Santigold

27:43I played hand drums in college. I studied traditional Ghanaian drumming and Haitian and a little Cuban. And I actually gave hand drumming lessons in college. Wow. And that definitely informed my sense of like rhythm and syncopation and stuff like that. Yeah. And then as I got older, I got into, I chose bass over guitar. Now, not to say that I can really play bass, but bass is just easier for me. And I write on instruments, so that's the thing. I can pick up, you know, obviously a keyboard. I can write on guitar. I can write on bass. And I can write drum parts. I can write horn parts. You know what I mean?

28:20I write in my head. I'll wake up with a whole bass line that I can't play and be like, I'll just sing it and be like, play this, you know? And how do you know it's original and it's not something that's like stored in your subconscious? Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I have to ask a whole lot of people, have you heard this before? I remember when I did the song with the Beastie Boys, Don't Play No Game, I swore that was an original. I was like, nobody's heard this before? Nobody's heard it. And everyone's like, no. But sometimes it's just so weird. The place that things come from for me, honestly, a lot of things come in between being awake and asleep.

28:57That's where a lot of my ideas come. I get a lot of visions. I've had prophetic dreams. But a lot of my creative stuff comes between sleep and waking. So do you keep a journal on your bedside table? I don't really keep a journal anymore. It was for about 10 or 15 years, probably from about 15 to 25, that I really kept a journal. And then I think when my life got really busy and I was doing a lot of writing for a career, I stopped. And I miss it, but there's no way now I could keep a journal. But what I do, I mean, I have so much creative writing in my life now that I think that if you listen to any of my albums, they are a journal of exactly what I was going through.

29:43And then in my lyric books, you'll find an occasional poem or occasional journal entry. Or when I was touring, actually, I would try to keep a journal sometimes. Like I remember one time flying from Australia back to the States and there being no television on the airplane. I have no idea why. But I journaled for like 12 hours. I wrote down my entire trip. You know what I mean? Like, so I'll do it in odd moments, but I don't. But if there's something that hits and I know I need to write it down, like I will find a book and write it down. Yeah. It sounds like it's really important. It's like a common thread throughout your life.

30:20Yeah, it is. It is. And also just going back and reading some of my journals from as little, it just, it's interesting on how it helps form the way that I think about things or the way that I talk about things or the way I kind of mull over ideas. And I'm so detailed and like, it's great that I could talk to myself in that way, you know? Yeah. So when you were starting to get into music and starting, you know, like taking your guitar lessons, were your parents supportive of that? Yeah, they didn't care much about my guitar lessons. And actually they helped me like, I got an SP-1200 when I was about 15 and they let me get that and they my dad was super into music like he's the one who got me into music he had the best music collection and encouraged us to collect music very early my sister had an amazing record collection by the time she was 14 which was great because it's my dad had like every black music ever made and from like whether it's jamaican african american like he had everything but my sister took it further and she had like rock and punk and fun boy three and suzanne vega and like you know just like weird stuff that my dad never would have listened to the smiths and you know stuff like that so i got all this amazing music education before i was even 11 years old and then my sister older sister yeah she's like three years older than me and she was going to bad brain shows when i was 12 and coming back dripping and i was like who are they you know what you know what is this and i listen and so i just they really taught me about music and my dad took us to see shows like he took me to see james brown i was too young i don't even remember but i just i know the story that i said dad what's wrong with his leg and he said he got soul i know that like that's the story that's the only this is a two-line story um i went to see fela kuti with him when i was seven i he took me to see nina simone wow and so that exposure and he used to take us to record stores every Saturday and we could choose a record.

32:22He taught me to buy music and to study music kind of, you know? And so he was always supportive until, well, and also he was good friends with Kenny Gamble from Gamble and Huff from Philly Sound. And so I interned with Kenny when I was 16 and, you know, got to know Kenny. And then my dad's like, my dad would have never encouraged me to be a singer. Cause I remember one time I was like, dad, and I never wanted to be a singer. I had a solo when I was 15. It was a disaster. It was a disaster to me. My mom recently told me that it wasn't a disaster. Like last week, she told me it wasn't a disaster.

32:55But after the show, they said, how did you get the solo? That's all they said to me. Like a school show, like a talent show type thing? No, it was something I did not sign up for. I was in the chorus class and he picked me for the solo and I was so upset about it because I didn't want the solo and I was too nervous to sing in front of people and I was like shaking and hiding behind the page and so it's traumatic and I was like I never ever want to sing in front of people again and then like and then because I was so nervous the feedback was like oh that poor girl or like or like how did you get the solo and I was like fuck I'm never singing again so that's what I was carrying with me into my music career and I I was like, I think I want to own a record company.

33:40And so I started interning at Sony. And then my dad was like, hey, why don't you be a songwriter like Kenny? And I was like, yeah, maybe. And so I started working at Epic Records, actually after my junior year in college. But I finished early and graduated early. And I was working at Epic. And I signed Reese to a demo deal. So I was like an A &R assistant. And I signed her to a demo deal. and I was trying to find like a big deal for like an A &R assistant it was it was and I was trying to find producers to make music that I wanted to be totally different than anything out there and I couldn't really find the right team so I started writing the songs myself and that's what happened and the head of the department who I was really close with he was just like that's kind of a red flag that you're writing songs yourself and I was like yeah but then he heard them and he was like actually they're good does she want to be in groove theory like totally didn't really get that I was trying to do something completely different.

34:36I didn't want her to be in some like R &B group. And so I left there. By that time, I didn't want to work there because everything coming, I was in the Black music department. Black music is a very specific set of, you know, traits and none of which I was into. And I mean, I was into, but I want to do something that pushed and that didn't fit. And so I was like, let's leave here. And I ended up executive producing and writing that record and signing her to MCA. So those were the first songs that I wrote. I feel like if that's all you did in your career, that would be a big deal. It was a big deal.

35:08And it was early, too. I was like, you know, 21 or something like that. But when I started that, and it was a crash course in a lot of things, like dealing with the music industry and all kinds of stuff. So at that point, you still didn't know you wanted to be an artist? No, I didn't. I didn't want to be an artist. I knew I didn't want to be an artist. When I had to show her how to sing a harmony or something, I would sing it so bad. And Doc McKinney, who, he actually produced like The Weeknd and stuff. He was the, he produced a stero back then, which is how I found him. And then he ended up doing The Weeknd now.

35:42But he used to be like, Sadi, can you just sing it for real? Because like, I mean, everybody had kind of already glimpsed that I could actually carry a tune and that I was doing it so bad for no reason. And he'd be like, can you just sing it like the way that it goes so she can? And so I would. And so then after that, I was like, well, I really didn't, it didn't come out how it was in my head. So I was like, I'm going to go start this punk band and I'm going to sing, but I'm never going to perform ever. That was the next stage. I was like, I don't want to stand in front of people and sing. How did you make that change?

36:17Because now you said you have no reservations about standing up in front of a crowd and performing. Well, I did my first show in Philly and I only invited my friends. So it was a loving environment. I had a reverb pedal that I put my microphone through and I was cranking it, cranking it. So you couldn't really hear what I was doing. I put all these effects on it and I was so goofy and like we videotaped it and it was like really fun, really fun. And so because it was so much fun, I was like, I would do this again. So I started this night called The Clap. Now I had moved to Philly. when I wrote the Reese record, I was in New York and there was a lot of attention around that record and even starting to get attention around me as a songwriter.

36:58So I moved to Philly to start this band away from anybody who knew me as that and sort of hid out in Philly while I figured out how to sing and write songs for myself. But I started a night called The Clap with Rich Nichols who managed The Roots. And it was like a band night. And we had all kinds of people come through, even like My Chemical Romance, I think did some of their earliest shows. cool and so we would just play every week at this place called the fire in philly and i kind of got over it i learned how to use my voice as like do all kinds of fun stuff with my voice and um so that i wasn't embarrassed about singing anymore and i i will say to this day performing in my band stiffed the punk stuff was the most freeing and fun performances i've ever done in my life Like it was no choreography, no technical, like, you know, no sinking track to vocals and this no dancers like it was just pure free energy.

37:53And so that was something that I really learned that was so magical. And I really I learned that I loved it. Yeah. And as far as my parents, there were times between putting out the Reese record to Stiffed where my dad was like, okay, it's been like 10 years. When are you getting a real job? That's what I was going to ask you. Yeah. He would be supportive. Like he collected every article for Stiffed and kept it in a book. He was front center at every Stiffed show. But then it'd be times where I was like broke and he'd be like, when are you getting a real job? So there was like, because he was, I think, an artist at heart, but he didn't.

38:30My dad's from the projects and he like, you know, he ended up going to like Penn Law School and becoming a lawyer and doing really well for himself. But he didn't have the freedom, he thought, to be an artist, economic freedom. And so he was torn because he was watching me do kind of what he probably could have been into. But then he also had that part that was like, I'm not going to pay your bills like you got to pay your bills. Like, you don't get to do this. So, and then he passed away before, before Santi Gold. So I know, but my mom didn't. And my mom, I think it's kind of just like fascinated, you know?

39:05Oh, tell me, tell me more. I just, I just, I mean, she doesn't say that much about it, but you can tell she's very proud. And she's, you know, she's kind of, she never came to the shows like my dad. That was his thing. My mom came to some, my mom came to some shows, you know? Is it like a personality type difference? Like less creative? Yeah, she's not as creative. She's a psychiatrist. I've been interviewing her because I'm actually writing a memoir that goes back four generations of women in my family to my great-grandmother. Wow. So I've been interviewing my mom a lot. And we actually just had a conversation that she used to be a musician in the marching band, and she could read music.

39:41And so she actually was into music. But we've always been like, oh, mom's not that into music because she didn't have a record collection. But she's like, well, dad had the records that I liked. You know what I mean? So she is into music, but it's just very different. You know, she's not like front and center at your show. Has she given you any helpful advice from like a psychiatrist perspective about your career? No, my mom. No, everyone's like, what's it like to have a psychiatrist? Yeah, what is it like? It's like having a country mom from Mississippi who is your mom and totally not a psychiatrist.

40:19you know I mean my mom is smart you know I'm not saying that like she's very smart and but I don't know just it did not apply to her kids at all like she doesn't analyze you no but I think psychiatry is is for her and her practice is very different from psychology so she did a lot of work especially later in her career she did a lot of like community facing things like she worked in prisons for a couple years not a couple for several years she worked in like community health centers and really was dealing with like people with severe mental illness and medication and stuff like that too. Wow. So it wasn't that much of that happening with me from my mom.

40:57That's a heavy job though, to come home and have to also be a parent. Well, even crazier, my mom went to medical school after she had three kids. Wow. When I was in first grade, my mom started medical school. So she did four years of medical school and four years of residency while raising three children. Oh my God. Yeah, it was a lot for sure. It's interesting that your mom had three and you have three. I know. And I kind of wanted three too, but I didn't think I was going to have three because I had kids pretty late. But then I had twins and it was kind of like... What is twins like? Woo! I don't know, man.

41:31It's kind of like being in a blender. I've just been thinking about for like a lot of us, like when we were kids, like we were just left alone so much more. And you say, you know, your mom had three kids. She was in medical school. And there's something to be said about that because you become so much more self-reliant. Yeah. It's something great about making your kids figure things out on their own. Yeah. And do things for themselves. Yeah. Where I'm so glad that I had the experiences of like having to figure things out because I did. I did figure them out and I'm very capable now. And I think when, I think the way that we parent now or that, you know, it's sort of, it's like trying to make everything so nice and smooth and easy, but like adversity really does build character.

42:26We have to take one last quick break and then we'll come back with more from Leah Rose and Santi Gold. I firmly believe when it comes to the holidays, you fall into one of two camps. Someone who loves holiday music or someone who won't admit they love holiday music. There's something about a voice you love singing that familiar opening phrase, maybe it's Donny Hathaway, maybe it's Mariah Carey, that just flips a switch and you're instantly back into that warm and cozy headspace only the holidays can bring. For me, that feeling pairs perfectly with a cup of Starbucks caramel brulee latte. That's their signature espresso with steamed milk and a rich caramel brulee flavor topped with whipped cream and a crunchy caramel brulee topping.

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44:45Every December, we start singing at church, around the fire, in our cars, with the radio turned up. But have we ever stopped to ask, where did our favorite Christmas carols come from? And what makes them so magical? I think it's probably one of the most perfect tunes to play and to sing. The voices are converging. They're adding this more complex and chromatic harmony. And it gives us that climactic arrival point. Hark is a podcast about the meaning and the making of Christmas carols. Get into the spirit of the season and listen to Hark, the stories behind our favorite Christmas carols. Available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at americamagazine.org.

45:36We're back with the rest of Leah Rose's conversation with Santi Gold. I was thinking about it because I was listening to an interview with some young artists, and I just wasn't feeling the edge and the grit from them. And I was like, I think it's because all these kids were over-parented. I don't know. I mean, there's so many terrible parents out there. And there's so many people who were not over-parented, who were just totally neglected and abused and didn't have anybody, too. You know, so there's so many, there's such a vast spectrum of the parenting that people received. And I think that if I were to say what's wrong with an artist today, it would have more to do with values and social media and the idea that you can have overnight success for no talent and that there's no dues paying and that you are entitled to whatever somebody has worked for 20 years should be yours instantly.

46:39I think that that has created a generation of entitlement and also the values. Like people don't value art. So art is going to change because even for me, honestly, like I hate to say it, but I don't really give a fuck anymore right now. Right now, today, I'm going to tell you that the effort that I put into my art is undervalued and I don't really want to put that effort in anymore. That's where I'm at. And I think that that's what's going to continue to happen because it's so hard to make a living at it. It's so hard to connect with the people who actually appreciate it. And it takes too much time.

47:20And as a mother, I'm like, actually, I spent all this time and energy last time. And it didn't really do what it needed to do for me to be for it to be worth it for me to do it again. So I probably won't do that again. For your last album? For my last couple albums. You know what I mean? I'm just saying like what the system has become, the way that we profit off of our art, the expectation of constant output, constant product, the amount of hustle that we have to do to make money, not from the art that we make, but from doing other stuff that has nothing to do with making the art as artists. It's discouraging and it's a deterrent for entering the art world.

48:00And so the art will definitely reflect that shift of values, which is sad. And I'm hoping that we can actually like figure out some ways to sustain art and artists so that that doesn't happen. Because if we have a whole bunch of vapid art, it's going to be a real sad state for culture. Yeah. Some of that was reflected in the note that you put up on your Instagram or on your website about the decision to cancel your tour. I love that note so much because you took the time to explain exactly where you were at as a business person, as an artist, emotionally, how everything was just taking a toll on you and the wheels were coming off.

48:41Can you just talk a little bit about your decision to write that and what the process of writing that for you? Well, I knew I had to let my fans know what was going on if I was going to cancel a tour. I felt really bad about canceling a tour. I really kind of felt that the tour might not happen from before it was announced, but I was pressured to announce it anyway. And they were like, if you don't announce it, then we're going to miss the, you know, if we do do it, we're going to miss the opportunity or whatever. So I kind of announced it, But then I knew it was coming. So I felt like I really owed them an explanation.

49:15And like we talked about, I'm a journal writer. So I go in. When I write, I go in. And that letter was originally like four pages long. And I wrote it late at night one night. And I was like, who's awake right now? And I called Dave Siddick from TV on the radio. And I was like, Dave, listen to this. And he was like, wow, that's like an op-ed and a letter and a book. he was like maybe strip it down and hit these points you know and he helped me he was so great that's my buddy I love him so much but he was like look I'm so glad you're saying this because everybody's talking about this and we all are feeling like this you know and I that was my experience like everybody I was talking to we were all just silently suffering and I was like this isn't helping anybody and it's certainly not helping our fans and people who care about us and our art to not know what we're going through.

50:09Was this like a pandemic, like coming out of the pandemic specific issue or was this an issue that you felt existed before the pandemic? Well, see, what happened was it's not, there was a very specific circumstances of the pandemic that made it so, so stark, you know, like so in our face and so impossible. Like the inflation is a huge part of it. the fact that gas was so expensive. So your tour buses, I mean, people are out there. They're just out there now, but like a lot of artists are making like at least 70 % less than what they normally make. So how many times are they going to be able to continue to do that?

50:47There's a lot of people that went out and did full arena tours and ended up millions of dollars in debt because you're still spending way more money than you were spending. And you still have to make your show look like at the same level that you are. So some people came out of pocket for that and just did it. But how many times are you going to be able to do that? And a lot of those circumstances have not changed. I think eventually less people will be out on the road at the same time. But then there's the bigger problem of mental health, which existed prior. And I think a lot of the media picked up on that angle.

51:22It's like there are artists who are out there and touring fine and making money, but they are so depleted. And it's such an unsustainable pace to be expected to tour as the main way that you sustain your career, whether it's financial or just having to stay in the public eye so you're relevant. Either way, it's too much to have to like put out music constantly and be on the road constantly. Like that was never the model. Like when I was growing up, people put out records about every four years and they sold their records and they made their money and they could tour or not tour. But, you know, they did, but they didn't have to spend so much time on the road.

52:02Maybe when you're like young, it might be fun. Going around the world the first time is really, really fun. Going around the world when you have three kids and have to leave your family and you've been there before and you're doing above five shows a week. It's like, that's not fun. and when you're doing that every year, like people are putting out records every year now. Like I'm not doing that and I don't even want to do that. What was it like for you specifically in the pandemic? Like before the pandemic started, before we knew what it was and then all of a sudden it became clear that we're going to be stuck inside.

52:38What was that like for you as an artist, for someone who had been out and around and used to moving and working with people? How did that affect you? Well, the hardest part for me was just having all the children and no help in the house. And in the initial lockdown where we like nobody was coming in the house, that was just pretty impossible. My twins had just turned two and nobody else could cook. Nobody else was deep clean and it was just undoable. So what happened was I started feeling like I was drowning and I was going to have like some sort of breakdown. Honestly, if I couldn't have some sort of space to like just be my normal self, like other than mom and other than just being on everybody else's schedule of needs and no time for my own needs.

53:21So eventually I was able to carve out like the four days when my mom would come in. I would get to go to the back house for three hours after dinner and write or record or do whatever I needed to do. and thank God I had just set up my studio at home. And so I started working on my record and it was like the most cathartic thing because there had been so much because it wasn't just the pandemic, it was the riots and all the police brutality and like the wildfires. There was so much going on and I had had no opportunity to even access. I was in survival mode, you know? So I didn't get to process any of it.

53:59So it wasn't until I had space in my back house that I started being able to process it through writing and music. That's how I live. That's my lifeline is creativity. So to be able to have the space, I was like, stuff was pouring out of me. So I just wrote this record so fast. And then we got deeper in the pandemic. We went to Canada and we had a nanny at that point who came to stay with us. And I rented a cabin in the woods and sent all my music equipment out. And that's when I actually made the record. So I was doing virtual sessions with producers. There's like eight hours a day. And that was amazing because then it was like fun.

54:37Then it was like, I mean, I was getting to have a social interaction with my friends all over the world for hours at a time. We spent half the time just talking because we were just also alone. But yeah, it's like you feel like yourself again. You felt like an adult. Yeah. And also just to be creative. But then also the wonderful thing about the pandemic was that I ended up for years, I felt like I was on this hamster wheel of, you know, albums and touring and trying to have kids in between, you know. And I got to kind of step off and start some ideas that I've been wanting to do for years. One was, came up with the idea to do this memoir and I wrote the book proposal.

55:16Another was I came up with an idea for a movie that I wanted to do, which I've just finished the first draft of that. And that'll have an album to go with it. And so I got to take the time to start all these other things that once I started them, even once things were back going, I just was like, I'm going to finish these things that I started. So it was actually an opportunity to be creative in many different ways that I hadn't had the time to start. And if you were on tour, you would have never had the opportunity to do those things. you would have had this space. Because I've been wanting to do a lot of those things for years.

55:49So are you playing shows now? I have four shows this summer. Okay. How are you feeling now? Do you think about it differently? Do you feel prepared to be out again? You want the honest answer? I am so into all the other stuff that I'm doing right now that's not music. And I'm really having an amazing time I'm doing a bunch of things that I've been wanting to do for years. And so I think I'm going to focus actually on some of these other projects for a while. And they are not necessarily not going to include music, you know, but they're not going to include doing things the way in the traditional like make a record and tour.

56:31I don't think I'll be doing that for a while. Yeah, I'm having so much fun. And actually, it's just so much fresher and more exciting to like not be doing things the way that I've always done them. Shows right now don't feel exciting, but when I get on stage, I will be very excited to be there with my fans. I do miss my fans and I generally have fun performing. Yeah. Have you noticed that your crowd has changed over the years? Yeah, I mean, some of them are older like me and then some of them, but the thing is I got a lot of new young fans. I think a lot of my fans are still like 25, which they were when I first started.

57:07So I've got all the fans that were 25 and now are 15 years older. And then I've got actually new fans that are 25 and some even younger. So I love that people are still finding out about my music and it's still resonating with people. Like I said, when I listened to that first album, it still resonates. And I think a lot of the things like during the pandemic, I noticed disparate youth really like kind of had a jump. And I think that that's because the messages are really forever. I'm curious where you are now. Like, what is your relationship to success and to ambition? and how has that changed over just the arc of your career from when you first released the album, your debut album, till now?

57:47How do you think you think differently about success at this point? I think I'm really coming into a new space and my understanding of a lot of things. I don't know, FOMO just completely disappeared out of my realm. And that used to be a big thing, especially with social media. That whole thing about always needing to be there and be in the scene or should I have done this or should I not have done this? That, I don't really see that anymore. My idea of success is balance and to be able to be creative in a way that brings me joy and fulfillment and peace and continuing to evolve personally. I want to be able to make things that are inspiring and that change people's perspectives of themselves and the world.

58:35and that's what makes me feel successful is when I can do that. And also now that I'm like responsible for a bunch of people to be able to support them and myself in doing that. Yeah. I think, you know, at one point though, I probably would have said that I want as many people as possible to know my music, but I just want the people who are ready to know my music to know my music. Do you feel like, I know you said that you set out to make music that sounded like nothing that was already out there and you had it, you heard it in your mind. Do you feel like you've been able to achieve that? Yeah.

59:16Yeah, definitely. I read somewhere yesterday that there's like less than 1 % of producers are Black women. And I was like, that's so messed up. But I think that part of my journey in being able to get down what I hear in my head is actually just to become a producer and be able to direct the musicians and producers that I work with to make a sound that's very specific to what I want it to be. And it's been a skill set that I've learned over the years and to be able to make that happen. And I think it's, man, I guess it's rare, but I wish more women would would do it because it really, I think, would make a big difference into how women are portrayed in music and give a lot more power to women in creating unique voices and sounds.

1:00:11Yeah. How was it for you when you heard the Break My Soul remix and Beyonce shouted you out? I think other people had a bigger reaction than I did, but it was cool. I was very far away from everything. I was in Jamaica and when I was, I was sitting out like on this thing over the ocean and my phone just happened to be with me and it was like, bing, bing, bing. And I was like, ah, it's ruining my moment on the, on the ocean. But then everyone started saying, I was like, what are they talking about? I had no idea what they were talking about. And then somebody sent it to me and I was like, oh, that's cool.

1:00:46It felt good to be acknowledged in that way. Because I do think like I said I definitely know that I have been a pioneer in a lot of ways and I know that I've influenced a lot of artists but unfortunately artists don't always say who has influenced them or they just you know and it was nice that she actually said that and also the company and the names that she included that felt really special so I was really grateful that she did that and I not just for myself but for some of the other artists that she mentioned that I know people didn't know of, you know, like Rosetta Tharpe. I mean, like, I know a lot of those people were like, who?

1:01:24And it's like, that's good that she used her platform to bring attention to these women. So, yeah, that's great. Well, thank you so much for doing this. This was fun. Thank you. It was fun.

1:01:39Thanks to Santigold for sharing her artistic vision with us. You can hear all of our favorite Santigold songs on a playlist at brokenrecordpodcast.com. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash Broken Record Podcast, where you can find all of our new episodes. Broken Record is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Taladay, Nisha Vencutt, Jordan McMillan, and Eric Sandler. Our editor is Sophie Crane. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin+. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription service that offers bonus content and uninterrupted ad-free listening for only$4.99 a month.

1:02:25Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions. And if you like the show, remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richman.

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