Rewind: Robbie Robertson

0:05Pushkin. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human Every December, we start singing. At church, around the fire, in our cars, with the radio turned up. But have we ever stopped to ask, where did our favorite Christmas carols come from? And what makes them so magical? Join me in unwrapping the meaning and the magic behind these caroling classics. Listen to Hark, the stories behind our favorite Christmas carols. available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at americamagazine.org. You want your master's degree? You know you can earn it, but life gets busy. The packed schedule, the late nights, and then there's the unexpected.

0:50American Public University was built for all of it. With monthly starts and no set login times, APU's 40-plus flexible online master's programs are designed to move at the speed of life. Start your master's journey today at apu.apus.edu. You want it? Come get it at APU. When it comes to the holidays, I believe you fall into one of two camps. Someone who loves holiday music, or someone who won't admit they love holiday music. There's something about a voice you love singing a familiar opening phrase, maybe it's Donny Hathaway, maybe it's Mariah Carey, that just flips a switch, and you instantly back into that warm and cozy headspace only the holidays can bring.

1:30For me, that feeling pairs perfectly with a cup of Starbucks caramel brulee latte. That's their signature espresso with steamed milk and a rich caramel brulee flavor topped with whipped cream and a crunchy caramel brulee topping. It's like the sound of the season, but in drink form. And that's really what this season's about. Because this season and every season, together, is the best place to be. Come together over your favorite holiday favorites at Starbucks.

2:03Pushkin. Hey, everyone. This is a bit of a special episode of Broken Record, not just because it features Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell and Bruce Hedlum all at once, but because it happened at the spiritual home, Shangri-La, of today's guest. That's the band's Robbie Robertson, who reminisces about converting a home in Malibu into the now-legendary recording studio run by Rick, before moving on to discussing the band's early days as backup for a rockabilly singer when they were known as the Hawks. And they also discuss Robbie's longtime work with director Martin Scorsese, which earned him an Oscar nomination at this year's Academy Awards.

2:48We should also note that if you like this episode, there's a new documentary called Once Were Brothers, Robbie Robertson and the Band that'll be coming out in theaters on February 21st. This is Broken Record. Liner Notes for the Digital Age. I'm Justin Richman. Here's Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, and Bruce Hedlum from Shangri-La speaking with the studio's architect, Robbie Robertson. We had a fantastic day the other day here. and when I was telling the stories of Shangri-La, you know, the stories of this. Because he envisioned this place and built it and it was unbelievable. And it was mine. You know, the other guys in the band thought this was a good idea.

3:38But from Big Pink to Sammy Davis Jr.'s house to the Worcester, we made these records in not in studios in other places where there was an atmosphere that could be our atmosphere fear and our sound you know and everything was not on somebody else's way of doing somebody else's wavelength you know you would go into a studio and there'd be these used to be these union guys and they'd be like oh it looks like it's lunchtime we're like what are you talking about lunchtime We're about to do something. And I'd be like, I don't know. This should be louder. Don't touch that. So I don't want that. I don't want to do that.

4:29So I said, what we're going to do is we're going to make these clubhouse, these workshop, these studio things that is our world and our music, our sound. And whether it was true or not, I believed that it gave it a character and a thing, which it did for better or worse. What's interesting about that too, is that now it's become more the norm. Yeah. That said, when you did it, technologically, it was much more difficult to do. Like when you did it, you needed big studio equipment. Like today, people can do it on their laptop so they could it's easier to make that jump but when you did it the infrastructure involved was not easy to pull off it was unheard of except for les paul les paul said i'm gonna build a studio at my house and i'm gonna build an echo chamber into the side of this hill right and he was going to do all of these things.

5:36I had an argument the other day with Van Morrison about being able to do this kind of thing. And because he was saying, I only like to play live, just with my band, and I go in and we sing and they play this song and we capture a moment. We've all done that. I know it really well. I played Rick some music the other day that was all like first or second takes. And it was, you know. Songs you've heard. Yeah. Songs you've heard a lot. So anyway, so Van is saying, it's got to be live, and it's got to be blah, blah, blah, and that's the way it used to be, and it's the way it should all be. And I said, well, what about Les Paul?

6:19He overdubbed. He made things. He played on top of himself. He double-tracked things. He invented it. So Van says, I know, but he was magic. wait you met you did you recorded at sammy davis jr's house yes we made the band album the brown album uh and we rented sammy davis jr's house in the hollywood it's up sunset plaza up in the hollywood hills and we all stayed in the house with the family and we turned the pool house where he used to have his parties with Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack and all these people, we turned that pool house into a studio. And the record company thought this was the worst idea they ever heard.

7:12They thought this was ridiculous. He said, drive 15 minutes. We have the best studio in the world here. Frank Sinatra records here, right? All of this stuff. And I was like, no, no, no, this is a different thing. And finally they were like, okay, okay, I guess. I don't know what you're doing and it's probably going to be bad. Sammy Davis Jr. didn't show up in the middle of it. No, Sammy Davis Jr., he still owned the house. He didn't live there. I was imagining him stepping in on one of your recording centers. But everything in the house was built lower. You'd go into the bathroom and the sink was down here.

7:57And everything was built to his specifications. And it seemed like this is great. This is great. Sammy's world. Amazing. And so we recorded the album there. And then we mix it. Or we're going to mix the record. And there's this guy in New York, Tony May was his name. And he had mixed the Isley Brothers' It's Your Thing, Do What You Want to Do. So it was such a great sounding record. We said, wow, let's see if we can get Tony May to mix this. And he worked with Phil Ramone and all these people there. So anyway, he comes in and he puts up the tapes and everything. And he says, these tapes are awful.

8:46I'm going to have to do a lot of work on this. And I thought, hmm, I don't know if I like that. So anyway, he did a mix. It was not what I wanted at all. It's not the way I heard it at all. So anyway, we're like, thanks, Tony. See you. And moved on. Which songs were these? These were on the band album. It was The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down, Up on Cripple Creek. you know, Whispering Pines. What was wrong with his mixes? His mixes were trying to make this slick and bright. And, and there was a woodiness to it. There was a muddiness to it that, that suited the music. It was earthy. And I, I wanted that.

9:39Right. But he didn't get the joke. So that was okay. So I went and mixed the album with a guy, another guy at the old Jerry Ragavoy's hit factory in New York. This guy mixed the album. We mixed it. The guys in the band, we were all in there moving the faders and got it the way that I wanted. So we get it. And then it's like, okay, the guy, the mastering guy, his name is Bob Ludwig. You got to get him to master your record. So we take the record to Bob Ludwig and he puts it, you know, he puts on the tape, the mixes and everything. And he says, oh boy, he's like Tony May. He's like, I don't know.

10:29I'm going to try. I'll see if I can fix this or save this. And I'm like, hmm, that's really depressing. So I go and I tell the other guys. I said, I don't know. We might have done this all wrong. Everybody's saying it's terrible. And that, you know, so the next, I don't know, a couple of days later, Bob Ludwig calls me and he says, I am such an idiot. I am such a fool. I didn't get it. I so get it. This is maybe the most interesting record I've ever heard. He said, I am so sorry. And he told me, Bob Ludwig, he said, I made the same mistake when Sly Stone brought me There's a Riot Going On. I thought that that was a big mistake too.

11:28And he said, and then I realized it, you know, I had to accept it the way that I accepted your record. And so I was like, whew, because I thought he was right. And if he had stayed with that, I don't know what would have happened. So he mastered it and it hardly did anything to it in the mastering. And it was just one of those things. It was a homemade thing. It did have that character to it. and that was part of its specialness. He came very close to ruining two of the great masterpieces of the century. Yeah, well. Do you remember actually the first songs you wrote? I guess for Ronnie Hawkins?

12:16Mm-hmm. What were they like? What were they? Well, one of the reasons he hired me, I wrote a couple of songs for him when I was 15 years old because I heard him say that I need some songs. and I was trying to figure out how I could crash into this world of Southern rock and roll. That's the real thing. These guys are from the Holy Land in the South where this music grows out of the ground. So I've got this whole fantasy in my mind and everything, and these guys can do it and they were all from the south and and they sounded that way and all of it it's just okay we and i'm up in canada so you know what i mean it feels like such a distance and i'm trying to figure out a way how can i become a part of this how can i get into this club and they'll accept me so i hear him say i need some so i go off and i write a couple of songs where are you when you write these songs?

13:22In Toronto, in Cabbage Town. You're in high school? Yeah, I was 15. Did you know anything about writing songs? Well, yeah, I had written some songs already, and this was just something that just kind of boosted your game up. You know, as we go along, certain things happen, and it makes you think, okay, now I got to take on this challenge, And if I can win that war, whoa, I'll now be, this will be my starting place instead of yours. When did you hear Ronnie Hawkins say he needed some new songs? Well, I had a band called Robbie and the Robots. And we were an opening act for Ronnie Hawkins and the Hawks on a weekend in a dance out in the West End of Toronto at an arena.

14:15So we went on and played. You're 15. Yeah. Opened for Ronnie Hawkins. And Ronnie and the other guys, they thought, wow, these kids are not bad. You know, they're not too bad. And that was all I needed to hear. So I was just trying to get some of it. So I was hanging around. And then they went on and killed it. I had never heard anything like that before. That far, that up close, you know. I just heard other bands at the time from Toronto, right, or whatever. This was something, and you had to get into clubs to really hear these people play, but they were doing a thing on a weekend. So I see them play, and I'm like, this is unbelievable.

15:02A real rockabilly band, right? Like Carl Perkins and Elvis and Roy Orbison, right out of that school. so I think and the energy and the excitement in the music and Ronnie was an amazing showman and he always wanted to have killer musicians and they were great so after they played I was just hanging around trying to get some of it to rub off on me you know some of that musicality and so I was trying to be helpful and hanging around. And then I, you know, and, and they ended up liking me and they said, uh, all right, you know, at the hotel, why don't you come by? And I would just try to, try to make myself useful, you know, and somebody needed a new string put on the guitar or whatever, anything, you know?

15:59So I was hanging around, and I was hanging around as much as I could without getting in the way. And one day I hear Ronnie Hawkins say, I got to make a new record, and I need some new songs, you know? So I went home, and I wrote two songs and brought them back to him, said, I wrote a couple of songs. I don't know if they're, you know, what you're looking for. So we played the new songs, and he said, damn, son, I'm going to record both of those. What was the best of them? They weren't any good. You know, I was just trying to get in the door. So I wrote this song called Someone Like You. I think, didn't Adele steal that title from me?

16:53so anyway so he records the songs he records the album comes back to toronto they're playing at a club the lecoq door in toronto brings me the album with the songs on it and i'm like cutting my finger trying to get this album opened to look and see it on the song credits It's everything. There's the two songs. And there's my name. But it's my name and somebody else's name. And I said, who's Levy? There was no Levy there when I wrote these songs. Morris Levy? M. Levy? It was Morris Levy, who owned the record company, Roulette Records, that Ronnie was on. so I'm like this guy how can he just put his name on there so Ronnie's kind of saying son in this business some you know he was just giving me the old shit happens kind of story and I'm like this is just wrong no he wasn't and I'm telling Ronnie he wasn't even there when I wrote them I'm just I'm a kid.

18:06What do I know? And Ronnie's like, listen, son, these guys, these guys up there in New York, and you don't want to mess around with them. They're the kind of people, you know, that, you know, you get in their way, you know, and they find you in the river. He's giving me this whole story. I'm like, in the river? He wasn't even there. So anyway, sometime later, Ronnie says to me, if you can write songs I can write, Maybe you'd be good at hearing what I was going to tell. I'm going to take you to New York, and I'm going to take you to the Brill Building. And we're going to meet all the songwriters, and you're going to listen to their songs and see if there's something that would be good for me to record.

18:48So anyway, we go, and I meet Doc Pomas and Mort Schumann. I meet Lydburn Stroller. I meet Otis Blackwell. It's in my book, Rick. When you read that and you hear this whole story, it's amazing. Otis Blackwell and Titus Turner, all of these guys. And Otis Blackwell is trying to think of a song that might be good for wrong. I'm in his little room, and he's playing a thing on the piano, and he's accompanying himself, telling me how Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis fucked him on the song he wrote, Don't Be Cruel. while he's telling me the story and accompanying himself on the piano. And it's like, this is amazing.

19:33And then Lieber and Stoller are playing me songs. And I'm like, wow, that is a Lieber and Stoller. And I'm saying, it's great. Do you have any more? And finally, Jerry Lieber says to me, and who are you again? And I said, oh, I'm just, you know, I was like, I was in heaven. And Doc Palmas and Lieber and Stoller and Palmas and Schumann went on to be friends of mine for the rest of their life. Amazing. As long as they lived, we were still in contact and friends of mine from that very early point. So we are recording. I mean, I'm listening to songs. Ronnie says, well, we have to go up to the record company and we have to see Morris about some things and everything.

20:27I think, great, we'll get this songwriting thing straightened out once and for all, right? So we go up to this office and it's like a scene right out of that Damien Runyon would have written. It is, there are blondes on the telephone with their hair perfectly over one eye, right out of a movie, right? And then there's these guys in mohair suits with pockmarks and a bulge in their, you know, in their suit, like on this one side. I'm thinking, wow, these people think it's real, you know? They're living in this thing, and then maybe it is real. Right? So then the door opens and Morris Levy says, Ronnie, Ronnie, I love this guy.

21:24Ronnie, come on in. And I think, what happens to gangsters when they're young that their voice goes like that? All these gangsters seem to talk this way. How old was Morris Levy at this time, would you say? I don't know. I would say late 30s. Wow. How old are you? I'm 15 and a half. By now, I'm pushing 16, right? So anyway, so we go in and Ronnie Hawkins is doing his thing. He's doing the camera walk and stuff. And Morris just loves him. So he says, Morris, this is this kid I was telling you about that I think has a lot of potential, right? So Morris is there and he finally looks at me and says, yeah.

22:17He said, if you have to do any time, it'd be good to have him with you. And I'm like, what is it? He means if you have to go to prison, he could be your boy. And I'm like, I'm going to forego this songwriting problem completely. I can't believe that's the joke that he's telling. So anyway, after this stuff, and we did find some songs that he recorded. And then a few months later, he calls me and tells me to come down to Arkansas to try out. Because I'm getting better and better as a guitar player. And he does think, I don't know what it is, but this guy's got something or another. And then I go on this mission to prove, because at 16 years old, I don't have the experience.

23:21I'm not a good enough musician yet. And I'm from Canada. There's no Canadians in rockabilly bands. So it was unheard of. So I had a big mountain to climb in that. And I went down there and I ended up winning that battle. How much did you practice back then? Do you remember? Like, in your mind, to get the job, what was it like? I practiced until my fingers were bleeding. And I woke up many mornings. And the bed beside me was my guitar. So I just thought, I can't let this go by. Because just to convince my mother, too, at 16 years old, I'm leaving school and I'm going to the Mississippi Delta to join up with a rock and roll band.

24:18You know, she's like, what? You know, she doesn't even understand what this could possibly mean, except she could see in my eyes this thing that was so driven. and that it was, and I, and it was like, if I don't try, if I, if I don't do this, I'm going to be sorry the rest of my life. This is the biggest opportunity. It, you know, it couldn't have been in my mind, a bigger, uh, you know, bigger thing. So, and I went down there and Ronnie Hawkins was like, Oh son, you're too young. You're too, I don't know if this is going to work out and i was like you'll see and i play i lied about my age you know for you know five years did you did you look older than 15 at 15 i was 16 now 16 and and ronnie hawkins actually said to me he would say son can you do something can you shave can you i didn't even shave at the time and I didn't know what to do.

25:31And I got an electric razor and I started shaving nothing. And my face was raw from this. All it did was make me red. It didn't make me grow any whiskers or nothing. And so for the first while where we played, I would stand kind of back a little bit in the dark, you know, and cause there would be lights and everything. And I knew just to get out of the way of the lights. And then between sets that we would play, I would just go in the, in the back room and, and stay there until it was time to go on again. Cause there was club guys saying, Hey, I don't want you to get me shut down to Ronnie. And Ronnie was like, no, no, don't worry about it.

26:15I'll blah, blah, blah, blah. And he had to do all this double talking and things. And he, and he would say, no, no, no. It's like he, we call him baby face. He just, He just looks young, you know. He's old enough. He just looks young. But Levon, he joined Ronnie when he was 18 after he graduated from high school, and he looked very young, and they got away with it. So he thought, well, if he could get away with it from him, you know. And then a year after I was with Ronnie Hawkins, All the guys from the South, except Levon, were leaving one by one. And then one by one, we were hiring Canadians.

26:58We hired Rick Danko, who was from Simcoe, Ontario. Then Richard Manuel, who was from Stratford, Ontario. Then Garth Hudson, who was from London, Ontario. And they all had their own bands. So we were, you know, stealing the leaders of all of these bands. I was one of those too. And that Levon and I said, we got to get that kid. He's, you know, he's got potential. We'll be back with more from Robbie Robertson after the break. I firmly believe when it comes to the holidays, you fall into one of two camps. Someone who loves holiday music or someone who won't admit they love holiday music. There's something about a voice you love singing that familiar opening phrase.

27:45Maybe it's Donny Hathaway. Maybe it's Mariah Carey. that just flips a switch, and you're instantly back into that warm and cozy headspace only the holidays can bring. For me, that feeling pairs perfectly with a cup of Starbucks caramel brulee latte. That's their signature espresso with steamed milk and a rich caramel brulee flavor topped with whipped cream and a crunchy caramel brulee topping. It's like the sound of the season, but in drink form. And that's really what this season's about. Little moments of pairing, little moments of connection. Sharing a song, sharing a story, sharing a caramel brulee latte.

28:19Because this season and every season, together is the best place to be. Come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant so you can feel confident you're finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else. The best part is those great candidates are already on LinkedIn. In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30 % more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor.

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29:25Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash broken, then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs' new AI Assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's linkedin.com slash broken to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, the holidays have this way of bringing up all these feelings about tradition. For me, some of the best traditions aren't elaborate. They're just moments. Like when my kids and I are experimenting with different hot chocolate recipes or when I'm making gumbo with them for Thanksgiving.

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31:02When in all this did you start writing the music that became what we know as the band music? Not the actual songs, but when did you start hitting on those ideas? When the Hawks were the personnel, the people that went on to become the band, at one point we outgrew the music that we were doing with Ronnie Hawkins. and we were experimenting with other kinds of songs and other kinds of music and reaching deeper and getting better and better. And finally, we couldn't stay in that place, so we left Ronnie Hawkins. So when we left Ronnie Hawkins, the idea was, okay, we're going to go out and we're going to play some gigs and everything, and then we're going to get a record deal, you know, and become who we are, you know.

31:59And so I started messing around with writing some ideas. I was the only one that thought about songwriting in the group at that time because I had written songs before. It was kind of like, okay, I guess someone's got to do it. I got to do it, right? And so I started writing some things then. And then just as we were getting a record deal and starting to do something, this fellow named Bob Dylan came along and asked if we would help take him electric and be his band on a world tour. So that kind of, you know, it just put everything on hold a little bit, but it was like a phenomenal experience.