Kim Gordon

0:06Pushkin. This is an iHeart Podcast. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at Ooclas Speedtest. And they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. That's your business, Supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the U.S.

0:48where you can see the sky. Best network based on analysis by Ukla of Speedtest Intelligence Data 1H 2025. Every great music conversation goes beyond the surface. The influence that shaped an artist's sound. The moment that changed their creative direction. The story behind the story that fans never hear. Claude helps you discover those deeper connections. Upload interviews, liner notes, or music journalism, and Claude reveals patterns across an artist's entire journey, showing how influences become innovations. Whether you're a music journalist, passionate fan, or someone who loves understanding creative processes, Claude matches your curiosity about what really drives great artists.

1:29Try Claude for free at Claude.ai slash brokenrecord. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard, which I can appreciate as someone who holds themselves to lofty if not ridiculous standards, especially with the car I drive. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them. Machines that make you feel more human.

2:06Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. At 70 years old, Kim Gordon, the former bassist and founding member of Sonic Youth, is somehow making the most abrasive music of her career right now. This month, she dropped her second solo album called The Collective with producer Justin Raisin, who's previously worked with artists like Drake, Lil Yachty, and Charli XCX. Kim's spoken word-like vocals on the collective are the perfect accompaniment to Justin's distorted trap-style beats, especially on her first single, Bye Bye, which was originally intended for rapper Playboy Cardi.

3:00On today's episode, Leah Rose talks to Kim Gordon about her latest solo album, as well as her memoir, Girl in a Band, that detailed her very public split with ex-husband Thurston Moore. Kim also delves into why she always felt like an outsider in New York City's thriving downtown art scene, and recalls Sonic Youth's storied tour in the early 90s opening up for Neil Young. This is Broken Record. Liner Notes for the Digital Age. I'm Justin Richman. Here's Leah Rose's conversation with Kim Gordon. I saw that you're getting ready to play some shows to support the new album. How are you going to translate the album or the songs or the new music to the stage?

3:44What are you guys thinking? Well, it's just so it'll be the same group of girls that I toured the last record with. But the drummer will probably have some kind of hybrid kit. so she'll be uh i don't know what she'll be doing she'll be playing like uh you know some of the beats live and then sampling stuff i guess uh-huh same with the guitar player and the bass player they're all very technologically savvy i'm kind of the only one who isn't yeah there'll be some things on backing tracks that we just can't reproduce and for the actual for the recording of the songs, were you playing with a live band or was it mostly...

4:30Okay. It's mostly programmed stuff. Yeah, it was basically me and Justin Raisin. He was my collaborator. Like I said, I wanted to have more beats on this record and he would basically send me beats. I talked about what sort of hip hop I liked and I'm sort of inspired by rhythm because I'm not a very melodic singer. or my range is kind of limited, let's just say. Anyway, so he would make up beats with some sounds and send it to me, and I would decide what I thought I could work on. And then I would go in and make up guitar parts in the studio and lay down some vocals and usually start out with some of the songs that had complete lyrics, but I still didn't know how I was going to place them.

5:20And then other songs, I would have half lyrics, and then I would sort of start improvising, or other things would come out of my mouth. And I'd go, where'd that come from? And so then it became, for him, sort of a shaping, editing kind of process. And then sometimes he would sample my guitars and put it back in. And then I would go back and then usually add more guitar vocals. So the guitar is you playing? Yeah, although there might be some things he played guitar on, but mostly it's me. And then I had Sarah come in in the end and add more dense noise stuff. What were the hip-hop reference tracks that you gave him?

6:07You know, like Schoolie D, Gucci Time. Oh, old school. Yeah, yeah, mostly like 80s or 90s. Okay. I didn't really give him that many references. And then for the last record we talked about, I'd played him different things, like even ESG. There was a single I really liked by this band, The Jellies, which was like a super minimal kind of fun song from like 82 or 83. That's cool. I thought some of the music sounds like kind of like blown out dub and trap beats. So I thought maybe you were referencing more recent stuff. Well, yeah, there is some reference to recent stuff. But it's kind of like, well, I liked, on the last record, I really liked that song, Peppery Capone, which was a trap speed.

7:01So I was like, but yeah, I know that he makes beats for other people. And so I knew that, yeah, that would involve other things. But it wasn't like I specifically pointed out some contemporary perspective. Yeah, I've been reading some of the things that are being written about what's been released so far. And people are like, you know, like you're dropping bangers, like trap bangers. And it's just it's so great. Yeah, I mean, yeah, Justin gets a kick out of that. Like he couldn't wait for like his hip hop world or whatever to hear the record or something. How did you two meet? How did you start working together?

7:43Super accidentally. Actually, I met him through his brother, Jeremiah, who I think curates beats for Drake or something. People send him beats. It was actually just in a restaurant, and I was with a friend, and he was with this girl. And our tables were so close together. And they had kind of a friend vibe, but then suddenly they started talking about their sex life together. And our tables were so close that we just all turned to look at each other and started laughing. So we just started talking and he was kind of like, yeah, my brother's a producer and he did the Skyper Hour record. That was kind of a cool record.

8:22But when usually people say the word producer, my head kind of just turns off. Like, I don't know, it doesn't really, it's not the way I've ever worked. But then, yeah, Justin started DMing me and he was working on a project with Lawrence Rothman and they were having different people come in and do vocals along with Lawrence. I wasn't actually living in LA then. I was sitting in an Airbnb. Yeah, I thought he was sort of a character, but he kept sending me stuff. But eventually he sent me something that, okay, I could do something on this. So I went over and he has this home studio in his garage.

9:00It's a very big garage, LA style. And I did some vocals And he basically took what was left over and put a very trashy drum track to it and sent it to me. And I was really surprised. I was just like, oh, he really knows my sensibility. And so I went back and I did. He had Stella from Warpaint come in and put drums over it. And I put some guitar on it and vocals. And that became Murdered Out. And then it wasn't until like six months later that I think we actually started working on a record. Sounds fun. Yeah, I really didn't have any desire to do a solo record. I play with Bill Nace. We have an experimental guitar duo improv group and Bodyhead.

9:53And I make visual arts, so I wasn't really thinking about launching a solo career in that sense. Does Bill like this solo stuff that you're doing? He's very supportive. You know, he says he does, but I don't know what he really thinks. The thing that struck me about it is a lot of the people that we talk to, as people get older, things start to get quieter, their music starts to slow down. And this is the opposite of that. It's so noisy in the best way. Is that something that you were intending to do from the beginning? Was that part of the original concept? No, I didn't really think about it, actually.

10:41Not at all. I don't know. Like, it wasn't really until it was done that I thought, oh, God, it's really a loud record. I mean, I'm kind of a slow developer, so I'm just now making a really loud record. Yeah. I don't know. I guess I kind of see the record as an intervention into the culture. Tell me more. What does that mean? Like, because it's so different and so kind of abrasive in some way and not an easy listening kind of record, it has this other thing about it. And I think people seem to be more and more ready for things that aren't conventional. And I don't know. So I think it's just meant to be a little bit of a disruption into what is business as usual.

11:34Yeah, that makes sense. But I didn't really, like, I didn't, you know, this is all like, I'm saying this, but it's kind of unconsciously done. Do you listen to loud music normally? Not normally, actually. You know, if I'm just around my house, no. Like, I'll listen to, like, even John Fahey, you know, or, like, Brazilian music or Bardo Pond, you know, kind of. Actually, I love Bardo Pond. Like, I love that there's something really glorious and beautiful about their drone. It's very soothing to me, even though it's kind of loud. I don't know if this is a connection between earlier music you've made with Sonic Youth, but it seems like you're sort of comfortable with the drone.

12:15Yeah. Do you see any sort of connective tissue between the music you were making with Sonic Youth and the new solo music? I mean, you know, in some ways, like the songs that I sang on were the ones that were kind of more abstract. slabs of music and you know songs that we'd kind of make up all together sitting around as opposed to once often thurston would come in with a melody and he would have nobody wanted to sing and then we'd find our parts to it and still arrange it all together but other songs it was kind of a challenge like what how am i gonna sing on this and in a way like being presented with like beats and pieces of music with sound and beats it wasn't dissimilar you know it was kind of okay what can I do with this and you know I if I didn't feel like I could do something obviously I wouldn't do it but you know some things would immediately like move me and that's also the way it was with in Sonic Youth like oh yeah I could definitely do something you know like Massage in History I knew I could do something like that it's funny it just occurred to me the other day that it's kind of not dissimilar in that way.

13:28And then we did do some things that were like, you know, cool thing or nature scene that were kind of had moments of reference to hip hop or. Yeah, I was surprised to see. I don't remember where it was from, but I read an interview with you where you were saying for cool thing that LL Cool J's going back to Cali was one of your favorite music videos of all time. I thought that was super cool. Yeah. Yeah, it was definitely an inspiration. And the song kind of came about, you know, I was supposed to review L.O. Cool J's new record and I interviewed him and I asked, I was always curious how working with Rick Rubin was and what his knowledge of rock was or, you know, or was it all rick you know who brought what and because i really liked radio i really liked that record a lot and uh i was disappointed to learn that it was he was really into bon jovi really and uh in a way it makes sense like uh but again like i think it's because rick probably you know like the big chunky power chords of bon jovi that was kind of you know like that went with the space and the beats he was doing and yeah in some of the music and anyway so that's where it was part of the inspiration for the lyrics you know like being disappointed in somebody but you're not into dissonant guitars and i always thought actually hip-hop would be so much it'd be cooler if they kind of were into more dissonant kind of like their idea of rock is kind of corny in some respects.

15:13So anyway, so I think Justin's someone who appreciates that. I never said that to him, but he appreciates that. This is going to make a trap speak sound different. It reminds me of, have you heard Yeezus? Kanye's Yeezus? I wonder if Justin's a fan of that album. But it's very like, it feels like industrial music inspired. Yeah. I heard him do it live in a horrible, at the Met, at this, the Met Ball, and it was, the acoustics were terrible. I thought it was terrible. But I didn't, honestly, didn't sit down and listen to it, the whole thing. But I, I'm sure he was a fan of it. I'm sure he was. Yeah.

15:57He called me, he calls me Kim Yee sometimes.

16:02So bad. And now that you're in the full interview cycle promoting the new album, how do you feel about doing interviews? I know it's like a strange thing to ask you in an interview. That's a good question. You've been interviewed so many times for so many years. Yeah. I mean, I think I've done over 50 interviews for this record so far. Wow. And then I did a couple of interviews yesterday and one was with someone I think in Poland. And he's quoting my interviews I've already done for this record. Really? And actually it was fine because I could clarify a couple of things that were, you know, taken out of context or whatever.

16:45But at the same time, I thought it was kind of strange. I think I started doing interviews last fall when I was in Europe. But, you know, it's a necessary evil. Sometimes I like it, you know, like it depends on the interviewer, really. And it's made me think so much about the record. And I don't like that. Like, I can give explanations for most of the songs, but I don't feel like it's always a good idea. I think it's nice when people come to their own conclusions sometimes or, like, project what they want. But for some things, like the song, I mean, man, it's kind of useful to explain it. Does it seem like people are missing the mark with the questions they're asking you about the album?

17:33Sometimes. Sometimes I mean, the worst question I've been asked is, why did you make another record? And like, I think they want me to say, because of the pandemic or something? Yeah, I don't know. Like, I don't have a, I don't have a good answer. I was just like, I don't know. I was bored. I didn't know what else to do. Yeah. I don't know. I think it's a difficult question to answer. It seems miraculous. I don't make music, and it seems like to create something out of nothing just seems incredible. Yeah, but it is like, yeah, you make something in a space that wasn't there before, and it's like you made a room or something, you know.

18:15We're going to take a quick break and then come back with more from Kim Gordon and Leah Rose. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at an Ooclas speed test. And they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged.

18:52With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity, even in times of high demand. With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients. and with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite to mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business, Supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the U.S. where you can see the sky. Best network based on analysis by Ukla of Speedtest Intelligence Data 1H 2025.

19:38The greatest music stories aren't always in the songs themselves. They're in the late night studio sessions, the chance encounters, and the cultural moments that shaped entire movements. For music lovers who find themselves going down rabbit holes about their favorite artists, Claude, an AI thinking partner, helps you explore those deeper questions. Whether you're wondering about the connections between different scenes, trying to understand what drove a particular creative period, or exploring how social movements influenced sound, Claude works through these complex cultural puzzles with you.

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20:46Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard, which I can appreciate as someone who holds themselves to lofty if not ridiculous standards, especially with the car I drive. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them. Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing.

21:23Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. Here's Kim Gordon with Leah Rose. So yeah, so back to the dissonance. Somewhere I heard you say that you felt like extreme noise and dissonance can be really cleansing. Yeah. Do you remember when that first struck you? Probably driving around in Western Mass in this, you know, in my car and everything covered in snow and just kind of, yeah, it's not sentimental. It's not emotional. It's not, I don't know. And it's just like looking at suburbia, it's just kind of like, I just want something to cut through this. This is kind of depressing. I just like the idea that I could be driving around this super banal, I mean, some of it beautiful landscape, but then some of the suburban parts depressing.

22:15And how kind of funny about music that you can just have it in your head and it can contrast so much with what's going on around you. It creates its own, you know, it sounds stupid, but it creates its own architecture, environment, space, and transports you. You said that before you started making the album, you wanted to do something that was more beat-driven. Do you remember why you wanted to do that? Because I feel like, yeah, I'm inspired by rhythm. I really like. and uh when i first started playing with these two girls when i first started playing guitar back in 1980 or something it was for this artist dan graham's art performance it's called mirror performance audience where he'd have a mirror standing behind a huge mirror like a giant wall-sized mirror and he would just stand there and describe the audience their gestures their shifting in their seats.

23:17And then he would turn around and describe himself in the mirror, having the audience. It was all very self-conscious. And he wanted to do the piece with an all-girl band because he was writing articles about the slits and feminism and rock and all this stuff. So he introduced me to this girl Miranda, Stanton Miranda, and we started playing. And then this other musician, Christine Hahn, joined us. But at first, my idea was like a drum machine with, someone taught me how to play like half jazz chords, just like fretting the bottom three strings. So kind of doing that and then getting lyrics from like women's magazines, ads for different colored lipstick.

24:05There was like a talking song that we did that was taken from kind of this first person text on the back of Cosmopolitan. It's like, I'm a Cosmopolitan girl and describing the whole thing. Anyway, so that was a song. So I kind of like from the very beginning, I sort of did that in a way. Was that around the same time you were writing for, you started writing for magazines in New York? Yeah. So you were writing about male bonding and what happens between men on stage in bands. Was that the actual impetus of you joining what became Sonic Youth? Well, yeah, Dan was writing these articles about women in rock.

24:47and so to be sort of rebellious i thought i'm going to write about men in rock but there was this composer reese chatham who was influenced by um but lamont yeah he started with lamont but he applied it to get electric guitar so he and he told glenn bronca and so they were both doing kind of writing pieces of music with open e-tuning so reese had this piece called guitar trio it was so what they would do is they would take a hit of anal nitrate this stuff called locker room it was a popular drug in the west village among sort of the gay community they would take a hit of that and then downstroke on the guitars and in this rhythm anyway so the first thing i wrote was just a description of that performance it was very short it's called uh trash drugs and male bonding it was for this art magazine called real life yeah and then i i wrote longer pieces have been involved uh a group of male artists whatever but in order to do my research i read books by john retchy because i couldn't really find any material that described that talked about male sexuality in a certain way so in this john retchy books were kind of about the gay bar scene in the West Village and kind of this idea of needing distance for desire.

26:18And then, yeah, but I did feel like, well, maybe I'll learn more about male bonding if I'm in the band or something. But I met Thurston through Miranda and we started playing music together. Do you think the desire to go that far with learning what it would actually be like by embedding yourself in a real band of boys. Do you think that has anything to do with your dad being a sociologist? Well, I thought maybe so in retrospect, because he did have this book on his bookshelf called Men at Work, and I used to look at it and wonder, what's that about? And why isn't there one that says women in work or something?

26:58But yeah, I don't know. I guess, you know, in a way that a lot of lyrics on the record are kind of stem from a sort of sociological kind of interest, and some of it is emotionally reactive. Did you actually ever learn? Like, did you ever get the knowledge that you were seeking in the beginning? Like what happens between men on stage in bands? Did you have any big takeaways from being in the band for so long? Not really, actually. I mean, no nothing that surprised me but there's a difference between playing bass and electric guitar and i think and maybe it has to do with the sound you get from electric guitar but it definitely feels like this more of a sense of power and uh you know just electricity is kind of an interesting thing to use that way and to you can subvert it with your body and moves with your body and some of those heroic gestures windmills and things like that they have become the staples of you know arena rock or just like any kind of rock or like they do something to the sound in a way you know yeah but i think it also is kind of has to do with people playing in bigger and bigger places and then make so the gestures become bigger more perform more performative or something but now it sounds like you play with mostly women Yeah, it just kind of happened that way.

28:31The first incarnation of the band was, there was a male drummer, this guy Serling Laws, who's great. And then after the pandemic, you know, people had other commitments. But it's great. Like, yeah, I have so much fun playing with them. It sounds like you became more aware of being a girl in the band after Sonic Youth was signed to Geffen. in your book you talked about how you would intentionally center yourself on stage i don't really intentionally center myself on stage that's just the way there's some water that oh okay no i mean there's nothing to do i think it has to do with separating the two guitars you know and having the bass in the middle next to the drums it's really what it i just was when i think in my book i was describing being in the center of the stage or something believe me it's not what i would have first shows actually when we first started going to england you know in 84 maybe that's when people started asking was it like being a girl in a band or and why don't you have like a persona you know like why aren't you all dressed up like uh suzy sue or lady elijah or somebody that's when i first started becoming more self-conscious about it i guess yeah but then when we signed to Geffen, I realized, oh, I have this platform now that's a little bigger.

29:55It's not like we were really in the mainstream. And so I thought, oh, I have other lots of topics I can write about as a woman or a girl. And yeah, like, so that's our swimsuit issue. Because also after we, right after we signed to Geffen, there was this big Me Too moment that happened between this big A &R guy and his secretary. This was in 90 or 91 or something. Oh, wow. Yeah. And then shortly after, I guess, a year or so after you were signed, you went on tour opening for Neil Young. What did that change for Sonic Youth ultimately? I guess it made our name a little bit more known. Again, people kept asking us what it's like to be in the mainstream and we really weren't.

30:41And it was quite apparent from Neil's audience that we weren't. But I think it did do something. And we learned how to play on big stages. but when we toured with them we didn't even have guitar techs like we actually had hired these two friends of ours who played in a band who'd never guitar teched and we never really got sound checks in the beginning either so for a while like every guitar Thurston would pick up would be out of tune and then he would be frustrated and smash it a lot of times and then Neil's guitar tech Larry who was awesome would like fix it But it was a tough tour, actually.

31:24Was that the first time you played really big stadiums? Yeah, and the only show that wasn't seated was, I think, the Cow Palace. And that was great because our fans could come forward. But otherwise it'd be empty seats or a hippie giving you the finger or something. After this quick break, we'll be back with the rest of Kim Gordon and Leah Rose. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at an Oocla speed test, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage.

32:17With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity, even in times of high demand. With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients. And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite-to-mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business, Supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the U.S.