Ron Carter/Don Was

30:25You know? So there's a lot of work There's a lot of work to be done. And my footnote to this kind of conversation, it always kind of ends up there because they think I just know about Miles. And my life started in 1963 to 68 and a half. No, I just said, I'm experienced. I'm living that life, you know. you know and one of the things that keeps this fire blue you know when I say Alien Torch the hottest fire is not the flame it's this blue thing one of the kind of things that keeps my fire that color are situations like when I was doing commercial work in New York the orchestra's doing stuff big scores in New York you know?

31:25There was a section, a base section of anywhere from four to five players. And I was known as the hot jazz player in town, so they wanted to know what I'm doing there. So the game was, guys, that everyone who was not specifically assigned their first chair, they got there earlier so they could be the first chair. That meant you got the best money, highest pay you got a little more respect from the orchestra because you're the first chair violinist or bass player whatever it was you got a chance to make the bowing the fingering that was all on you and the remaining four or five people in the section their job was to say yes yes yes yes you know and because I was either number four or five on the list of important players you know I didn't feel that they thought I belonged there because I just finished playing a set with Miles Davis last night or Randy Weston or Herbie Mann, whoever the gig was for that week.

32:30So one day I had enough. The sessions were like 9 to 1 and 2 to 5. And you come back and you do the lunch. I said, okay, guys, I got this. I'm telling me. So we took a break at 1 o 'clock, and I know that about 12, 30, 1 o 'clock, they're going to start filtering in for the next time. I'll get there before these bass players get there. Now, while I hadn't been in an orchestra seriously for like three or four years, I never forgot the library. And I knew all the things that bass players had to audition to be accepted. I knew that stuff, man. I just didn't put in the trash can. It's still a part of my DNA, you know.

33:16So what I decided to do was just give them a lesson and what my capacity was and my experience. So I just sat in the last chair because that was my seat at the film. And I played three or four orchestral excerpts through the keys. That was my statement.

33:38And somebody said, hey, where you going? I said, I got a gig night at Berlin tonight. I can't stay here. That's the footnote to this kind of conversation. So, yes, I'm still affected by that. You can't let that go. If you let it go, it continues somewhere else and someone who can't handle it. And I hate to thank guys of how much talent that's not available to a public of listening music because they're part of the minority string section, string player. again the pictures are slowly having a little more representative of a broader musical ability of players in minority community who deserve to be in these chairs like these other guys and gals are gal singular you know but I think this blue part of the ascending torch I think is necessary for me I enjoy the memories.

34:44And I don't regret not being able to have those memories live. My view is that if they wanted to hire me and I passed the auditions, they couldn't afford me. I mean, they could not afford what I get. I'm bringing a whole other vibe to this orchestra and what they stand for. I'm more famous than the conductor. What does that cost?

35:16We'll be right back with more from Ron Carter after the break.

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38:19Open your free iHeart app, search Health Discovered and start listening. We're back with more from Ron Carter, Don Was, and me. How do you, the blue flame that keeps you. That's from in here. How do you keep that burning without burning yourself? That's probably my DNA. That helps me keep a balance. You know, balance meaning there's always someone out there, some young kid, male or female, of color, who was going through what I went through 60 years ago. And if they do any homework and do any research because it's not so available to them, you'll see that here's some person who went through this kind of experience that I'm going through 60 years later.

39:17He found somewhere else for his talent. It doesn't mean that they can be a good jazz player. I mean, they may turn out to be a better writer or put their skills into being a composer or a better teacher. It just lets them know that there's still a way to be involved in a community of some kind, even though it's not the one that you initially chose. and someone else made that choice kind of for you. They threw you into another train track. That's okay. Did it feel like a... Did jazz playing, the gigging you were doing and eventually, I mean, you know, did that ever feel like a consolation early on?

40:04No. It felt like this is what I'm supposed to be. No, I never took it as a great second choice. I'm saying, those guys missed it. Yeah. You felt a natural affinity for it. Certain parts, yes, but I understood to do what I was doing, they required another kind of level of work and commitment. It's one thing to understand what the right note could be. It's another thing to have the patience to keep looking for it.

40:36Did you listen to other styles of music, like when you were a kid? Did you listen to CKLW? Probably, but at the time, church was still very important in my family's, in my community's life. So I knew all the church songs, all the words. At the time, my conversation didn't involve the word changes, but I understood the harmony. It was kind of uncomplicated. And I never went to the rehearsals because I was playing the show and the stuff I was doing. So that kind of music was always in my family and my community. No one said jazz is the devil's music in my house. When they would take the little kids to the Symphony Hall Fisher Theater in Detroit to see the orchestra, they encouraged us, this is what orchestras sound like.

41:32They weren't saying that you can't be in that. but at the time we were 12 or 14 you don't see anybody who looks like you and they're not planting that seed they're just showing you an orchestra you know where you take it from there it's kind of up to you your background your interest your determination you know your skill level wherever it is you know do you want to go through all this what? whatever you know but no I don't think that my career now it's that I never thought of it as a uh uh consolation prize yeah yeah i think of how much those guys missed it yeah yeah when you go back to detroit over the years i mean as your career starting as you're going back late 50s early 60s through the 60s and you're seeing like motown for instance happening in detroit was that i mean were you were you watching that at all and interested not at all not at all uh at detroit i I wasn't a jazz player.

42:34And so when I would go back for some of the vacations, I would never go to the jazz clubs. I had a job. One summer I spent as a park racing director. My job was to go to the parks at APARC, at seven o 'clock, eight o 'clock, take out all the gear, the baseball bat, the tub, the gloves, all that stuff, and monitor the kids' behavior from nine o 'clock to three o 'clock. When that time came up, put stuff away and do it again tomorrow. So I kept my health together. I kept my physical skill together. I was older than most of the kids, so that was really the old man who was controlling the badminton set.

43:14The guy who made us pick up the bases after the softball game. I was okay with that because that's what I was. I just wanted to be better than they were at it. Did you bump into James Jameson? None of those guys, man. I didn't know any of those people. No. What about people you went to high school with, like Alice Coltrane or Donald Byrd? I didn't know her. Ira Jackson, a saxophone player. I stopped playing after a while. Kirk Leitze was my classmate. He used to do his homework, doing homework. Wow.

43:50My classmates at Cass, they were all classical players, like I was. Someone went on to major orchestras and conductors of major orchestras. A couple of them went to, were in the Washington, in the DC Symphony. A couple of them were in the major orchestra scattered throughout the world. I was the only one of my class who went to jazz to this level, whatever level that is. But I kind of lost track of those guys. None of them did this for a living. And you didn't know Paul Chambers? My father knew his father, Like they were both bus drivers. And I did meet Paul in New York officially, but we never hung out because I had a family.

44:38He had a family. He would travel with Miles all the time. I came to New York. I was still a student in Manhattan for a master's. I did do gigs, but I was not where he was in the spectrum of the jazz community.

44:54Having met Sam Jones in Rochester, I came to New York, and at some point, A year or so later, Sam was working with Monk. And at some point he got sick, and he called me, could I make this gig for him? I said, with Monk? He said, yeah, you can do that. So I said, okay. So I got my bass in a cab, in the subway, and went down to a place called Circle in the Square, which is a block from the Village Gate. It's a nice small theater. And I met Mr. Monk, and Mr. Monk, Sam Jones, is sick, and he called me to sub for him. he said okay do you know my songs i said most of them he said well tonight we'll find out which ones you don't know and he was okay so we did next week in philadelphia for a week so we get in this get in barons's car it's 5 30 drive to drive to uh the peps the show place in philadelphia do two sets get in her car and drive back to new york because i had a class in manhattan at eight o 'clock in the morning.

45:55Did that for a week. For the show on Saturday. Another bass, a bass player that you seem to have an interesting relationship with early on was George de Vivier. Yes. I saw George working with Chico Hamlin and I don't know the drummer, but the singer was Lena Horne. Wow. And George had yellow tinted sunglasses. not only did he play it great he looked different and ultimately we became really good friends really close friends when he got sick I was by his side you know he had a club called the Bass Fiddle up on St. Nicholas and about 134th Street and I would go by after the gigs to talk with him to my music and he had a jukebox that had all the jazz records on it he would play one He said, oh, young fellow, how do you do that?

46:52I said, Mr. He said, no, no, no, George. George, I just hear what I do and try to find out how to make it work tomorrow night. He just loved that kind of stuff. I was with him on his bad days, his health days, you know. And one of his last earthly beings was Mona Hinton. And Milt were very great friends of his. And somehow he had gotten really sick at his home uptown. and they couldn't get a cab, they couldn't get anybody to come pick him up and take him to the hospital. So Mona called me at home, said, can you come to where we are uptown to George's house, the apartment where it was, and take George to the hospital because we can't get a cab.

47:36She said, absolutely. So I got my son in the car, put the back seat down in the little Volvo. We drove uptown to George's house. Ultimately, they found a cab driver who would take him to the hospital. and he didn't survive much past that time. But he was a person whose imagery of the bass was really impactful. This is what the bass can do in a group. And we didn't have a social connection in terms of going by his house for dinner, coming to my house. He was always connected to the bass, how the bass does in a group. The white groups that called him, they needed him there because he was the best at what there was.

48:22He had what they needed. That was a very important thing to see take place given being told that the orchestra was not ready to hire color people yet. And I'm in New York, man, with all these great players coming to New York. I see this guy playing the same bass I'm kind of playing, and he gets these gigs because the white guys know that they need him in the orchestra. and their group. It's quite a... White jazz groups? Jazz combos? Yeah, but white guys were badly, Benny Goodman kind of cats. That spectrum of the music scene, the big-time guys. They called George, they called Milt, because they knew they were bringing something to their band that nobody else could give them.

49:06Yeah.

49:10Left an impression. Got that. We'll be right back with the rest of our conversation with Ron Carter after this last break. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at Oocla Speedtest. And they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged.

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51:37Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com slash sapphirereserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Terms apply. This week on a very special episode of Health Discovered, We're taking a closer look at a condition that affects hundreds of thousands of men each year, prostate cancer. I first found out about my cancer at the age of 45. Anything with cancer, you just think death sentence. In this episode, we'll explore the science behind detection, along with the practical steps men can take to protect their health. Listen to Health Discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

52:19Open your free iHeart app, search Health Discovered, and start listening. We're back with the rest of our conversation with Ron Carter. For listeners who don't really know, when you talk about the role of the bass in a band, I don't know that people really understand everything that a bass can do besides just hold down low end or something like that. Well, you know, I kind of don't mind that. I mean, I go to concerts occasionally, classical concerts, and I've gone as often as I can, and I don't see the audience specifically wondering what kind of bass does a bass player have and what kind of strings is he using and what kind of fingering does he have.

53:09I don't see them doing that, you know? Only the jazz audience is forced to be that kind of research person, 40th person, you need to know what I do. Can you like the results of it? That's all I'm concerned with. Having said that, you can't just accept it as being the way it is. And I try to respond to them in an adult fashion, not sandbox styles. I try to explain to them that, just okay, I'll tell you what you do. You, person, watch the next football game you do. There's a guy who's clearly the quarterback. What he's doing, in his ear, he's got an earpiece that someone upstairs in the thing and the coach are telling him what play to call.

53:55Yeah, and he's doing it on his sleeve. He has the details here, some kind of way. And he's calling the shots. Whatever he does, everybody must buy that because he's just got the word from heaven that this is what it is. He's got Quentin on the stage. the band-a-lead across the tune, and there's no one doing like this. But this guy in his head. Imagine that. I try to have them see that kind of angle. You have all the power. Indeed. And they understand that. They're reigning for guys. By and large, I understand that. Some of them don't. That's okay. What happens when you start going in a certain direction and you feel the other players either don't want to go there?

54:50They don't want to do that. Yeah. I accept that. Maybe they want me to play two beats all night. I do a footnote to this answer. I was doing a date with a singer at some point, and the process was they would have an arranger come in from California make some sketches for the arrangement. And the singer would come in and rhythm section, they'd make this track with him singing, and the arrangement would take those tracks back out to California and fill it in with orchestra stuff, you know. Well, I joined this specific date, and the rhythm section I was with was really a bunch of good guys in New York.

55:30That's always the case. And we communally had decided that these changes were kind of stiff, And we didn't want to do that for six hours. Our job was kind of making hip for us, because we got to play this stuff, you know. We'd do four or five tunes, and the date is like two days, Monday and Wednesday, Tuesday, you know. So the second day we'd come in, and the arranger calls me over. He said, hey, hey, don't you have a seat? I said, I'm feeling pretty good. Now I'm going to talk to you. He said, you know, I like the way you play. That's why you're here. But I like my bass lines that I wrote. I said, well, so I'm going to do the songs again.

56:11I said, I'll tell you what. I'll play your shit until you can't stand it. And then you tell me I'm free. So we did two or three songs. We said, free. And we became dear friends. I mean, really dear friends. Yeah, to this day. Who's that? I'm not going to tell you. But my point was I play what they want. And I have to trust that their judgment that maybe I have a better idea to do it than they have. What about the times you're not so sure? I read or heard or read somewhere, I can't remember now where I saw this or read it, where you said the first time you played with Herbie that he was playing chords, you weren't quite sure what they were.

56:55And so then you weren't quite sure what you should be doing exactly. Just early on. And I'm not sure that's quite an exact translation. I think what I might have kind of conveyed to the questionnaire was I know what he's doing, but I couldn't figure out the best note to make that work. And I didn't understand that he trusted me that much that he would go with my way. Because he didn't know where I was going other than there wasn't what his way was. And at some point, without discussion, the rehearsal, we decided, it was decided that my way wasn't a bad way. and it could work for everybody. So there was some conversation and dialogue.

57:39In general, but not what people would think. We didn't sit down with a blackboard and listen to ultimate takes and figure out. We had a life. When the gig was over, man, Herbie had just got married. He got a big record. Tony was living upstairs. Somebody had Miles' house. I had a new family. I was going home. I was doing other stuff other than Miles' band. there wasn't that kind of necessary additional time to feel that the band could do something that's really great, something really nice. Ultimately, it was a little past nice, but we didn't understand, I didn't understand the ramifications of what we were doing as we speak.

58:19But again, our relationship was based on being wowed by four other guys night in and night out. Yeah. There was a compilation put out kind of recently, a handful of years ago, maybe five years ago, called like Bootleg Five. It was a Miles Davis re-release. And it has a bunch of session, it has a bunch of recordings of you guys talking in between. In the studio. Yeah, in the studio. Freedom Jazz Dance. Freedom Jazz Dance, Bootleg No. 5. And you can tell listening to it that you guys weren't 100 % aware of what you were contributing to the world of music because it was all very casual. Well, I think what I hope that people would understand from that particular set of records, discs, is that while Miles was the band leader, he was not leading the band.

59:17He took information from everybody. He said, what about this? Or don't do that. He was open to any suggestions we thought that would make not just the music different, but absolve him from the responsibility of making everything happen. Not that he couldn't, not that he didn't, but with this select bunch of four other guys, they relieved him of that sole responsibility of being not just a band leader, but leading the band. It's like a good basketball team. The man was leading him. And he understood that all you got to do, man, is be able to hit a set shot. You stand over there. It's coming your way.

1:00:01And Tio, too, here in, it seemed like, Tio Macero, who produced it. He was involved quite a bit, too. He was kind of controlling some of the stuff.

1:00:15budget. He knew how much time they had. He wanted to make sure that everyone got back on time from going out to get a drink or going out to get lunch. He was kind of the guy with the card that goes into the time machine. What do you call that thing? Punch the card. Punch the card, yeah. Yeah. And he was the guy who organized the dates, booked the studio time, was there for the mixing. He did all that kind of stuff. He was a good composer. I think we played a good saxophone at one time. And I was on one of his projects. I had fun. Yeah. seeing how he was the leader for a change, because he wasn't a leader with Miles' band.

1:00:54He was the guy who was part of the process. Now, he's the guy who's dictating the tune, the tempo, the key, all that stuff. It's interesting to see him no longer be the guy hiding behind the curtain of the glass. Now, he's on the other side, you know? And he understood a whole other level of what it takes to make that happen. I appreciated that. Yeah. ESP was produced by Irving Townsend, right? Did Miles have a falling out with children? I have no idea. I never knew those details. And I didn't really care to know them. And it isn't that I didn't care. I was more concerned with, I think, guys, can the band hear where I'm going sooner?

1:01:44Mm-hmm. and then can I remember a nice thing I did on the first set to do it for the third set tomorrow night and see how many guys pick up on it. And to that end, I have a book come out of the publishing company called Chartography. And this book is written at scores. What we have done is transcribe five different performances of the same song with the same band. It's a perfect laboratory. So cool. And it transcribes my basic line for two and a half choruses, how it changes for these five performances, but how the band adjusts to what I'm playing. And that's what we did live every night, man.

1:02:33Because it's not just a static bass line. No. Every night is something new based on this process, based on this germ. you know every night we water it yeah how how do you clear your mind of so that you're not repeating what you did the night before but but moving it forward what i'll tell you something happened to me recently i played a gig in detroit a couple weeks ago and it was good to see all these folks people i went to elementary school with came they were all there before the show yeah yeah and then we went out to play and i and i realized i'm completely unprepared to play this show. And it took me 15 minutes to get in a proper headspace to just be inventive and to let go.

1:03:21I'm curious about the balance of, again, like following that seed you're talking about planting, but also being spontaneous. One of the things that I try to do, Don, is kind of have a line between them them and me and just me. You know, we've had times, they've been, stuff's going on right now. It's difficult to turn off the news and go to work because the news is so emotion consuming, man. You know, and I say that because I feel like I'm getting like this right now, just thinking about trouble, the trouble, the difficult times we're in. And I know I've got to go play the trio next week with Emmett Cohen.

1:04:11I've got to put these feelings aside long enough to do what Emmett hopes I can do for the band. And my devices, guys, it changes from how swept up I allow me to get in this over here. There have been times when this part has been so emotional for me that it bleeds over into the first set of who I'm working with. Most of the groups I work with can understand that issue because they have it also. And they would like to think that the band over here, they're strong enough in their personal beliefs or their thing to kind of let this not be so important to their performance here, but still color it because it's part of the emotional life they're living.

1:05:03I did a record called When Skies Are Gray. It's got my first Latin jazz record. It bit really well. It's a nice record. Harvey Mason, Steve Kroon, and Stephen Scott on a Monday. The Sunday before, I had done a memorial for my late wife. And these guys understood literally where I was coming from.

1:05:28And to say they had my back is kind of crude. crude. And it wasn't that they had my back. They just had my sensitivity level tuned up so high that they trusted my choice. If they would want to argue, they'd say, now's not the right time. Got to trust this guy because he's hearing some stuff over here. They helped me maintain a separation of this event and this performance. your friends out there they don't understand how they have impacted your choices over here only you understand that you plural have to understand that they don't know the difference they don't know you have choices they just know you're there they'll accept by and large what you give them because they expect you to give them a good menu Your job is to pick the menu and what things you want to really serve them that you're really comfortable with, given their taste are not sophisticated.

1:06:38I mean, you don't give them a test that's over there. Did you hear me do this? No. You want to have them leave this gig. They heard our friend Don that I hadn't heard in a very long time. He sounded wonderful. Your job is to give them the right things from this menu. So you've got to turn this off. turn this down long enough to be able to fulfill your responsibility to them also these guys

1:07:06it is not it is not it is not an easy thing to do you know and to know that we're confronted with these two emotions daily it's something that we all quietly fight we all quietly try to find a balance Now somehow we musicians don't really discuss this kind of process that we use because we have an image of ourselves being kind of above the fray. You know, you feel down, let's play the blues, whatever things we're kind of given more credit than is due. I mean, we're pulling out an instant about these doldrums. You know, I mean, we love the imagery of being a guy who does this. you know and the fact that the band is doing this because they're following your lead you gotta accept that responsibility and take care of it man yeah do you have rituals i try to have quiet before i go to work yeah um my my tech guy didn't understand that at first you know we would drive and he picks me up you know drive turn the music turn the music off man you know no no no i just need to clear my head from these things that are in a way I don't listen to music before I come to the world.

1:08:24I drive to my car, turn the music off. Like a sponge, man. We all are. Everything affects us. I try to limit those affecting events as much as I can. To wit, no music in the car. Don't talk to me. Talk to me after the set. Because I'm still hearing what I'm trying to do for this next hour and a half. And make some strange looks occasionally. And then some people get offended. And I'm sorry that they feel that way, but it's much better to feel that way now than feel that way this way, cause I didn't do my job. Yeah, exactly. Do you find by taking that much time to sort of, before you go to work to clear your head and kind of adjust your intent, so to speak, but does that create any anxiety as well?

1:09:14Like does it, no? I'm there cause I belong there. any anxiety I may have maybe that someone touched the bass while I wasn't there someone fooled the knobs physical things that I can't control and I accept you know what cracks me up man is when we were at this club called Sweet Basil 7th Avenue down there the way we were set up the audience had to walk by the bandstand to get to the restroom. And invariably on the animation, someone would walk by, go into the bathroom, and hit the cymbals. Or do like the only piano. They had to see what, they had to be a part of the thing, man. You know? And you're not a part of this.

1:10:09You're a part of this. That part of the equation. Yeah, yeah. You're the guy who draws the line, you know? Yeah. You mentioned like physical distractions. Do you ever find, you've been playing the same bass for decades, right? 60 years. Does it feel different, like another instrument some nights? Yes. What is that? Well, you know, the bass is a box, a wooden box that's held together, that's separated by a stick. It's called a sound post. And what that sound post, it would do like this, just because of pressure of the strings. Yeah. It also affects the weather. It affects the bass's expanding contraction.

1:10:53A small degree, but you feel the strings got off, so they get tighter. There are certain gigs that I don't do

1:11:04because the bass is laying down for an hour between sets in a window, and the window is kind of cold air. So I pick up the bass. The bass is literally freezing. And now as I turn the heat on, now the bass, which got this way because there's been cold air, now goes like this. And my hands know difference right away. I said, oh man, I've got to play harder because the strings are so tight now because of this. My body's warm. The lights are on. All these factors change the instrument's physical response because it's going like this ever so slightly. and as they do this the strings go higher as well they stand there but the strings are moving just because this activity is going on you know and it's always we go from the parking lot to the bandstand there's no chance to get warmed up so to speak the bass has been walked into four blocks in the rain going to the gig literally to the bandstand but that's kind of the physical thing we're looking in every night.

1:12:15And I think the most we can do is to be aware of there are certain things we can't control. We've got to be aware of that it's happening now. We can't say, I didn't know what happened. How can you not know, man? You just walk four blocks in the rain, there was snow, the base is cold, the heat's on on the bandstand. How could you not know that's going to affect this box some kind of way? I think if they understood that, they would have a less a little lower level of frustration. And they would play differently because they understand they got to get warmed up as the bass does physically as well.

1:12:52When you play in a theater, and especially with modern sound systems where they got subwoofers projecting out the thing and it comes bouncing back at you and the drums come bouncing back at you 30 milliseconds later, how do you deal with that? Well, I try to have a band not rely so singly on the, do you call those things? The monitors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want them to kind of rely on as much as they can on what they hear immediately. And if I can get them to trust the band's sound without this other stuff, this delay of the beat doesn't take them so far out, so to speak. When you have your own monitors, guys, I think each guy wants his loud like it's just them.

1:13:43Bring him on hard. Practice.

1:13:49More piano. Soft pedal. That. Let's shift up for one second. You mentioned Tao Macero. You've worked with all the great producers, the legendary producers. Creed Taylor. You worked with Bob Thiel, Alfred Lyon. And I'm wondering, you know, from a Blue Note perspective, certainly, what made Alfred's records different? You happen to be on the best records that I think are in our catalog from Speak No Evil and Maiden Voyage and stuff with Bobby Hutcherson, Real McCoy, all the things you did with McCoy. The players changed, but you're on all of the best records. I think that's a strong testimony. What was it like working with Alfred as opposed to other producers?

1:14:41Alfred understood just the feeling. He would say, it's got this thing, it's got this thing. He understood that emotion. He didn't know anything else but anything else. He didn't know notes. He couldn't read a note if it hit him in the head on the subway. But he knew that this thing that didn't have the element, he recognized. and the band who understood how little Alfred knew about music, he understood this primal, is that a good word? This primal instinct of swing. And when he said that, the band just stopped in their heads denigrating this guy and understood that he was telling them that this stuff is not happening because he can't feel it and that's all he has to tell them and that was important to the bands.

1:15:35All of those guys, man. All of them would say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. The fact that when he said that, they understood his limitations were telling them that wherever they were, it was the wrong place for this. Because he wasn't intrusive then. Quite the opposite. He made sure we had lunch before. He made sure that the physical details and maybe rehearsal. Sometimes there was none.

1:16:06His ability to put together the best set of guys was a whole different kind of skill that most producers don't have for whatever reason. My favorite player, but does he sound good with this guy? Or who's going to pull this date together? Who can we trust to be the linchpin? Who's going to... He had that sense of combinations that a lot of producers don't happen to have for another set of reasons. He's a casting director. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's a big skill. Which producers do you think were the best that you worked with? Almost too many to name because you never know who they are until it's all over.

1:16:49Yeah. And unless I hear the final product, I don't have had a chance to track down most of those things. I don't know who did their job better than somebody else did. That's the question right now. Yeah. I just think that they would call me for their projects. They thought I could be a guy who could help them do something that they thought they wanted. And I admire them having heard enough music to make that kind of choice. Duke Pearson was another person who was important at Blue Note and was a player, but also in main records. He also played trumpet, man. Yeah, great player, but also produced records, too.

1:17:27How was he as a... He's a player who knew how to produce. not the producer who played a little bit. That's not that different. Yeah. And he played good too, by the way. My footnote to that story is that Oren was trying to get him to make, he wanted to make one more record. He moved on to Atlanta and all that kind of stuff.

1:17:50And I was working in California, and I ended up out in Berkeley, which is where the Fantasy Studio was. A nice studio, man. And a good engineer, a gym star. and somehow Duke was ailing but I didn't understand that and I think Orrin didn't understand it either because no one really said why he was ailing, what it was and it didn't come out so much later anyway Duke finally got to California for this recording session with me and him because Duke had started a lot of duels in New York when he was in New York Bradleys, the Lion's Hair whatever they were he had them hire me and him to do a duo thing Riley's Nigger Barker anyway when Duke finally got out to California to make this record we were I was working at night maybe my band but I was free during the day so we spent two or three days all day hoping Duke would feel better enough to complete a tune or something I'm not sure what happened to our efforts ultimately he passed away from multiple sclerosis we understood but But no one nailed that as the cause of him having the physical difficulties he was experiencing.

1:19:06And maybe I'm just repeating the rumor I heard, I'm not sure. But ultimately, he couldn't finish it because he was in so much discomfort. But boy, what a... You know, even the names of the people who I knew who were no longer, I call them left the concert. And I look around, man, and I'm one of the last guys standing. and I just get chills thinking that I can't count on those guys to be there wherever there is. I can't count on those guys to call them up and say happy birthday. Or I can't count on those guys to say, man, will you stop that? Get out of here. Come on. As I've been known to say to guys who are getting in my nerve, my last nerve, as a matter of fact, I miss those guys, man.

1:19:51I miss those guys saying, man, how did you do that? and I can't hear that from those guys. A lot of them. So it causes me to sit back and reflect on longevity. Do you call a lot of your old friends that are still around? Sonny Rollins or Herbie Hancock? Yes. Yeah. I just feel the spirit. Okay. I call those guys, you know. I talk, I call a couple of guys during their birthday and I just play happy birthday for them. and it cracks him up that I would stop. Of course I would stop my day, man. He's not that important in my life. Come on. Here it is. Da-da-da-da. Whatever it is, you know. NG. NG.

1:20:39Let's talk about Wayne for a second. Yeah. One of a kind. Yeah. How do you think about him? How do you think about playing with him and what made him so unique? When I first met Wayne, he was playing with the Man of the Ferguson's band. and his friend's second tenor, I guess, I don't know, doing occasional arrangements, you know. That was my first meeting with him. And also later on, I met his brother Alan, who played a little bit trumpet, you know, one of the avant-garde guys at the time. When I traveled with the VSOP or Miles' band, my job was to do two things. Not let Wayne buy too many books

1:21:20and kind of translate what he said to the interviewer.

1:21:27And Wayne left at both of those jobs. He's going to buy us books, and he's going to see what he's going to say. And he's going to also write what he could write, and that's just a great writer, man.

1:21:42He understood, not that the gods didn't, He understood that the bass sound was important. Not specifically the note choice. But of course that's part of it. Not specifically the rhythm. Or not specifically maintaining the form. He thought for him the sound of the bass was so important that they made the band work for him. if for another reason because of that. The others were important to him. He wrote stuff off them, different kind of changes, different kind of form, different tempo. Of course, they were important to him. But for him, that sound was critical to his being in the band. And critical to his compositions?

1:22:34To Wayne. To Wayne. Two more questions, and I'm getting emotional here, so that's kind of... Okay. All right, well. let's talk about let's talk about Ron Carter Universe which is one of the most remarkable things I've seen online yeah you seen that too? yeah don't ask me how they did it all I can tell you man is that people came by two nights ago we found add 75 more records to the universe wow yeah I'm just stunned. These guys, nice guys, they're kind of like guys who you see them in a pizza shop, just being guys. But to be able to conceive of that and put that in a form that it can be added to as you discover them, it's just mind-boggling, man.

1:23:31People should check it out. It's Ron Carter Universe. If you search for Ron. Ron Carter Universe dot com. Yeah. And in the club, I spelled it for him. R-O-N dot com. Yeah, I started for him, you know. It's just stunning, man. Yeah. I mean, I was going to say it would be great if everybody could do it, but everybody can't do it because you've played on so many records. No one's got that kind of repertoire or discography. But I could spend hours on it. And the more you find, the more other combinations you find to personalities personalities and what record this is on and the dates. And you get 10 seconds on YouTube.

1:24:13But it was just, fortunately, you know, when I talk to guys, I'm standing up. Otherwise, they're so far off my head sitting down. I said, you guys be quiet.

1:24:25And let's also talk about all the books you write. You're a great educator, mentor, figure. Well, you know, I think my age group has a responsibility so that the next generation doesn't realize that these people before them really impacted what they're trying to do now. And I think what I've tried to do with my books, especially to the bass players, is get my head start on what it takes, what tools it takes to do what they think they hear with help from my processes and my books. You know, Don, I've always felt that unless the bass player gets better in the bands, the band really can't cover a lot of different territory because this is the guy who does everything.

1:25:19And I explain to them, and they get stunned. I say, this is the only guy in the band who plays every note. He plays every beat. He plays every form. He plays every groove, wherever it is. he plays every presence and his there-ness for every beat of every song forever horn players play three choruses and they sit down and go to the bar peon players clean their fingernails turn the bass solo drummers always doing this, fixing something this is the only guy who does every note and unless he improves he can't help them grow and most band leaders, most members don't really know how to help him. And they don't know how to tell him what he needs to make him more efficient with them.

1:26:16And it's not just louder, man. What about the note choice? How are you going to mark the form for us? How are you going to get us in tune? You know, and I tell these guys, I said that whenever Miles leaves the stage, He'd come back, put him back in. He had two notes. He said, Ron, sharp or flat? He said, too high, man. Because the horn got cold. You know the deal. Check me out. Because he trusted my sense of, this is a pitch, man. I'm telling Russell, sharp, man. Let's go, man. Because it hurts my hand. I'm trying to find out exactly what the, my bass wants me to play the note in the same place night in and night out.

1:26:57these guys don't allow it to happen if they're playing sharp or flat as they will. Fine. So I think these are some of the bass players' responsibilities once he understands what they are. His job is to go somewhere someone who can help him sharpen these skills that he needs to have to not just be a member of the band but to be an integral part of the band not just saying i'm in the band yeah in the band yeah right the qb yeah on my playlist right here man these are the changes wait guys i'm turning page sorry good one more one more yeah well um two studios there's many great studios but there's two where some of my favorite records have been made.

1:27:54One was Van Gelder's place in New Jersey and the other is Columbia 30th Street Studio. And I've always been fascinated by Columbia 30th Street because I can't go to it. Yes, yeah. It's unfortunate. But one of my favorite studios was Clinton. Yeah. Oh, and then right now it's a flat surface. There's nothing there at all, man. There's a fence around it. It's gone. It's been gone about 10 years. Where is it? 46th Street and 10th Avenue. right across the street was a pottery shop called Muddy Fingers. And down the street was the old folks' home. There's two great, great rooms. And I made some wonderful sounding records.

1:28:36The bass was in charge that day. Wow. And when you get the record right, you own that sucker, man. I have a record called All Alone. That's what it is. It's all alone, just me. and the bass sounded great that day. And Rudy captured the greatness of the sound of the bass. So all my stereo guys wanted to check their gear out. Get this record. This will tell you how low it can sound good. It's just a wonderful sounding disc. And Columbia had that same kind of sound. Webster Hall, another one of my dates with Miles records, it was at Gil Evans. It was a great sounding room just because the air didn't inhibit the bass from vibrating to its optimum.

1:29:26But 30th Street wasn't necessarily available to everyone. No. Always, right? No. So many good records there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It really set the standard, man. Yeah. Fortunately, they've been able to get the historical landmark so that they can't tear it down and put a co-op or a mom-and-pop store there. It did get the historic landmark. It did get that. A lot of work, a lot of paperwork, but they had the wherewithal and never give up to get this sucker done. And I applaud them every hour because Rudy's monument, it's necessary to still be standing. It's not this. It's this. Can you imagine these guys just taking a one-inch master tape and with a razor and cutting it to edit?

1:30:16What kind of skill is that, man? He didn't miss. Yeah. He nailed it at each one, man. I'm telling you. Wow. Yeah. Incredible. Here's a really good... Wherever you are, Rudy, I'll take my hat off for you. Because you earned it, man. Yeah. Thanks so much for doing this, Mr. Carter. Appreciate it. Thank you, my friend. Thank you. Don? Thank you so much. Thank you, my friend. Sure.

1:30:41Thanks so much to Master Ron Carter for opening up to Don and me about his early life in music and some of the friends he made along the way. You can hear our favorite tracks written by or featuring Ron Carter on a playlist at brokenrecordpodcast.com. You can also listen to this interview and other recent episodes at youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast. Go saw some video episodes up there too. Follow us on Instagram at The Broken Record Pod. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Toleday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

1:31:16If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app and on YouTube. By Theme Music, it's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.

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