's i like to hit me harder but but the song leaked the the original demo leaked like a couple years ago and i was disappointed because i was like that's not the incarnation i wanted people to hear but he took this like very poppy kind of happy sounding anthem song and turned it to this really powerful ballad, strong, defiant thing. So he made it a whole different animal. One of the many geniuses of him. He said he's like the song, like you put different clothes on it, different genres. We would try one song and make a ballad and then we would make it a disco song and just see which one we liked better.

34:17Did you ever settle on a particular feel for a song in that process that you were positive maybe you wouldn't like? played was there ever an instance where you're like oh we'll try this song kind of like a gospel song but i don't know that's really going to work but you were convinced i honestly i just kind of like when you're in the presence of a master i think a really important tool is knowing what you're good at and also knowing what you're not good at and surrounding yourself with people that are good at the things you know you're not good at so having like this like beautiful experience and getting to sit in the same room with Rick, I was just like, honestly, I'm down to try whatever.

35:00Like I was game, which I think hopefully, I mean, I'll speak for him, but I think it was fun for him too because I was like, sure, let's try. Let's try dropping it like 20 BPM, drop the key, slow it down, change the chords. Like I was here for the whole experience. That's great. Hate Me Harder was an idea. So you kind of have that, but I mean, you're kind of also starting from scratch. So what was... It was scratch. And then it was at the end of a song, he heard me starting to sing Living in My Head because I was at the session and I had a lot personally going on that day, just with another department of my life.

35:42And I started just having an anxiety attack, thinking about the phone call I was just going to make. So I was leaving. I just kind of mumbled into a mic like this. Like, I don't want to be here anymore. I don't want to be here anymore. I'm so fucking insecure. So we listened to the whole song and that little tiny part at the end ended up being living in my head. And he was like that that's real. I want to start with that. so there were like little tiny pieces i guess thinking back but hate me hard it was the only song in its entirety but eat the acid i don't think i ever even played i actually don't remember potentially now i'm thinking back he may have heard eat the acid but it was so different but he just took everything off of everything like the production all went away and it was rebuilt Yeah.

36:33But Eat the Acid was kind of like the foundation of the album. That was when I was sitting upstairs having this, like, what I perceived to be a psychotic break. But it turned out, according to my therapist, to be a spiritual awakening. So that was the song I wrote the next day after that. I guess to go back to the story you're telling, you're sort of in this dark period, start of the first couple weeks of lockdown. And you're feeling like you're having a psychotic break. In that same sort of instance, you talked to your therapist? Oh, I talked to her the next day. The next day. I was like... You're not playing around.

37:08I genuinely was like, okay, it happened. Now what do I do? Yeah. It was like the first... I would say it's the first weeks, maybe first months were the most intense of lockdown. I don't remember the exact date. It was somewhere between March and June. Somewhere in those months is when that happened. And so this experience happened. I felt like I had a conversation with God, who was really funny, it turns out. It's good to know. I'm so happy to hear that. Thank God. Like, great sense of humor. Thank God. That fool. And it was so scary that I just woke up the next day and I was genuinely scared.