Mike Shinoda

0:06Pushkin.

0:10Mike Shinoda took a bold step last fall when he reintroduced Linkin Park with a new line up featuring drummer Colin Britton and singer Emily Armstrong as lead vocalist, taking the role once held by Chester Bennington. Mike, who co-founded Linkin Park in 96, has long served as the group's de facto producer, as well as its emcee and keyboardist. The band rose to massive success in the 2000s with the run of new metal albums that have collectively sold more than 10 million copies worldwide. In November, Linkin Park released From Zero, their eighth studio album and the first with Emily as Frontwoman.

0:45The record's already surpassed 3 billion streams online. On today's episode, Leah Rose talks to Mike Shinoda about why he chose not to retire Linkin Park and instead took the creative risk of reinventing the band nearly 30 years after its formation. Mike also shares his favorite Linkin Park songs of all time and explains how the band managed to stand apart from the bro-centric frat boy culture that defined much of early 2000s new metal. This is Broken Record. Real musicians, real conversations.

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3:17Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. Here's Leah Rose and Mike Shinoda. I was listening back to your last interview on Broken Records. So the last time you were on was 2021 in March, and you were very much in your Twitch era, like, you know, five days a week on there grinding, producing new music with people that you were meeting online. And you seemed like super pumped about it. so how did that transition into lincoln park finding emily and the band starting up again like where do i even start um so i was doing um you know after um 2020 i was doing some uh i was Twitch, live streams here, actually on this setup.

4:19And I made songs with the fans. They would throw ideas out. I'd make tracks out of their ideas. And yeah, I did some fun stuff there. And at a certain point, I was also starting to do sessions with other artists, like writing and producing, and I was making, starting to make my own stuff again very quietly and really not putting any names on it, like just making the most random, like stuff that you'd never even expect me to make. What did it sound like? I mean, well, some of it sounded like Linkin Park. Some of it sounded like me experimenting, like I've done a few different like projects for minor, my own solo stuff.

5:05And there were elements of all those things going on, but I had, I had kept in touch with all the, the, the guys in the band and we, we had gotten together and then like, it kind of just like nothing was there. Like we would, we would get together for a little bit and then, you know, people just wouldn't show up or call back or whatever. And that happened every, every, a couple, maybe like once a year or a couple of times a year. And sometime around, I'm going to guess it was like 2023, I started really talking to Joe and Dave, like that I could tell that they were really ready to do something.

5:47And I was as well. So when you all made the decision to come back together, was it more just to kind of see what happens? Or was it like, all right, we're going to do an album. We're reuniting. We're getting a new singer. We're going to go on tour. Was it like a whole grand plan? Yeah, it was the opposite of that. It was the opposite of that. Because we were like, we really wanted to take the pressure. It's so much pressure to start Linkin Park again. Totally. That's a very big idea. and it was it's like scare it was scary and it was like there too many things could be go wrong and there were too many questions so we really just we really just approached it like following like little glimmers of interest you know like whatever seems seemed like it held our attention and and we wanted to do more of it we just follow those things and even when we had people come in we never said it was lincoln park it was like they'd see it'd be it'd be you know me joe dave in the room but even if it was just me in the room like obviously we would never like i shouldn't i should i i say obviously because it's like if there's just one of if it's just me then the question is less uh of an elephant in the room but if it's three of us it's more of an elephant in the room like our is this a lincoln park session so um yeah when we first started it was like that you know we would just kind of get together with people and mess around and and again like some of this stuff kind of like to somebody else's ear maybe it sounded like it could be a Lincoln Park song but definitely to ours we were kind of exploring different I don't know aesthetic or a different like creative uh path and then yeah and then slowly like we started to um like we had met emily i had met emily like back in like almost like 2018 19 i think it was and um just kept in touch she was going to do another dead sarah record she did that and then um got like just reconnected um and started bringing her in with the other guys in different combinations we have you know get together with different writers or something.

8:02And really it galvanized when it was like just, when Brad came into and it was just like the six of us in the room, then it was really, it felt like, oh, I want to do this every day. Like it's the best. She is so awesome. Yeah, she is. She like, there's something special about that woman. She's incredible. She's incredible to watch. She's an awesome performer. like I feel like you just struck gold and it's so awesome to bring a woman in Lincoln Park is so like I look at your old photos and it's just like dudes it's like dude energy heavy dude energy it's funny because we were in the context of like the the bands and the and the festivals and the shows that we were doing we were the least bro-y bros of the of the lineup like we were on these shows with like it was like odds fest yeah and like people were just like waking up getting drunk like blacking out and then waking up next morning and chugging a pedialyte to like rehydrate and then drink again and we were just sitting there in our bus like isolating ourselves because we didn't there were only like a handful of people on those tours that we were like oh like Like, these are kind of our people.

9:23Yeah. And I have nothing against, like, all those folks from those tours. Like, a lot of really sweet performers, great dudes in bands, though. Like you were saying, like, the energy was very masculine energy. The crews were all bros with tattoos and beer guts. And, like, that wasn't our, even way back in, like, 2002, 2003, that wasn't really our scene. Yeah, that was the, I was looking at the photos for hybrid theory. And I guess it was like the photo that was on the back of the CD, maybe at first. And I was thinking about you because you've always been sort of like the art director for the band, right?

10:07Me and Joe, yeah. Joe and I had met in college. We both studied illustration and he left to go do film. And I stayed and finished my, I got my bachelor's. So very visual. Do you remember like what your thought was for the aesthetic of the band in those early days for like that shoot? Yeah, totally. The first meeting we had with the label about the aesthetic, like what art direction we'd like to kind of go in with hybrid theory. You know, the folks that we already knew, they had said to the art department, oh, these guys, like they, you know, a couple of the guys went to art school. So they take this pretty seriously and they know more about it than your average band.

10:50Like Mike has done, he designed like, you know, single covers and CD covers for a few artists. So it was like little, little hip hop groups like Styles of Beyond and a Canadian rapper named Socrates, a couple of things. I don't remember what else I did, but, you know, enough, enough. I felt like I knew enough to like have have a more detailed conversation about it. And also, I didn't want to be, like, drawing the covers because that wasn't really the aesthetic we were going for. And then we, like, we realized that there's this guy named Frank Maddox who he had done, like, the Deftones stuff, which we thought was so cool.

11:29White Pony looked incredible. So we started meeting with Frank. And one of the things we all bonded on super early was, like, this new thing that was going on called street art is what they were. there was basically like an elevated version of graffiti, but like a lot of illustrators and people with that kind of talent were moving into the graffiti world and you had characters like Banksy showing up. Yeah, and like a Shepard fairy maybe. Yeah, exactly. And Obey stickers were actually on, at the time MTV, like they were showing up in the background of things on MTV. And I don't even know if MTV knew that that was happening, but people like us, we were like, oh my God, Shepard's everywhere.

12:08This Obey thing is so cool. Yeah. And so we were, that was our inspiration. I mean, we really bonded over that, among other things. Very cool. And then how thinking about, I mean, I've seen a lot of people say that From Zero is sort of maybe in ways referencing hybrid theory. And I want to ask you about the name, like From Zero. Is that a reference at all? Obviously, it's maybe starting over. Yeah, so that's one meaning. Is it also Zero, your first band? Yeah. So the people, I feel like usually people who are like, oh, yeah, it sounds like hybrid theory. 99 % of those people don't realize that we were called Zero before we were hybrid theory and that Zero was, that sounded like hybrid theory.

12:55Like that's, hybrid theory was Zero. So when we started the band, we, you know, it was X-E-R-O was the name of the band. And it was like just a very like uncooked, not quite developed version of what it became. You know, we were still figuring out the sound. And especially early, early on, we just didn't have the gear. Like, we didn't have the stuff that we would need to make the things that we wanted to make. The very first deal we ever signed was a publishing deal. And we knew at that time that, like, signing a publishing deal so early was probably financially a terrible idea. But we also didn't take the band so seriously yet.

13:33Like, we were just like, well, I'm just as happy, like, going back to my day job, like, and playing music on the weekends. Like I'm doing this because it's fun and because I like the stuff we're making. So if we sign this publishing deal, we can all buy new gear and actually make the stuff we want to make. And so we bought, you know, we bought a new sampler. We bought a new guitar cabinet, new guitar, new bass, new drums, new. And we for the first time we had Pro Tools on a computer at home. And I was the guy. I was the Pro Tools guy. So I was learning that and learning about how to how to engineer, how to produce a song.

14:06everyone we ever worked with I was just like like picking their brain about you know how do you do this how do you do that and learning on the fly I was gonna say because that's pre-youtube tutorial so it's not like you could just like yeah you had to you had to get the info from somebody who was doing it I mean I wasn't in a position to intern I had bills to pay and we were our band was starting to to have like real fans by the maybe by the dozens at that point I don't think by the hundreds at that point but yeah we were called zero and so when fast forward to like you know 2024 when we were making this album it was funny because the band we were making the band you know at the same time that we were making the album like the band was coming into focus while the music was coming into focus and so we were learning about like different things that our new lineup could do.

15:00There were combinations of different people in the band that when you put us together and they played a certain way, it sounded new and interesting. And so for that, that was one of the reasons why we gravitated towards the name because it did feel like a restart and a return to some of the things that we really loved in the beginning. Were you hesitant at all to bring a woman in since, I don't know. I mean, it's a big change, but it's not a big deal. But for some people, it may be a big deal. How hard did you think about that? I didn't mention it to any of my friends. I didn't want anyone to know that that's what we were considering, really.

15:43And I started to notice every time somebody would talk about a band that had a female singer i started to notice the way they would talk about them and in particular the thing that i noticed more that people won't say in an interview or on twitter or instagram whatever they they what they won't say is that it's that whole thing about when a woman who's in that kind of a position like asserts herself you see it in in corporate culture too she asserts herself she's bitchy all of a sudden like they call her they they they characterize her a certain way and so when i was like when we started like thinking about emily um i was noticing that and and you know she has a very she she like sails back and forth between like very low key and like go with the flow and then right into like very confident, like badass who knows what she's doing.

16:45And she's, and that was, I think that was one of the things that we really enjoyed as we were starting to get to know each other. It's like, oh, she's always that, whatever that ebb and flow is of when she wants to be in the front seat and when she wants in the back seat and when she like has an opinion, but she doesn't want to be forceful it's like very it locks right in with our our energy too it's a lot of people to lock in with like because six is a lot yeah a lot of ways that can go wrong personalities there are bands with three people and they can't get along oh my god twice as many yes what did your wife say or just people close to you when you're like all right we're doing this again it's starting up it was a very slow it came about very slowly and gradually okay many months that's many months so it wasn't like a we're not snap decision kind of folks yeah that's that's to our you know benefit and and our detriment like i think people know that about us so sometimes we take time with things and this was definitely a thing we we wanted to take so much time with yeah and yeah It was just like, you know, getting in the room, getting in the room, talking.

17:58And we'd end up like working on something. Some days we work on stuff and just like forget what we were there for. We'd just be talking and talking and talking and be like, oh, my God, we've been sitting here just like hanging out for four hours. Like we really ought to like work on a song. It's also like coming out of the pandemic and people have been isolated for so long. I remember those early days conversations where you're like, oh, wow. I could be in the same room with somebody. I think that was definitely it, too. But we had such a good, we really enjoyed the process of making this album.

18:36And not every album that we've made is that way. I think notoriously, Hybrid Theory was painful to make. like Minutes to Midnight, our third album, was also pretty painful to make. It was hybrid theory because it was short, fast, and everybody was, like, fighting against us on everything. And Minutes to Midnight was tough because it was very, very slow and long and, like, 18 months and 150 demos and us tearing our hair out trying to, like, reinvent our band. And so since we had those experiences, I think we were able to, like, harness the best outlook. It was like we knew how to do a difficult thing and not be miserable doing it.

19:20Does that make sense? So we did this very, very difficult thing, but we enjoyed every minute. Speaking of difficult things, when I was researching you and just watching interviews with you and just thinking about you in this band and your history and your career, you so could have easily just like rode off into the sunset enjoyed your success but I feel like you're not scared to do difficult things and reinventing the band in a way is is like super super hard but maybe that's when you work best when your back is against the wall and people are doubting you yeah i i think that the thing that one of the things that really drove us is the idea that if we had just like hung it up and said okay that was a good run and and call it quits that is such a like a shitty way to end for the band to end or stop making new music that is like an awful story like no one wants to read that book and instead to be able to say like and then the guys dusted themselves up off and got up again like that to me is that exactly the book i want to read like that's the thing that's the hardest to do and the most intimidating the most challenging the most that could go wrong yes honestly and for ourselves and for our kids, for our fans, to do it and say, yeah, we took huge risks on this.

21:00There's so much about the new music, the new lineup, and everything else that is... I mean, before we even put out... Before anybody knew anything, we were like, okay, here's a laundry list of the things that people are not going to like. Oh, what was that? All of the things that they ended up... Not to focus on the negative. All of the things that they ended up not liking. Like all the things that anybody on the internet argued about and continues to argue about, about our band. If anyone thinks that we didn't think of those things, they're crazy. Like I, we live and breathe this band. We thought of all those things.

21:35We, okay, that's, that's, is that okay? That's going to be okay, right? Like they're going to, they're going to like the open mouth breather, neck beard, misogynist metal fan who loved our band, who loved our first two records and hasn't listened to the band since, but like thinks he's a Linkin Park fan. He's going to hate this band and like be vocal about it. So that's okay. Like great. Cause that person's going to get replaced by ostensibly like a 15 year old girl. Yeah. Who's like, I've never been into like loud music before. And I want to learn to play guitar now. Totally. And that is, I mean, I love that.

22:17I love that too. We'll be back with more from Mike Shinoda and Leah Rose after the break.

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25:50Our listeners get 10 % off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash broken. That's Better H-E-L-P dot com slash broken. How did you think about the art direction of the, um, of From Zero? Do you think about, like, are you granular down to, like, how everybody is dressing, or can everybody just wear whatever they want? The former. I'm granular. I'm granular down to font kerning. Uh-huh. I get down into like, I don't like the shade of color that's underneath this body of text and we need to, can you change it? Like even the photos and stuff. I was like the thing we were, the colors that we were wearing got like shifted a bit in the photo.

26:42and like i want to pull out the change up the colors to pull out more of those that palette i i love it but it's also like i do have to like at a certain point cut myself off that's just my personality i have to like intentionally stop yeah getting into the weeds on things um i love our the art that we make for our albums and for our merchandise and stuff. Joe and Frank and I, like, get, you know, we get so excited to do it and get in the weeds on how to make it. Like, our DMs, our texts, our Pinterest boards or whatever are chaotic, but, like, very full of energy and full of life. so when you're bringing in a new lead singer you also since you're so visual you also have to like their look yeah so that makes it even harder you could find someone who sounds incredible who's incredible songwriter right but they have to have a look like she has such an awesome look yeah fortunate it was very fortunate that we didn't have to worry about that with her yeah like my favorite thing actually my favorite thing about about having about that part of the our our band dynamic now is that when we're making a female item for like our our web store then i can just like shoot the things to em and be like hey do you like this would you wear this or like we sent her a bunch of blanks of t-shirts and fits and whatever and she's like yeah these these four are the good ones and the other ones that I would never wear.

28:26And so it's, it's, we get to have a, her input on those things. Yeah. I, it's funny because we didn't acknowledge that when we were, I was talking about like the, the attention to detail, different people in the band have that for different things. Emily and Colin are very easygoing and they haven't really, I think they're, they, they have this tendency to like stay, to be easygoing, but we keep pulling them in and be like, no, like we want your opinion on these things. And it's, it's happening more, more often now, which is really great. But the, you know, me, Joe, Dave and Brad have no problem like getting very granular.

29:06Yeah. Well, that makes sense because they're the new, they're the newbies. Yeah. Yeah. Did it seem, was it reminiscent at all of when you were integrating Emily into the band, did it make you remember integrating Chester into the band at all? Was there any, like, overlap? Like, where maybe the older guys are kind of like... I think there were a few times when I remembered, like, oh, yeah, we had a similar conversation. The conversation we had with Emily today was similar to the conversation, a conversation we had with Chester back in the day. Yeah, there were times when it kind of, like, occurred to me, but nothing that really stands out.

29:46It's just like, you know, I feel like, of course, that's going to happen, right? because it's the same you're doing the same activity right but we also got to learn from that like we're when we were like writing from zero we were also having to have like like almost like logistical conversations about like okay well we're so focused on the studio and writing these songs that we've got like questions about the band that are like more touring related questions or like business related questions like what do we do how do we handle this and we needed to like talk more regularly and get on zooms and do that part of the thing and like with any group of like brothers like you get into some bad habits in terms of like communication style or like ways that you think about it like dave for example he was funny because he was just like i he told us i have this like mental block i hear band meeting and i immediately go right like he's like and it's not it's not your fault it's not that i don't like hanging out and talking about our band it's that the one that we do a quote-unquote meeting like you're gonna go in and you're gonna talk about good stuff and bad stuff and hard things and whatever and it's stressful and he's like i've just my brain is just like put that in this like negative bucket and i need to like figure it out so we actually went in and we we all had versions of that so we all like had to like be do some like reflection and look at like okay what what would make it more enjoyable yeah to like get on the you know get on a zoom get on call it a band chat not a band meeting maybe you know do you guys ever have you done any sort of like therapy together or gone on a retreat or anything like that i've heard about obviously metallica did the doc about it But like I've heard Pearl Jam goes on retreats together to work on communication.

31:46I don't know if we have a problem with authority or something, but that type of thing, we've brushed up against it and it hasn't worked well for us because we just feel like the person, if there's a mediator, that they don't know us at all. Yeah. Because they don't, right? So like we know everybody's buttons. We know where all the like bodies are buried and you just, so you can like totally subtly antagonize each other if you want to. And it's, so for us, it's been, it was much more about like, well, the problem isn't that we're, we know each other so well. The problem is that you got to care a lot and be grateful that this thing is very special And that if you do something to antagonize your bandmate, like you would antagonize your sibling, you're hurting yourself.

32:48I love the band. If I'm doing something that's making him or her uncomfortable or upset, then I'm hurting myself. So I think that we thankfully have a very emotionally intelligent band who can self-regulate to some degree. Yeah, it seems like that. And as someone who's been on the receiving end of hate for, you know, decades, not all hate, but there's been, you know, people have critical opinions. Do you find that you're less likely to do the same for other bands? Or like, do you get involved in conversations online for artists that you love? And do you ever have critical opinions? i mean i don't like to get down in the dirt with people on stuff online online arguments are like probably the biggest waste of time i can think of so that's really not my not my cup of tea everybody who who who reaches a lot of listeners reaches also a lot of haters like you can't have one and not the other.