RAYE

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2:11Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval, terms apply. Ray's an English pop singer-songwriter whose debut album, My 21st Century Blues, snagged Album of the Year at this year's Brit Awards. But that was just one of six total awards she took home that evening. For Ray, who at 26 has already survived a tumultuous ride through the music industry, the evening was a complete coup. Ray started writing songs as a young girl growing up in South London. By 17, she signed her first record deal with Polydor Records and worked for the next seven years as a songwriter.

2:49While writing songs for artists like Beyonce, John Legend, and Rihanna, Ray was also writing her own songs, which her label refused to release. She was eventually able to leave Polydor and in 2023, independently released her debut album to heaps of critical acclaim, kicked off by her viral TikTok-powered hit, Escapism. Ray's vulnerability on her album about her own struggles with self-esteem, substance abuse, and sexual assault have proven to resonate deeply with fans everywhere. On today's episode, I talk to Ray about her wild journey through the music business. She explains how a quote from Nina Simone gave her the courage to take control of her career, how a ski trip in Utah helped inspire some of her best songwriting ever, and about her sprawling new single, Out Everywhere Now, called Genesis.

3:40This is Broken Record. Line of notes for the digital age. I'm Justin Richman. Here's my conversation with Ray. Man, your Coachella set seemed like it was really well-received. I got to see a bit of it. It was awesome. It was definitely really a special one for us. I think it's the first time I've witnessed a crowd like that for me in a festival in the States, you know. So that was like a really special change. It's something I'm not used to out here. What felt different about that crowd? Well, I think in America, like it's always been intimidating. I think as a British artist, you know, the idea of like performing in America anyway is just intimidating.

4:24And, you know, I've done quite a few, not loads, but a few other festivals out here where you're like, right, we need to win the crowd. We need to grow the crowd. Yeah. So Coachella just, I wasn't expecting it to be that full and people were really engaged and it was really special. This wasn't a case of you getting your music out to a bunch of people at a festival. It was like those were, people are like now converted, like people are Rae fans. do you know i i do have a habit during during shows of really over analyzing everyone's faces i feel like at the beginning of the set i was like right i need to i was like right i need to win i need people to get to know me you know kind of thing and i always try and leave a a bit of space we ended up taking a song or two out so that i'd have more time to chat i like to have a little chat some people's that she needs to stop talking but I just like to talk.

5:18And I think also it's a case of maybe some people have heard the songs or maybe the song that started to cross over here. And they're like, let's go and see what it's about. And I think my mission is always during a performance, I just want people to walk away and be like, I would see that again. Or that was good. You know, that's my goal. Yeah. And you can see people being one, you know, people going from stern face or just like watching with no expression to being like, oh, okay. Or do you know what I mean? and you're like, wave, and they're doing it. And you're like, okay, cool. Like, you know.

5:48Have you discovered little things that you can do over the course of a set to maybe like reliably win people over? I think honesty has always been something that's kind of important. I've never really, I don't really plan what I say. I kind of keep the music, you know, we know what we're doing within the songs, but even some of the endings of the songs, we leave space. And I just kind of like it to be as open as possible. And I think sometimes when you're just playing songs and not talking, people can't really get to know you. They're just getting to know the music. So I think that's an important thing as well.

6:23I like to try and give a little backstory behind whatever this song is about or this moment. So you don't script your stage banter at all? No. So sometimes I'll be like, oh, my God, why did I just say that out loud? You halfway through talking, you'd be like, what am I saying now? What's going on? There is a lot of that. Where am I going with this? I think I even did that. I was like, I don't know why I just told you that. Let's move on. That's amazing. The way the album came about was kind of circuitous. It wasn't a situation where you were at a label. Basically, there was a lot of roadblocks.

7:00If you want to just, I guess, walk us through some of those. Yeah, it's just not necessarily been a simple 10 years to get to this moment. You know, I was about 17 when I signed my deal and I was with a record label for seven years. And I think. Polydor. Yeah. Can we name them? No, I mean. I mean, I think it's on the record. And, you know, I think being a British artist, it's a very different world out there. I think it's very dance orientated. There are formulas typically that are safer. formulas that you practice as a songwriter you know i started in this game as a songwriter from the age of 14 is when i really took it seriously and i was doing sessions after school and stuff and you kind of learn really quickly okay there's a formula to this you know accessibility repetition symmetry you know the whole maths behind kind of the songwriting thing and and um how did that change your songwriting as a young like when you're 14 i imagine you're coming to a pretty pure like just probably just wanted to express and create.

8:09Yeah. And then you're realizing there's like a formula. Did that change your songwriting? Opposed to like change, I think it's just almost a world of just gathering skills. You know, when I started writing songs, it was very much feeling and freestyling and what felt right and being like, oh, I did a lot of songwriting in Sweden. There's some incredible pop songwriters out there. And I used to fly out for a couple of weeks at a time and write with all the producers and writers, anyone that would let me in a session. And from that, you're like, oh, wow. You know, it's not just whatever melody feels nice.

8:41It's like, okay, we have a melody here. The end of the melody is a little bit too complicated. This word doesn't roll off the tongue as nice, you know, and chipping away and sculpting something. You know, they're all skills that I'm really glad I acquired. And I think for different artists and different sounds and different genres, you kind of need more of one skill than another and stuff like that. But within that space, you know, dance music is huge at symmetry and maths and repetition and a lyric that everyone can relate to and easily digestible and stuff like that. So I kind of, from a younger age, realized I had a knack at being persistent and chipping away at something until the artist or the person I was writing with was happy.

9:23And you could take whatever criticism that would come with a version one. A hundred percent. And when writing for someone else, it's not about, you know my opinion to a degree but you know I'm a people pleaser as well so I'll be like I'm gonna make this so I'm gonna do it so they love it you know it's all a performance as well in another way it's kind of funny but yeah I think when that started to cross over and bleed into what my label at the time wanted from me and the goal was selling opposed to the art itself. Did you know that going in or was that kind of a were you blindsided a bit by that?

9:56Oh no, of course not. Yeah, nobody does. Yeah, it's a real thing, you know. That moment before you put pen on paper, everyone is so nice. They take you for dinners. They sell you a whole lot of lovely dreams and promises. Like some of the things, I was like 16 years old when I started doing the rounds and some of the things I heard, oh my God, I'm not even going to repeat it on here because, but it's wild. What did you hear? Well, it's something like, you know, this, we have this artist, said artist, I won't even name the name, but they've heard your music. They've agreed to endorse you. If you sign with us, you're going to have this, you're going to have that.

10:38This isn't even, this is just, people just talk. And artists in this stage know people will say anything to get you to put your name on that piece of paper. When you're 16 years old from South London and you're like in America doing meetings with these big, huge people, it can absolutely just muddle your brain up and false hope and a lot of lies, a lot of air. So it's real. Yeah. I was like, rah, this place is dark. How quickly after you put pen to paper did you realize, uh-oh, I just got bamboozled? um maybe i'd like to say a year in maybe also the guy who had signed me had then left so the dynamics changed pretty quickly after that that's a pretty common story too i feel like i hear yeah it is your support structure leaves and then you're kind of left there's actually a contractual clause called a key man clause which artists should know about and i didn't at the time but it means you know you get that clause put into your contract means if the person who signs you leaves that you have the right to terminate or move with them it's called a key man clause and it's just something i wish i knew about when i was 17.

11:58to what extent were you happy with the early phases and stages of your career like those first from like 16 17 to you know a couple of years ago only a few years ago well I think it was a tricky one because it wasn't about my goals it was about you know needing to impress these people who basically have my career in in their hands you know they get to decide whether they're going to promote something or they're not whether they're gonna pause my timeline or help me move things along so you you have to play ball you know and you learn that pretty quick yeah so I did my best to do that the goal always has been since the day that I signed to now in my career to be an albums artist I wanted to release bodies of work and I was really excited to be able to earn the right to decide what music I wanted to share and it was kind of always presented that you know when you have a song that's big enough and you've earned an audience that's big enough and wants an album from you that you can do that.

13:09So, yeah. When did your debut album start coming together? When did you record that? I would say maybe about four or five years ago, some of the earliest songs started coming together. What were the first few? Oscar Winning Tears was there for a long time. Hard Out Here But The Instrumental was made years ago, but then I wrote a whole other song on top of it. okay worth it was an older one yeah a couple of songs had just been around for a while five stars was an old one yeah and i had the title about four years ago it's funny because i was going through some of my notebooks at home and i found this notebook it was dated like um 2018 or something it said my 21st century blues wow so the the title and the ideas were forming for a while yeah Do you remember why that title came to you?

14:02Why that phrase came to you? I don't know completely. What I do know is when I was a kid, I was about 14 years old, and my dad and my uncle, we went on a road trip. Basically, we drove through America. We started in LA and we went all the way through to, I think it was Atlanta or we ended somewhere. Wow. And we drove all through Nashville. We drove through New Orleans and Louisiana. We did a whole trip and at that time everywhere we'd drive we'd put on the local radios you know in the UK you know I'd listen to a lot of gospel and some of the the great amazing singers but there was so much music and genres I'd never been exposed to and I think I had a life-changing experience when I was in New Orleans and it was at a place called the Preservation Jazz Hall and it was like a room like 150 people coming to this room and there's just this band and I remember being sat cross-legged on the floor I was sat right underneath this guy's trombone I had like spit flying in my face I'm literally sat there like wide-eyed just like what is this I'd never experienced anything like it and it was just a fusion of kind of jazz and the blues and I remember being like whatever this is I want a part of that and since then I kind of my tastes changed and I just wanted to know more and understand more about this feeling, this kind of music.

15:23And yeah, so although we barely scratch over any kind of blues textures in this album, what I fell in love with was the songwriting and how, you know, we go to these bars and you've got people playing this...

15:40I'd be like... When I was a little boy... I went to school one day... And then I sat on the chair. I heard my teacher say, do you know what I mean? And there's these stories and each one was different. It was the same riff and just all these stories. And I was like, wow. So this is their blues. And I was like, this is deep. And they're deep stories, moving stories, very honest and transparent and clear and beautiful. And I fell in love. I'd always had this idea of I wanted to make whatever my version of the blues is, even though it's not necessarily that genre. it's that candidness. Well, and there's a bravado on a lot of your, you know, I don't know if it's like the whole album because there's some very vulnerable bits, but there is an attitude, a backbone to this album for sure that runs through it.

16:31I love that. And I love the book ends. It's like, as you put it on, it's like you're being transported to like a smoky jazz club. Come on. You know what I mean? And by the time it ends, you're right back there and you're almost ready to play it right over again. I love that. And it's amazing to hear that that stuck with you and that that made it that far from a childhood road trip across the 10 through from L.A. to New Orleans and up, that that stayed with you all these years. It really did. After a quick break, we'll be back with more of my conversation with Ray. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

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20:29To learn more, visit BoschHomeUS.com. We're back with more from Ray. You referenced wanting to be an album artist. What were some of the albums that you grew up on that were like the bedrocks for you? like the ones that were like the perfect records for you. My goodness. The first two albums that played such an important part in my childhood was Alicia Keys, The Diary of Alicia Keys. That was a big one for me. Great album. Wow. That was the first hard copy album I ever bought. And then Who Is Jill Scott? Jill Scott. Nice. That blew my mind. And I think also like being in the UK and just, again, the stuff we was exposed to.

21:12And then my uncle, shout out Uncle Jose, put me on to this album he started with a long walk and I was listening to this song like she's just talking with melodies you know you're used to hearing these perfect rhyming couplets and everything being whatever but she's just like speaking to you like a conversation and it was so casual the way she would sing that entire album it just blew my mind watching me you know she's like she's talking about cctv and and people watching her like as she's just gone to the shop to buy some double or triple a batteries she's like checking to see where i go who i be how where with who i make my money what is this excuse me miss may i have your telephone number and your social security she's like who me it's just like literally telling i was like what is happening it completely blew my mind and i fell in love so those are like two really important albums in my childhood yeah i wanted to ask you about your relationship with hip-hop because it feels like there's a certain cadence that you can get into sometimes that that would also explain it a lot too like that kind of being able to where it's like are you talking are you singing kind of doing both so far jill's a queen at that and then sometimes you just like she'll be doing that and then just take off whoa okay i forgot who i was listening to right and it's also so free you You know, with her, I loved her style of, you feel like anything can happen.

22:41Do you know what I mean? It doesn't feel too perfect. It just feels so authentic. And I've always loved that about her, the way she sings and performs as well. Yeah. Yeah. Were you listening to a lot of hip hop too, growing up? Yeah, a fair amount. I mean, I did get to that age where like Party Next Door was my everything. That's not really hip hop. But, you know, Drake, The Weeknd, Party Next Door. You know that era we all had where we're all like, oh my God. going up on a tuesday yeah yeah the weekend's first album was was a big one the trilogy yeah but in terms of like hip-hop i don't know we're kind of exposed to some different stuff i was exposed to a lot growing up and like different family members as well did you see your uncle jose yeah he's actually lives in america okay so my mom and my uncle were both raised in Ghana when they're about 22 23 mum moved to the UK and Uncle Jose moved to America and he's always been so supportive as well like he bought me my first laptop my MacBook where I used to start making sessions on GarageBand and stuff like that when I was about 13 no for my 13th birthday yeah and so I started making a lot of demos on there and it really helped spark my passion for production, vocal production and just making music in general.

23:59It's so funny because even though none of us before me and my sisters had ever practiced music, it was always the desire for it and the passion for it was always in the blood, I'd say. Like my dad's dad, he used to write songs. He used to want to be a songwriter professionally in a little town in England, north of England, Yorkshire. He used to write songs on, record them onto tape and score it out and write the lyrics and he'd send a box of tapes and the sheet music to record labels in London hoping that you know someone might hear his songs and and like it and I can't even be too candid but he did have a song stolen from him that turned out to be really successful but you know as a lot of songwriters it happened for back in the day he didn't get credited and no one believed him and he had no way legally to prove it because he didn't have the money to do that.

24:52And then he gave up on his dream then and there. So it's so funny that I was a kid and I didn't even know the story. And I'm like, I just want to write music. So it's funny. You didn't know it at that time? No, I was like seven, eight, nine when I was like making silly, weird poems and copying the melodies I'd hear in the TV kids shows I was watching. And I remember one time I was watching this like TV show and I liked the melody. It was like this kind of jazzy. And I was about eight and I pretended that I wrote it, but I just changed all the words. And then I went to dad, my dad, and I was like, listen to this song I wrote.

25:33Do you know what I mean? And he was blown away, but I didn't tell him I'd stolen the song and just changed the lyrics to some terrible lyrics about snow falling and a Christmas song. It was so bad. I like how that still sticks with you. That's gnawing at you so much. Like I'm a fraud. plagiarism but then i realized that's what songwriters some songwriters do that or it's sampling essentially yeah it's a way to get started you know like copy a bit and make it your own so you can figure out how to like do a whole class and you know but yeah it's always been in the blood my family we love music you know i grew up in church as well my dad and mom used to sing mom used to sing in the choir dad used to lead worship so i grew up watching and listening to music being sung every Sunday.

26:18And like in a church where you grew up, what was leading worship like? What did that entail? It was like, I don't know, like, it's not a big church, like maybe 40 or 50 people, you know, in a church in Tooting in South London, where I grew up. And my mum and dad would just sing. It sounded like a gospel choir kind of thing. No, it's not big in like, you know, in America, you guys have amazing, like, huge production setups like amazing music you know this is very like down to earth from the heart direct from you guys to god mainline in the gospel you know come as you are mate did you listen to much gospel yeah definitely yeah yeah growing up was a lot of kirk franklin and Donnie McClurkin and some amazing music I was exposed to from a really young age.

27:13And the thing about gospel as well is it's just musically so complex. I don't even think gospel gets enough credit for how technically difficult it is to really execute those things. You know, you have them, MDs live in the church on a microphone like, okay, we're going to chord four and then five, boom, boom, hold, hold, hold. We're going six, seven. I'm like, this is serious practice. Oh, for real. It's for real. It's not a joke. No, it's great. All right, I want to go back now. So you have a few songs for My 21st Century Blues. You're still with Polydor. You're kind of getting the runaround.

27:47What happens next? The understanding from my perspective also was if I was going to do an album, it would need to be a dance album. So My 21st Century Blues kind of got put on the back burner and I was working on a record I needed to hand in songs 115 BPM or above. Like it needed to be like that kind of sound. So as far as my constraints allowed, I set out to make an album that I was going to call Dark Dance Songs and it was going to be minor. And I'd say the closest thing I had to it was like Black Mascara, which I put on my 21st Century Blues. It was all this kind of, I was trying to find my compromise.

28:29And then, yeah, it just ended up that, you know, I had a new person who just joined our team and started working as my day to day. And she wasn't supposed to tell me we were in the middle of a shoot for something else. You know, I'm like maybe four or five months into writing this album and I'm becoming invested and I'm excited about what it's going to be. And then she'd basically just said that if this song you've just put out doesn't do good, you're not going to be able to do the album. It just got really messy. And I was just I hit just a boiling point, a breaking point. I was so angry and so frustrated and so pissed off.

29:04I felt like I was just getting treated so unfairly. And I've been trying so desperately for the last seven years to prove to them that I am a musician. Like, look, I'm writing for this person. Like, are you proud of me yet? Like, I was just so desperate. And who were you writing for at that time? You know, I had a good healthy amount of cuts, you know, in the dance world and with some girl bands and some solo artists. And I'd been doing good things. And every time, I remember every time I'd get caught, I'd kind of want to tell them and be like, look, look, I was just so desperate for them to believe in me, really.

29:44I've really tried so hard to achieve that and I just failed. So yeah, it just got to a breaking point. Yeah. So I know you sent a tweet out at some point. was that a spur of the moment thing was that calculated like let me just see we'll try something here or what was zero strategy and planning went into that moment i'll tell you i just was like in my head what the f do i have to lose like i have nothing to lose i was at a point where i was like i would rather just be a songwriter like i've seven years is a long time especially from a kid you know and then that pressure of that i think it's a lie personally but that pressure of you know when you're young it's exciting and as you grow up you're gonna miss your window especially as a woman like these lies you hear and yeah just got to a place where if this is what it is to be an artist I don't want to do this I hate some of these songs I'm putting my name to them out here smiling and pretending I like trying to sell this is like soul destroying especially when I'm like in love with with my craft I'm in love with music I was a kid when I decided to dedicate my life to work in music and wanting to pursue a career and it was breaking my heart it was just making me so sad yeah so I just got to a point we just moved house and I was in my room it didn't have a bed in it so I just remember being like on a block mattress on the floor and the only thing I had in my room was a picture of Nina Simone and under it said a quote it's an artist's duty to reflect the times.

31:18I remember sat there in tears like, what the hell am I doing? I'm not doing anything important. I'm not doing anything that feels right. Nina would be so disgusted by everything I put to my name. She would be like, ew, get her out of my face. I was like, what have I become? I was just like, and I said, no, no, no. And I just let it rip. That's a very Nina Simone thing to do, let it rip. I mean, thankfully it all worked out. I suppose as the story goes from that tweet, do you guys work something out so they let you go? Does that go back to that clause? The key man? No, I sadly never had that clause in my contract.