Sonny Rollins

0:06Pushkin. This is an iHeart Podcast. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at Ooclas Speedtest. And they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. That's your business, Supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the U.S.

0:48where you can see the sky. Best network based on analysis by Ukla of Speedtest Intelligence Data 1H 2025. Every great music conversation goes beyond the surface. The influence that shaped an artist's sound. The moment that changed their creative direction. The story behind the story that fans never hear. Claude helps you discover those deeper connections. Upload interviews, liner notes, or music journalism, and Claude reveals patterns across an artist's entire journey, showing how influences become innovations. Whether you're a music journalist, passionate fan, or someone who loves understanding creative processes, Claude matches your curiosity about what really drives great artists.

1:29Try Claude for free at claude.ai slash brokenrecord. This episode of Broken Record is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Traveling is one of life's greatest joys. Honestly, can anything be more exhilarating? Well, actually, yeah, with Chase Sapphire Reserve. It's your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. First, you will earn eight times points on all purchases through Chase Travel. And the card gets you into Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide and access to one-of-a-kind experiences. Whether you are booking a once-in-a-lifetime trip or your next weekend escape, Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com slash sapphire reserve.

2:11Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Terms apply. Hey, everyone. Today we're continuing our celebration of Black Music Month with one of my all-time favorites, jazz legend Sonny Rollins. Rollins is dubbed the saxophone Colossus. He's an American tenor and composer who is widely regarded as one of the most influential jazz musicians ever. With several awards under his belt, a Grammy Award for Lifetime Achievement and the National Medal of Arts, to name a few, some even venture to call him the greatest living improviser. Sadly, now at 91 years old, Rollins no longer plays as a result of pulmonary fibrosis.

2:57But he is able to look back at an eight-decade career that took him all the way from the beginnings of bebop to playing with the Rolling Stones and all over the world. On today's episode, I spoke to Sonny Rollins by phone about one of his first big gigs at 18, way back in 1949, playing alongside other jazz icons like Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. He also explains why he no longer actively listens to music. And for the first time ever, how Charlie Parker is the reason he kicked drugs. This is Broken Record. Liner Notes for the Digital Age. I'm Justin Richman. Here's my phone conversation with the great Sonny Rollins.

3:40I want to talk about early in your career. You were 18 years old in 1949. That was your first professional date. And the first that I can figure was with Babs Gonzalez on St. Louis Blues. Does that seem true? I know that I began recording in the late 40s. So I would imagine that that might be true. I can't verify exactly. Do you remember Babs Gonzalez pretty well? Oh, sure. Babs Gonzalez was like a character. You know, I remember Babs very well. Babs liked my playing a lot. And I used to make some of these gigs that Babs and Gonzalez had, pile up a lot of resistors in the club, and we'd go down to Philly, or we'd go up to Boston, or places in the immediate area, and play.

4:45so I got a chance to play with some of my idols. I got a chance to play with Fats Navarro. I want to bring that up. The same year when you're still 18, you got to play on some pretty incredible Bud Powell records. Whale, Bouncing with Bud, 52nd Street theme, Dance of the Infidels. I mean, just real, real classics. And you're playing on there with Fats, with Fats Navarro, the amazing trumpet player. It's insane. Yeah, I know. I mean, I guess I had too many thoughts in my head to even stop and realize what I was doing. Oh, but, you know, so this is, I credit Vam Gonzalez for doing that. With getting me on a lot of jobs with, first of all, I think.

5:38I'm sorry, I can't remember something, but some of the best players around played with some of these young. And I was a young, young kid. And having an opportunity to play with them was tremendous. At 18, playing with people like Bud Powell and Fats Navarro, were you nervous at all? Well, I was too stupid to be nervous. That might be a good thing. I always felt that if they wanted me there, then I'll just, you know, that I should be there. I was never really one of these guys that felt intimidated. I just felt, well, look, if they want me to be here, then I'm just, you know, I guess I'm supposed to be here.

6:33So it wasn't bad. So I went on and did what I did. But it was certainly not on the level with J.J. Johnson and all of these people that I was playing with when I was a teenager. Right. I mean, Roy Haynes, who we thankfully, just like you, we still have around these days. He was on those Bud Powell sessions as well, the drummer Roy Haynes. Do you ever have the urge to call someone like that these days and just sort of confirm that these things actually happened? I called Roy up on his birthdays, and I always call him up and we talk about things that we can both remember. So Roy, I know Roy, we know we were a bunch of young kids wanting to play music, and Roy moved up in our neighborhood up on Silver Hill, they call it.

7:35We all knew him, and then Roy was playing with Lester Young. You must have loved Lester. I mean, I can imagine Lester must have been an inspiration for you. Lester Young was God, you know? And it was so good to get to know Lester Young and to know that Lester Young liked me because we used to be up in Lester's apartment at the Alvin Hotel up on Broadway, and guys would be less than look out the window and if were some guys coming musicians, he would call down and tell the guys, no, say I'm not home. So a lot of people came to see him, but he didn't abide everybody. And he liked me. He liked me and Max Roach used to come by there.

8:28and I got a good friendship with the great prayers. And that gave me a lot of validation that I was doing something right. Yeah, absolutely. I'm realizing Rory has a birthday coming up in a few days here, so I guess you'll be probably calling him, huh? Oh, yeah. I didn't know it was coming up here. I'll find out about it. And I will definitely call him. Definitely, yeah. Yeah. Man, Roy will be 2097. You're 91 now. How long ago does an experience like that feel at this point? Like, does it even feel like it was in the same lifetime? Well, yes and no. You know, it was, no. No, that's a tough question because a lifetime means, you know, last week could be a different lifetime in a way of speaking.

9:31Yeah, sure. In a way, it's a different lifetime, yes, but still it was a lifetime which I was involved in, so it's not that different. But, yes, it was different in so many ways, different musicians around, different venues around. You know, so lifetime is a difficult word. Since I believe in reincarnation, I accept reincarnation. So maybe when you say it was a different lifetime, it brings up too many contradictory things to be able to answer that precisely. No, I see what you mean. I see what you mean. I was watching an interview you did the other night in 1962 on Ralph Gleason's show that he used to have, Jazz Casual.

10:21You were the same age during the filming of that that I am now. You're 32. And you were referring to yourself as old in that taping. You refer to yourself as kind of like an old cat now. I'm curious what advice you might give yourself at 32 now. You know, I've made so many mistakes in life. I've done some good things in life. You know, I was learning. It was a learning experience. I think I was born a fairly positive person. He used to call me the jester when I was a little boy and playing. So I think I had a positive personality all through my life. You know, that's what we think, and it's good, but things happen to us.

11:15We get tested in life, and it's a long trip, you know, and I've known so many people that didn't make it all the way and ended up in terrible situations. I was talking about my friend who's a great drummer from Chicago named Ike Day. I played with Ike Day when I was in Chicago, back in 1949. He was strung out on drugs, and I was sort of strung out on drugs at the time. So that was a different world, but it was one of those rivers I had to cross. so that it's hard to look back. You know, I made a lot of mistakes in life. I did some things in life, like my music. I was always trying to get better.

12:16But as I said, I was a guy that wasn't afraid of trying to do something and playing with superior musicians and all of that. No, you definitely did. Because, you know, I thought that I should be there. They wanted me to be there. We have to learn. We have to try to be the golden rule and all that stuff. Got to try to do it. We don't get it now. We have to try it again. Like they said in the TV commercial, pay me now or pay me later.

12:52I'm going to start quoting that. Yeah, man. You got to get it right. you can't do anything and get away with it you gotta get it right you don't get it right now you're gonna have to get it right later because you reap what you sow see some of these things are very important to remember that what life is about life is to find out the reason for life what does it mean and that goes on and on man And who knows how many lives we have to live? Could we be a billion trillion? Who knows? I don't know. But I know that you can't get it generally in one lifetime. Some people are really advanced that I read in life.

13:44I say, wow, their journey, they know a lot more than I do. Then some people, I'm ahead of some other people in their journeys. I say, wow, I've learned some things this guy hasn't learned, or this girl hasn't learned. All of these things mean something. We're going to take a quick break here, but we'll be back with more from Sonny Rollins. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at Oocla Speedtest, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage.

14:36With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity, even in times of high demand. With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients. And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite-to-mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business, Supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the U.S.

15:17where you can see the sky. Best network based on analysis by Ukla of Speedtest Intelligence Data 1H 2025. The greatest music stories aren't always in the songs themselves. They're in the late night studio sessions, the chance encounters, and the cultural moments that shaped entire movements. For music lovers who find themselves going down rabbit holes about their favorite artists, Claude, an AI thinking partner, helps you explore those deeper questions. Whether you're wondering about the connections between different scenes, trying to understand what drove a particular creative period, or exploring how social movements influenced sound, Claude works through these complex cultural puzzles with you.

15:58It's built for people who know that understanding music means understanding the human stories behind it. Claude doesn't just compile facts. It helps you see patterns across decades of music history, ask the kinds of follow-up questions that reveal deeper truths, and works through the nuanced relationships between artists, movements, and moments. Whether you're a music journalist, industry professional, or someone who just lives for understanding the stories behind the sounds, Claude matches your level of curiosity about what really drives great art. Try Claude for free at claude.ai slash brokenrecord and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner.

16:35This episode of Broken Record is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Everybody loves to travel, right? We can getaways, a once-in-a-lifetime vacation, all of it. And no matter where you're going, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. Travel is its own reward, you know. You're out there having experiences you can't have any other way, and with your Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you're also being rewarded. You earn eight times points on all purchases through Chase Travel. So let's say you book a trip to Hawaii, you go surfing at Sunset Beach, you go hiking on a volcano, and you go out to dinner.

17:11With the Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you're actually earning points for going on a grand adventure anywhere you go, any trip you take. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets you into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide and access to one-of-a-kind experiences like music festivals and sports events. Whether you're booking your next big trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve makes travel more rewarding. Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com slash sapphire reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval.

17:45Terms apply. We're back with more from Sonny Rollins. You know, I'm thinking about what you've sowed musically, and that certainly is more than I think many people, you know, whatever contribute to one lifetime. And I was thinking about the year, in particular, 1956 for you. That year, you played a date with Miles Davis that included Charlie Parker. Do you remember that date? Oh, yeah. Collector's items. Collector's items, exactly. You played Serpent's Tooth. Did you interact with Bird much on that session? Well, Bird was another one of my gods. So, of course, there was a lot. Well, there were some other things happening on that particular session.

18:31And, well, I guess I might as well say it. At that time, I was still on drugs. So I hadn't seen Charlie Parker in a while. So he said, oh, I said, so, sonny. So I told him, I think he said, yeah, how are you doing? I think he meant I've got my life together. And I told him, oh, yeah, yeah, man, I'm doing good, you know. So I lied to him. I wasn't doing good. And some guys in the band, later on during the session, they ratted on me. They said, oh, man, Sonny was out getting high with us last night. So anyway, later on in the session, after he found out that I had lied to him, I noticed something in him.

19:20how destroyed he was, how despondent he was to know that I had. And not just me, then I realized, man, Bird was so involved with all of the young musicians trying to follow his music and his lifestyle. Yeah. It was killing him. The drugs and all that, yeah. Yeah, knowing that all these young guys were using drugs. It was killing him. It was killing him, and I saw that at that session. So, you know what? I said, okay, that's it. I said this to myself. I'm going to get off of drugs and show Charlie Parker that he shouldn't be so down because some people are following his positive effect on their life, not the negative effect.

20:17and that's when I made my decision to get off of drugs. Wow, I didn't know that. I had no idea. Yeah, well, that's part of this life that I'm living here. Yeah, yeah. So actually, you know what? I got off of drugs. I didn't know whether you need to know all of that, but it wasn't easy. It's very fascinating. Did you ever get a chance to tell Charlie that you got clean? Okay, well, what happened was this. There was a drug rehabilitation place in Lexington, Kentucky. It was the first place where it was like the Betty Ford Clinic, before the Betty Ford Clinic. And a lot of people were there, people that were into drugs, movie stars were there.

21:06We were treated like patients, not as criminals. anyway so i was there for the cure the cure was i've been four months i i left lexington in 55 55 that's when i was uh discharged or whatever you want to call it but the uh unfortunate that maybe so, maybe not. Part of it was that Charlie Parker passed away one month before I got out of Lexington, Kentucky. So I never got the chance in which I was waiting to do growing up in Burris. Hey, man, I'm straight, Charlie, I'm straight, man. I would convince him or he would know that I was so anxious because I was so ashamed of lying to him earlier on this record date he just recalled.

22:11So I was so anxious for this to happen. I would be able to see him and convince him that I wasn't going to disgrace him anymore. But unfortunately, that word denied me. however i do believe in things like the afterlife and all that stuff so i think charlie parker knew wherever he was at that oh sonny got my message yeah no definitely and it you know really when you think about it too it's pretty great timing that you got clean in 55, because I mean, in 56, your career is really insane. Your output. I'm thinking about, you know, you do Saxophone Colossus, Tenor Madness. You do Brilliant Corners with Delonious.

23:04You do a lot of your work with the Max Roach and Clifford Brown quintet. Just really incredible stuff is happening. I wanted to ask you that Brilliant Corners album with Delonious Monk, that record really blows my mind when I listen to it. It's like spectacularly complex, especially that title track. Do you remember, was that a tough session? A tough couple of sessions? Oh, it was a very tough session. Yeah. A very tough session. It was a little different than the music that Monk had played before, as I remember. It was a totally tough music, tough music. But everybody liked that record a lot.

23:39They always mention that when they're talking about Monk's accomplishments. Yeah. Did you enjoy playing on it? I think so. I think so. It was a hard record to make. You know, it was hard. Everybody didn't get it the first go around. But yeah, sure, it was playing with Monk. Playing with Monk was a celestial experience, whatever came out of it. And I had that experience. And everybody liked that record a great deal. I know Ernie Henry, another tenor player, he ended up leaving, I think, one of the sessions. and then Clark Terry came in to sort of play. Did you ever feel like leaving? Oh, no, no, no.

24:24Maybe if they kicked me out, but I'm not leaving on my own, no. You're not quitting. No. They'd have to show me the door. There was a lot of great people on that record. There was Oscar Pettiford was there, Max Roach, I believe, and Monk played the Chalet. I forget everybody that was on the record It was great It was a little different than some of the music You had done before So it was quite a Quite a landmark Yeah Can you tell me about playing in the Max Roach Clifford Brown quintet with yourself And George Morrow and Richie Powell It sounds to me like you guys had Incredible chemistry Did it feel that way to you at the time?

25:13Of course, I had played with Max a couple of times in New York, but when I was there, the band was Clifford, and he, it was different. I was doing more. I think I played as a sideman or something on some record with Max Rhodes in New York. But when I played with the band, that band, it was really, I don't know, I'm glad it sounded like that because I had a great experience playing with Clifford Brown. And Clifford was such a straight-up guy, was such a straight-up player, one of the best players as we know. When I look back today and I talk to different guys, all these young guys, Clifford Brown was their favorite trumpet player.

26:10So he was quite a guy, but he was also a great person. And I learned a lot from Clifford because Clifford was playing all of this music, but he was not a guy that was messing around with drugs. He wasn't that, you know? So I said to myself, wow, man, listen to all this music he can play, and it had nothing to do with his personal life. So you don't have to be using drugs or drinking a lot or anything like that to play as much music as he did. And that was inspirational to me, and I really learned that. that I said, wow, man, if Clifford can do it, man, all his music he's playing, I can do it. You don't need drugs to play.

27:05So he was a great, and we were good friends. I mean, you know, I was really close. After he passed away when we were playing in the band, and sometimes I channeled Clifford. I said, hey, Clifford, man, what should we do right here? I mean, I talked to him like that about the music. Wow. And then he'd answer me. And that went on for a while before that band broke up. Max got out the trumpet players, of course, but that happened for a while. And then after a while, I stopped channeling Clifford and let him go on his journey, his life journey. But I channeled him for a long time after he passed. And then, you know, we had to play the same music, a lot of the same music.

28:10We'll be right back with more from Sonny Rollins after a quick break. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at an OOCL speed test. And they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity, even in times of high demand.

28:54With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients. And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite-to-mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business, Supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the U.S. where you can see the sky. Best network based on analysis by Ukla of Speedtest Intelligence Data 1H 2025. The greatest music stories aren't always in the songs themselves.

29:36They're in the late night studio sessions, the chance encounters, and the cultural moments that shaped entire movements. For music lovers who find themselves going down rabbit holes about their favorite artists, Claude, an AI thinking partner, helps you explore those deeper questions. Whether you're wondering about the connections between different scenes, trying to understand what drove a particular creative period, or exploring how social movements influenced sound, Claude works through these complex cultural puzzles with you. It's built for people who know that understanding music means understanding the human stories behind it.

30:09Claude doesn't just compile facts. It helps you see patterns across decades of music history, ask the kinds of follow-up questions that reveal deeper truths, and works through the nuanced relationships between artists, movements, and moments. Whether you're a music journalist, industry professional, or someone who just lives for understanding the stories behind the sounds, Claude matches your level of curiosity about what really drives great art. Try Claude for free at Claude.ai slash Broken Record and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. This episode of Broken Record is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve.

30:45Everybody loves to travel, right? We can getaways, a once-in-a-lifetime vacation, all of it. And no matter where you're going, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. Travel is its own reward, you know. You're out there having experiences you can't have any other way, and with your Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you're also being rewarded. You earn eight times points on all purchases through Chase Travel. So let's say you book a trip to Hawaii, you go surfing at Sunset Beach, you go hiking on a volcano, and you go out to dinner. With the Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you're actually earning points for going on a grand adventure, anywhere you go, any trip you take.

31:24And that's not even mentioning how the card gets you into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide and access to one-of-a-kind experiences like music festivals and sports events. Whether you're booking your next big trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve makes travel more rewarding. Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com slash sapphire reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Terms apply. We're back with the rest of my conversation with Sonny Rollins. Do you remember where you were when you found out Clifford and Richie Powell passed away in that car accident?