Loudon Wainwright III

27:57So it's always struck me that that's who I should be writing about. One of my favorite lines from your book is in reference, not to your work, but in reference to your father and mother. You're imagining how they came together, your father being an upper middle class guy, your mother from Georgia. You had a beautiful line, which was – it's basically about how men at some point, after they feel comfortable, feel the need to tell everybody what a piece of shit they are. And the line was, the confession of weakness to a woman is so often a search for sweet absolution. boy yeah you're good yeah you look surprised at that that's good and it certainly was the case in my my with my parents you know i can i i think i i might go you know somehow i think of them imagine you imagine your parents before before you were on the scene or even maybe the night after the moment after you were conceived you know lying in bed and undoubtedly my father would be smoking a cigarette and, you know, just unloading and talking about how he felt.

29:10And my mother was a good listener. In the end, the marriage didn't work out for, that could have been one of the problems. He didn't listen well enough or, you know, she didn't get a chance to unload her emotional baggage. Do you feel your confessional nature's in part looking for absolution? Is it a way of making amends to put it in song? There's plenty of amends to be made. I guess just writing about it maybe is saying, okay, here it is. Let's look at it for three minutes. Maybe that's part of some kind of amends process. But again, it can create distance too, and isolation. So I really don't know.

29:56Your father was also, I'm surprised to read, a successful short story writer, which he had to give up. Yeah. For family reasons. But tell me a bit about that. Well, you know, every young writer imagines and hopes to be in the New Yorker magazine. And my dad has had three of his short stories published in the New Yorker in the late 40s. and they are one in particular is brilliant and completely holds up a story he wrote about the boarding school that he went to that i actually went to to the same school and um so when he writes about it i can i can picture it in my own mind anyway the stories were in new yorker he was 22 or 23 whatever he was and boy that's the beginning of something big but he had a wife and and three small kids me and my brother and sister at that point and um they moved up to new york uh and he had to get a job and so he started to work for life magazine and he stayed at the magazine for his pretty much life so he never got to really focus on writing fiction then he tried to write a lot of you know non-fiction books and he had problems with that to, you know, the book was looming for him.

31:22So, you know. This is common among journalists. They think they've got to do their magnum opus. Yeah. Or they're just hats. And it was torture for him. But he was so successful as a journalist, as an editor, as a columnist. You know, his columns are also brilliant. And a few of them I printed in my book because I just wanted to share the work. I mean, the quality of the writing is so great. And then later I constructed a kind of theatrical show called Surviving Twin where I actually performed some of his columns. So it looked like, you know, it's such a pity that he couldn't have enjoyed his success, but he was tortured about the book.

32:05You know, the people he was writing with probably at that time were people like John Cheever. And you're often sort of thought of as this Cheever character. You went to private school. Yeah. Although from the sounds of it, you didn't like it. You went to boarding school. Didn't like it, but it sure had an impact on me. Oh, what was the impact? Yeah, it had a big effect on me. I mean, I referenced that in Delaware when I was younger. My very first song and my first record was about that boarding school. I have some gratitude about that boarding school. First of all, it was a good school. It is a good school.

32:37St. Andrews, it's in Delaware. But at the time, I was a miserable young man. I probably would have been miserable anywhere. So I'm not blaming my old boarding school. You just wanted your parents to pay for it. Right. Well, I didn't want to go. But my father, again, my father went to the same school. He was miserable. He thought I should go. And did his father go to that school as well? He didn't go to that school. He went to Trinity Pauling, I think, or something. My son Rufus went to boarding school. different school he went to millbrook and he succeeded and found himself kind of at millbrook i mean this is what i think i think it was a i think he wouldn't he would say that it was a good experience for him so i mentioned i started this by saying you know you're compared to cheever because of your background but to me you're more like updike and this is why when i read my girlfriend's gonna love this because she loves john updike she likes john updike okay well i've only really read the rabbit books but my issue with uh updike is he's kind of giving the game away of being a man he tells things about men and their wormy little desires and their awful behavior that i feel would be best not put out into the world yeah and you've got some of that you've You, you know, I think of songs like Four by Ten, One Man Guy, Less So.

34:13One of my favorite songs of yours was just called Men. I'm interested in what that part of it is like for you, to be a guy and kind of, you know, because guys are sort of taught not to emote, not to reveal ourselves. Or traditionally men were taught. Well, in songs, you know, my songs are written to be performed. You know, I mean, I make records, but I'm always thinking about what's this going to do to the 300 people or if it's good, maybe 3 ,000 people that are sitting out there in the dark. And talking about that stuff, you know, I feel safe. I mean, I know that there could be an eww factor, you know, but don't do that or don't say that or don't reveal that.

35:04But as a guy who wanted to be a performer, I just know that I can feel that it's doing something to the audience. It might be making them a little uncomfortable. I've had a tendency to do it. I don't quite know why, except that it seems to work for me. That's interesting. Even on this album, when you're writing these songs, you're thinking, how is this going to work live? How is it going to affect people? I think so. So when I'm actually, you know, I'm always thinking of that group of people in the audience. And will it have an effect on them? And it can be different effects. You know, some of the songs are funny.

35:48Some of them are not funny at all. Some of them can do both. They can swerve into, they have jokes planted in them. Comic relief, if you will, to use the theatrical term. But it's all about taking that three minutes or if it's a whole show, that 90 minutes and just taking them somewhere or dragging them somewhere. But that does sound like you conceive of your performances almost as theater. I think it is. You know, it's a way you're in the dark. You know, people are in the dark and they're watching you on stage and you're you're performing for them. It's an act. But again, it can create this magic.

36:32There can be magic there. Is that magic you feel when you're on stage? Is that kind of feeds your performance? Yeah. Yeah. It's a great feeling. When I was a kid and I was in school plays, I never was happier. Just showing off, just being there. I mean, I knew that's as good as it gets. And so songs like Your Mother and I, which is one of your most famous songs, that's a heartbreaking song, Hitting You, which is about hitting your daughter, realizing you've hit her too hard. Right. Losing it in anger, giving her a whack. That would be the story. But underlying the song is something I think that terrifies all parents is that you've broken something that can't be fixed.

37:25Yeah. When you get to those kind of lines, can you feel that reaction? You mean when I'm performing the song? Yeah. Yeah. Again, people coming up after a show and saying that song, you know, and you have the person, the kid that's getting whacked, but then you have the parent that did it and just thinks, oh, my God, I'm going to pay for this. You know, that was, I lost it, you know. And so it's a subject which is pretty powerful. Yeah. Speaking of your songs like Your Mother and I and other romantic songs or anti-romantic songs, you mentioned you come up with a syndrome in your book, Sir Walter Raleigh syndrome.

38:09Yeah. I'd love for you to explain that. The Sir Walter Raleigh syndrome. You know, Sir Walter Raleigh famously, I guess it was Elizabeth I, or some Elizabeth or other, you know, was walking along with the Queen, and there's a mud puddle, and he lays down his cape so that she doesn't get her, you know. And again, it's generational. My mother encouraged it, this thing, for just making sure that women are opening the door and giving them the chair and paying the check always. That's a role that some men do or have, and I certainly have it. But of course, what it does is it creates a kind of a resentment.

38:59Hey, why doesn't she walk around the damn mud puddle? You know, or get these capes, you know, I have to go to the dry cleaner again with these capes. Give me a break. You know, so it's a kind of a syndrome and it's probably not good for either the Queen or Sir Walter Raleigh. But in this case, I was identifying with Sir Walter Raleigh. And you've seen that resentment play. It's played out in my own life. Tell me about, I think it's just a beautiful song on the album, which is Back in Your Town. Back in Your Town, yeah. Thank you. That's a bit older. That's about 15 years older. 15 years old. You know, I had a, now she's a great friend of mine, Tracy McLeod.

39:49We lived together for a couple of years and she's English. So it was about going back to London and actually walking past her house in St. John's Wood where we live together. And just that feeling of, God, she's up there. And just being in the power of going back to that place. You have a line about feeling like a refugee and a louse? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's always tricky to come up with a word to rhyme with house. but you know you got mouse there aren't many but louse in this case seemed to work you have other songs like little piece of me which is about traveling are they all instigated by specific episodes i could see somebody writing uh back in your town and saying well that wasn't really about anybody that's just that feeling you get in another city but for you that was that very specific feeling.

40:48Well, again, in the process of writing it, I think of the specifics. I think of the town. I think of that person. I can picture that street. I know exactly where looking up into that window is. And again, we talked about my dad's influence, specificity. In the process, hopefully it's generic. Hopefully everybody can identify with it, But I work with the specifics of things. I also thought listening to that song, you have your dad's journalistic tendency, which is you never want to use the same word twice. So it's place or it's town, then it's place, then it's burg, which rhymes with curb, which means you can do that line about almost getting hit by a bus.

41:32Yeah. The only thing that the only thing that gives away the song is the double decker bus. I thought it must be England. I feel like I should play this song for you. Play it, please. For the people. Gosh.

41:51I'm back in your town. I'm walking around. Crossing the street. Unsure on my feet. And I'm carefully looking around. Because I'm back in your town Yes and I'm back in this bird Oh, haven't you heard I better look to the right A double-decker just might Hit me when I step off the curb I'm back in this bird Yes and I'm back in that place Last time I left with hardly a trace Now that I've returned Ask me what have I learned Go ahead and take a look on my face I'm back in that place You leave someone behind And you think you won't mind Until you go back and find You still can't Yeah, you're back where you started And the mind outsmarted By a feeling you thought wasn't there

43:34It's still there

43:51I'll walk right past your house Feeling like a refugee in a louse You were at home but you were not alone You were there with your kids and your spouse I walked right past your house So now I'm feeling bereft I'm feeling like I never even left Everything's changed, but it's the same It's still all here, but nothing is left I'm feeling bereft You leave someone behind And you think you won't mind Until you go back and find And you still care Yeah, you're back where you started I know mine I'm smarted by a feeling You thought wasn't there I'm back in your town I'm walking around Crossing the street I'm sure on my feet And I'm carefully looking around

45:25Oh, I'm back in your town

45:35One last break, and we'll be back with Loudon Wainwright III. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at an Oocla speed test, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity, even in times of high demand.

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47:02They're in the late night studio sessions, the chance encounters, and the cultural moments that shaped entire movements. For music lovers who find themselves going down rabbit holes about their favorite artists, Claude, an AI thinking partner, helps you explore those deeper questions. Whether you're wondering about the connections between different scenes, trying to understand what drove a particular creative period, or exploring how social movements influenced sound, Claude works through these complex cultural puzzles with you. It's built for people who know that understanding music means understanding the human stories behind it.

47:35Claude doesn't just compile facts. It helps you see patterns across decades of music history, ask the kinds of follow-up questions that reveal deeper truths, and works through the nuanced relationships between artists, movements, and moments. Whether you're a music journalist, industry professional, or someone who just lives for understanding the stories behind the sounds, Claude matches your level of curiosity about what really drives great art. Try Claude for free at claude.ai slash brokenrecord and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard, which I can appreciate as someone who holds themselves to lofty if not ridiculous standards, especially with the car I drive.

48:17The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them. machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. Before we go, I do want to ask you about a couple of our favorite people that you've worked with.

48:54And the first is Richard Thompson. Oh, yeah. You did, I think, two albums with him in the 80s. Tell me about that. Wow, Rich. In 1985 or 4, I'm talking about all my old gal friends. Susie Roach and I split up and I decided to go to England. And I actually went over there and bought a flat up in West Hampstead. And I had met Richard probably around 1978. And prior to that, I'd been a huge fan of his work. but we did some festivals and things together in 78. And so when I got over there, I was getting ready to make a record and I was talking to my friend Paul Charles and I said, what about if I ask Richard to produce it?

49:55And Paul said, yeah. And I asked him and he did it. It's a record called I'm All Right. And I should say that in the late 70s, I was making some overproduced, crappy records. They weren't totally crappy, but certainly there was an element of overproduction. So Richard and I talked about, and he suggested that if we do production, we're going to do production where the song is served by the production and not worry about getting it on the radio and stuff. And that's what we did with that record. And then we did another record called More Love Songs. Again, there's drums on it, and there's a bass on it, and there's stuff on it, but it doesn't get in the way of the songs.

50:45And of course, there's Richard's guitar playing, which is kind of ridiculously marvelous. So those records, I feel good about those records. They got nominated for Grammys, and people liked them a lot. And so I was very happy to work with Rich. And occasionally we get to do shows. He, last year, or I guess it was because of the pandemic, it was a couple of years ago, he celebrated his 70th birthday at a big show at Albert Hall in London. And I got to go and sing and play with him. And I love Rich. He's the greatest. I mean, I'm interested in you guys sitting with guitars because he is a brilliant guitarist.

51:29You are really underrated as a guitar player and as an instrumentalist, I think. Well, I play rhythm guitar. It's all about what's going on with the right hand because I can't really play any licks. I've played with great guitar players, Richard Thompson, Bill Frizzell, John Schofield. I mean, you know, these guys. but i i i'm i feel pretty good about my my rhythm guitar playing it's pretty solid now there's some beautiful instrumentation on this news this new album um lifetime achievement back in your town's got a beautiful treatment a little piece of me i think's got some well you also play banjo i play some banjo on the record and that's heim tannenbaum playing the other banjo my other great guitar player who's all over this record is david mansfield who's a great you know he's up there in that strata with those guys right also i would say richard thompson if there were a list of artists who have turned broken relationships into great art i i would say you two would be in the top five easily you know he is one of the great breakup albums of all time are you talking about shoot out the lights yeah yeah yeah that yeah that's a great great record And he and his wife, Linda, we should mention.

52:53Sure. Linda just had a birthday a couple of days ago. Yeah. Linda and Rich, I mean, they made those wonderful records. And talk about breakup albums. I saw some of the shows that they did to support Shoot Out the Lights. And boy, that was Strindberg on stage at the bottom line. I mean, it was ferociously, and it's so compelling. Of course, Richard, if you ask him, what's this one about, and what girl? He denies that it's autobiographical, but that's his option. The other person I wanted to ask about was Joe Henry. Yeah. Oh, well, yeah. A great, great songwriter. Great, great songwriter. Great producer.

53:46A great producer. We did a couple of records together. And great guy all around. Working with Joe. When Joe works, he gets together his group of players. And it's in the room and it's live. Greg Leese, David Pilch, Jay Bellerose, this amazing drummer that Joe likes to use, that T-Bone Burnett has now poached and taken away. but Joe's about getting guys in the room and just making it real in the room and then capturing the recording and he makes beautiful records with a lot of different people and writes wonderful songs Is that a way you like to record? It's fun to do it that way I've done it that way and when Joe's at the helm I feel confident when we did this last record Lifetime Achievement I went into the studio by myself with my guitar and laid down all my stuff beforehand.

54:45And then we added stuff. That's another way that I've worked, where you just get the core of what I do, which is me playing the guitar. And then Stuart and Dick Kinnett, they worked with, well, let's put Mansfield over here and Tannenbaum over here and maybe bring in a drummer secretly. And you'll add the drums after you lay down the rhythm track? On this record, we did. Yeah. That's interesting. Joe Henry is also a way of mentioning you guys worked on the Knocked Up soundtrack, which had Daughter, which is a great song of yours, which we haven't talked about. In fact, you do act all the time.

55:24You're in all kinds of things, always. Well, yeah, I get acting jobs. And Joe and I did do the Strange Weirdos record, which is kind of a soundtrack record for the Judd Apatow movie of Knocked Up. and Joe produced that record Daughter, which is from that album, which I have to say and admit to you that I did not write. No. A lot of people think I wrote it. It was written by the... I'm so effusive with my praise today, with the wonderful, incredible songwriter Peter Blegvad. He wrote Daughter, and I sang it and we recorded it, but a lot of people think that I wrote Daughter. I wish I had, but I didn't.

56:13Just take it. When I was just reading things about this album and about what you're doing now, I came across the NPR review of the album. And I don't know if you read that or not. But there was a paragraph that jumped out at me, which was, well before owning up to privilege was a thing, Wainwright had made a career out of being honest about his white Anglo-Saxon Protestant upbringing, freely admitting that male wasps like him got away with far too much. Now, I guess that's accurate. It feels a little... Sounds a little up-dikey. A little up-dikey, a little hostile. You know, the world has changed in the way we think about families and men and women and relationships has changed.

57:05Could you be the same singer-songwriter coming up today? You mean, could I get away with it? Yes. Yes, that's what you mean? In a way, yes. Probably not. I mean, there's so much that you can't get away with today. You know, I'm thinking, on my second album, there's a song called Motel Blues, which you know joe henry recorded it on the record that we did call recovery with with his band it's a good song it's a great song uh it's about being lonely and about trying to lure uh a a woman up to my room to be because i'm lonely and and uh that's what it's about and uh come and save my life right it's a come up to my motel room save my life and then it then it says come up to my motel room sleep with me so could you do that now i don't know uh but uh or would i've written that now i'd like to think that i would have because it's what happened and it doesn't happen now now it's come up to my motel room and show me how to work the wi-fi you know so it's not really an issue for me now but as a 22 year old lonely touring musician you know it was what was going on so i wrote about it listen thank you so much oh i've enjoyed talking with you just great talking and uh a great album another great album thank you so much thank you in the episode description you'll find a link to a playlist of our favorite Loudon Wainwright III tracks, as well as his latest album, Lifetime Achievement.

58:51Be sure to check out youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast to see all our video interviews. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at thebrokenrecordpod. You can follow us on Twitter at brokenrecord. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Polliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions.

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59:39The more you learn about your favorite artists, the more you want to know. Claude helps you keep digging, finding new threads and rabbit holes to explore. Whether it's discovering deeper meaning behind a detail in an interview or figuring out the influence behind an artist's particular era, Claude thinks with you to find the next clue. If you can't get enough of the stories behind your favorite music and artists, Claude will help you discover new layers you didn't know existed. Try Claude for free at claude.ai slash brokenrecord. This is an ad by BetterHelp. We've all had that epic rideshare experience.

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