Shirley Manson

30:04And the minister I reeled against, I felt his ego. As a child, I felt this ego rather than this. Well, I talk about the word compassion again. I wasn't receiving his compassion. I felt instead I was watching a performance. Yeah. So I just rejected it. And I was furious at being let down by Jesus. And I say that in all sincerity, I felt really let down. I was like, wow, this is a horrible, horrible sham. As I've gotten older, I see organized religion in a completely different light now. But I was looking at it very simply as a child of like, this was something I believed in. I found out it's a load of bollocks and I'm furious about it and I reject it completely.

30:52Where did all that passion and excitement and love that you were, you know, giving to Jesus and giving to religion, you were devout and you were such a good student, where did all that go once you decided religion isn't for me? It went into music primarily. I was very active in an all-female choir, which I loved and was obsessed by. And I was a member of the school orchestra. I played violin, piano, clarinet. I was a musical person. And I also got involved in the stage, you know, with dramatic arts. I had an amazing teacher actually at school. She was a bit of a Miss Jean Brodie type who plucked a couple of girls, I being one of them, from her year of kids and encouraged us to join an Edinburgh Youth Theatre.

31:45And that became sort of an obsession for me. So, yeah, I was so lucky. I had amazing, amazing teachers because Scotland in the 70s, they ploughed a lot of money into education. And the school that I was at was attached to a very prestigious music school called St Mary's. So we had a music studio. So I was really spoiled. I had an incredible education thanks to the Scottish government at the time. What was the rock scene like in Scotland when you were a teenager? Were you going out and seeing bands or were you more focused on what you were doing with the drama class? Or were you out? Were you sort of like at bars and seeing shows?

32:30Well, I didn't have any money. So I was being punished because at 13 years old I got caught smoking. So I got no pocket money. So I couldn't actually go to very many shows. So it's much later on that I started going to see, you know, Susie and the Banshees or the Waterboys or the Smiths or like I saw a lot of amazing shows. But that was much later on. When we were young, the rock scene in Scotland hadn't really come to much because we didn't have a music industry. Everything had to go through London. Yeah. And so we had a very sort of disparate little music scene up in Scotland. that started to change in the 80s but yeah it wasn't it wasn't thriving to be fair was Jesus and Mary Chain are from Scotland right hell yeah they are I mean we have we had amazing artists you know we had like the associates Jesus and Mary Chain and my arguably one of my favorite bands of all time would be the Cocteau Twins oh wow cool yeah And we claimed them as ours, you know, but we had a lot of great punk bands like the Rosillo's and Exploited and we were very lucky.

33:46But yeah, I couldn't afford to go to any of the shows because I didn't have any money. I was so curious about your post high school life. I think it's around that time that you joined your first band, but you were just sort of still living at home, but sort of floating around a little bit. And what do you remember about that time? Well, again, I was really spoiled because our parents basically kept us in the family home until we basically wanted to leave. And I didn't leave my family home until I was about 23. It was ridiculous. But it was because my parents were so sort of like easy-ozy. They let us come and go as we saw fit.

34:23I mean, I was very rebellious. And I think my parents were smart enough to realize if we fight her, she will win. She has no compassion. Do not mess with her. She has no compassion at all. And so instead of stamping on my neck, what they did was they just bounced back and let me be and let me destroy basically my, like my education. I realized now, like they were just obviously like, like, okay, we're going to let her do her thing. You know, she's going to drive into a wall and, you know, hopefully she won't be too bloodied. But I failed my schooling basically. And my dad said, well, you need to get a job.

35:01It's that simple. and so I went and worked in a teen clothing store which is kind of like uh forever 21 it was sort of like that were you like a cool shop girl or were you I was a cool shop girl I mean I didn't think I was cool but I was and people used to tell people even today go I remember you from Miss Selfridge I thought you were the coolest girl you know and we had like I was doing my hair up and crazy hair styles. And I worked at the makeup station for a while and I got to paint people's faces and it was great. But then I had a bad attitude towards some of the customers. I got relegated to the changing room, which I hated, as you can imagine.

35:45And then I was so rude. I got into an altercation with a customer. I was then relegated to the stock room and that was the end of my career. Oh, wow. They're like, she cannot be around people. Yes. You know, I'd see customers like treat the clothes poorly, throw them on the floor of the fitting room and then walk out. And I'd be, excuse me, you need to pick that up and take it back to me here at the station. And they would throw it on my lap and I would throw it right back at them. And I'd get in trouble for that. Like throw her in the back. Exactly. We're putting her upstairs. And so that's what happened to my glorious career in Miss Selfridge.

36:18But at nighttime, I was playing in a band and I was also a big clubber. I loved to dance. So I'd go to this club called the Hoochie Coochie Club, which was my favorite club in Edinburgh. And they played incredible music and they had amazing bands that would come and play. And yeah, and it was full of people with incredible style. And even to this day, I'm like, that is the coolest scene I've ever been in. Yeah. Or none. And it's extra cool because back then there wasn't the internet. So people couldn't just like order like random shit online that they saw somebody else wearing. It was people actually picking pieces themselves and putting things together.

36:56Exactly. And we didn't have much money. So we were really into the vintage clothing stores, you know, so everybody looked different. Nobody looked the same. You know, now I look at kids and I'm like, why are you all wearing white, like cut off midriff T-shirts and baggy jeans and your hair straight like a Kardashian? And you've got the long nails like a Kardashian and you've got the same exact same sneakers on. Like, I don't get it. I'm like really curious. Whereas when we were young, we would die. We'd rather die than look like someone else. You know. Yes. Once you were in a band and the band was touring and it sounds like you weren't making like real money, but you were able to support yourself at some point, right?

37:41Well, again, luckily for me, my parents hadn't shoved me out the house. So I didn't really need that much money. I certainly didn't make much money. But I realize now looking back, I just did it. Literally, I loved it. I got excited by it and I had a lot of like tenacity. Like I sang back up with another girl in the band that I was in called Goodbye Mr. McKenzie. And she would leave recording sessions early because she'd get tired. She'd be like, I need to go to bed. Like I can't handle this. I would be there all night long to sing two lines as a backing vocalist. Do you know what I mean? I just believed in it and I wanted to be there and wanted to be part of it.

38:22And I think that tenacity has served me really well throughout my whole career. It's just like, I am not the girl that goes home. It's the same girl who read the entire Bible. Exactly. She's nuts. Keep away from her. Same girl. Was your path a lot different from your sister's paths? Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, we were very different people. And again, I stuck in at everything I ever did. You know, I took everything I did seriously. I stuck in at choir, stuck in at youth theatre, stuck in at ballet. You know, my sisters were much less focused than I was. They were just sort of like, yeah, maybe I'll play the piano for a bit, but then I'll give that up and then I'll go riding for a bit.

39:08They had less interest in sort of the arts than I did. And my big sister, God bless her, all she wanted to do her whole life was be a nurse. She just retired, actually, but she's a very committed intensive care nurse and she's a brilliant one. Do you think being a middle child has influenced your relationships and the way that you relate to other people? Like even in the band, does that come up the way that you sort of view life? Yes, absolutely everything is coloured by my position in the family. And I'm not being flip. And I actually saw an article in the BBC that they've done a study on this.

39:48And they asked oldest children and youngest children if they enjoyed their position in the family. And they all, apparently, a very high percentage anyway, said yes. But all the middle children said they hated the fact that they were the middle child. And I was one of them. oh I'm beginning now in my old age to go actually it was quite cool because it really twisted me and and being twisted is really good for being an artist so it's okay it all worked out in the end but I was miserable because I felt like I didn't enjoy any privilege like my big sister got to have all the responsibility yes and freedom my little sister got all the coddling and I got all the secondhand clothes.

40:33And it made me insane, you know. And it also made me hungry for love and hungry for connection. And that has been a difficult void to fill in my life, you know. Oh, that makes me so sad. Yeah, I don't feel sad. It's been good for me. And I have an amazing husband who's fixed the hole. Oh, good. Yeah. But for so long, I realized I was just, I don't know, I was just wanting to feel like somebody saw me. I felt really invisible as a middle child. But then when you go on to become a lead singer of a band and you occupy that position, which is the central position, literally with a spotlight on you, you're considered an it girl.

41:22How does that not fill the hole? I mean, I know it doesn't. Well, in some ways it does fill the hole. Like when I'm standing on stage, like you say, right nestled in the middle of the band, they're flanking me and there's a light on me and I feel seen and I feel understood. That has fixed it to a certain degree. But of course, you can't spend your whole life doing that. And so you have to fix yourself outside of work. And I definitely have done that. But I do notice I love, like even now, like I love sitting in between two people. And I love being a Shirley Sandwich. You know, it's sort of weird, but I like really gravitate towards it.

42:02Wow. Yeah. It's funny. Yeah, I'm grateful for it because I really do think it's helped me in my career. I think it's helped me be really good at what I do. Yeah. It's because a lot of artists, creative artists, are not comfortable in a live situation. They don't enjoy it. They do it because they have to. You mean live on stage performing? Yeah, live on stage performing. They don't love it. They don't enjoy it. And I do. I feel like I might like my most whole self on stage. I imagine as someone who came up and was super popular, the height of your career, MTV was everything. So there was such a strong visual component that came along with the success.

42:45did that visual side of it did that freak you out or did it make you feel good I absolutely understood the power of video yeah and I absolutely understood the power of identity um I'd been in a band as I said before for 10 years before I joined Garbage and that band had taught me a lot about what were your tools of the trade so to speak and so I understood that videos and the visualization of the band were of primary importance. And I put a lot of energy into that. And I also, having been a previous clubbing girl, I understood that what you wore was also important. And I put a lot of weight behind that too.

43:29And that sort of emphasis that I put on that kind of thing was still quite unusual. It wasn't par de course. And of course, we arrived somewhat at the tail end of grunge music where everybody was sort of playing glamour down. They were crushing glamour. They were doing sort of a much more sort of low-key presentation. And I was like, yeah, I'm bringing in some club flavours here. And I like wore the neon dresses. And I wore what I called like sort of pop star makeup. You know, I wasn't coming out with dishevelled hair and no makeup. I came on with a full face and glamorous hair. And so I really stood out, you know, when we came out, everybody was like, well, who's this, you know?

44:15And so, yeah, I did know that it was a powerful tool. But unfortunately for me, when I did start attracting a lot of attention, it became something unpleasant for me. I didn't enjoy the attention the way I thought I would. I didn't revel in the attention and it started to make me a little unhappy. Do you know why? Was it different attention than you were anticipating? Yeah, it was different kind of attention. I felt a lot of expectation on my shoulders to present a certain way. And of course, I'm not a particularly vain person. As I said earlier, I understood why I had to present a certain way and it was important.

44:55And I don't think it was born of vanity. I mean, maybe people that know me better would argue that, but I don't think so. I just don't think I'm a particularly vain person, but I had a lot of self-doubt and low physical esteem. Yeah. I didn't feel beautiful. And now looking back, I'm like, my God, you were so beautiful, but you didn't think you were, you know. And so I was hard on myself. And if I didn't look like the version of myself that presented on MTV, I felt I was falling short of the mark. And I felt I was disappointing everybody. and I was letting the band down and that if I was really a good like music personality or lead singer I would be able to achieve the height you know of that I was I was achieving on film I would be able to muster that in in my real life and I couldn't and therefore I felt oh I'm not meant to be doing this I mean I really did a number on myself I was like I'm not meant to be doing this I'm not good enough I'm not beautiful stylish enough I'm not this I'm not that and it just it became really unhealthy and horrible.

45:59Did you have anybody back then that you could talk to about that? Any other women who were in a similar position? No, I didn't. And I think that was part of the problem is a lot of my friends back home, for whatever reason, just didn't really want to engage with me about my career. I think it was very difficult. You know, I think, and this happens a lot I think to people who gain public success you know a visibly successful career in the public eye I think is hard on your friends sometimes and it disrupts the power balance between friends yeah where previously it's all egalitarian and then their attitude towards you changes my attitude didn't change towards them but their attitude towards me did and I think they projected a lot onto me and it was very lonely and I also deliberately and this is on me I diminished my own light because I felt it was hurting my the people I loved and again I'm not saying this was sane or healthy thinking it was this is this was a very destructive part of my personality but I would diminish everything and then of course you grow up and you start to resent the fact that you've diminished your success and you've diminished the things that have happened to you and you haven't owned the moments that really were deserving of celebration.

47:21You know, when you meet Madonna, you want to go home and scream, I fucking met Madonna tonight and she told me I was amazing! Oh my God. And you know, you want to scream it from the rooftops, but you keep it to yourself because you know that your friends are not going to enjoy that particular boast. Yes. And so it's a very complicated experience. And yeah, I didn't know any other women in the business yet. Okay. who did what I did. And so, yeah, I was totally on my own. And of course, I'm in this band with three older men who just move through the world very differently from me. One last break and we back with Shirley Manson.

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49:21They're in the late night studio sessions, the chance encounters, and the cultural moments that shaped entire movements. For music lovers who find themselves going down rabbit holes about their favorite artists, Claude, an AI thinking partner, helps you explore those deeper questions. Whether you're wondering about the connections between different scenes, trying to understand what drove a particular creative period, or exploring how social movements influenced sound, Claude works through these complex cultural puzzles with you. It's built for people who know that understanding music means understanding the human stories behind it.

49:55CLAW doesn't just compile facts. It helps you see patterns across decades of music history, ask the kinds of follow-up questions that reveal deeper truths, and works through the nuanced relationships between artists, movements, and moments. Whether you're a music journalist, industry professional, or someone who just lives for understanding the stories behind the sounds, CLAW matches your level of curiosity about what really drives great art. Try CLAW for free at clod.ai slash brokenrecord and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard, which I can appreciate as someone who holds themselves to lofty if not ridiculous standards, especially with the car I drive.

50:37The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them. Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. I really appreciate how open you are about your experience in the music industry and how reflective you are.

51:16And I wonder, does that have anything to do with you hosting a podcast and being an interviewer? Do you think you sort of understand the process in a different way now after having that experience? Well, I definitely understand the process a wee bit better than I did. I don't think I understand it more. If anything, I understand it less and I'm much more self-conscious. I have a deep respect for journalists that I speak to. who I can, and this never, shame on me, but this never ever struck my mind. But I understand how much work goes into interviewing somebody. I had no idea. So I have a lot more respect, I guess, for the process.

51:56And I do try and honour it, you know, because I know what the journalist has done on the other side. So, but hosting a podcast was utterly terrifying. And I really realised how out of my depth I was. And it caused me a lot of distress and stress. I felt, because I wanted to honour the person I was interviewing. And I felt like, of course, I didn't want to just ask the same old, same old. Totally. Yeah, it caused me a lot of angst. Never again. I wonder if though, there is an advantage that you might have because you know, you're an artist talking to other artists and artists naturally feel a lot more comfortable in that situation with, you know, someone who maybe can understand just how a creative person might think or move in the world.

52:47So that might actually be a big advantage that you have as an interviewer. I mean, maybe. I certainly think there was no suspicion that I had some kind of high agenda, you know, so everybody was very relaxed and open with me. It was me who was uptight. You know, I was the one who was bringing a lot of stress to the equation. But, you know, There is a certain kind of understanding with certain artists that you enjoy as a fellow artist. When you connect with an artist that really gets you and you really get them, there is a sort of level that you get to that I don't believe I've ever gotten to in my life outside of music.

53:29Is there anybody in particular who you've met over the years who you really had an instant connection with? uh peaches and carineau and alanis and liz fair you know all the women that kind of are in my sphere yeah and we share a certain kind of understanding and a trust i guess with each other that uh is very beautiful and i consider a great privilege you know that i'm able to communicate with these women and we have these profound conversations that just if you don't do what we do, you cannot hold this, the same conversation, you know. What types of things come up in those conversations? Well, that's private for that.

54:10That's private. That's the witch's coven. And what goes on in the coven stays in the coven, you know, but yeah, you can, you can just be really vulnerable with one another. And we talk about our role as, as, as artists in the world, you know, and it's, Yes, it's a real gift. I consider it a real gift. Do you remember any moments? I mean, now you can look back and hopefully celebrate those moments like meeting Madonna or other big rock star moments where you got to meet somebody who you just idolized or really respected. And it actually went well, like it was a good experience. All of my meetings with my heroes have gone well.

54:52Every single one. Really? Yeah. I've had just magical moments where I'm pinching myself. No assholes. No, I haven't met a single asshole. And they've all blown me away. But I will attribute some of that to myself because I had really good taste in the people that I chose to admire and be a pupil of in the music industry. Everybody that I was obsessed with, I've met. All of them. Who's someone in particular that you can share a story about? I've, well, I mean, there's been so many. It feels obscene to boast, you know, but I've just enjoyed incredible interactions with so many. I mean, the funniest one, I'll tell you the funniest one.

55:37Okay. I met Patti Smith. We were at the Montrose Jazz Festival and she was actually opening for Garbage. This is how ridiculous the music industry is and how tits up it gets. You know, we were the brand new thing. So we were given this high position on the bill, but Patti Smith is opening for us. and it was obscene and I was embarrassed by it. But anyway, we drive in late on our bus. We get to the venue. I am starving and I haven't eaten all day. And I get a, I don't know how I remember this, but I got a green Thai curry and I am tucking into it and there's a knock on the door. And I go, come in.

56:16And then there's another knock on the door and I go, come in. And I'm scoffing this food like a greedy bastard like I am. And then there's a third knock on the door and I go, for fuck's sake. And I get up off my seat and I throw the door open and who's standing there but the great Patti Smith, as serene and goddess-like as you can imagine. Yes. And very quietly she said, I just wanted to come by because I won't have time after my set and I wanted to say hi. And I'm like, oh, oh, hi, you know, trying to be all of a sudden Miss Nice, you know, Miss Mannard. Yeah. We talk a little and, of course, I'm loving to her and she's very graceful and elegant and off she shuffles.

56:55And I shut the door and I sit down and I put my fork into my green curry and I look up and there's a mirror right in front of me because I'm at my dressing table. I look up in the mirror and there's green curry sauce all over my face. And I'm just like, oh my God, oh my God. So that is one of the funny moments. I'll never forget. I was so humiliated and it's all on me. That's so funny. Is there anything else about the new album? I want to make sure you're able to say everything you want to say about the process or upcoming tour. Is there anything that we didn't cover? I think you've done an amazing job and I'm so bowled over by, obviously, like the amount of work you've put into this.

57:43I mean, we touched on this earlier, but I'm just really grateful to talk to somebody like you. You know, it's as if older woman in the music industry. how people relate to you it shifts you know yes and you're sort of invisible in a funny way yeah so to to talk to somebody of your caliber and and get to answer really wonderful questions I'm very grateful for I don't there I couldn't begin to tell you how many interviews I've done you know over the last few years where I'm thinking to myself and I have I am not the most confident, like sort of believing in myself kind of person. You know, I don't go, I am the fucking shit and you should be so thrilled to talk to me.

58:25I'm never like that. I'm just sort of like, oh my God, I can't believe that Rolling Stone would want to speak to me. You know, I never take it for granted or anything like that. But sometimes I'm sitting, you know, talking to journalists and I think, is this really the level that we're at? I'm an artist. I've been doing this for 30 years, you know, and you're talking to me about a dress I wore on stage, you know, that you thought made me look like a green witch. Are you fucking out of your mind? You know what I mean? Shame on them. Yeah, well, you know, it's just, it is what it is, right? But as I said, I'm just really grateful for your time and anybody talking about our work, our new record in any context, I'm grateful for.

59:09There's so many artists out there. There's so many records. and to be given an opportunity to just say, hey, we've made this record. We think it's really good. It is really good. I second that. But we made it with a lot of love, you know, and we have no real expectations of it, but it is brought as a gift into the world. And I hope it's received that way. And hopefully it's just a part, another moment in a career that will continue. That's what I hope. Yeah, it is going to continue. Thank you so much, Shirley. I appreciate you so much. I appreciate you, Leah. And thank you. It's been really lovely talking to you.

59:46And yeah, lots of love. Thank you. Good night. Bye. Bye bye. In the episode description, you'll find a link to a playlist of our favorite garbage tracks, as well as their latest album, Let All That We Imagine Be The Light. Be sure to check out youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast to see all of our video interviews. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at thebrokenrecordpod. You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tolley. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

1:00:24If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.

1:00:52The more you learn about your favorite artists, the more you want to know. Claude helps you keep digging, finding new threads and rabbit holes to explore. Whether it's discovering deeper meaning behind a detail in an interview, or figuring out the influence behind an artist's particular era. Claude thinks with you to find the next clue. If you can't get enough of the stories behind your favorite music and artists, Claude will help you discover new layers you didn't know existed. Try Claude for free at claude.ai slash brokenrecord. This is an ad by BetterHelp. We've all had that epic rideshare experience.

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1:02:02The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them. Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. This is an iHeart Podcast.