Paul Simon

29:54He was hearing that or it could have been any number of things because there are so many subtle sounds used throughout this piece, so many. But the way I was hearing and the way he heard it was as if the sound stretched all the way to a horizon, and I could just about make out what the sound was in the farthest place away. So that's a very deep, not deep intellectually or spiritually, but it has a deep visual perspective to sound. It goes way back, and it makes the guitar, this simple acoustic guitar, sound bigger. Anyway, that's what I'm trying to do. But wait, Paul, that was a review that you liked.

30:43I mean, effectively, he was a reviewer, and you liked what he had to say conceptually. Yeah, because what he said was exactly what I hoped for. His interest was really piqued, but he wasn't sure whether his interest was meant to be piqued or whether he imagined it. well that's great because now you're really interested did I hear that I loved his question did I hear that well of course the answer is yes you did and when you become aware that there are there's a an entire conversation going on way in the background that's related to what's going on in the foreground with guitar and voice, then for me as the composer, it's much more interesting.

31:35But that doesn't mean that when people listen to this record that they have to be aware of that. Most people, they're not supposed to be aware of it. It's just supposed to be pleasurable. You're just supposed to say, I really like that. Why? I don't know. I just liked it. That's fine. That's how most people hear musicians say, what was that sound? Because they're trained to do that. Well, in this case, I was going to talk about the good problem, is that the lyrics are so good that you get distracted. I listened to it several times, but one of the times I listened to it the way I remember listening to records in the day, when you'd have the lyrics from the album cover and you would read the lyrics as you were hearing them.

32:26And you do that in one of your first or your second listens just so you can kind of locate everything. Right. And I was doing that. I was doing this yesterday. And I was like, you know, it was incredibly important because it made me focus for a moment on the poetry. And I was going to talk to you about this because I think the writing here is some of the best you've ever done. It's exquisite. say it. Now I'm responding as a writer, because I'm a writer. There's a little bit, for example, in my professional opinion, the line about the cows is as funny a line as you've written. I had that line for a long time.

33:05I heard two cows in a conversation, one called the other one a name, in my professional opinion. All cows in the country must bear the blame. I mean, come on, it's like, that's in the pantheon of great Great Paul Simonites. Well, I don't know what that pantheon is. But anyway, to me, the funny thing was the two cows in conversation. That's true. And that came from out in Montauk, where I live. On the road that I drive up to our place, there's a big field, and there are cows there. And two cows were leaning over the fence. And so I thought of that line and wrote it down. Yeah. It wasn't for anything.

33:45It was just a line that I saved and put in there. My professional opinion, you know, I should say this really. I think the truth is that for people who enjoy this record, the enjoyment is not enhanced by me explaining any of this stuff. I don't think it helps. It's better left unexplained. If it's your job to understand how records are put together, either you're a writer or you're a musician or you're a producer or an engineer, well, then you're really interested in it. But as a person who's not that and just an average listener, they don't need to know that I put this bill over here for this reason or that.

34:38It's either an idea that works and people like it, and in this case they seem to really like it or it doesn't work and or that you know and people don't they don't hear it and they're not they're not interested which is also a fact that that's going on too there's a lot of people who never heard this never will and don't care yeah well I want to go back to professional opinion for a moment just because that was the one I was kind of fixating on. Can you talk a little bit about how the interaction between the music and the words in that case? This is about the structure of the entire piece. The first two songs, The Lord and Love is Like a Braid, they have a certain feel to them, more like ballads, and a certain mood.

35:33I don't know what you want to call it. It doesn't matter what you want to call it. It has a certain mood. So this again goes to me as an editor of the piece that I'm working on. I think the listener who has heard this first two songs, and it's probably about eight or nine minutes worth, they have inferred a certain mood about this piece, but I don't want that to happen. So I purposefully make the third piece to break that inference. So instead of having pieces that were... Which was the Lord or...

36:27That kind of playing. I'm playing something that's like a kind of an old bluesy Jimmy Reed kind of.

37:06That's a very different mood. Don't stop, don't stop. I'm enjoying myself. I can't remember. You know, the reason I'm not playing more is that, well, I haven't played it in a long time, so I'm sort of going by muscle memory. Yeah. The reason when you said that this isn't really just an album about you confronting your mortality. And the reason I agree with that is that that song, you're having so much fun. It's like there's everything. There's mischief in it. There's a little bit of street sass. I can see you as a kid on the streets of Queens like you're both commenting on and kind of mocking a little bit of the popular culture I don't know, it's just like it's not a song about a guy at the end of his life confronting his mortality it's about a song about a guy in the middle of everything like, you know Right There's so much fun in that It has fun and it has jokes Yeah, it has Good morning Mr.

38:10Indignation So the mood of the first two pieces is changed, or hopefully is changed, by the rhythm of this piece and the lyrics, which have jokes or humor in them, as well as their commentary. And by the end of the piece, the piece is summed up with all that really matters is the one who became us, anointed, and gamed us with his opinion. So that brings me back to the theme of where the entire piece is headed. And now I'm set for really the beginning of the album, Your Forgiveness. From here on, it's going to be sort of intense and growing. So the first two songs introduce you to the mood and the theme.

39:08The third song says, don't get too settled into that and think that this is not what people are thinking. Yeah. This is what I'm thinking as someone who's observing attention span of a listening audience or imagining their attention span and trying to make it as enjoyable as possible by not allowing you to get bored too early. Yeah. But it's very, I mean, remembering back to our long conversations two years ago, it's typical of your kind of writing and communication style that you'd like to establish something and then say, wait a minute, wait a minute. And then the humor often comes in you amending the impression that you've given.

39:53That's right. Yeah. There's a line, in one of the reviews, someone quoted that lovely line where you said, I'm a man who likes to travel, but maybe not since I live, what's the line? Oh, that's from Darling Lorraine. That's a perfect example of that. I think that might have been the first time that I may have used that kind of joke. The line is, all my life I've been a wanderer, which I wrote because I just make up things as I'm searching for a melody. I wrote that line and thought, what bullshit, you know? So what it ends up in the song is, all my life I've been a wanderer. Not really. I mostly lived in my parents' home.

40:33Anyway, Lorraine and I got married. And I love that the subject changes completely, 180 degrees. He says a line, it's just a lie. Then he says, ah, you know, that's bullshit. Really, anyway, back to Lorraine and I, we got married, and that's the way conversations are. We don't just talk on one straight subject. We do this, and then there's an interruption, and we go over here. We say, oh, that reminds me, I have to pick up my clothes at the cleaners, or a funny thing that somebody said. It's just the mind changes all the time, and songs can be the same. And when they are, it doesn't upset the listener, I don't think.

41:17We have to pause for another quick break, and then we'll come back with more from Malcolm Gladwell and Paul Simon. This episode of Broken Record is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Everybody loves to travel, right? We can get away as a once-in-a-lifetime vacation, all of it. And no matter where you're going, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. Travel is its own reward, you know. You're out there having experiences you can't have any other way, and with your Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you're also being rewarded. You earn eight times points on all purchases through Chase Travel.

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42:30Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Terms apply. I firmly believe when it comes to the holidays, you fall into one of two camps. Someone who loves holiday music or someone who won't admit they love holiday music. There's something about a voice you love singing that familiar opening phrase, maybe it's Donny Hathaway, maybe it's Mariah Carey, that just flips a switch and you're instantly back into that warm and cozy headspace only the holidays can bring. For me, that feeling pairs perfectly with a cup of Starbucks caramel brulee latte. That's their signature espresso with steamed milk and a rich caramel brulee flavor topped with whipped cream and a crunchy caramel brulee topping.

43:10It's like the sound of the season, but in drink form. And that's really what this season's about. Little moments of pairing, little moments of connection. Sharing a song, sharing a story, sharing a caramel brulee latte. Because this season and every season, together, is the best place to be. Come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant so you can feel confident you're finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else.

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44:20That's why LinkedIn Jobs AI Assistant suggests 25 great fit candidates daily so you can invite them to apply and keep things moving. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash broken, then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs' new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's linkedin.com slash broken to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. We're back with the rest of Malcolm Gladwell's conversation with Paul Simon. my favorite component i don't i guess we don't want to call them songs i don't know what what we call them but sacred harp is the one that i was really drawn to that's mine too i wanted to talk about that one because it has on just on the writing front there's that one little bit about when the the kids get in the car and they say they would have mowed us down i haven't been down here and then we talk about the boy about he doesn't talk much anymore just to the voices inside his head the boy just gazed down at the floor and nodded once or twice at what she said that little section that begins with her voice was a blend of regional perfumes we have no destination it's another one of those things where i was like that's this is as beautiful and perfect a section, lyrical section, as you've ever done.

45:43Thank you. It's an entire scene in a brilliant, moving, powerful scene in four lines. Well, yeah, I could use you as my reviewer. You can review all my stuff. I'm happy to. But I, no, I don't know where that came from, her voice blend of regional perfume. but it sang perfectly. And it also had a description of... When you say it sang perfectly, what do you mean? It had the right syllables and the right sound to go with the melody that I wanted to sing. I didn't have to push or fit it in. It was a natural flow of words, but they also were an interesting description. that I think would be easily understood.

46:41You could imagine what that would be. And it also implies one thing about her, it's very womanly. And the other is that it feels Southern too, to me. It's like regional perfumes. I don't think of it as New York perfume. I think of it as Southern. Yeah. That country Maine is not a perfumed accent. Yeah, it feels like it's Texas, which is where it was set in my mind. You wrote that lyric here. Yeah. And that's why Edie's voice, which it serves the song in several ways that are powerful, I think. First of all, you're not expecting to hear another voice come in on the record that has only been me and the guitarist so far.

47:41So it's a surprise. And Edie is from Texas, and she sings great no matter what she does. She's one of those people that has perfect pitch and sings in tune all the time. It's very enviable. but she's also naturally inhabits that character so to me she sounds like like that character and it's really the two of us in a pickup truck which she drives anyway so she was the right person to tell that story and she her accent is like that it is that sort of soft southern accent Mm-hmm. So it's a little play. It's a little play that's going on there with different characters. And sometimes when she's introduced with her lines, hurry, get yourself inside the truck to the hitchhikers when it's raining, the both of us sing that line.

48:44I'm singing harmony to her. But I fade out my voice somewhere in the middle of the first sentence. So it's sort of my voice introduces this character, but it doesn't stay for the conventional length of time, which is one line or something. It's not a usual duet form. It's a sound that comes and then disappears. That's like a lot of sounds on this record. They appear and they disappear. And then the listener says, what was that? or hopefully they say that. It's meant to be the way we observe and the way we think. We don't think in four bars or eight bars. We think with no bar lines. Things come in and they go away.

49:39And that's what I was trying to do with the writing. And that song is a good example of me trying to do that. You never considered anyone but Edie for that? Oh, no, I never thought anybody else would do that. Were you thinking of her even as you first wrote the lyrics? I think once I put the other character in there, I knew it would be Edie. And Edie and I, we haven't done it on record, but we've sung a lot in harmony. And like many years ago, Edie wrote these songs when our kids were little, and she used to take them to the park in the stroller. She would make up songs. while they were in the stroller and on the swing.

50:22They were great songs, really simple, great, that kids could sing along with, but beautiful. Did Shiva record those? We recorded them. Oh, you did? Yeah. So I know that we sing well together. We have a very good blend. So Edie was always that character. And then in Weight, she also fits that character. It's another character, that voice that comes in. And it was like sort of angelic. And it also fits Edie's voice because it's a voice that can go in a lot of places. Her natural inclination is to be a little bit bluesy. You know, her notes sort of fall off. Yeah. But in this case, she's just singing in this voice that's, I don't know who that voice is.

51:10You know, I mean, it would be, the cliche would be, it would be like an angel's voice. I wouldn't say that, but that's the cliche. Can you play any bit of the music for Sacred Heart? Yeah, I can play a little bit of the guitar. I forgot some of it, but, you know, again.

51:35This is of no interest to all but a tiny, fortunate people. But this interval is an unusual interval in songs. For those who are musicians, it's a flat fifth or sharp fourth. That interval. You don't hear it often. The most famous example of it is... Do-do-do-do Maria Do-do-do That-that That's... Otherwise, you don't hear that too often. It's not an easy interval to sing naturally. A fifth is natural. Are you going to Scarborough Fair? You hear fifths. All the time. Why did you use the unusual one here? Because it's unusual and interesting. It's interesting to the ear. But. piano plays softly

53:19Were signaling us as we were cruising by

53:27When I said that was my favorite song, you said that's my favorite song too. Why is it your favorite song? Well, I love the duet. I really like the story. I like the way the voices come in and the way they dance with each other. I like that little interval. I liked her voice, a blend of regional perfumes. I liked the way the mist turns from what she says in the beginning. The rain will turn to mist with any luck, and you can find a place to stay. That's what she says to the hitchhikers when they get in, because she's like, we, the drivers of the pickup, feel bad that it's pouring rain, but we're really not in the mood for hitchhikers.

54:14so it's like come on in but we're not going far so we're telling you now it's not a long ride you know you it's the rain will stop you can go and find a place to stay at the end of the story it's uh the ringing strings the thought that god turns music into bliss we left the pickup in the driveway, the moon appeared as amber in the mist, so that the mist becomes another meaning from the first time it's used. Things like that, as a songwriter, are satisfying because it came together. I'm always trying to make it come together, but it doesn't happen all the time. The emotional range in that song is what you're alluding to now, but that's what drew me.

55:04We have the generosity mixed with reluctance, which is one kind of emotion. We meet these two people and they're broken, these kids. They're like on the run. And then we end on this kind of, with the beauty of that image of the mist. I mean, it's like this song in, what do I say? The efficient, I mean, efficiency is a terrible word to use here. But the idea that in that compact segment, you can range through this variety of emotions and make us feel all of those things as you're going. Well, you say they're broken. They appear to be broken. You know, my boy and me, we're refugees of sorts from my hometown.

55:51They don't like different there. They would have mowed us down. and mowed us down like weeds. So they seem like they're broken. He doesn't talk much anymore just to the voices in his head. But really, they're seekers of spiritual bliss, you know, the sacred harp that David played to make his songs of praise. We long to hear those strings that set his heart ablaze. They're the enlightened pair, really. It's an interesting story, I thought. Oh, it's gorgeous. It's odd. It's the one, I mean, it's someone who was raised in the church. It's the song that's the most kind of explicitly biblical. Really, you could turn that into a hymn.

56:40It could be sung in a church. I'd get a lot of pleasure if somebody, if it did find its way into that environment. I'd like that. That would give you a lot of pleasure because they would recognize... Because I like when songs go to different places. I like it when different communities of people hear something that they identify with in a song. It means that you can read different things into it. And it's something that, as a songwriter, you would hope to achieve that. That something would appeal to many, many people. on a personal level, and that personal interpretation would be quite different along the spectrum of the listeners.

57:33That would be a successful song. And it happens naturally with every song because, as I've said, as we said when we had our long conversation, one of the things was that I believe that the listener completes the song they hear it they take in the meaning on a personal level may not be the meaning that I intended they even change the words in their mind when people sometimes repeat the words that there are their favorite words to me of the songs it's not what I wrote but it's what they heard That's what it is. That's what the listener completes the song. So if this song was sung in an environment that was a church environment, it would have a certain kind of meaning.

58:22If it was sung in a different place, it would have a different meaning. That's good. It's good because it does have a choice of meanings. Was the production of this record different than previous records? Were you more, was it more exhaustive? No, no, no. It was the same. It's the same. This was just a different animal, that's all. It's not exhausting anyway. It's not exhausting. I don't get bored with doing things over and over and over again. It's not even a thought that enters my mind, this is boring. It's, you're searching for something that you can hear, but you haven't attained yet. So you really get interested in the pursuit.

59:14It's not boring. It's not exhausting at all. It's, I mean, it's really, when you're hot on the trail, it's really exhilarating. and it's part of what makes me like to do this and and why i've spent my whole life doing it i really enjoy it and when i i get it right for myself then i get a little blast of dopamine in my brain and i'm addicted i want it again thanks to paul simon for taking us behind the making of his newest album, Seven Psalms. Be sure to check out the audio original Miracle and Wonder Conversations with Paul Simon to hear more about Paul's brilliant career. You can find it at audible.com or at pushkin.fm.

1:00:04And again, we're releasing a new version of that book along with a brand new chapter about Seven Psalms this fall. You can hear Paul's new album, Seven Psalms, along with all of our favorite songs of his on a playlist at brokenrecordpodcast.com. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast where you can find all of our new episodes. Broken Record is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Tallade, Nisha Vencutt, Jordan McMillan, and Eric Sandler. Our editor is Sophie Crane. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.

1:00:48Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription service that offers bonus content and uninterrupted ad-free listening for only$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, remember to share, rate, and reveal us on your podcast app. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richman. This episode of Broken Record is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Traveling is one of life's greatest joys. Honestly, can anything be more exhilarating? Well, actually, yeah, with Chase Sapphire Reserve. It's your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations.

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