Sonny Rollins

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2:34taken to memorialize that era. That person is with us today, the great Sonny Rollins. Since I last spoke to Sonny Rollins on the program a few years ago, a couple of interesting artifacts have surfaced. One is the notebook that he kept while he was in self-imposed exile for music between 1958 and 1961. Those were photocopied and made into a wonderful book called The Notebooks of Sonny Rollins, where you can get insight into what he was thinking about at the time, both socially, politically, and in terms of his music. The other are some great live recordings of Sonny in Europe. There was also a great biography published about Sonny Rollins since we last spoke by Aidan Levy called Saxophone Colossus, The Life and Music of Sonny Rollins.

3:18So though last year was a tough year for jazz, I'm honored at the top of 2025 to bring you a conversation with the saxophone colossus himself, Sonny Rollins. This is Broken Record. Line of notes for the digital age. I'm Justin Richman.

3:39We spoke a couple of years ago and had a really nice conversation. But I guess since that time, a lot's come out about you. There's been a whole set of records that were previously just bootlegs that were sets of recordings from Europe in 1959 came out. And those were really beautiful to listen to. You had a biography come out, pretty substantial biography, and a book of your notebooks curated and distilled down into a book form. Yeah, yeah, right. So I thought, man, maybe it'd be cool to have another conversation and talk about some of this stuff. Okay, well, I'm down for it. Whatever you think might be important for you or anybody else to know, give it a shot.

4:29First of all, you did some pretty substantial interviews, it appears to me, from reading the book. For the book, was that an enjoyable process to revisit the entirety of your life the way you did? Well, you know, as a guy that's been around so long, if I have now, you know, which I, who knows, I never thought I'd be one of the last people standing. But I've done a lot of interviews at a lot of different times in my life. But I'm not a guy that likes to look back at my interviews. Do you listen to old recordings of yourself anymore? No, I don't listen to my records. I never have. And which is not always good.

5:22I don't think that's good. when I used to work with Miles he used to every night that we'd do a concert he'd have it recorded and come home and listen to it and therefore knowing what he needed to do or needed to delete or anything like that I wish I had that type of personality but generally I'm always feeling that I'm not, you know, oh God, I hate to hear that. Listen to that that I played. I should have played that better. Blah, blah, blah. That's the type of personality that I was damned with for this work that we do. When Miles would listen back to those recordings, would he have you and the rest of the band listen as well?

6:24No. He would use that, I'm sure, when he was rehearsing the band. But it wasn't listening, everybody listening. I mean, he didn't need that. He listened to what he thought should be happening. And that was it. But having had the chance to look through some of the pages of your notebooks that you were keeping from around 1959 through the late 60s, it does appear you were very meaningfully recording thoughts about your playing and where you felt improvements could be made. So there is a part of you that was already doing that, it seems to me, but maybe just in a different way. Well, I was being interviewed a lot.

7:19And I had to make comments about something. If the record came out and I had to talk about it, I heard it, whether it was on the radio or whatever, but I didn't take it home myself and listen to it. That's what I mean. Got it. But no, what I said is exactly correct. I'm not a guy that really listened to things that I did more than once or twice to realize, oh man, I really don't like that. Yeah. I want to ask about Freedom Suite, if you don't mind. if you can recall what might have been on your mind around 1958 shortly before you take a bit of a sabbatical and you write and record Freedom Suite it's a stunning almost 20 minute piece that is the title song of the album as well and it seems like it it stands out in your early sort of catalog just that there's nothing quite like that in your early catalog to that date.

8:36And so I was just curious if you can recall what was your feeling around that time when that was composed. Well, I have always been, especially from that period, but also from before, I was sort of a political guy, You know, and it's interesting now that there are a lot of new young black musicians which have been out, that have been out, you know, much more recently than mine either. But when I was growing up, I was born in Harlem. I used to go out when I was, I think, about three years old with my grandmother. My grandmother was an activist. She was very much interested in straightening out the racial situation in Harlem.

9:50And in any place else, they exist today. I don't have to explain that to you. I'll just say the situation. She was an activist. I think she was a member of Marcus Carvey's group at one time. But anyway, she used to carry me with her, marching up and down on Lenox Avenue, for instance. and we were complaining about one of the big department stores there, I think it was called Bloomberg's, which didn't allow black people to sit at the counters and all this kind of stuff. So I remember Free Tom Mooney and the Scottsboro Boys. The Scottsboro Boys, as you know, were accused of rape and all that, found out something like the Central Park case.

10:53Yeah. Okay, so I was introduced to that period of activity at a very early age. and as I said, I was the only one, my grandmother and myself. My mother was in there, she didn't power it. My brother turned out to be a medical doctor, so he was busy, although he was interested in music, but not jazz music. So he ended up becoming an MD, so he quit the music thing altogether and my sister just turned out to be a mother with two kids. So what I'm saying is that my grandmother would carry me and I liked that. I mean, of course, I'm such a little baby, but I liked that. And then so I got to meet people like W.E.B.

12:01Du Bois and other people that were into the Black liberation movement. And as I grew up and I began, I remember W.E.B. Du Bois. Do you know who he was? Yeah, great scholar, activist, scholar of reconstruction. Okay. So W.E. Du Bois just said that if you ever, and he wasn't talking to me, he was talking to anybody, black. He said if you ever got any place in your field, whatever it was, that you should always mention the fact that you were aware of the situation in the United States. Okay, so when I got to the point that I began making records, I always used black songs in there. I am a guy that's a jacket.

13:12You know, I used to be a very good speaker like this, but what happened was some time ago, about a year ago, I had a very serious accident, and it has affected my remembrance, my thought remembrance. But actually, please forgive me sometimes, but what I would say was, I use a lot of Negro ballads, and I put them on my jazz records. You know, the Negro National Anthem, I put them on my album. a long time ago. I think Kenny Durham was playing with me on that. But so I've always done that in my career. So the Freedom Street, getting back to your question, was all coming from that place. That's sort of what the Freedom Street was about and things of that nature.

14:20I've just always had that political direction in myself. I read a book recently, and it was mentioning all of these guys that they were, you know, they were speaking out for black, independent, a lot of these younger musicians. And I was a little bit, wait a minute, where's me? I was doing this a long time ago. Yeah. But anyway, that's all one record. So that was the freedom, Sweden. You were mentioning a lot of the black ballads that you would early on include in your sets. It's interesting to me that kind of equal to those was your love of show tunes or tunes that might have appeared. I've heard you talk about, you know, for instance, you've seen the movie Swing Time when you were about six years old with Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers and A Fine Romance being a song that always stuck with you.

15:31Oh, yeah. How important were those sorts of songs to you as well? Well, I don't know. I guess if you look back, you might say, You know, gee, how did you like that and still want to change the way the society was set up? But in those days, our television was the movies every week. So I had a chance to see a lot of Hollywood movies. There was nothing in jail with me. For instance, my favorite composer, and I had many of them, but my favorite guy was Jerome Kern. Oh, yeah. Oh, man, Jerome Kern is still my favorite of those Hollywood composers, although I have many of them that I admire deeply. But Jerome Kern was our man.

16:36By the way, he did do that picture with Fred and Ginger Rogers. Right. Swing time. That was his tune, A Fine Romance and all those other songs. Yeah, all that stuff, all that. And so many of his stuff. But there was never anything that made those not accessible in my mind. I loved springtime and stretch film as much as I hated the fact that I couldn't go into Bloomberg's, which was a big department store on 125th Street, and they were buying a soda or something at the bar. You know, my musical and my sensitivity being moved by these things, it's all the same. It's nothing different, not to them, to somebody that might write those, I might say, oh, they don't like jazz or something.

17:49I've heard that. I've heard a guy that plays with Johnny Green who wrote Body and Soul. I heard him tell me that, oh, well, Johnny Green didn't like jazz. People were playing his music. You know, which to me, I wonder if that was really true because when Johnny Green was in college, he had a group called the Hot Jazz. I mean, so you know, a lot of these guys gave that impression of, oh, our music is better than your music. Yeah. You know, this kind of stuff, which might not have really been true. And then again, if Johnny Green didn't like you guys playing his tunes, oh, well. You know, maybe in a sense, all the better that you guys were doing it.

18:53Well, I think it did, but whether he liked it or not, nobody could play body and soul like Coleman Hawkins. Yeah. That was his masterpiece. But it really was perfect for jazz, like so many of those songs are. Anyway, I like everything that makes beautiful musical sounds, and beautiful musical people. It's all the same to me. I never had a problem when I was listening to some of those early movies, by the way, when Louis Armstrong did a single in the movie. Now, evidently, there's a lot of people that they don't want that America. They want America, which is... segregated. And that's okay. I mean, it's not okay with me, but I have to accept what they think because that's the way it has turned out.

20:07But growing up, I appreciated Paul Robeson and all these people were my really idols. And I wanted to be a regular human being without having to be a black human being and so on and so forth. So it all made sense to me. It still does. I'm smart enough to realize that in history, It's always people fighting each other. This group is fighting that. They're fighting this. They're fighting that. And we haven't gotten to that point yet. Or I don't think we may ever get to that point in this world. I've made my life what it is. I like horror movies, the music. And I love jazz and really nothing strange about that combination.

21:16Did movies continue throughout your career to be a source of inspiration to you? Yes, up until the point that I stopped going to movies. But yeah, I would say so. I mean, the American dream was always in me. And racism and all of this stuff somehow can never stop me from liking I'm old-fashioned.

21:52We'll be right back with more of our conversation with Sonny Rollins after the break. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at an Oocla speed test, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity, even in times of high demand.

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25:21Toyota, let's go places. You just said that the American dream is always in you. What does that mean to you? Well, it means that there's a good and there's a not so good. Like Duke Ellington said when they asked Duke Ellington, well, gee, Duke, what do you think about this kind of music and that? And Duke was known to say there's only two kinds of music, good music and bad music. and that told it all. Nothing else. On that note, would you mind if I read to you an excerpt of something you wrote in your journals from around 1959? Okay. Surprised me because I haven't read my journals or my big book, but go ahead, yeah.

26:27Okay, great. Well, I'm sorry if this upsets you all. Let me know. But I think it's really beautiful. You say, even if there are more brilliant, quote unquote, jazz in the modern interpretations of the word, more brilliant jazz artists and innovators among the, quote unquote, Negro race, this in no way contradicts the quasi racial nature of jazz. and mustn't we start speaking of music, all caps, and not jazz? Cannot this be the same principle by which people are diluted into divisions? Divisions which are treacherously misleading by their external manifestations. Who can deny that the greatest of any music is of a oneness which transcends period, style, country, etc.?

27:21It is the same line of reasoning which separates people on the basis of their physical impressions. The point to be absorbed here is that any definition which seeks to separate Bach from Miles Davis is defeating its own purpose of clarification. Thus, we shall now hereafter and henceforth integrate, if you will, the word jazz into the word music. The musings of Miles is then the bouncing of Bach both played against each other. Uh-huh. Well, okay, but you know, that's exactly how I feel. Yeah. It seems to be a core part of you, that belief, because just as you said now, you wrote back in 1959 in the same way, that it's all, one, not to be discerned by period or style or country or race.

28:14Oh no, I think so But that may be a little bit too I don't know, heavenly or something like that I mean, maybe the world is just not Meant to be like that Maybe the world is meant to be fighting And fighting all the time But that's okay I didn't make the world, I'm not God So if the world is like this, there must be some reason that I am not attuned to. I don't know everything. But the world has produced, and jazz and the whole thing, if you want to go further and talk about America, okay. And I think that's America too, but evidently America is not all. Everybody doesn't think like that, which is sad, but I have to just accept it.

29:30And I've seen people get along. That's one thing. I've got a lot of white friends, so that's what I think. So for me, it was a great environment. My life was playing music and trying to get better. I could have been better, but I always loved it, and I still love it. I still love Coleman Hawkins' Body and Soul, and I still love Jerome Kern. I still love Nat King Cole, the trail, the King Cole trail. Yeah, yeah, with Israel on base. Right. So, I mean, it's all good, man, especially at this point in my life when I'm the last one standing. I want that to be my epitaph. I loved it all. I loved it all You just referenced being the last man standing As we're speaking, you know, Benny Golson just passed away Right And that really does make you the last of that fine day in Harlem photo Yeah Which is astonishing Astonishing is a good word It is astonishing What came up in you when you heard Benny Golson had left the planet?

31:06Well, when it came down to Benny and myself, at that point, you know, I had thought of all the what it meant and what it didn't mean and what it could mean and all that stuff. So it wasn't. And one of us had to go. It's okay. I mean, you know, my time is probably quite soon now, I guess. But, you know, I feel okay about it. I haven't done everything I wanted to do, but I guess the fact that you're interviewing me here, and I guess I've done some things, I've got some things right, that everything right. I've got something right that I can be grateful for. I do have a very strong spiritual connection in my life now.

32:10As you know, I've been into Eastern religion for a long time now. So, you know, that makes things really okay. You know, so whatever comes, hey, it's okay. Do you have a daily spiritual practice these days? Well, yes, I do, but it's not like a prayer or something like that. I do say prayers, but not a specific prayer. You know, I went to India back in the 60s, and I got some information there from people that had something to say that interested me. I wanted to know about, should I be practicing and playing? And, you know, in other words, was it all okay, what my life was at that time? And I got assurance that it was okay.

33:19I needed that assurance. I received it from some beautiful people I met over there. So, yes, that spirituality is, as of now, I'm so happy that I did begin studying Eastern religion. I did that when I followed this guy, Paramahansa Yogananda, Autobiography of a Yogi, which was a very popular book. And I read that book and said, boy, I've got to find out about this. And I went to California wanting to meet Paramahansa Yogananda. He had just passed on. But so I didn't meet him, but I realized, well, look, I'm going to India because there's something here. And I got a bag and my horn, and I went to India.

34:32Wow. It paid off. So glad I did it and learned something. And you passed it to us. In your music, your music always feels very spiritually elevated. Just in terms of the biographical details of your life, that's something that people are very interested in. So it's something that's a gift that you've given all of us. So thank you so much. Well, thank you so much for saying that. I love men. I'm not my biggest fan, so I'm not a guy that thinks that, oh, I'm Sonny Rollins. Get out of here. I'm not my biggest fan at all. That's how we started the conversation about listening to my own music and all that.

35:22But I didn't get it all, but I made an impression and I think I've learned something. I'm glad that some people have appreciated some of my work, yeah. But I'm very happy by that. But not that I appreciated it, but that I enabled them to get it, which validated me. Because as you know, I'm not my biggest fan. if you come to my house you won't find portraits of me all over the world okay? yeah I get that sense you do not appear to be that person oh good okay I'm glad you got that sense I'm not that guy last time we spoke I neglected to ask you about Rufus Harley bagpipe player Right. What are your remembrances of him and his playing?

36:31I always loved Wilbur Smith playing. When I heard him playing, I know he played saxophone before. Yeah. He got into the back bars. But anyway, he was a great musician. I think I had a great concert in New York at Town Hall with Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Mingus, Rufus Harley, and myself. I forgot. That was my wife, my dear departed wife, Lucille, who convinced all of those people to make that concert because one of the people had dropped out. and that was an important concert just for my reputation and all that kind of stuff. And she got Mingus. She was good friends with Mingus' wife, Sue. And so she got Mingus, which is not easy to get Mingus to do something he doesn't want to do.

37:48and then she got Dizzy come and make that show that night. And of course you and Dizzy were great friends. Did you and Mingus get along? Oh yeah. I mean as much as one would get along with Mingus. We had a little trouble in the beginning because Mingus didn't know me and I was playing in one of the clubs, and he was playing at it. You know, there's something that Max Roach and Mingus used to do. I guess other guys did it. I didn't know because I was a young guy coming onto the scene. If there were two people on the bill, and Mingus would get on the stage, they'd play the whole night. The whole night, Max would do that too, I've seen.

38:46Max do that, do two guys. So it's kind of a... But you know, you have to accept it. I did, but I got back at Mingus one time, at the Village Vanguard, when Mingus didn't play. And Max Gordon called me up, and I said, sure. and I came up and that sort of caught a little rest between Mingus and I let's see who else this guy Baraka do you know him? yeah, the critic, writer, critic right, he was in the club and they all thought that I was sort of usurping, you know, Mingus' him and everything to play that gig, which should have been his gig. But it gave me a chance to get back at Mingus. And after that, Mingus and I became close friends.