Robert Margouleff and Mark Mothersbaugh

30:01We need some peace and quiet and a hug. And we need the part of humanity that's connected to nature and that can reconnect. Because, I mean, the whole idea of like, well, we'll just use up everything on this planet and then we move to Mars. I'm like, well, you better love your cell phone because if you haven't looked at pictures of Mars, it's very boring there. and there's not a good reason to want to go there. You're going to be in a giant parking lot. We need humans to connect more with the natural world. The real issue for music now is how to get heard. Distribution. It's not so much the creation as it is getting that message out.

30:49These guys have been doing it for 50 years. They've got the formula. People know who Devo is. Just like Stevie, too. Everyone knows who Stevie is. But Stevie, you go out on the road, and he will play virtually songs that are 50 years old that were his original material. He can play a whole album's worth of material. The boys go out and play his stuff off of Freedom of Choice. Those are the old songs. Where are the new songs? Where are we going to hear those? How are we going to change the culture again? How do we get heard? I mean, you go to a record company now and the guy says, eh, well, this is okay, but how many clicks do you have?

31:31You know, it's not about the music anymore. It's about trying to get heard and to do something that's meaningful and touch people emotionally and physically. We'll be right back after this break. Small businesses are the pulse of every community. They bring people together, create opportunities, and drive growth. With a widespread presence in communities across the country, Chase for Business supports small business owners at a local level. That makes it possible for you to connect, learn from each other, and grow together. There's a real commitment to seeing small businesses succeed. The Chase for Business team has knowledge and expertise that span a wide range of financial areas.

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34:19Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. I do wonder not, I mean, I don't want to get too hemmed up by a conversation about technology and AI and things like this. But to your earlier point about being a little optimistic about AI, I think where I get pessimistic about it is around this specific point you're making. is that sometimes it feels like, whereas before, back to your Bing Crosby example, the invention of certain kinds of microphones allowed crooning to become a style of music and become a phenomenon amongst, you know, popular music. All these years later, I almost wonder if we've gotten to the point where the tail now wags the dog, where music is in service of technology more often than technology is in service of music.

35:08I think that technology is our musical instruments. I think technology drives the art. I've said it a thousand times, as I said it once. Our technology really does drive how we create and what we create and the space that we live in. I mean, we're here in Mark's studio, which is a glorious space. You guys got to go see it upstairs. But it's a marvel of modern technology. I think there's certain things that have come down the pike in some ways that have been destructive. I think that we moved into dance music, for example, and got locked into the sequencer. And suddenly everything that had backbeat and feel got transmitted to the kick drum and the downbeat versus the backbeat.

35:57And I think that that really sort of changed music a lot. and I think not for the better because it's turned a lot of dance music instead of dance music it's become militant four on the floor it's kind of militancy and I find that you know people want to dance to marching music but I think it really makes a real record happen like for example we were in the studio when we were working together there was a the band had a marvelous drummer His name was Alan Myers. And I'll never forget him. We used to call him Mr. Tick Tock. That guy could really, you know, settle a groove. But when the band was going from a verse to a chorus or to a transition to another section, he knew when to hold it back.

36:45He knew when to speed it up, that there was a degree of motion in his playing. And what separates him from the machine is that motion. Just to go back a bit, you first saw Devo before even their first album came out, right? I saw them at the Starwood. I was up on the balcony with all the executives from the record companies. You could tell they were executives from record companies because they were all wearing these leather jackets, you know, and they were all hunkering around saying, ha, ha, ha, this one's good, this band's good, this band isn't, you know, let's go have some hors d 'oeuvres and a little.

37:24And, you know, and we'd go in the back room at the Starwood and they'd honk around. I was working as the chief engineer of the record plant at the time, consulting chief engineer. I was more or less a sonic maitre d'. I was taking, when bands, big bands came into the record plant, I'd kind of hold their hand and help them get situated and so forth. So it was an interesting thing, but I also had access to the studio. If I wanted to do demos or do something recording, I could always get the free time. So I was up there in the store, always scouting around to see what was going on. And that was the first time I saw you guys.

38:06And I knew then that I liked it. And one thing led to another, and they arrived in the parking lot. And I'll tell you something, took the studio by storm. Normally, these people are nonplussed by anything. These guys came in the parking lot with hoses up their nose and a helmet on. and coveralls and boots and stuff. And the people completely lost their minds, right? I said, I love this. This is for me. We were in the middle of a day of filming with Neil Young for his movie Human Highway. And so we had our costumes. So we just, rather than take everything apart and clean our faces off, we just came over and did it and then went back and we were on the set again.

38:48Yeah, but they turned the studio. We took them on a tour. Everybody saw it. And everybody lost their minds. It was fucking crazy. But you know something? That's what endeared me to these guys. And here we are, Mark and I have been friends now for, what, 50 years? Something like that, yeah. Yeah. Maybe more. Yeah. It's been a long, wonderful journey, you know. We've both made our way in different ways. And we've had the good fortune of having a great friendship. I'm just glad we're still here. I hope I live another 20 years. I'm 85 now, but if I can see what's going to go on when I'm 95, I would wonder where our music is.

39:34Is it going to still be eight bars of this and eight bars of that, three and a half minutes of noise making with words over the top? Or are we going to go somewhere better, bigger, different? Yeah. That's what I really hope to see. Mark is still cutting the front edge of it. He's still gnawing away at it. I agree. I admire that in you. I really do. You're a brave soul, I must say. I guess who sought out who, by the way? Did Devo look for Margulov? We were looking for somebody like a Margulov, and then we found Margulov. He became the guy that we wanted to meet. And you're talking about business manager?

40:13Did we have the same business manager? Yeah, we had the same business manager. Okay, that's it. Me 11. And so he made the connection for us. Were you? I was just bobbing around. Bobbing around being Bob. Being Bob, yeah. How aware of any of those early records that he did, or the records before he worked with you guys, I mean, of the Stevie records or the Heisley Brothers records, even Lothar and the Hand people, were any of those records in your orbit? Sure, that's all the stuff that made us want to find him, because we'd see his name on all these records that were things that we related to. And so that's what made us look for him and try to figure out, how do we talk to this guy?

40:56Would he even be interested in working with somebody like him? We weren't sure what he would be like or, you know. Neither was I. Yeah, and so we met him and then we were like, oh, this is perfect. This is going to be, after we'd had kind of a couple swing and misses where we left feeling like, I wish we could do that again. This is the album that we never felt like that about. Freedom of Choice was the first album that we wrote after we had moved to California. And yeah, it was interesting. We were in this little room on, I think, Seward. Where is S-I-R? It's on Seward. Right around the corner from Motown.

41:38Maybe the aura was flicking off into your rehearsal studio. Motown's L.A. offices were directly across the street on the corner. Yeah, writing that album was interesting because we did it in a room about the size of this that was a storefront that they'd covered up the window. And attached to that was a big room that was a grocery store, had been a grocery store, and was later going to become Amoeba Records. And then I don't know what it is now because I think Amoeba moved out. Apartments. We remember, what's their name? Pink Floyd. They had the big room and they were rehearsing for a tour and they had three semi-trucks and they wanted to go down to two semi-trucks.

42:25And so they were throwing stuff away like old anvil cases and lights and stuff. and they set an ondialine on top of the trash heap. And I was just, you know, watching them because, you know, they didn't know who we were. They were like big and we were just like nobody. And when they put it on the trash heap, I said, hey, what are you guys going to do with that? And they said, you want it? I go, yeah. And so I got this incredible, we ended up using it on something. I can't remember which song, but we put it on something. Do you know what it ended up on? Do you know which song? I honestly don't remember.

43:05I probably remember tonight. We ended up meeting after, I think we'd already finished writing this stuff, or we were pretty far through by the time. I went to a couple of rehearsals, made some suggestions, but seeing them in the studio, in the rehearsal space, gave me a lot of ideas. I knew when I saw them that they were the ideal candidates to bring into the control room. And because the record plant had big quad monitors, you have to understand, this was a time when the studios were moving toward quadraphonic, and that meant speakers in the back. They had come up with a system called Sansui QS.

43:48It was supposed to be able to put quadraphonic music, quadraphonias, I think one artist did. Quadraphenia, the who did quadraphenia. And they were supposed to be able to put quad sound in vinyl. Well, that was a miserable failure. But a lot of people tried to do it. And, of course, the record plant was very keen, being that there were not only a fantasy, a psychedelic fantasy of Gary Kellgren's, but the technology level at that studio was pretty amazing. They built some quad rooms. So when we came on board with Steve, we had these quad spaces. And when I started working with the boys, for example, I was monitoring in quad in the control room.

44:35We could never get it into vinyl the right way, and basically quad failed. People didn't want to buy a separate amplifier for the back speakers, and there were a lot of questions about it. And if you had a wife, you could get the subwoofer out of the fireplace or out from under the piano. and it became, you know, if you were wealthy, you could have quad sound in your home theater, but it never really took off. But where it really took off and where we really used it was monitoring in the control room where I could monitor in quad and really self-realize we didn't need to use earphones because we could be live, we could get all the crosstalk, the right stuff coming out of the right speaker going into your left ear and vice versa, And that was really what changed Devo's voice.

45:26I was able, and they were able to really hear what was going on. The important thing about Devo and recording in the studio is to keep it simple. Knock off the overdubbing everywhere you can. Stop orchestrating it. Stop making it a Robert Margalef record. Make it a Devo record. The thing sometimes, the producer's best thing is to stay behind the fucking curtain. you know i don't want the record to sound like oh that's a robert margaleff record i want it to be a devo record i want it to be a stevie wonder record i think you succeeded in that in all in almost all respects because yes everything sounds very you know looking back on it i realized how much how we listen is how it affects the recordings yeah and that's what separates the men from the boys in terms of making great recordings in my opinion especially pop records But sooner or later, you're going to get away from those eight bars of this and eight bars of that.

46:22I want to see where you go with your film writing. That's the interesting stuff. Well, maybe I should play you some things. I'm all ears all the time for you, my friend. OK. I would love to go back in the studio and really create something crazy with you and Jerry. That would be great fun. Would Devo Ver make another record or is that? I'm trying to encourage it. and I'm using different lures to get us there. So we'll see what happens. You never know. Hope you succeed. Hope you succeed. You know, when we worked with him, it was a time before automation. I still love analog synths and all that, but we'd get our settings and we'd record them, you know, like on Thursday night, and then Friday morning we'd come in and listen to it.

47:09We'd go, yeah, what if, I wish we would have done this a little different, you know, on the sound of the bass and stuff. And Bob solved that problem by teaching us how to send a synth into three different outputs, for instance, or put an amp up in one room that's clean, an amp up that's distorted in another room, and then a board sound. And then the next day you could change things just a little bit. And that was one of the things that frustrated us with recording was up until then. And so he taught us really important things back then. So you would mic a distorted speaker, a clean speaker, and then have one channel go right into the board, like more of a dry sound, and then be able to play with the levels of the three.

48:01Because analog synths, they didn't sound exactly the same from day to day. You plug them in again, and they're warming up, and you're playing it, and it sounds different than when it gets fully warmed up. And there just wasn't automation back then. Yeah, we had what I called Armstrong automation, which is like doing it by hand.

48:28But there's something to be said for that, and I miss that. Now we have digitalists and that. I mean, when we were mixing, for example, and we were at 6 o 'clock in the morning and we still weren't where we wanted to be. We put a big piece of masking tape across the console. Don't touch that knob. It's more than me jobs worth, right? It's that we had to come back and we thought when we walked out of the room and I was headed out to Malibu and flying along the freeway at 6 in the morning. Boy, that was fucking terrific. It sounded wonderful. Nothing was touching. We'd come back in the room and we'd put it up and I'd expect to be, wow.

49:13And I said to myself, dang, that sounds like shit. You know? Yeah. Okay? You know, so, and then we'd be juggling it around for another six hours to do it. Yeah, so before there was. Then he, Jerry, him and Jerry would go out in the parking lot and argue with each other. This, that, and the other thing, right? And I said, oh man, what did I do this time? You know, it was a fucking circus, man. But you taught us a way to bypass that with the multi-channel recording. You know, there's only five of us, and you had 24 tracks on a two-inch tape. You know, I had a wonderful time making that record. I really loved it.

49:56Were you aware of the kind of, I guess, I mean, I don't know how truly precarious it was, but it seemed like you guys were kind of in trouble a bit with the label because of what they felt were perceived lack of sales in the first two. You know, I think David Bowie kind of pushed Warner Brothers into signing us in the first place because he wanted to then sign us to Bewley Brothers, which was his production company. And we didn't do that because it was like a bad – it was a terrible deal his lawyer was giving us. It was like we were going to give away like 50 percent of everything that we'd ever done to this.

50:34And I was like, well, no, that's not going to work. But he kind of got them to sign us. And then the first couple albums came out. And although we'd been on Saturday Night Live, it was only college stations that were playing our music in the US. In Europe, it was different. Before we even had our first album out, off of our demos, we had four different songs go into the top 10, three of them number one in different countries in Europe. But that meant nothing in the US, because U.S. was the behemoth giant monster for record sales. And Europe was just tiny compared to that. So they were just hoping that something would happen with the records.

51:19And it took the third album for something to get on the radio in the U.S. Did you feel the pressure or did you care? Did you not care that pressure was coming from the label? Yes and no. I had to try to not care about it because for me, I was just thinking, you know what? I'm living such an amazing life right now that I get to write music and put it on a record and go out and play places. I just felt blessed that I was in the position I was in. Yeah. I know with Stevie, there were a lot of interesting interactions with the label, with Motown that you had stepping into this situation. Well, he was feeding Motown, you know, because everybody, if he had a hit song, that made a difference, you know, for everybody that worked at the record company.

52:06Devo was just so far down the chain that, you know, we were, nobody cared about us. I don't know. You guys cut a mighty bow wave and look how your stuff has lasted and how you're still here and still on stage. I think that's absolutely remarkable. And I really support you for that. I think that you are really a social mover, and you've brought a lot to music and to people, and all I want to do is see it continue to happen. Ah, thanks. And I absolutely loved writing your book. It was strange. Shaping sounds. I really was shaping sounds. I just felt that I was doing something that was important.

52:48I have to, I really have to say it's important. And what I'm really enjoying now is giving it away. And actually, the stories maybe change people's thinking about the creative act. I'm writing about perception and hearing right now. I'm going to write a book about it. And it's amazing what goes in those little holes in the sides of our head and what's really going in there and how it affects our brains. We've had music since the cave times. I'm just eager to see where it's going to go next and I know that I'm sort of one of the senior guys now I'm not 20 years old anymore although I feel I am in my head until I try to stand up then I really realize I'm 85 and not 19 but I'm still a boy in my brain so are you yes there's a part of us that that defies the downward spiral of the aging process, the humiliation of getting older.

53:53You still feel immortal at your age, I'm sure. Sort of, sort of, not quite. I still think I'm 21 and I wake up and I realize I'm... Well, keep that thought in your head. Well, you know, but then I get my older daughter. I'm like, my daughters are closer to 21 than I am. That's a little. We're kind of grousing a little bit about AI here, But at the same time, we're hoping it makes us 21 again, aren't we? Absolutely. I'm ready for that. I'd try it out again. Mark is doing something really interesting right now. It defies explanation. But the last time I was in this room, there were foghorns, air horns, compressors, all kinds of things, making pneumatic music with bellows, electric bellows, like from a player piano that would power up all that stuff.

54:38And he was making music with instruments that were totally foreign to what you would consider a musical instrument. It was a whole new acoustical kind of living creature. I really had wanted to go out there to see him do it, but he's going to some really exciting and different places now because he has the liberty to do it. Yeah. And I think that that is a great gift that he's earned to be able to do that kind of stuff. and I admire it. I really do. I want to play in that sandbox. I want to bring my bucket and shovel my bib overalls and get down and do some stuff. Well, careful what you say. I'm ready, boy.

55:21I like this stuff. After this last break, we'll be back with more from Robert and Mark.

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57:43Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. I'm thinking about the work you guys did. The fact that you guys did Whip It, you know, that you were able to create a signature song for the band. You know, I mean, I don't, I'm sure you guys didn't think it was going to be the hit it was when you created it, right? I don't know what we thought it was when we created it. It was kind of like the lyrics were kind of directed towards Jimmy Carter, but they were also kind of in a Thomas Pynchon style.

58:16I don't know if you ever read Gravity's Rainbow, but you have this really complicated story going on, and then all of a sudden somebody will look out a window and they'll watch some little kids playing on the street and they're just singing a nursery song that goes on for a couple pages in Gravity's Rainbow. Then it goes back into this really intense story. And we kind of liked that. I think that's what we were thinking about at the time was something like that. And we didn't really think it would be a hit song. We thought, matter of fact, Warner Brothers thought Girl You Want was going to be the song that would get on the radio.

58:53And they put that out first. And then it was somebody that programmed discos in Florida that heard Whip It and thought, oh, that would sound good on a dance floor. And they started adding it, and everybody picked it up, and then it happened that way. It had the energy. Yeah, it had the right energy. But for me, when we first came out here, before we came out to California, and we were first just pure artists creating ideas and music, I was imagining something, because I was so into the 20s, 1920s, 1930s in Europe, we were thinking, oh, we're going to have like a cabaret or we're going to have a club that we play at and it'll be theatrical and it'll be, you know, this extreme music.

59:40Three-penny opera. Yeah, and we thought of what we were doing as much more extreme, but then when we started playing places, and we used to sound a lot more like Captain Beefheart meets an Italian sci-fi movie. and in Ohio at that time period in the early 70s, people were just like they were coming out of factories and they wanted to go to a bar, have a drink, and listen to the music that they heard on the radio live and they didn't want to hear new music and they didn't want to hear political music and they didn't want to hear weirdo music or things like Jocko Homo or Mongoloid. They didn't want to hear that stuff and so we were thinking, well, what are we going to do?

1:00:25And we thought subversion was the way to get in. And we thought, yeah, we have to do it like Madison Avenue does it, where they trick people into eating things and buying cars that are terrible and wearing clothes that look stupid and then people feeling proud of it. We thought, well, we'll use their techniques, but we'll just have a better product that we're selling. And so we were looking for what would be our song that would lure people in. And Whip It was exactly that because people would buy the album and then they'd hear the song Freedom of Choice is what you've got. Freedom from choice is what you want.

1:01:02And then they'd go, what does that mean? You know, and so it was it was the song that that got people to listen to us that otherwise would have just gone no. I imagine, though, having a hit like that must have been exciting for not only because it seems almost impossible to get something a hit of that magnitude, but it also seems like it could be a bit, a little stifling. Well, you know, what happens then is then when you do your next album, a record company that had totally just, were just waiting for you to use up your five album deal and get lost, all of a sudden they were like sticking their heads in the door going, hey, how's it going?

1:01:43Yeah, whatever you do. The leather jackets, as I call them. Yeah, they go, just make sure you do another Whippet. And we'd be like, okay, well, we don't even know how we did that one. So don't, you know, it was just kind of, it was just kind of accidental anyhow. Yeah, that was an interesting record. I remember recording the whip crack in the hall. Howard Siegel, God bless him, he's gone now. But we were working together. He was my engineering partner and he'd be running up and down the hall at the record plant. We had this big long hallway between the studios and the canteen and stuff. And we had microphones down at the end of the hall.

1:02:20and I think you and Jerry were cracking the whip. I said, let me try it, and I cracked it and cracked myself in the face. I sort of gave up, but, you know, we weren't making, there was no such thing as sampling or crack this whip or let's do whip crack from this library or that lot. We had to do everything ourselves, and then we had to fly everything in because there's no stores, there's no digital anything. Right. Right? So I remember us flying all those whip cracks in and then overdubbing stuff on top of it, and doing it was like a crazy bunch of alchemists. Yeah. We were completely nuts. We were one step ahead of the digital sampling where you could do something like that and then have it on a key and play it later.

1:03:05Right. So that came a few years later. So you guys actually had to crack a... Yeah, we had to crack the whip, yeah. We had a real whip. But that record... We had to take turns whipping each other. It was awful. You know, it's like... Yeah, chasing each other around in the parking lot with the bullwhip. Yeah. You know, the things that really are worthwhile stick out. And when you think about freedom of choice in general, that record really has lasted. We're in an interesting time, Bob. It's like, you know, it's like kids now, they have these phones where they go, okay, I like this band. Who influenced them?

1:03:40And then they go, oh, Nirvana. And then they check out Nirvana. And then they go, well, who influenced them? And they go, oh, they did covers of Devo songs and they were big fans of Devo. And so then when they come to our shows, they know the lyrics. It's like I got kids out there that are singing along with me. And it's kind of an interesting time. What about the music videos? Was there any at any point when you guys were making the album, did you guys ever talk about how you wanted to present things visually? Always. Oftentimes, we had an idea. We would have an idea for something in a film. And then we'd say, well, let's write a song so we can do that.

1:04:16Whippet was almost kind of like that because we'd found some magazine that had some guy that was doing a whip tease. And he was like, he was from Las Vegas and he would whip pieces of the clothes of his wife off. And we were like, what the hell is that? You know, we thought that was kind of, but that got us thinking about Whippet, whipping it. Mark is a fine artist as well as being a musician and a highly accomplished fine artist, I might add. But I think that we saw that, see that energy. And also Jerry, also a filmmaker, as well as being a musician. I think we see a lot of that kind of energy in their work.

1:04:56And it's always been, Devo has always been a visual band. Which would have been really appealing to you, I imagine, too. It would have been one of the things that really drew you to them, right? Yeah, well, I come from photography as well. Right, you were doing films like with Edie. Edie Sedgwick. Yeah. Chow Manhattan. Yeah. You were doing like... It was a psychedelic time, you know. And the studio, the record plant, was just an amazing place to work. It was really a fantasy of Gary Kellgren's, who just passed away, who sort of wrote the story of the record plant, which was a psychedelic adventure par excellence.

1:05:33And inside that psychedelic space, and the place was organic and free, and once you got past the locked front door, you were in your own space. You could be who you were. Musicians just used to come down there at night, even if they weren't recording at that time, just to spend some time in the canteen and play with the pinball machine or stop into someone's session. It was a very closed and very safe place to work, and the boys could really be themselves there. And it wasn't a bunch of guys running around with short-sleeved white shirts with pencil protectors. I mean, we were all there. There was a jacuzzi.

1:06:11People were easy. The pinball machines were running. Stevie was learning how to play air hockey, and everybody said, oh, man, he's playing air hockey. Is he really blind? You know, because he could hear the puck moving on the table. Wow, that's amazing. And he, you know, the place was just super permissive and very, there were no sharp edges at the record plant in any way. And I think it really stoked the boys' creativity. I think the studio itself was a musical instrument inhabited by many musicians at the same time. People used to walk into each other's sessions and feel perfectly free to be who they were.

1:06:52We shared our room with, we used the room at night when it was cheaper, but during the day, little Richard had our room, and so we'd show up and he'd be leaving, and he always had good stories like, well, you know who ripped me off, you know, blah, blah, blah. He was like really funny to listen to, but it was good energy, you know, to share a room with him. Did you ever hear what he was doing in there? Yeah. We heard his music, yeah. What was he up to at that time? I'll tell you something. Those are days that will never be repeated. Yeah, yeah. Boy, were they something else, I'll tell you. But here we are.

1:07:30Hold on. I don't want to gloss over Little. Wait, you're sharing a room with Little, Richard. That is insanity. To me, I got to be phone friends with Little Richard right before he died. Oh, okay. That's amazing. Just talking to him on the phone was bizarre enough because he would just refer to himself as Mr. Peniman and would refer to Little Richard as a separate entity. Oh, that's pretty good. Yeah, I could see that. Well, Little Richard's not... He had an incredible... Well, you know... You wouldn't call him Little. Hey, Little, how you doing? Oh, Mr. Peniman. Mr. Peniman. Yeah, yeah. Who were some of the other great characters that came through there while you were there?

1:08:05Oh, everybody. Everybody. All the eagles came through there. The Hotel California has written about the record plant. That is the Hotel California. Wow. Yeah, I used to call them the beagles and they'd get all upset with me. That was very sacrilegious. It was a wild time. A lot of different times. I remember when we were recording, she's just a girl. The girl you want. Mark, she's just a girl. Yeah, she's just a girl. Right. Mark, she's just a girl. Yeah. She tricked a girl, right? You would always swallow the ST of just. I think we did it a hundred times. Well, thanks for making the record, guys, and thanks for spending time to talk about it and write about it.

1:08:51Yeah, well, it's done now. It's over the edge. It's really good. It's really good. I can't wait to hear it. Yeah, that's what I want. It's like the book's great. I can't wait to hear it. Maybe we'll write a score to go behind it. How long is the book? The book is about 10 hours. 10 hours? We could do it. Wow. We'll score it. We'll score it. That'd be amazing. I would love to make another Devo kind of whip it with you guys. Oh, you know. You never know. Just whip one record up. Who knows? Don't say no. All I know is this. Don't say no. That our friendship has lasted a long time, and that's for the great reason.

1:09:29And I'm just glad it has. If you enjoyed that conversation, be sure to check out Robert Margalev's new audiobook, Shaping Sounds, Stevie Wonder, Devo, The Synth Revolution, and My Life Behind Music. Use code SOUNDS25, that's all capital S-O-U-N-D-S-2-5, at pushkin.fm slash shaping sounds to save 25 % on the audiobook. Be sure to check out youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast to see our video interviews. and be sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record pod. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tallade.

1:10:09Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.

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