Meshell Ndegeocello/Don Was

32:02Chris, too, who I met during Bitter, which was a very hard time, a record people didn't like, but he introduced me to T-Rex and all these other amazing bands I would have not come in contact with. Jeb and Bruni, I mean, just a genius programmer and player. I just feel like I've met people where I feel like we're growing we're not in a time. Like sometimes you have a band and that band is a time. You know, you did this together and you're going to keep doing that the same way for the rest of your life. And this is the first time I'm like, are you going to play the keyboard on this? I don't know, maybe I'll play, let's get some vibes happening.

32:49You know, everyone's open to change and growth and we respect each other's individuality. And we've been through a lot together, both joyful and not so joyful. So it's a good bond. That level of freedom you experience with you guys now, it's like, who's playing what? How does that play out when you're writing? Has it impacted the way you write? Oh, yeah. Yeah, like Omnicord is a very special record because I had so much time off. You know, COVID was a life-changing experience for me. I actually, I have a house in the woods and I got to be in that house for long periods of time and just be with myself.

33:40And so I had some different instruments to work with. And we were working a lot on score, the four of us, the core group. We did like several TV shows and we made, yeah, we just made a lot of music together in a very compressed experience. So it changed the writing in the sense of like, I have an idea, send it back, do this, do that. And I really wanted to get out of that. And so we, I collected a bunch of songs, but we went into the studio together to complete the writing. Like we knew that together things would, it was just germination and then we'd all come together and things would come to start to sprout and grow.

34:23Can you describe that a little more in depth? Like you come in with a rough idea in a session and does everyone just set up and start playing and you pull out the good ideas and you keep refining it? How does that work? Well, first I'll say I think that your demos are a world of their own. like they're they're amazing that they kind of it's all there somehow and then you have you have a great ability of letting go and then trusting the people in the room to take your shell of an idea and make it their own and i think that's the kind of the process it's never really talked about like hey i think it should be the you should play this drum beat or you should play these particular chords it's just more like the feeling it's like let's try and tap into that feeling and how you would um you know your your own version of that yeah through your body yeah is that what you're listening for then when when you get demos yeah totally um for sure it's just like what is the for instance if it's like i'm trying to recreate a beat or something i'm never yeah we're not trying to recreate are we we're just trying to like tap into the feeling of what a beat does or if it if the rhythm of it or maybe the lack of rhythm in it um so it's just like trying to you know and like i we're also a band and like they can be conversations about where's the one but that that and usually if we get to that if we get to that place that's if we're trying to like quantify where it is usually that's not a good thing so it's just like you if you hear it that's fine also if you get to know me this is a facade i don't really talk a lot and i'm like we're never all going to get together.

36:09Like, let's talk about where the music goes. I'm going for that tone. You know, I'm not that person. I'll just, I have to trust the musician or I'm getting a part that someone's trying to do something. And I'd rather you be inspired by the part to do something, not do my part. Because that's how it feels as being the so-called leader. and I think that's kind of limiting to the song and the Omnicore Real book was my hope. Like when my father gave me that book on that first gig was to create things that musicians like to play. Like their foundational understandings of harmony and a rhythm and a time but you have to add something to it to make it feel good for us and that's how I approached the last record.

37:02you know just like here's some ideas but you know a broke some songs and then and we just all sort of come together and create you know it feels communal it's a community and a lot of ruthless editing you know as a master editor ruthless i'm a ruthless editor really do you actually sit behind push people away and sit behind the computer i make people leave so i can sit and listen because Is the talking while you're listening, I can't deal with. Like if we're going to listen to the track back, we're going to listen. And I try not to listen, which I just worked on a project that's really serious jazz.

37:46And I really struggle when we come back to the listening and they only listen to their part. And they don't listen as a whole. You can't tell me what the bass player play. You're just listening to yourself. And it becomes myopic. And so that's my only other thing. Like when we listen, we're going to listen. And you can tell because we know each other when we'll go like, let's do it again. We just immediately go back and do it again. Or we go like, take a break. Just step away from it. And just let it sit for a minute instead of finding a problem. Because sometimes, I'm learning too after time.

38:27I mean, are you really nitpicking or can you trust yourself now? After 30 years of making records, at what point do you go like, that's a good take. And luckily, I have a younger person who's like, he'll just tell you like, no, I'm not. That's great. I'm good. I'm not doing it again. You know, Chris, I have people around me like, no, that's good. Stop. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And I'm like, you're right. on that jazz project you were talking about did you get over that hump of everyone just listening to their I just observe the energy I just had now I would never have I just observe I watch them and I listen and then I have to figure out how to communicate something that perhaps they could do differently you know but I'm learning it's a different time now from the conversation.

39:28We were having this conversation about legacy and you have to learn from the past and you study a certain thing to get good at it. But I'm encountering a lot of youth who are very studied. And I just wonder, I'm now asking the question, how do I get you to let go of perfectionism or some idea of how something should be so you can flail and within that find something else and that's my only dogma i remember doing sessions with shaka khan and i used to just be enamored with my friend david gamson and she would sing like 10 lemons i mean 20 50 lemons incredible lemons too like preserved lemons just and then she'd be like I feel it I feel something in that one and then she'd build but there's never this like yeah she's just like you know sometimes you know it's fun unbothered by I'm unbothered by I don't care who's listening yeah like yeah I'm not afraid who's listening, I can just, I might make, like, that's how I'm going to find where I want to be.

40:48If you're producing an artist as opposed to being the artist, how does it change your approach to the studio? Depends on what kind of music. Depends on what kind of music. When it's like a production where it's like we're programming, It's like we're writing vocal parts, you know, like just a certain sort of pop R &B thing. It's really a detailed interaction. Yeah, minutia. I got to get a lot of just getting the person comfortable. But I'm dying to do more sessions where, like, let's make a record in three days. We're just going to play live. We're going to have one day of rehearsal. We're going to play it.

41:34You're going to trust yourself. And I find a lot of people aren't really up for that. Um, nope. But I just try to be, um, and I guess it's my age and coming to understand myself as a two-spirit person. I think there's part of me that understands competition, the need for self-expression as a musician, and that wanting to soar. and then the other part of me understands like you are giving of yourself how can i make this a good experience for you sorry it makes me cry like how can i help you make something and feel really good about it and i'm glad i'm learning to balance those two natures one that's like I hear you man let's hit beast mode right yeah you're here with your brothers and sisters and let's hit beast mode but then there's the part of me that there has to be someone there who's like how you feeling, you okay you know you need to take a break you need to walk away from that let's walk away from that let's try another color you know I'm not there to tear you down, which I come from the 80s and 90s, where kind of the producer was there to poke the bear, you know?

43:04There's this idea that this should be like a tussle a little bit, and I don't think I want to be that. I want to be the mixture of Rudy Van Gelder, Craig Street, Brian Eno. Arif. Arif. Arif. Arif Mardini, yeah. Yeah. And Mary Oliver, you know, and and also not be afraid of the dark. Like there's a writer I love named Sheila Hetty and just try to get to you in a way where you're just not like singing and dancing. I want you to have an experience with the music. After this last break, we'll be back with the rest of our conversation with Michelle Indeggio Cello and A. Browns. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

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46:47Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. Here's the rest of our conversation. I mean, maybe we can talk about some of those people, what those people mean to you. Rudy Van Gelder is a name that doesn't get talked about. Sonic and the Blade. He's Sonic and the Blade, ultimate ruthless editor. Craig Street creates an environment for you where you can do your best. You know, Don was. People person, right studio, Sonic genius, arrangement enhancer. That's what I found out a couple of things about.

47:30But, you know, there's that because that's a part of production I feel is lost. The arrangement aspect. You can have a great melody, great head, but who's going to help you put that in a, put the steak on a nice plate instead of the trash can lid? It's a great steak still, right? But how you serve it to me is going to, that's going to affect me. Like, there's just so many styles of production too. Yeah. Yeah. He's producing in this period of time as a young person. I think it means different things. It means I made the whole track for you and you sing on it. And I think it's got budgets too. Yeah, we had budgets to go where we could...

48:12Small budgets. These days everyone can make something that sounds great in a room by themselves. But I don't envy him because I also grew up with deadlines. I made music when there's like, you mix that in two days, that's done. I got to take the tape off and turn the knobs back and zero the board so I can do the next mix. There's no going back because going back costs the whole mix. I feel like there's so many takes. Yes, you can piece me together. I don't have to be able to play through the whole track. That's a difference. And I think that affects how things feel. Are you too young to have worked with analog tape?

48:52No, yeah, I totally know how to cut tape. You do, yeah. I went to engineering school with Bob Yesbeck. He makes sailing. Nice. Christopher Cross. One of my favorites. But yeah, I'm a Luddite. I'm not keeping up. I'm really one of those people. I miss the time it takes for the tape to rewind. So you're just not listening to each section. Go to bar 40 and you're just on 40 to 43. Go to bar 10 and we'll stay there. and I'm just like, there's no song to me anymore. I'm like, I've lost all contacts. He'll tell you. I'll be just like, I'll come back when y 'all are done. I'll just be like, I have no idea what's going on.

49:34Who listens that way? And I'm one of those people, I want to make songs for the people who are in their Prius and they're trying to get to work or get to the Charger before anyone else and they just want to have a good time. And it sounds good and it feels good. The new record feels really good. Really, really good. I appreciate that. And it's a lot of you. I was texting Abe a couple nights ago. There's so many different singers, too, on the record. Like you and Jade Hicks, who I don't know who Jade Hicks is. You guys sound incredible together. Yes, you should know who Jade Hicks is.

50:13There are a family of singers. Justin Hicks, Jade Hicks, and Kenita Miller. The Hot Plates. Yeah, and they're from Indiana. They are preacher's children. But that's the other thing. Sorry if I'm long-winded. I was given so many great opportunities by other musicians. And I really feel the Omni Chord is that, for me, I think they are some of the greatest songwriters and singers. There's Tandisa Masway, who's from South African, who I think is a genius. I just produced something that's coming out with her soon. I mean, yeah, I just want to share all that I've been able to experience as a musician, travel and playing for people.

51:04And that's what all the vocalists mean for me. Like, no one does anything alone. And I also am not a dinosaur. I can see the meteor coming. And as I watch other musicians age and change, because I'm 56, and there's no way I'm trying to be up there singing and dancing for the rest of my life. And I just want to be a good springboard for other people to do their craft and do their thing. And it's a blessing. I learned so much. there's an amazing song I think is I think it's one it's on the Dylan level lyrically which is Gatsby which is written by Samora Penderhughes and like hearing that song it just it's that feeling you have when you're like God it's saying everything I wish I could say and I hadn't had that feeling since hearing Prince when I was 16 and I heard that song and I was like and that's my way I think he's a genius and I want more people to be exposed to him.

52:06And then it shows the arrangement talents and gifts of Corey Henry, who takes. Because if you listen to both versions, that's what I'm hoping. Here where he took the harmony. Has Joel Ross, where I'm like, virtuosic. But I really loved setting him into a more African diaspora with the barimba, the vibes on a few of the tunes. It's not like people are listening for his blazing. It's just like, look how he rhythmically is fitting here and his songwriting improvisation. You know, I just wanted to be like, people do a lot of things. Josh Johnson. Same as Josh Johnson, yeah. Just if I may talk about him.

52:50Secret weapon. I was here in L.A. to score for a TV show. And I lived here months at a time. Months, like, and I would go to the ETA to see Josh. which is a jazz club in highland park oh cool and bell bell rose she's unfortunately not around anymore but rest in peace i know right that's really sad i know and i that was my sucker that was my like i would just go there and i know i would hear something interesting and i i heard him play and then that one day i was watching tv and he was the keyboard player for leon bridges and there was just all these things coming out and it was so musical and I wanted a producer because also eventually you need someone to help you I'm lucky I have real friends like let's get some help and I wanted someone who we all respected and loved and who knew us and Josh Johnson said yes and that was like a game changer because he brought something none of us had and he wasn't attached to us, and attached to me being something.

54:03But what's it that he brought? Openness, clarity, virtuosity, and harmony and melodic sonic textures that I probably wouldn't have got to on the sax. He allowed me to bring Oliver Lakes. Oliver can compose. He can't play anymore because of Parkinson's. and I felt Josh had a similar spirit in essence of heart, but also he could take the charts and bring them to life. So that's Josh playing what Oliver composed? Yes. Wow. I didn't realize that. Yeah. But also no attachment to us being anything, you know, which we've experienced. And I think we behaved better amongst ourselves in the studio having a fifth band member essentially who would play with us sometimes but would just listen to the controller and we were trying our best because you know we tour a lot we're all together a lot so there's band dynamics which exist and like it was great to have somebody there who just made it all feel like just a bit more relaxed and like your Billy Preston Yeah, he was.

55:13Yeah, he was. In some way, he's Billy Preston. Yes, good. Yeah, he was our fifth Beatle. Yeah. You recorded with Billy Preston, right? Oh, yeah, definitely, on the second record. A few cuts, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's amazing. Oh, God, just touch it, your neck bob. I can't explain it, it's nothing like it. You're just like, oh, my God. What was it like being around him? You really want to go there? Yeah, I want to go there. Well, I had a son at the time, and David Gamson told me not to bring my son to the session, to be honest. And he was just someone who lived in my mind on a record. So I didn't really go with any expectations.

55:54I just went to play, but he was another one. Very little talking. Very little talking. And we put up the, and he would just play. He'd be like, you like that one? And Dave would be like, yeah, you got another one in you? And he would do another one and be different and fantastic. And then just to the point where Dave was like, let me not abuse this man's kindness. But it was just like watching a master. I was very young then and not so adept that I should have went and talked to him. But I just had others around me who were like, let's leave him alone at that period of time in his life. But I mean, it's amazing to have Billy Preston.

56:39Not so much for the Beatles, but for me, that's Nat King Cole's. It was like seeing someone my parents loved. It was like adoration and also just reverie. He was the original B3 guy. Yes. but it wasn't in it was in church yes and uh he was the rock he played with little richard you know they didn't have b3 and they didn't have rock and roll before and i always thought what he did with the drawbars yeah he painted like you paint he he created sonic worlds that were very emotional by playing with the drawbars which is getting to be kind of a lost art. Yeah. Oh, you got to hear this cat named Jake Sherman, though.

57:33Good. He's the truth. But yeah, plus the organ for me is like, I call it the chocolate spaceship. It just, it is, it just can take you somewhere. And that's the thing I did notice. It was not only was he like rhythmically just, I hate that word, funky, but he was just the funkiest first ever in my life. He has the most unique pocket. The block was insane. But you're right. He could create, it was like he was playing a synth. And if you listen, he plays on Who Is He? And it's like, it's chucking, but then you hear these other colors that he's just doing in between the verses. And it's him like padding with the bars.

58:16That session had Paul Reiser. And I remember just being enamored by him, to be honest. That's what I, meeting him was like a dream. He did the arrangement to Rocket Love. And we found him. Like, he was unhoused.

58:36In Detroit. In Detroit. And we flew him in. And it was really hard. Because this was before, you know, just getting him the plane ticket, getting him on the plane. And he finally got there. And he literally came with nothing. Like, just his body. And we were like, do you have any charts? He's like, right here. Take me to Kinko's. Take me to Kinko's. Yeah. He used to write stuff, you know, in a taxi cab on the way to the sessions. Frightening. Yeah. Just frightening, though. Which is frightening because you have a whole session waiting for the guy. But he delivers. Oh, rocket love. Yeah, sure. And then the show.

59:23I didn't realize it was Paul. That's what took over the Billy Preston session. I had never listened to the strings in that, really. Died unhoused with nothing. Okay? That's the whole, that to me, that Motown world must have been rough. I can't imagine. What made you go after? What made you want to get him for that record? That. Papa was Rolling Stone. Those strings. All the Marvin and Tammy stuff. Yeah, he's quintessential to your listening experience, and no one knows it's him. He did Never Too Much. He did that Lucifer Androsel. He did Never Too Much? Yeah. Those strings are ridiculous, too.

1:00:04Right? He did Norman Whitfield stuff. He did all the Marvin and Tammy, which is just all those flute. Encyclopedia right there. Yeah. And all in his head. Take me to Kinko's. Take me to Kinko's. Take me to Kinko's. Is that what he said? That's hilarious. And the sweetest guy, too. He just wanted to go, like, I want to go eat. I remember that to me. And Dave was like, you want to eat? What do you want to eat? And he was like, this is what I want. And we were like, let's take it, eat. Whatever you want to do. You know? He wrote What Becomes a Broken Heart. He did? Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, he wrote the music.

1:00:47Wow. Wow. It's a gorgeous song. Just real deep, man. Those voicings. Yeah, just like that is amazing. Amazing. Hindsight, yeah. It all comes back to me. I just remember being completely enchanted by him. You got to, on those first couple of records too, you got to have a play with Benny Maupin and Bill Summers too. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And again, and why do I want, you know, Headhunters? Life-changing to me as a bass player. Yeah, as a bass player. That's the reason I play Flatwounds. Yeah. Yeah, I remember, I was just like, that guy's going to give it the Flatwound game. That's when you changed the Flatwounds?

1:01:32Changed the Flatwounds immediately. I was thinking about how you referenced a couple of times that bitter, no one liked. I feel like you've said a couple of times, maybe I'm paraphrasing, but no one liked bitter. That's the best-selling one, though, now. You're right. I mean, when I handed it in. You mean the label didn't like it. The label didn't like it. So did that color your perception of the album, the label's reaction? Yeah. Yes, it did. Yeah. I started the record with David Gamson, who had did the first two. And we went in for a meeting, and they didn't like it. And they fired him right there in front of me.

1:02:13What did they not like? Do you remember? They told me I should make black music. Okay. To be honest, if you want to be honest. Was it a black guy? No, no, no. The head of the label said that, along with two other A &R people. You should make black. No reference to what black would... Oh, I didn't have the wherewithal to come back with any witty repartee at that time. I'm kind of like, yeah, I wasn't really, I just was crushed, I think. I'm like literal spice, you know. I just was like, I just couldn't compute. And at that time, it's funny you asked me that question about was I sober. Bitter is completely sober record.

1:03:06It was the moment, like, I wanted to change my life. I moved from an urban situation to L.A. I was like, you have palm trees? I'd rather struggle here by the beach. And it was like I felt I was at the best in my life on that record. And then I handed it in, and they were just like, no. Absolutely not. And so I had a little bit of the budget left, and I called my dear friend Craig Street. He produced Nora Jones, Cassandra Wilson, just a life-changing person in my life. I met him when I was like 20. He was plastering walls, and he heard my demo and got me some work. But I called him, and that's where I met Chris Bruce and Doyle Bramhall.

1:04:02Wendy Melvon plays on that record. Abe Laborial Jr. just yeah so the record you hear as Bitter Now I was feeling great and completely clear in my mind and you do all that and we did it in five days it's a five day record you know five day record because that's the thing about Craig too why I want to bring that back working with him been some great experience in making records and they're done with a deadline with a certain amount of time. And Bitter was one of those. Like, this is what we got. We're done. It's done. Go mix it. So you worked on it first with David Gamson and then Craig Strupp. How much of the stuff with Gamson is still on the record that we hear?

1:04:52Nothing. Nothing. The only song I knew I wanted to do with David because I really liked singing with David was Fool With Me. That's a great song. beyond the record labels you know rebuke of it which you know whatever did did it did it feel how did that feel putting that out i mean it almost feels like it almost feels like the the the musical equivalent of like putting an autobiography out of almost like wow i'm really this is oh i mean we're artists are self-absorbed i wasn't thinking about that at that time i was I was like, that's what I feel. You're in your own cathartic self-absorption. I didn't really think about any of that.

1:05:35It was just I had to go tour a record with no support. That's all. I was like, I have a record that no one. And they kind of shelved it, and that was cool. And that shows you the beauty of the cross-pollination of film, TV, and music. Someone used it in a film, and then that changed the whole trajectory of the record. You know, I learned a lot from that experience. It made me want to go and hide. But at the same time, that's the moment I had to realize. That's where you click in and go, they're not important. They're just a patron. I don't feel this about you. See, that's funny. This is why this relationship is so different being on Blue Note now, because I am older and more present in myself.

1:06:22I see that we're working together to bring something fruition. I was at a that was at a time on Maverick where you're just the tax write-off or the artist I need you to make hits you know and so when they didn't like it I just kind of moved on in my mind of like I've got I met Wendy Melvo and Lisa you know Coleman I'm good I played with Abe Laboreal and we made loops together I'm good I met Doyle Bramhall who is like how did you meet Doyle he came to that session with Wendy. They were working on his record. And that is like, yeah, I was like, I'm good. I met him. And I only say this because they always remind me.

1:07:01I met him. I was like, if I played like you, I wouldn't need nobody. No girlfriend, no nothing. If I just be with myself listening to myself, I'd just be like, look at me go. I'm amazing. What an endorsement. Oh, no, he is like amazing. I just would be like, I don't need you. Do you still play with Doyle ever? I want to. He just, he is, he is, he's floating around the world. It'll come together soon. Yeah. Okay. Okay. He's floating. Did you meet, you knew Prince before Lisa and Wendy? No, no. I had a choice to sign to his label or Madonna's label or Warner Brothers. Paisley Park. Paisley Park, Warner's.

1:07:50Warner or Maverick. and I was working with Benny Medina and Peter Edge. Yeah, they were the people that brought me there. And Peter and Benny were like, do not go to the Prince label. You know, they were nice about it. Was the slave stuff happening already? No, that was after. Yeah, and I was like, really? I was just like, because that was going to be my, I was like, I'm going there. And they were like, nah, don't go there. Go here. You'll be the second artist they sign. You'll get a lot of, just, it's all under Warners. Just go here. And I was like, okay. And so I chose that. But I talked to him on the phone, but him and I never really had good interactions.

1:08:25Okay. I can't say why, but I loved him. He's a great inspiration. I think him and I would have had a much better relationship outside of cameras and things like that. I think he had a lot of expectations, and I'm a pretty regular person. I'm really easy going and there's a lot of energy and stuff around him at that time. And so I just sort of knew I should pull back. And he could be harsh if you did something he felt you shouldn't do. You went to the studio with him? I went to the studio with him. You did? Mm-hmm. A couple of times. In Minnesota? in New York yeah like what did you guys work was it for you or for him for him yeah but it's a lot it's a lot of it's how do I say this

1:09:34I met Wendy and Lisa before I met him and they told me maintain yourself don't drink the Kool-Aid just to be honest that's what they said verbatim and i had to and i could see how you like it's mesmerizing to point you lose yourself and i'm i just refused i don't that i didn't want that in my life at that time just just the aura the aura the demand the view uh plus i worked i mean yeah he just could be he could be difficult and and opinionated in a way because i try not i don't and everyone's speak ill of those who are not here to speak for themselves. But it was complicated. I wish I could. I can't imagine what it was like to be him.

1:10:21I really cannot. Unfathomable. You know, not just the gift, but just being someone where, like, you had to stare at him. He was the most captivating person, you know? Do you remember First Encounter and his music? Oh, exactly. I know exactly where I was. I was 12 and I was at a party my parents were at and they were all upstairs playing cards or something and it was the 4U record and I played it and I'd never heard anything like that in my life and that's the moment I said I'm going to be a musician. And that's what he means to me. That's the moment I was like I'm going to be a musician. That's what I want to do.

1:11:02Wow. What drew you to it? The photo? Oh yeah, the photo of him and his eyes are going back in the afro and he's sitting on the back naked on a horse. Oh, my God. You're 12, you know. Your hormones are kicking. It's nothing like it. Just putting myself in your situation, if at that time I had heard Prince was interested in Siam, there would have been nothing stopping me. Like, there's nothing stopping me from... Oh, yes, there was. Sheena Easton, you know, he put out music and he wouldn't let the person be. Yes, there were, you know, like having your own label, you have to, do you want to make...

1:11:36There's a brand to consider, but at that time, he was the brand. And I think I want to make something different. And to be honest, I'm going to say it. I think I was just a little too urban for him. I'm a little, I have a little more edge. I'm a little less Hollywood. I'm not, I'm not, the lights don't fool me. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Being labeled, messed with Madonna versus Carmen Electra, I guess too, is a little different. It's a little different ego there. Different vibration, yeah. Different parties, too. Let me tell you. Different party scene. I'd like to have seen both. Woo! Okay. Well, do you remember, like, going to one of your first parties?

1:12:23Were you just like, you know, a Madonna? Yeah, one of my first parties was the book party, the sex book party. For the sex book? Yeah. The release party? Oh, yeah. That was like, oh, okay. Yeah. It was a different thing. Was Big Daddy Kane there? Yes. Yes, he was. All of him. Wow. That's an... Yeah. Wow. Didn't you go into the, like, you went on, like, just to meet her at the library or something? You invited her to the library. Oh, yeah, invited to the library. I made a mistake. I realized, you can't come to the library, girl. You invited to the museum. Yeah, the Met. The Met. I was like, let's go to the Met.

1:12:59And then I was like, oh, and then all these people came. I was like, this is not, I just want, yeah. She agreed to it. Yeah, she was like, great. And then, yeah, and I was like, that's not happening. But that's the Prince thing, too. It's like, we can't go hang out. It's never going to be like I can cook for you or make it, you know. It's just, you're larger than life. I didn't realize until we were going to do this that you, your contribution to Bedtime Store, that was supposed to be Tupac? That was supposed to be Pac? Yeah. Rest in peace. Yeah. Did you know that at the time? Yeah, we all knew that at the time.

1:13:44You knew that. You were like, I'm right. I was like, we have a problem. You know, like, record needs to be done. Because it was very close to that. Yeah. You know? Did you meet Pac? Oh, yeah, several times. So I'm like, yeah, such a kind man in my experience of him. And he spent time in Baltimore, too. So I guess you would have understood the DMV thing. I remember the last time we were, it was a Ben Harper show. We ran to each other. Ben Harper. Ben Harper. What a time to be alive. Wow. Ben Harper talking to you. Yeah. I met Rick James. That's a big one for me. Rick James and Elder Barge came to one of my shows.

1:14:21And I do brag about that. Together? They came together? Together. together and they hung out together the whole night and they were on 10 and they came in the dressing room and sung for us at the piano it was incredible they just said this was jamming out i do brag about that one they came they came to your show and saying my show and then hung out in the dressing room and saying they were feeling it they was feeling it they were very alive together. Oh, man. Yeah, that's a good one. That's a highlight for me. And Larry Graham. Larry Graham and Marcus Miller stood on the side of the stage while I played.

1:15:03Come on. That's hard. What would you do? No, I was still young and full of collagen. I was just like, I'm going to play the hell out of the bass. So it inspired you rather than it did not intimidate. Who's your favorite bass player? Probably James Jamison, Willie Dixon. Billy Dixon. I just, yeah. But, you know, Ron Carter, too. How's your upright? You blew my mind. I was telling her, we were on the phone maybe a year ago, and I was telling her I took a lesson from Ron Carter, and he showed me a thing about releasing the notes. And I asked her how she did it, but she misunderstood what I was saying, and she told me when she did it.

1:15:48which she said, well, I release it like in rhythm with the hi-hat. Releasing the note is as important to the groove as attacking the note. And that just never crossed my mind before. Wow. But that could be go-go thing, too. You've got to make all that space. Well, I worked on that. I was on tour when I talked to you, and that's all I thought about for the rest of the tour. And it changed. It wasn't long enough to internalize it fully, but it changed the way I approached it. And when you change that, then you change the next note that you choose. So it set the tour alight, man. It was fantastic.

1:16:33Like six months, I rode that wave. What is your relationship with America, I guess? You grew up in the nation's capital. Your dad was a military man. You almost joined the military? I almost joined the military, yeah. I took the ASFAB test. I was hoping to get into the Air Force, but I only scored high enough to get in the Army. I don't know if they tell people that. Oh, man. Yeah, I just thought there was no future. The way I grew up, it was really hard, and not being educated. I thought that would be the path for me, but could you imagine me with a gun? exactly being angry can you imagine the energy I have on that first record and I have guts

1:17:27yeah I'd be a different person you know but my father was in the military and that military changed my life did he want you to join? yeah yes yeah everyone did that I'm I'm born August 29, 1968. Okay? I am as old as civil rights is. And when I was growing up, you know, my mother was like, you need to get a post office job, or you need to figure out how to go to community college, or join the military. Those were your options. Like, that's what was expected of me. You know? My mother has a fourth grade education and my father only graduated high school. So, you know, their dream for me was just to find something solid.

1:18:21So, of course, yeah. I mean, my relationship with America is I am the offspring of an obsolete machine. You can't legislate kindness. You can't make a law that's going to make you treat me differently from, you know, by the color of my skin. but I can't imagine what it was like for them to grow up way before me and have the experiences they had and raise children and try to be a healthy human being. I was angry at my parents, angry at my upbringing, and I have to realize that we're all, all Americans, are subject to living somewhere where it's sort of a revisionist history. I have to realize I can't think about my freedom-loving fathers who made the Constitution.

1:19:14That's not my story. So I no longer connect to it. As an American, I feel like it's complicated, and we need a lot more nuanced conversations. but I know in my heart of hearts that we all, no matter your race, your gender, whatever, all these, these, these like generalizations you want to get under little flags, that at the bottom of it, you're just a human being trying to make the best of this unexplainable experience. And so I just want to cause less confusion, cause less problems. And whenever you can encounter people and share this message of love without sounding hokey. That's what I try to do.

1:19:56You know, no one has any answers. I no longer, I don't believe in power anymore. I think I was raised to think like, woo, you need to gain power. And I have no interest in power anymore. I'm really into like, yeah, what kind of exchange can we have? Like I won a Grammy this year and people asked me about it and I had the deepest depression after it you know and then you know I had to start just configuring in my journal like come on see the positive things of it you know and I realized most positive thing for me if you don't mind was I went with Abe and you know when you win the Grammy they usher you through the back like take a picture drop the grammy take another one take another picture go to the press blah blah blah and in the press thing you know something kind of messed up happened someone mistaked me they were like what's it like playing with David Bowie because I look like Gail Ann Dorsey or you know just limited in their scope but that and I was like I let it I was like pew I said let's talk about race actually to the reporter shut down all interviews and then that's when I realized like this is not my thing you know I want to I'm always going to focus on the music.

1:21:15But the other highlight was we're in the lounge with all the people who won. And this man comes over and just starts what I call talking at me. When you just talk at me. We're not talking. You're just at me. He's talking and talking. And I could feel Abe's energy change. Like just Abe is like, oh, my God, a flower. But his whole energy change. Like, you don't remember me? and I was like what is happening to the guy he said it's to the guy you don't remember me and I was like whoa so I just stepped back a little bit and he was like you were my teacher and he my teacher my drum teacher at college wow they did not recognize me at all wow and wasn't nice to him wasn't trying to recognize you probably but wasn't nice to him what did he tell you when you were in class school he said that you're right hand dominant so you'll never ever get called to play on a record a teacher at Berklee?

1:22:22yeah so then that again another moment of like this is why I'm here because this is hilarious yeah we had a good yeah we were just like his right hand is killing yeah his right hand is real dominant Did you actually get to say that? No, I just felt in my heart I wanted him. I could see these were two men, and they need to have that interaction. But I was like, this is why I'm here. This is why I won. This moment is why I won. It's my own low self-esteem. Did I deserve it? Is it real? What's it mean? You go through it, and then you have a moment where it's like, ah, nothing to do with you. none of this has anything to do with you.

1:23:11You know? It's these moments that are important. It's all the people that help make the record that will hopefully have other experiences come from that record. Everyone has something they believe in. But if we're going to make this country, this experiment work, the best I can do is cause less less fire less fire thanks Michelle and A appreciate you guys appreciate you having us and much success to you it's such an honor to be here it's an honor to have you yeah for sure thanks so much to Michelle and Deggio Cello and A Browns for talking about their close collaboration together and their two new projects out on Blue Note Records.

1:24:02You can hear those albums in a playlist of some of our favorite tracks from Michelle and Abe on a playlist at brokenrecordpodcast.com or in our episode description. You can also watch this interview and other recent episodes at youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at thebrokenrecordpod. You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Toleroy. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.

1:24:40Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.

1:25:04The more you learn about your favorite artists, the more you want to know. Claude helps you keep digging, finding new threads and rabbit holes to explore. Whether it's discovering deeper meaning behind a detail in an interview, or figuring out the influence behind an artist's particular era, Claude thinks with you to find the next clue. If you can't get enough of the stories behind your favorite music and artists, Cloud will help you discover new layers you didn't know existed. Try Cloud for free at cloud.ai slash broken record. This episode of Broken Record is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve.

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1:26:14Subject to credit approval, terms apply. I'm Glenn Washington, the host of KQED's Snap Judgment podcast. And at Snap, we don't just tell stories. We live them. Every week, a different journey, like on a plane with Rihanna. A racetrack in Tijuana. A year inside an Oakland homeless encampment. Real people, real voices with original music and cinematic sound. Snap Judgment from KQED. New episodes every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Thank you.