Rewind: Johnny Marr

31:22Justin Richmond:blend with this because it seems like everyone felt like they had their thing and you're kind getting put into it yeah did it take you a second to figure out okay this is what i want to bring or was it kind of just luckily instantaneous no no i conceptualized it which i don't mean for that to sound very dry or contrived even though uh no i really enjoyed going what's my role here how can i be really useful and bring something uh melodic catchy technical it was a little like Ocean Six and I happen to be the kind of British bomb disposal expert or the safe cracker. I was like the safe cracker. No, I really enjoyed that.

32:03I thought, okay, I can't just put my head down and go one, two, three, four and just play. I really, really enjoyed devising all these parts and on that record, we were dead. For anyone who's interested, usually I'm doing all the stuff on the left and Isaac's doing the stuff on the right and we, this might be getting a bit to Muso, but when we were coming up with all those songs and those parts, we were in this attic in Portland and sometimes Isaac and I, the way I started to think about it, it was like, you know, two racing car drivers that were on the same team, you know, like sometimes McLaren and stuff, same team, and we're both going around this track and then sometimes it's like, no, after you, no, after you, after you.

32:45And occasionally we literally physically crashed into each other because we were stood either back to back or next to each other in this kind of little space. And it was really hot. And we're up there and we've been up there for hours. And sometimes we'd be a bit buzzed. And we'd really listen to each other. And I'm trying to then I'll just jump up the octave. And then he'd play something and I'd go, I'll get down there. And literally we sometimes would bang into each other. And I thought that was really cool. Wow.

33:13Justin Richmond:Had you had that level of chemistry before, like that level of intense? In a different way, yeah. but it was a different thing with all the bands that I've actually been a band member of I think I bring a certain kind of intensity and a sort of belief in that even without my guitar I think I bring a sort of belief in the mission because I think that's very useful in a band I mean I'm all in I think people realise that now it used to frustrate me when I was younger when the press just reported because when I was younger I used to be a little oh it looks like I'm just bailing I'm leaving this band and I'm leaving that band but after all these years now I think people realise that anyone who's interested it's probably the reverse you know like when I if I join a band I'm really in I mean my family moved to Portland or when I was in the cribs I got in the van and I played all the shows and I don't expect any other kind of separate treatment I really get in because it's the way I was when I was 15 in bands.

34:21It's no different.

34:22Justin Richmond:That is so cool. Was it because of that level of chemistry that you realized, well, I'm part of the band, or was it already sort of decided? You're sort of in for the ride at this point? No, do you know what? The very first night we got together, Isaac and I wrote the song with that single, Dashboard, became the single. And then I woke up really jet-lagged at about, whatever, four o 'clock in the morning, because I'd only got in from England the day before. and I woke up and I kind of was like, where am I? Oh, I'm in a hotel in Portland. Did we just write like a really cool, cool song with this guy?

34:54In fact, we wrote two songs that night. We wrote another one called We've Got Everything. That was me and him. Wow. And then, frankly, because Modest Mouse had paid for this English guitar player to come over for 10 days, they had to kind of get to rehearsal for noon because, you know, they paid for my flight and it was kind of like a little bit like, all right, everybody, you know, you know the ringer's here or whatever we better get we better get here right but quite cleverly Isaac had done it so a couple of members would join each day would come me and him would feel each other out so as the days went on with each couple of people that arrived and we would jam and get a new song and jam and get a new song very quickly I was just like I like these guys they like me there's such a positive feeling everyone's so enthusiastic something's really happening here and I phoned my manager and I said listen I'm supposed to be flying back on Wednesday or whatever I'm going to stay I'm gonna stay for a few weeks and I fell in love with Portland the city uh this was 2005 so to answer your question um by the time you get that sort of brotherhood going in a band and you're all really excited and also you you're playing together these long hours you know six seven hours and you've got a song and then you want to fix it the next day and you're and you're working on this thing it was that simple it just would have been really weird to bail yeah 10 days and out after building that yeah and then that turned into two weeks and then three weeks and then we're all talking excitedly about oh man are you gonna wouldn't be great if you did some gigs and i was like wow and and the key thing is i really start to uh i've this with a few projects i start to really care about the songs we're making yeah i really really care about them even if i ever written like in the you know my relationship with matt johnson i really believed in what he was doing and some songs you know we would make these backing tracks and and he'd be like you know soul searching about the lyrics and this isn't right and that isn't right and i felt like i was going through all of that with him you know and we did this album dusk in 92.

37:02But that's what I mean about being all in. You know, people don't really know that about me. You know, I'm 24-7 if I'm in a band.

37:11Justin Richmond:How does that translate to when you're leading your own group? It's very different with my own band because it's a different scenario with my band. We've been together now 10 years, the same lineup. We all live in the same postcode, pretty much. but we all, hey look, we all live within 10 miles of each other which is kind of unusual for guys of our age. I've been in bands where people live in different cities and different countries. That was a very deliberate thing. When I came back from Portland, I moved to Manchester not because it's my hometown, I moved here because it's a really great place to run a group and I knew these musicians and I wanted for us to all, I wanted to be at a call of rehearsal for tomorrow night and we all be able to get there.

37:56Someone doesn't have to get on a train or a plane, right? But why it's different in my band is I write songs and then I bring them to the band and they learn them and we learn them up and I kind of run it and that's the way they like it. I mean, we're really very much a group, but all the torturous, I guess the torturous process where the singer, which is me in this case, is soul searching about lyrics and all that, my guys just lead me to it and they say, look give me a call when you got the thing done man the bastards so in a way i suppose in my experience my band when we first got together the closest that i'd seen it's a bit what uh it's like how i saw beck beck's band we kind of when we started we kind of went that's kind of the yard stick for the kind of music like a british version of that really oh cool you know what i mean like When you go and see Beck, it was really tight, and usually the tempos were up, and the drums were really snappy.

39:04He was a leader, but they were also a band. But you knew the guy was going to have a good band. I kind of decided with my band that that's the way I wanted us to be, really, a bit like Beck's band.

39:16Justin Richmond:What makes Manchester a great place to run a band out of? Well, what Seattle was to L.A. in the 90s, Manchester is that to London. Do you know what I mean? So being a musician is a little easier in... Manchester is now like... Well, but like Seattle, it's very... There's a lot of money in it. It's a second city, so... So London, if you're a musician, okay, and you've got to get rehearsal, it takes you twice the length of time to get to rehearsal space as it does in Manchester. People are usually... I love London and there all the time, but musicians have to live quite a long way out of town because it's really expensive to have apartments there and all of this sort of stuff.

39:58Manchester's a little bit more, is a little more like Seattle. And, you know, like Seattle, it had a big movement. It rains a lot, like Seattle. So it's an indoor culture. There's a whole load of things, you know, just in that make, that historically make Manchester really great to run back. Well, there's a history here as well. So for me, in my generation, I grew up knowing like, well, the Buscocks did it. Okay, I mean, yeah buscocks i mean they were just like gods to my generation buscocks proved that you didn't have to live in the capital that you could live in the provinces and make great really cool music because before that it was just it was all about london london london all these bands it was either london and la really london la so you've got a heritage and then so because buscocks did it smiths were able to do it and the fall and then because a new order and joy division and because the Smiths and Geordie Vision and New Order did it, then Happy Mondays and Stone Roses knew they could do it.

40:56And then because they did it, then Oasis saw that they could do it and so on. Youngsters know that you can be a Manchester band, you know? And so that goes right back to the 70s now with Buzzcocks. So having that in the air and knowing that it's a musical town is a good place to sort of grow up around when you're a fledgling musician. But really, it goes way back historically to like the 1860s, 1870s, when Manchester was literally the industrial capital of the world and the Industrial Revolution and all the immigrants came. So from really everywhere, Eastern Europe and the Caribbean and the West Indies and Ireland, in my case, and all of this business.

41:36So it's a real melting pot, Manchester, of working class immigrants and they all brought their own cultures and their own need for entertainment. so a lot of comedians jewish comedians came out here a lot of people came from eastern europe in my case you know a lot of my family they moved over in the early 60s and they came over to work in construction and building the roads and all of this stuff the irish and um my parents went to all the irish clubs and they would see all the show bands and me and my sister would go and sometimes to these places in the afternoon where my dad was a booker for these bands and so we grew up around Your dad booked bands?

42:15Yeah, he did.

42:16Justin Richmond:Incredible. I love it. Yeah. That was in the 70s. Me and my sister would be there. We'd be giving, like, soda and just loads and loads of sugar. And I'd sit there and I'd watch these cabaret singers and their microphones would be going into a space echo or a tape echo, a Watkins copycat. And there'd be an organ player and a drummer. And if I was lucky, there'd be a guitar player. and they'd be playing all these kind of 70s songs and i thought that was amazing i just watched these me and my sister watched these bands be like holy shit this is great and sometimes i'd go no they're not too good dad no they're not too good but just seeing the amplifiers and the electric guitars and all that i would have been like nine or ten i thought that was magic yeah wow so your dad did construction and then somehow got into booking like what was that well that was to do with the catholic that was to do with the catholic church because he was so he's a working class irish guys are saying he he laid pipes he dug holes in the road my dad i'm very proud of it but to do with the catholic church big irish thing they would have bands on on a friday a friday and saturday night and all these bands would go and audition in these bars or these pubs usually on a sunday afternoon and all of these they used to call themselves agents but all these people who could say hey listen come and play at my social club for 50 pounds so they would go and audition for people like my dad you know so amazing yeah yeah i mean they weren't all that great but to me it was magic it must have been an education unto itself you know in terms of how to be and on stage and you know 100 % 100 % what it was was the big thing for me was that I um when I watched these bands set up their equipment when I was about seven or eight at these parties so this this was a little early because we used to have these these bands play at christening it being I don't know reinforce a cultural stereotype but there was a lot of christenings and a lot of weddings and um my aunties and uncles had used to have these bands come and play but when I saw these adults setting up their equipment that was when it occurred to me that oh this is a job ah usually nearly always guys these guys and i see the same people these same guys and they'd be bringing their amplifiers and someone's setting the drum kit i'd be like oh as an adult you can do that it's not just people on the television because on the television you just see these bands magically appear magic it's magic and looking great you know with the velvet suits on and all of this and i'd actually see these men setting up their equipment and pulling these amplifiers and feeding back and testing and i i was like where do i sign up for that wow that looks like a great job yeah and your parents must have been thrilled as much into music as they are that you started thinking that way right yeah you know i think a lot of people can probably relate to they were absolutely thrilled until at 15 I decided, or 14, decided that I was going to go for it and not go to school.

45:30Right, right. So now that it's worked out and it's my day job, they're really, really proud. Much more than the fact that I'm famous, they're just really proud that I'm a full-time guitar player. Seriously. And if I ever make records where there's not enough guitar in it, I kind of get to hear about it. Right. You're just lagging off. And, yeah, but, you know, man, craft work. No, it's okay, I'm playing synth on this one. So they're proud of that. But, you know, like a lot of teenagers, you know, I went through kind of a pretty rebellious and rough patch. We went through kind of a bit of a, you know, typical sort of rebellious kind of a...

46:11They were worried that when I stopped going to school and was very obviously, you know, taking drugs and spending all my time with these reprobates. But it was all really wrapped up with the music as well. It wasn't just hedonistic stuff. I joined a band. The thing was I joined a band when I was 15 of adults who were very dubious. And my parents kind of said, well, it's either that or you have to get out. So I just left home, you know. Just got out. Yeah, and that was a bit contentious. So I was a little wild 15, 16. but what was your sister thinking my sister was the mediator she was the great mediator she's only 11 months younger than me we were very tight and still are you know but it's a funny one because yeah they were proud of me being a musician but i think when i actually was like listen i'm gonna go for it and i'm gonna go to london and i'm gonna even though you know i had no money whatsoever and i'm gonna join this band and these adults so they were very obviously kind of dangerous characters you know they're pretty druggie they sounded like a cross between uh hawkwind and i guess the stooges they're called sister ray i think their tracks up on youtube it's got a song called suicide so because he'd made a record they sought me out at 15 right and they were like come and be in the band and i'm pretty sure i said listen you are aware that i'm i am 15 or 14 even i think i didn't want it to be a freak show and they're like hey listen no come on come on it'll be cool so i used to go to their rehearsal a couple of times a week and it was the red light area really kind of rough area in manchester a couple of nights a week and um to subsidize that i used to sell clothes to my pals and working clothes shops and all but anyway i left i had to leave home i had to leave home to do that because my parents didn't approve and that was a little bit of a kind of a rough a bit of a I look back now and it was a bit of a wild time for me.

48:07Justin Richmond:London in 77 at 14, 15. Yeah. That must have been crazy. Well, it was amazing because I went to the Marquis when I was 15 to see a band called Pearl Harbor and the Explosions and they had the Stray Cats. Who else was in London at the time? The Clash was still around. This is 78, 79. and I was really into this band called The Only Ones. You know that song, Another Girl, Another Planet? Yeah. So I fell in love with this band called The Only Ones and I followed them around quite a bit and that involved, you know, sleeping on train stations, me and Andy Rourke, who was my best pal at the time, who I enlisted in the Smiths.

48:53So we, yeah, and I used to hang around clothes shops and that was all, to me, that was all part of the apprenticeship of being a musician because I heard loads of records. As I say, I saw Brian Setzer when I was, I think, 14. I saw Patti Smith when I was 14. I saw The Cramps. And to me, all of this stuff has made me what I am, really, seeing all those bands when I was really young.

49:18Justin Richmond:What did you think of Brian Setzer at the time? I couldn't believe it. He was amazing. And what were the Stray Cats doing over there? They had a hit. they had a, I think they were, England was where they took off. And me and my pals were like, listen, there's this crazy guitar player. It's a rockabilly band. I saw them, I think there was, you know, maybe about 30 people in the audience in this hall that held like 800 people. So all of that stuff, you know, I saw Perubu, and I saw a whole load of bands I didn't care for because we used to sneak into all the venues. So I look back on all of that and it can sound romantic and I can make it sound romantic and that's because it actually was.

49:55I had no problem with walking back from a venue, from going to see some band, whether I liked them or not, walking back for miles with no train fare, and it all feeling like it was part of an apprenticeship.

50:09Justin Richmond:Yeah, yeah, all part of the mission. Yeah. How did you meet Andy Rourke? We went to the same school, and he was, you know, it's like with guys in school. I saw another guy with long hair, long, scruffy hair, and we were either going to be friends or we were going to fight. We were either in competition or we were comrades. And I think neither of us wanted to fight. I had a button in America, a badge that said, it was a Neil Young Tonight's Tonight. And he walked up to me and he went, Tonight's the night. And he did this really amazing Neil Young impression. And I was just really impressed that he knew what Tonight's Tonight was.

50:54you do that kind of thing when you're a kid it's so important i was like yeah well i mean i wasn't going to wear one that i'd harvest it had to be obviously it had to be a really obscure badge and uh and he walked up to me and he just sang tonight's the night and i thought wow this guy's cool and then we just became friends for life you know it's beautiful yeah did you see neil on that tonight's the night tour in london no no that was i was too young for that yeah you know the big amazing story about that about tonight's the night that tour so he came over to england he played at the scala which i might be wrong about it might be the rainbow but anyway uh john lyden told me this so he comes and the album hadn't been released yet and it's also a real down heavy album as you know right anyway he comes out and he's got a scraggly beard and he's drinking loads of tequila and the stage and if you look on the inside of that record the stage set is crazy It's got platform boots hanging up and it's got hubcaps all over the stage and a fake palm tree.

51:55So he comes out and he starts playing this album no one's ever heard. So he plays Tonight's Tonight from start to finish. It's not even been released yet and it's this real down alcohol kind of thing. And he plays it and the audience are like, what the hell is this? And it's going down kind of badly. He goes off and gets called back on for the encore and he says to the audience, now I'm going to play one that you've heard before and he plays Tonight's The Night again.

52:25That happened.

52:27Justin Richmond:I just saw Neil six nights ago. It was just like, this guy does not give a fuck. I love it. You know, I've never seen him play. You've never seen Neil? Never, man. It's crazy. I've just, for some reason or other, just never. It's worth it. It's just, I've never seen someone so... Single-minded. so single-minded you know those don't generalize too much but i've met a few 60s musicians which obviously you know very very fortunate just just a few a handful and they nearly to a man and woman really care about playing you know i mean i might sound obvious but the most important thing is if there's a guitar in the room they will pick it up and and they'll play ronnie wood's like that donovan's like that you know paul mccartney's really like that you know like those people hats off to them you know i think they're really uh ironically it's kind of come around where some of those the older generation musicians they go out and they appear to do it because they love it you know whether it's your thing or not but you know the rod stewart's and the who's and the jaggers and springsteins and all of those sort of people joanie mitchell even now coming back you know it's nice to see that those people who could be just sat on their boats or sat under the palm or spending all the time with their architects and all of that, they appear to be out there doing it because maybe they know something that we don't, which is, you know what, there really isn't anything better.

53:56I've realised how super fortunate I am that I have people's ears. You know, there's an audience of people who are interested in what I'm up to at the moment. That's such a motivation. But I do like to think that, this might be bullshit, but it's easy for me to say, but that if I didn't, I'd still be playing every day, practicing.

54:17Justin Richmond:Yeah. You know, just for the love of it. And just to try and get better and better. In some ways, you know, if that's all you've got to do all day, you get pretty good. Yeah. But it's horses for courses. You know, I like what bands are. I like what indie rock, for one, I don't want to put myself in a box too much, but I like the area of music that I work in. I still feel like that there are surprises in that area of music. Obviously, you and I, we can talk about, go off on these different tangents, talk about all kinds of different music, you know. But my mission, I think it almost kind of got doubled in a way when I got the solo band together.

54:56I felt like I had this freedom to pull in all my influences that really goes back to people like Sparks. It's an interesting thing, I think, because what you love is such a subjective thing, obviously. and I think you get to a point in your life where you kind of go back to as an influence you really do draw on those things that were your first loves yeah I love being in the modern world I'm not particularly a nostalgic person but the area of music that I'm working in guitar music I guess melodic that I suppose you know I don't really use terms like art rock but you know I'm fine with being called an indie musician it all sounds like to me it's all what used to be called rock music anyway for the longest time i used to call myself a pop musician for the longest time and still until i started really recognizing that pop music is something very very different now and i think that's post rave and to do with the technology and all this sort of stuff i'm not gonna make past judgment on it but when i started out that 11 or 12 and studying these records T-Rex The Sweet Sparks that luckily for me had amazing guitar playing on it on those what in England we call glam rock in America glam rock was a different thing it was a little bit I know to do with Sunset and the hair bands and all that

56:20Justin Richmond:hair metal yeah yeah but in England glam rock was very definitely 1972, 73, 74 Davey Bowie you know you listen to the Gene Genie and all that stuff which you know those 45s were an amazing education for me and as I say it's probably subjective because that was when this stuff really really hit me but I still think that what I do is working within that area where it's for me the best thing is it's concise it doesn't have to go on for seven or eight minutes unless I'm making a point and there's guitar hooks in it and the tempos are up and yeah it makes it gets a blood racing a little bit with some quite sort of interesting clever if possible lyrics that fit that's the pop musician in you that that that's where that is located and that's where probably i'd imagine like probably how you fell in love with chic in the 70s yeah yeah well i think with chic it was to do with the the harmonic progressions a lot i always say this but with so much is made with now rogers everyone obviously thinks even if they're not musicians what they're thinking of is his right hand.

57:33Well, what I really fell in love with was his left hand, his beautiful McCoy Tyner. First time I ever met now, Rogers, first question I asked him was, do you really like McCoy Tyner? Because the chord progression's so beautiful, so pretty, so emotional. You know, I want your love and Lost in Music and, oh man. So that's why I like that stuff particularly. It wasn't just the groove. It was those beautiful harmonic changes. So yeah, I'm a real melody freak. And I'll try and squeeze those hooks in to exciting kind of punchy guitar music wherever I can. Amazing. Especially if it's my own stuff.

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1:01:03Justin Richmond:We're back with the rest of my conversation with Johnny Marr. Where did the riff for Spirit, Power, and Soul... Can you figure out how you arrived at that riff? Yeah. What I did was months before when I was on the road, we had this third album called Call the Comet. I started to think the next single off the next album should be like an electro banger. I kind of did conceptualize it hand on heart. Now, hey, I wish I could do that with every track, but the Smiths used to do that sometimes. We'd go, because I was given a title often, not always but sometimes say sometimes I was given a title like panic and I was like oh what does that conjure up or meat is murder and with meat is murder I set myself the task of writing a horror score for animals because I had the title so I quite enjoy hey listen as I say I wish I could do it more often but I had the idea for spirit power and soul months before and I went oh man this band the next album the first track on it it'd be really good if i can write an electro banger so i started with a drum machine i borrowed a drum machine off steve morris from new order which i've actually i've got to give it in back and um yeah and i thought if i'm gonna borrow if i'm gonna borrow a drum machine who better to borrow one off than steve morris great uh so i got in a programming even though i could have done it much quicker on the laptop but that wasn't the point i wanted to do the process and i was kind of going all right we'll do something that's like cabaret voltaire so i had the beat anyway i was playing along with that for like four days and i wrote this song that wasn't very good and then i had to just kind of scrap it and apply myself again and i just wrote it and wrote it and wrote it and wrote it i went in the studio from 10 till 5 or 6 for five days, and I would sing melody and melody, and this is too clever, this is too melodic.

1:03:08I just knew what I wanted, but I knew what it would be when I found it. Hey, I'm talking a little bit like I've written a day in the life, but that's what I had to do.

1:03:18Justin Richmond:It's a great song, man. It's a great song. Thank you very much. Well, I appreciate that because I worked my ass off doing it. I just kept writing these vocal melodies that were too melodic. so it became a real craft the interesting thing about that song is that sometimes i have ideas and i've had these ideas from being a kid where i have an idea for what would be a good song away from the guitar and away from the studio and i have it in my mind and then i set about trying to do it and when it works out it's fantastic it's a wild way to come come to a song like you're you're not even in the realm of music you're away from it yeah you would think that that would be the worst song potentially that it's like this thing where you're like conceptualizing it before you even have the chance to you know yeah well i'm really glad it works out but i was determined um and to be fair i think when you're talking about skill say one of the skills that i've learned that i didn't have years ago was i learned this perseverance from bernard sumner from new order working with Bernard for nine years in electronic, if he had an idea for a song and he believed in it, he would not let that thing go away.

1:04:34He would keep coming back to it until it was right. So that was a skill that I've learned along the way from somebody else. It wasn't to do with, you know, diatonic scales or to do with, you know, music theory. It was to do with application process. And I've learned on that subject, it's been, I could go through all the people I've worked with and tell you what I've learned from them. Now I think about it, I might be getting a little bit sentimental in my old age, but Isaac Brock, Chrissie Hynde, everyone, everyone, really, I learned something from all of them, you know.

1:05:13Justin Richmond:What about from Chrissie? Chrissie, hey, listen, I played with her last week at Glastonbury, you know, and that was amazing, rejoining, those songs after 30 years, you know, because I haven't played them since 1980, whatever. So Chrissy, well, I learned that there's a lot. When you walk on stage, even though I don't want to embarrass her, she might not even realise this, but when you walk on stage as the front man, you give off the vibe to the rest of the band that no matter what happens, you've got this. And I picked that up because I was very young when I was working with Chrissy. I was 24 and we were doing these.

1:05:51We were playing sometimes, we played to 100 ,000 people opening for U2. And certainly 70 ,000 people most nights on the Joshua Tree Tour. And I'm telling you, I was terrified. But when I walked behind her on stage, I was like, it's cool, she's got this. And I'd try and be that for my band. And also, you know, things like in rehearsal, when you hear that one, two, three, four, when you start singing, you sing like you're on stage. None of this, like, looking at your phone or looking up at the roof or being distracted. For those four minutes that you're singing, you really are in it. Yeah, I learned a lot from Chrissy, yeah.

1:06:29She's quite dedicated as her role as front person. In a natural way. In a natural way, because a big part of her as well is that she's a punk rocker and she's not too referential. The business of being in a band, she honours that. She thinks being in a band is a special thing, and especially her relationship with a guitar player. that goes right back to jimmy scott who i was a big fan of when i was a kid which you can really

1:06:55Justin Richmond:hear in my playing you know yeah speaking of like you know you're sort of thinking of yourself as a pop musician in a weird way on paper it could look like a strange pairing but i think having spoken to you now it seems to make a ton of sense you and han zimmer and pharrell getting together yeah about a decade ago to work on some of that spider-man stuff like yeah you know well i've got to say this is classic Hans because Hans is a real lateral thinker he really thinks outside of the box and um he genuinely has told me this so many times now that I really think it's true so when me and Pharrell first got in a room together and we wrote two songs on that that thing just me and him Hans loves telling the story that he was watching the guy who wrote literally watching the guy who wrote heaven knows I'm miserable now writing a song with the guy who wrote happy he thought that was hilarious and um so we got offered that movie the amazing spider-man 3 and he and i got together and he was like well what comes to mind what you're thinking i don't really know the franchise very much but i had this idea i saw the opening scene saw a real rough of it and it was new york and it was like there's a lot of action and everything and i i said you know what it should it should be like the who i wasn't thinking classic rock but i was just thinking it should be like won't get fooled again it should be like if you're asking me as a guitar player power chords it's whoa this big kind of explosive thing i never think in terms of metal it's just not my bag but yeah if i think explosive i think of like the who or whatever and he really liked that idea and then from that he jumped then to like having a band in a room so straight away because junkie xl was he had a studio in the same building that we were in and he was brilliant like well listen we'll get junkie excel on bass and then um we had this idea about this explosive pop but hans then was like who's the most melodic singer that you can think of who's like who's amazing at coming up with melodies and he just let's just ask pharrell and i was like huh well i was like well this will be interesting i mean i'm i'm not i'm sure i'm not the first person to say this at all but when pharrell comes in the room he's like where's the tune let me write a tune he's amazing we were putting a song down i'm sure i don't i'm sure he won't mind me telling this story i've been for a run in the morning and i had this idea for that we needed a romantic song we need like the love the love song in this and i just happened to be out running in the morning and i heard that this this tune in my head i was like oh that'll be good so i'll get I was enthusiastic to get in the studio and put this tune down.

1:09:42So I got in the studio kind of early and we're in this big room and I started laying this down and there was some of the musicians, a couple of string players, piano, and I think maybe Hans was playing piano. And Pharrell wasn't there and we started running the chords down and I've got this tune and we're putting it down and we're recording it. And about the second time I get through this tune, Pharrell walks in and we're halfway through the tune and he's kind of trying to be quiet not make a noise and he's got he picks the microphone up and when we finish doing this quick run through we go to start a third one for some technical reason and he's asking steve lipson to stop the track i want to sing and hans goes can we just put the track down he goes i want to now my point in telling this story is that most musicians know that is the opposite of what happens what usually happens is you have a tune and you put the tune down and you have to wait for days for the singer to sing.

1:10:39Pharrell was like, plug this in, plug this in, let me sing. It was brilliant. And he's in the control room. He's tapping on his phone all the time, tapping on his phone, writing lyrics. So my experience with Pharrell on that movie, he's exactly what I thought he was. Just music just oozes out of the guy.

1:11:03Justin Richmond:I love it. Yeah, so that was this funny thing. But when I've been asked a couple of times about collaboration, right, I use that example of writing with Pharrell as an illustration as to what happens in the collaborative process. Because on the face of it, what I say is it's like when you've got two musicians working together. On the face of it, look, I'm an indie rock musician from Manchester in the 80s. And then Pharrell is a R &B, hip-hop pop musician from America. But I always say it's a bit like you get in a rowboat and the two ears are rowing in the same direction and the horizon is the speakers.

1:11:47I think the point is that music and collaboration and when you're trying to create something with someone, even if you don't know them very well, it transcends your being from different backgrounds. Completely transcends it.

1:12:01Justin Richmond:Yeah. Music's amazing for that. and collaboration is amazing. You're both trying to just come up with a really good middle eight. And because of that, because people on the outside will go, oh, yeah, you have to check your egos at the door. Well, I mean, that's a given, because people who are serious, they just want to make something great. And it's not even a question of egos. You know, I mean, the people I've worked with, the greats, you know, I'm sure they have an ego when they're getting out on stage, but when it comes down to work, you know, you know, you've got to put the hours in. Billie Eilish is like that.

1:12:37Alicia Keys is like that. Just real hard working, rolling the sleeves up and putting the hours in, you know?

1:12:44Justin Richmond:All right, talking about greats who put in the work, what was it like observing or being a part of the Joshua Tree Tour, like seeing you two in that moment as up close as you were? well the amazing thing was um i told edge this actually that so when i joined that tour because the pretenders have been doing it for a while and then the guitar player quit and then i joined on there at that point bono was doing this thing where he's in front of whatever 70 80 000 people and they've got this material that is just really sounding good in those stadiums and don't forget it was new music then Where the Streets Have No Name and I still haven't found what I'm looking for they were new songs that people were just hearing on the radio right so it was like whoa this is a pretty good place to be I was set at the side of the stage going wow when you hear that when you hear Where the Streets Have No Name which I think they used to start with you go wah I think this song's going to stick around for a while and so there was a vibe and they come on and Bono was doing this thing where midway through the set or whatever, he would climb up onto the PA and then he would climb onto whatever, on some lighting truss or whatever.

1:14:02And he was hanging down off doing that thing and he'd be hanging down off it. And, you know, and Chrissie said to me, God, look at that. You know, he's kind of laughing about it. What does he think he's doing? And I said to her, you know, Chrissie, I saw him do that in front of about 40 people in a little room in Manchester when they first came to Manchester in 1980, I want to say. Me and my pals went down, we'd heard about them on the John Peel show. And I thought, that's really cool because he was doing it back then. And also, I guess the music, I think I started to see that, well, first off, you've got to have a real, you've got to have a lot of energy to be the head of, you know, that kind of organisation.

1:14:51with like, you know, 15 trucks and such a big, big organisation, you know, that takes a lot out of you during the day. Forget even the shows, just being the centre of all of that operation, which, you know, made me realise that I'm kind of OK with being what I am, you know, because, you know, I don't like a lot of fuss. So I really admired that. But how masterful it was that the tunes have to be really... If you listen to that kind of music, which I guess was part of what defined now stadium music, it's very simple, but it's... I remember those nights as being pretty... There's a lot of motion in that music.

1:15:36Simple doesn't necessarily mean vacuous.

1:15:40Justin Richmond:Yeah, that's a good point. I still haven't found what I'm looking for. It's such a...

1:15:47And the singing, man.

1:15:50Justin Richmond:Yeah. So, yeah, that was really, that was very, very cool. And again, you know, the chemistry of a band, if ever, you know, you want to talk about chemistry, you know, look at those guys. They're kind of really archetypal. Yeah. You know, the edges are really archetypal. His role in the band, you know, he's kind of arty and he's got imagination and he sort of paints pictures and with his guitars, sound and all of that. And Adam really holds it down. And then Bono's a flamboyant onstage and off kind of concepts guy. And then Larry's the guy who kind of really, he formed the whole thing and he's like the engine in a way.

1:16:29Yeah. So it comes back to that thing of you are what you play.

1:16:34Justin Richmond:Yeah. When I think about The Edge, I also start to think about like Johnny Greenwood. Oh, yeah. I mean, he seems to me like you also, where it's like it's sort of just down to like how like it doesn't matter how complicated it sounds it's just like what fits this track you know and is adventurous similar yeah well well difference between me and johnny that though is that he's been able to grow with the same musicians over a long period of time yeah you know i mean because again they're another band you know with amazing chemistry you know they've all become who they are i mean i know now you You know, they got to a place where they're all doing their own projects and everything.

1:17:12But Johnny's been in a place where he's been able to grow with Phil Selway playing behind him and with Tom next to him. The difference with me is that I've done that in different bands. I think that's a big difference between me and Johnny. You know, in a way, if you like, Johnny's family stayed together a long time.

1:17:34Justin Richmond:Yeah. Whereas my family was a very, the family I was known for was very short-lived. you know the smiths which is fine no it happens with a lot more bands in than the ones that stay together for 40 years think about the beatles too the beatles the beatles short-lived but a lot of packed a big punch in their time and it's i mean you look at the work you guys did in the short amount of time it's like damn that's a lot of it's a lot of work yeah yeah it felt like that and yeah i'm very extremely proud of it but i think johnny's uh as well as being supremely talented i i think he's been in a place where he can really um he occupies his his place in that band and has done for a long time now and he's you know that band they've all they've all sort of grown around each other you know what i mean you pick any album like kid a or that you know amnesiac that period i really like him rainbows as well and um they've all kind of evolved together so i think that's really suited him as a musician.

1:18:38I think it always suited my personality to kind of flit around really. You know, it doesn't come as any surprise to me whatsoever that I've been in loads of different bands.

1:18:48Justin Richmond:Going back to the beginning of our conversation, I love that it's something you've done. And I wish you, I don't know, it's like, you know, if I had my druthers, my personal taste taken into consideration, if I had my druthers, I would have that happen more often. Like I love seeing different, like going back to jazz, like I love, it's like I love the fact that I can pull up and be like oh I want to hear oh I can hear Oscar Peterson play with with Chet Baker on this one or I can hear oh I want to hear Wayne Shorter play with you know Jimmy Cobb instead of what you know yeah right I just want to hear what the different combinations of formations sound like and that's what's cool about and why I got into making those playlists around you is because it's like just cool to hear how someone sounds in different contexts with different people different times it's just fun yeah thanks well sometimes I think what I do is is more heard in some situations than others.

1:19:36So in the, there was quite a lot of space for me to do my thing in, especially on the Dusk album, you can hear, you can hear me quite a lot. And then in other times, like with, with electronic, the guitar kind of got squeezed out, but that was my actually down to me because I was really kind of getting, getting so into electronic pop. And I just got really enthusiastic for that. And I guess, you know, I just sort of fell out of love with being a rock musician during that period, but that's okay. because I was only 25, 26, 27. It's all part of it, and I've done that now. And, you know, but where the guitar did feature on Electronics Records, like Feel Every Beat and Get the Message, it was pretty interesting stuff.

1:20:18I kind of wish that I'd done more of it. And Bernard was always, to be fair, Bernard was always encouraging me to do more of it. But I wanted to learn about other aspects of record making there, so it is all what it is. And, you know, and on the Cribs record that I made, there's plenty of me on that stuff, I can hear a lot of that. So, I mean, I really feel like, and I don't mean to sound glib or whatever, but I kind of think of, as a British guitar player, I've kind of had the best job I could think of. I mean, genuinely. You know, I understand, sure, because the Smiths are so revered and so loved over time and almost, you know, time's made the band almost even more kind of, you know, valued or whatever.

1:21:00the big narrative is people assume oh the band was so short-lived if only they could stay together for longer and all of that but it makes total sense to me that just speaking for my own life that i've i've done all of this different stuff as a guitar player it's entirely the person i was when that when i was 14 15 and i say that all the time and it's it was the person that i kind of dreamed of being really i mean obviously you know life life throws all kinds of curveballs without getting down you know too philosophical nothing's uh doesn't turn out like a fairy tale but professionally man i can't sometimes i think wow i was i was in the there they were my favorite

1:21:37Justin Richmond:band at the time yeah yeah and you didn't maybe and you were with them on maybe you know like maybe their best record you know like dusk is like yeah you know dusk is a real good one yeah it's just weird how it all turned out and then you know i was really when i um the short thing with body smells was that i went through a period where the late 90s where i just wasn't really hearing that much in british guitar music that excited me but i was hearing it in american guitar music i built to spill i really liked and there was a band called the lily the lilies i really liked from out of uh boston i thought lilies were great and um and then and elliot smith and what happened was i met elliot and elliot smith oh yeah i met elliot a couple of times in the first time I met him, I was talking to him about these bands, and he hit me up to Modest Mouse, I didn't know who Modest Mouse was, it was Elliot who told me about Modest Mouse and he said, well listen, have you heard of Modest Mouse he said something like, all roads lead to Modest Mouse, I was like, oh okay, so that's how I got into, he turned me on to Moon in Antarctica and then, six, seven years later, I ended up being a full time member of the band for like, longer than people think, I thought I joined the band 2005 and I left the band 2010, I think and ended up moving to Portland.

1:22:54So that was all down to, without Elliot, I wouldn't have known about that. How did you meet Elliot? I was in LA and a mutual friend said he wanted to meet me and we had a couple of mutual friends and I think XO had just come out and I thought that was great. I just thought he was really good. And then I knew a couple of his musicians and he always had really nice, the thing about him was the people I knew who worked with him were all really nice people. yeah my friend scotty was his drummer for a while so we had kind of we had a sort of mutual sort of scene really so good yeah but i look back on all this and uh i think wow i'm kind of glad

1:23:30Justin Richmond:i'm glad that things worked out worked out amazingly before we go man do you have i see your guitars back there do you have your nine you have a good you have a book coming out called mars guitars that i'm excited to check out do you have your nine pickup guitar back there no one's ever asked me about that guitar they probably won't again just it's in my actual studio because this is this is my house now but it's an amazing sound it's a fucking crazy looking guitar you know i don't drink anymore but uh i wasn't actually drunk when i bought it i may have but it was back in the days when i was like drinking quite a lot i was i was either drunk from the night before but i went into a guitar shop with no gallagher it's only i think it was that maybe the might be when the very first day we met and i saw this thing and i just was like my logic for buying that guitar was like okay if craftwork played guitar that's what they would play noel had only just met me and i think he thought this guy is a crazy crazy rock star that's a fair assessment but you know what maybe it was about what it probably almost 30 years later i had to wait to get a song out of it but it was spirit power and soul ah so cool it came up with the riffs so hey that's my hey that's that's my excuse and i'm sticking to it man i got a thousand and one questions for you man thank you so much it's such a such a pleasure talking to you all right man all the best thank you see ya thanks johnny marr for talking about his epic career you can hear all of our favorite tracks featuring marr as well as some of his solo work on a playlist at brokenrecordpodcast.com.

1:25:13Justin Richmond:You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast where you can find all of our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Taladay, and Eric Sandler. Our editor is Sophie Cran. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin+. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions.

1:25:50Justin Richmond:And if you like the show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. By Theme Music's by Kenny Beats, I'm Justin Richman.

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