In short
The New Pornographers discuss their album The Former Sight Of, focusing on how grief and loss shaped the record, plus songwriting process, melody/harmony choices, and Canadian indie-rock roots.
Guest backgrounds
Carl Newman and Catherine Calder are co-founders of The New Pornographers, formed in Vancouver in the late 1990s. They’ve made densely layered, melodic records for over two decades and are central to the Canadian indie rock scene that also produced artists like Nico Case and Destroyer.
Key claims
The album’s title draws on “former site” reservoir-town history and connects to songs changing over time. Newman says he became less precious about melody and now records/engineers more himself. He also claims “if something cannot be the loudest thing in the mix, it shouldn’t be there.” Calder describes the band’s collaborative process and how parts evolve between demos and final tracks.
Notable examples
“The Former Sight Of” (a church from West Hurley moved to a radio-church performance); “Wish You Could See Me, I’m Killing It” (flowers bought for parents’ graves); “Ballad of the Last Payphone” (NYC’s last payphone as a relic of what’s gone); “Spooky Action” (Cassini-Huygens probe, quantum entanglement, and connection after loss).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Story Behind 'The Former Site Of'
3:22 to 6:05
Carl shares the narrative and themes of the song related to loss and change.
“And I wrote the song, The Former Sight Of, about that, which is about a church, about a preacher who decides he's going to stay with the church.”
Evolution of Songwriting Style
6:05 to 7:48
Carl discusses how his songwriting has evolved from early albums to the new one.
“Not like I'm trying to write Glory Days by Springsteen or anything, but I just wanted songs that were a little clearer.”
Exploring 'Wish You Could See Me'
7:48 to 11:40
Insights into the creation and emotional depth of the song 'Wish You Could See Me'.
“That's interesting because this album to me was, the writing felt different, not on every song, but...”
Changes in Melody Writing
11:40 to 14:00
Discussion on how Carl has become less precious about melody in his songwriting process.
“What came across to me was the narrator felt a little foolish, a little overwhelmed.”
Exploring Melodies and Songwriting
14:00 to 18:43
Learn about the creative process behind songwriting and melody selection.
“Before, were you a writer who just got the harmony down for the song and then pulled the melody out of that?”
Transformations in Song Arrangement
21:02 to 28:00
Insights into how songs evolve through collaboration in a band setting.
“What was your first reaction and what did you think you could add?”
Exploring Themes of Connection and Departure
28:00 to 30:26
The discussion revolves around the emotional depth of a song related to the Cassini-Huygens probe, touching on themes of connection, loss, and acceptance.
“But the subtext in my brain was that quantum entanglement, the idea that you're connected with something and you're never, you're always connected with it.”
The Creative Process Behind Songwriting
30:26 to 35:58
An exploration of the songwriting process, including research and inspirations drawn from personal experiences and literary influences.
Facing Mortality and Finding Beauty
35:58 to 38:20
A poignant reflection on mortality, personal loss, and the beauty in accepting life's inevitable endings through the lens of a friend's battle with cancer.
“Yeah, just, like, the song and the record that is the most absolutely autobiographical, it's called, like, Bonus Mai Tai.”
The Intersection of Technology and Nostalgia in Music
40:57 to 42:01
A discussion on how the New Pornographers' music reflects a sense of nostalgia for old technologies amidst contemporary themes.
“In partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel.”
Show all 18 chapters
Reflections on Nostalgia and Music
42:01 to 43:24
Explore how personal history and nostalgia influence the New Pornographers' music.
“To me, I always get that sense with new pornographers that like, it's this very up to date band, but the sense of loss over these kind of old technologies fading away.”
Musical Roots and Family Influence
43:24 to 46:06
Discuss the musical tastes and influences from family and early exposure to music.
“So I think that's how I hold, that's how I heard other music.”
Discovering a Passion for Music
46:06 to 49:46
Learn about the journey from listening to music to picking up an instrument and writing songs.
“Yeah, I bought NME, you know, religiously, was always interested about what was going on there.”
The Shift to Performing and Persistence
49:46 to 53:52
Delve into the transition from casual playing to performing and the persistence in music despite challenges.
“You're really selling this album, I have to say.”
Inspiration from Other Artists
53:52 to 54:54
Hear about how watching other musicians inspired a commitment to music as a life pursuit.
“And I was very inspired by watching them, not only because they were good, but there was a sense of music as a life pursuit.”
Transitioning to Performance
54:54 to 56:05
Discuss the transition to performing live and the dynamics between band members.
“in Bell of the Last Payphone saw himself in the Last Payphone in the Museum of the City of New York.”
Reflection on the Last Payphone
56:05 to 59:16
Exploration of the significance of the last payphone and its cultural resonance.
Reflection on the Last Payphone
1:00:06 to 1:01:19
Exploration of the significance of the last payphone and its cultural resonance.
“And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:06Justin Richmond:Pushkin.
0:10Justin Richmond:The new pornographers have never been easy to pin down. Since forming in Vancouver in the late 90s, the band became one of the defining acts of the Canadian indie rock explosion. The part of a scene that also produced Nico Case, Destroyer, and a generation of artists who seemed to operate entirely outside the commercial mainstream. Co-founders Carl Newman and Catherine Calder have spent more than two decades making records that are densely layered, relentlessly melodic, and somehow both euphoric and melancholic at the same time. Their latest album, The Former Sight Of, draws on a different kind of raw material.
0:45Justin Richmond:Part of it came from a friend's terminal illness and the weight of watching someone you love reckon with time running out. Part of it came from something more unexpected, the last remaining payphone in New York City, which became a kind of anchor image for the record, a physical object standing in for everything we hold on to after it stops being useful. On today's episode, Bruce Hedlum sits down with Carl Newman and Catherine Calder to talk about what their new album came from, what it's like to make something beautiful out of grief, and how the Canadian music scene that shaped them still runs through everything they do.
1:21Justin Richmond:This is Broken Record. Real musicians, real conversations.
1:28This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.
1:33Justin Richmond:I just got back from an amazing family vacation in Northern California. It was the perfect reset for our busy lives. Now, if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be listing your space on Airbnb. It's a smart, practical way to make use of your place while you're away and earn some extra cash at the same time. And with the co-host network, you could hire a local co-host to handle everything like managing reservations, guest communication, and even styling your space. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. Need to pay a friend back for festival tickets or a morning coffee run? Apple Cash makes it simple.
2:09Just tap plus in the Messages app to find Apple Cash. No need to jump between apps or search for usernames. It's a private and secure way to send money. Send cash right in the chat with Apple Cash. Apple Cash services are provided by Green Dot Bank. Member FDIC. Terms apply.
2:32The future won't wait, and neither should you. That's why American Public University offers master's programs designed for momentum, affordable, high quality, and flexible, so you keep moving forward. With career-relevant programs in business, healthcare, education, IT, and more, you can gain skills you can use right away and the confidence to power your next move. American Public University, made for what's next. Learn more at apu.apus.edu.
3:06Justin Richmond:Here's Bruce Hedlum with Carl Newman and Catherine Calder. Head over to youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast if you want to see the video. So tell me, first of all, about the name of the new album and explain that to me, the former site of. Well, I have a great answer. It's kind of a long answer. living in upstate New York um I would drive past the reservoirs they have you know which is where New York City water comes from and the Cretton Reservoir the nearby the one near us the Ashokan Reservoir has a sign next to it that says the former site of West Hurley and when I saw that sign I was kind of fascinated like what happened to West Hurley and I started looking into the history and around like 1905 new york decided you know we need these areas for the reservoirs so they they got towns to just uproot and leave and they said we'll buy your property but if you won't sell it to us well we're going to take it anyway so you might as well sell it to us so um parts of the towns just got raised and then anything they wanted to save they put the cars on wagons or I'm sorry, they put the buildings on wagons and took them away.
4:18And so I was fascinated by that idea. And I wrote the song, The Former Sight Of, about that, which is about a church, about a preacher who decides he's going to stay with the church. It's like, I'm just going to, and the water is rising around him and he's sitting on the roof and he's about to die because he's going to be flooded. And I thought that was an interesting little story to try and tell. And I also thought, like, with all the changes the bands have gone, has gone through, through the years, to call our record The Former Sight Of. And on the record, it basically reads as The Former Sight Of, The New Pornographers.
5:07I thought it was a kind of, you know, it was a slight slightly i slightly ironic but a but an element of truth there um about you know various things that have changed through the years good and bad and um and also just my my urge to always want to change you know like i i want i want the pornographers to be something different um but the the weird uh p.s to that story that is um we just played wdst a radio station outside of woodstock and it's in a church and i found out right before we started playing that it was a church that had actually been moved from west hurley oh wow so it was essentially we were playing we were playing this song about the church in west hurley inside that actual church that used to be in west hurley which i thought was kind of mind-blowing yeah for people like me who bought your first album when it came out and been following you along tell me what's changed in your songwriting between those early days and this new album um well i mean i know what's changed in my songwriting in the last few years, I think I decided to write very narrative songs on this album or a lot more narrative songs, songs that were clearer.
6:41Not like I'm trying to write Glory Days by Springsteen or anything, but I just wanted songs that were a little clearer. I think if I was trying to write like anyone, I'd say Leonard Cohen. you know like the the pictures he paints in like suzanne or sisters of mercy um which is a kind of high thing to shoot for but you got to shoot for something high and um so that's different to me and also like i'm i know how to i never used to know anything about engineering i used to stand behind john collins our bass player and say do this do this can you make it do this and and now I can do a lot of stuff on my own um which which I love because it means like I can you know any given day I can just go to my studio space and just work for a couple hours and engineer and I like I can I can do everything now um except play instruments well but it's rock and roll music so I can get away with not doing that and plus I have other people that can play instruments well.
7:50That's interesting because this album to me was, the writing felt different, not on every song, but... Oh, to me, it feels very different. Yeah. But, you know, I think of your songs, you know, particularly on your big albums, like Brill Bruisers or Morse Code, they're very linear songs. They start with a big hook, they go to, you know, verse, chorus, middle eight, they're often quite different this one felt like it was built differently like it was built in layers almost um yeah i i think that i mean i like i don't i wouldn't call it a concept album but i think i i i wanted it to all fit together um i wanted it to feel i wanted to have a similar feel i wanted it lyrically and have a similar feel i mean even to the extent that the final song the former site of like name checks characters from the previous songs like i just wanted to have um you know i think i've said to people i wanted it to feel a little bit like a little book of short stories but that feels like a slightly pretentious thing to say but that's i guess you gotta yeah shoot for maximum you know pretense it's a very pretentious thing to say yes that's what makes it work yes um well some of you some of these songs reminded me of particular short stories uh the um i want to get the title right and i always write these things down uh wish you could see me i'm killing it tell me about that song um i mean that one is essentially just something very real that happened that i think i just fictionalized slightly and it was both of my parents have passed away and a few years ago I was I was at the flower store near the the graveyard the cemetery and I was buying flowers and I and I got this really nice you know bouquet from my mom and then I was looking for my dad and I started thinking like he didn't care about flowers you know so I I bought him I bought him like flowers that were quite as nice as my mom's because i just thought like he he doesn't care he like my dad would be like no what are you spending flower you know why would you spend 40 getting me flowers get get those ones that are on sale and and then that just made it just made me think about how we talk i guess how we talk to the dead which is even a line one of one of the last lines in the former site of um we find our own ways to talk to the dead um and then from there i started thinking about you know it was a song it was a song about that but then it became more about this person who's who has spent so long buying flowers for his parents graves that that he knows a lot about flowers now and he can and he can tell you and he can tell you but flower arranging.
10:56So there's something kind of darkly comic in there, but it's also meant to be kind of a knife to the gut. It's one of the few songs I think I've ever written. I almost made myself cry writing it. And it's also the line, like, I wish you could see me, I'm killing it, is a little like, like I'm not exactly sure what I meant. You know, like it means both. I wish you could see everything I've done, but it also it also means I'm kind of, you know, I don't think I'm killing it. I could use some help. But yeah. What came across to me was the narrator felt a little foolish, a little overwhelmed. Yeah.
11:48Yeah. I think there's that. But yeah, I felt very happy about that song. You know what it reminded me of? And now that I know the origin of the song, it has nothing to do with it. The James Joyce story, Araby. Do you know that story? No, no. Oh, it's in Dubliners. It's a kid who goes to a little fair to buy a present for this girl he likes. And he's overwhelmed. It's getting dark. The fair is closing. And he can't buy anything. and he just uh there's this terrible line at the end when he feels like i think a creature a creature derided by vanity i think is the line and just kind of that sense of being a little overwhelmed yeah i think i think i think there is that i think there is that that element of it um yeah because that ultimately i didn't i don't know anything about flowers you know but uh But I guess this character I was trying to write kind of does.
12:50Did writing more narratively, did that change the melody writing at all? It did. We were just talking about that last night. I think I just became less precious about melody. where like like i would write a melody and then when the melody met the when the melody met the lyrics and when they both met performance like whatever i had to change to make it feel better i would is that different for you before you came in with it yeah i think i i think i used to think like this is this is the melody i wrote and sometimes it'd be like it's hard to sing it's like, well, you know, I guess I'll go into falsetto and sing it, you know, like, like I would bend around whatever the melody was on this one and maybe on the last one as well.
13:43And on the one before that, I think, I think about a few years ago, I started thinking, just change the melody and just sing what feels good. The first song I remember doing that on was a song called Falling Down the Stairs of Your smile from morseco to break lights i remember i wasn't sure about it and then i just i just sang i just sang it again i just wanted to find it yeah because i remember i wanted to drop it i was in her her husband colin um mixed it and um i remember saying like this isn't working on a drop and him turning around going this is the best song on the record and i said okay well i guess i should finish shit and yeah and i just i just i just sang it until i found something that felt good singing and i thought and then that really worked it became like the single and i think it was the best song in the record and uh and i think i carried that in the continue as a guest and on this record i mean there's an infinite amount of melodies i mean it's nice it's maddening but But it's just, there are so many melodies.
14:51Like, why not change the melody? It's like... Before, were you a writer who just got the harmony down for the song and then pulled the melody out of that? I don't know. I think I usually started with a melody. Really? Yeah, it seems like you do. Like chords in a melody. or sometimes I would just kind of sing something just like into my phone, into my voice notes. And then I'd go and play the chords, go, what are the chords of this? Sometimes I hate to find out what the chords are. Sometimes it ruins it. Really? Sometimes you think you've come up with something really interesting. It's like, oh, the chords are G, C, and D.
15:39That's so boring. But then it's amazing. when you realize, oh yeah, the chords are C minor and A minor. That's weird. You know? This album also felt a little, fewer chords in this album, maybe a little less harmonically complex than some of your earlier albums. Yeah, I think that. Although there's still, when I play the songs now, there's more chords than I think there are. like you know like for for us like a song that doesn't have very many chords is six chords right you know but you know Lou Reed said any more than two chords is jazz um so I'm um I think another thing I've done and tried to do in the last decade was just see how much you can move around with not very many chords.
16:36Because, you know, just like there are infinite amounts of melodies, there are kind of infinite places you can go within two chords. Like sometimes I just like the cycle back and forth between like G and A, just two chords that are just a step apart. And there's so much you can do. You know, you can write, you can write a hundred songs that are different, that are just cycling back and forth between A and G. There's so many things you can change. The tempo, the way it's syncopated, the melody, just the vibe. It's great to hear you say that, because I think a lot of musicians fear the opposite, that they only know a few chords, there are only 12 notes, maybe it's all been done.
17:28well i that really annoys me you know um i think it's just laziness you know i think if you can't figure out how to do it and you don't want to figure out how to do it i don't know what to tell you you know um do you work hard at songwriting is something you do every day yeah i do i try to i mean i feel like it's part of like i think it's part of like you know mental health process you know like i think i think it's good just to um to use your brain you know like uh in some ways it doesn't feel that dissimilar to going on new york times spelling bee you know like like like i'm trying to find an answer you know like i've but it's a puzzle it's a puzzle i invented you know it's a it's an amorphous puzzle that i invented and i'm like how do you solve this puzzle?
18:23And like, I know there's an answer. Yeah. By the way, the panogram today is befouled. Just want you to know. Oh, I know that. I've already done it. Okay. Well, there you go. Genius, by the way. Not Queen Bee, but it was a pretty easy one today.
18:35Justin Richmond:Yeah, that wasn't so hard. We'll be back with more from the new pornographers after the break. I just got back from an amazing family vacation in Northern California. After years of trips to large cities, my wife and I took off north with the kids to Marin, just north of San Francisco, where we spent all of our time in Redwood Forest hiking places like Bear Valley down to Stinson Beach. It was the perfect reset for our busy lives. Plus, the drive was long and car time with the kids always makes for magical moments. Trips like that are truly unforgettable, and what makes it even better is booking your stays on Airbnb.
19:12Justin Richmond:Now, if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be listing your space on Airbnb. It's a smart, practical way to make use of your place while you're away and earn some extra cash at the same time. And with the Co-Host Network, you could hire a local co-host to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication, on-site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. You know that awkward feeling when you have to ask a friend to pay you back for a dinner or a night out?
19:49Apple Cash makes it so much easier. Everything happens right where you're already talking in the Messages app. I just tap plus to find Apple Cash and settle up with a text. And once you're settled up, you can spend the money you receive anywhere Apple Pay is accepted. Plus, it's private and secure, with every one of your transactions protected by Face ID, Touch ID, or passcode. Whether it's splitting dinner or paying someone back for a trip, it's just so easy to use Apple Cash. Apple Cash services are provided by Green Dot Bank. Member FDIC. Terms apply. The future won't wait, and neither should you.
20:29That's why American Public University offers master's programs designed for momentum, affordable, high quality, and flexible, so you keep moving forward. With career-relevant programs in business, healthcare, education, IT, and more, you can gain skills you can use right away and the confidence to power your next move. American Public University, made for what's next. Learn more at apu.apus.edu. So, Catherine, when you saw these songs, because you present them to the band, right? Yeah. Yeah. Not all together. No, but what did you think? What was your first reaction and what did you think you could add?
21:14I don't know. I just, I guess I approach these songs when Carl sends them to me with a kind of a sense of, I'll just do what comes to me and I'll send it back. We'll see how it goes. Knowing that, you know, a lot of things are going to change between the time I've listened to that version of the song and the final version. Because I've been in a band with Carl for over 20 years now. Yeah. And I know the process and the process itself hasn't changed that much. No. Like over the, you know, except from now, you know, I'm more able to do things from my own house, which is awesome. Because it means I have more personal control over what I'm doing.
22:01And my knowledge has increased. Like to be able to do that kind of like you were just saying, you know, you can record on your own and now so can I. And that wasn't the case when I first joined the band. So that personally has changed. But yeah, I just expect unexpected twists and turns and adjust accordingly. And I love it. And it usually comes, like I think Catherine and Todd Fancy and John Collins, I mean, I think they all kind of like know how I work or maybe not how I want to work, but just how I'm doomed to work. and they will they will always send me like a bunch of ideas for a song like fancy never gives me a full take like he will play a cool guitar part and it only it's only in the first 45 seconds because i think he knows like like what's the point like like if if i if i find something that he did that i totally love i will go back and go can you do a full take of that and and usually i I will like paste it up and, and I'll do that with something Catherine plays or, or John plays.
23:09I'll just be, this is cool. And sometimes it, it's sometimes it changes the song. Sometimes I'll go like, that's the only good thing. That keyboard thing Catherine did is the only good thing in the song. You know, I'll be like the, the, the keyboard you've got. So we got the keyboard and the, and the beat and, you know, it's just, you know, yeah, they're just, you know, they're like tools. What was the song on this album that underwent the biggest transformation once people got their parts back to you? I have no idea. I cannot remember. I think it's always, it's like, it goes on for so long and I'm always like working on things and, you know, they don't remember.
23:59You know, I'm sure. Maybe spooky action. Spooky Action went, yeah, that went through a big transformation, actually. That one definitely did. Yes, I'm glad you caught that one. I remember that one felt like it was hard to get. Like, it was a lot of things happening, but it was hard to make it smooth and interesting. and sometimes you get to a point where you have too many ideas at the end of an album i feel like there's a lot of muting you're taking things out yeah um do you do that more now this album felt a little airier a little less yeah yeah a little less heavy complicated than some of your other records yeah but i but i think ironically i think that kind of makes it a little more a little more complicated you know i think it's uh it's just less less noisy well one thing i one thing i've thought about in the last few years which might be the most obvious thing in the world but i just learned it or i don't know if it's something i can say i learned but it's it's it's a theory i have and it is that if something cannot be the loudest thing in the mix it shouldn't be in there wow like like because so many times through the years have been like oh this part is cool but oh it's not it's too loud you know like pull it down and you know and you're burying things and i just thought no if if it can't be the loudest thing it shouldn't be there you know if if something if yeah if something's going to bother you if it's too loud and it's to me it seems screamingly obvious now.
25:53Like, yeah, it probably shouldn't be in the mix. And that's helpful to me because when you listen to an album on different stereos, it always sounds different. Or if you listen to like the album playing in the next room, it sounds different. So on this record, I feel like I've eliminated that because now I listen to it and I go, well, that sounds louder and that sounds quieter, but who cares? Do you ever have experienced someone's playing a song in another room and you can't tell what the song is, but it sounds really cool. And then when you hear it, it's almost a little bit of a disappointment.
26:25Wasn't that how Eno invented ambient music? Oh, I don't know. Yeah, apparently he was in like a hospital or something and he just heard some like music playing like far in the distance and he couldn't tell what it was. And he just thought that was a cool effect. Right. That's how you invent a genre. Just a bunch of music you can barely hear. and it's like, what if all the music was meant to be barely heard? You mentioned spooky action. Tell me about that. It's got a very vivid narrative. Well, that's good. That's the one song my wife said she couldn't figure out what was going on. Well, I was reading about a couple of things.
27:10I was reading about quantum entanglement, and Einstein said that quantum entanglement was spooky action at a distance, which I thought was an interesting turn of phrase. And then, unrelated to that, I was reading an article about the Cassini-Huygens probe, which was circling Saturn for 13 years and taking pictures of it, and that's how we know so much about everything that's going on around there. and then at the end of it it you know immolated itself and they flew it into saturn and it burned and the idea was that it would be a song about like the last moments of the cassini higens probe where for some reason it's sentient i guess just artistic license but the idea of like what's what's it thinking right before it dies and i thought the last thing it would think would be like wow this is beautiful you know just looking looking at everything around it that that's basically the the little snapshot i wanted it to be why is that such a sad thing the idea of the space pro it's done all its work and then just like it heads into the planet to burn up i find it's just an incredibly sad image really i mean i guess it kind of is but i also um I mean, there's not much of it.
28:36There's not much of it in the song. Only one line. But the subtext in my brain was that quantum entanglement, the idea that you're connected with something and you're never, you're always connected with it. There could be billions of miles between you, but you're still connected to it. Is it kind of like a beautiful idea? And it made me think of like the idea of heaven. of uh people we've lost um how we're always connected and so uh there's a line in the song where it was like like a it i guess it's the part in the song where it flies into saturn and it was like a series of nail-biting dives and i'm done i'm on the cloud and the with the the double meaning uh being that uh all the information inside castini higens is on the cloud like like the machine is is gone but everything it learned is you know on the literal cloud and then but then the idea of like the cloud like heaven right so um so it's kind of a i think it's kind of a spiritual song and i think the uh the the line about like have you seen it the way it's meant to be seen is supposed to be a very hopeful line i think it's just a very another way of saying stop and smell the roses um that the cassini higens probe isn't sad to die you know it's just look at how beautiful this is like i'm gonna go now which seems like a you know that's how i'd like to depart this earth i think what a beautiful place see you later okay i in both the cases of the songs we've talked about you've come up with an initial idea from the sign from this from reading einstein where a lot of people get their lyrics by the way from einstein well i wasn't reading einstein it was like it was like an article somewhere you know i'm sure i clicked on it it was it was probably like a smart person clickbait okay spooky action what's this prostate trouble oh no no i have my email address curse them yeah uh now i'm getting all these democrats asking me for money uh but then but then you do a lot of research because you mention all the stars you mentioned the things that yeah it would have seen yeah and in the other case you you looked at what those communities would have been like and you describe yeah which was new to me is that new to you yeah i've never done i've never done research like into into songs um like yeah i i would just try and find like you know because yeah i have a vague idea of like this you know the weird story i'm trying to tell but then i'm i'm like i need some details to make this you know just to surround it with and then in spooky action i looked up like oh and some of it was just you just try and find things that sounded cool like the arc of daftness that's cool keeler's edge that's cool the lone propeller it's like what's the lone propeller oh it's it was made by moonlets and it's like oh that's cool um that should be its own song the lone propeller that's a great title yeah well i guess it can be next album i'm a i'm allowed to do that but i doubt i will i think i've exhausted everything i have to say on the matter with with the 80 words i wrote you know um so tell me about um uh ballad of the last payphone yeah that was um yeah that was that was another one i was just i was just reading about um the last payphone in new york city and I thought um did you go see it you can see it at the Museum of New York yes exactly I hope they cleaned it up because yeah I remember those old pay phones those are pretty I'm sure they did um but um again I was talking about this last night um there was a even though I'm I'm not a big Raymond Carver expert.
33:02I read this little five-page short story called Fat. It was about this waitress in bed at night with her boyfriend, and she's talking about this overweight man she served. And she can't put it into words what fascinated her about him. And she doesn't even know why she's talking about him. I think her boyfriend is like, what are you talking about? and um but you're reading it and you know like oh she she relates to this man somehow there's something there's something in him that she sees in herself but she she can't figure it out so i was thinking of that and and instead of that it was this guy who goes to see the last payphone in the museum of the city of new york and he's looking at it and he can't quite figure out why he's so fascinated by the last payphone.
33:53But to me, it seems very obvious because the last payphone got left behind. It used to be important. It used to be a big part of the world. And then now it's in a museum. Now it's just like a relic. And I thought, to me, it seems pretty easy why a person might... It's not so different from the satellite story. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're all meant to be like very, very similar. I mean, like to me, like I wanted them all to be kind of stories about loss and acceptance. Like when you start with loss, yeah, it makes it seem like it's very sad. But was that something that emerged from the stories or something when you sat down, you wrote loss at the top of the paper and said, no, no.
34:45I think it just emerged. why do you think it emerged now I don't know I mean maybe it's just maybe it's just like getting older just trying to figure out life it's just but it really was just wasn't really conscious I mean what I was consciously trying to write only came together as it took form on its own and I began I began to see that there were, there was a connection between the things I was writing. Like I had to go back myself. But I mean, I think that's also, I mean, that's what I struggle with. I mean, having struggled with like mental health, I think that those are, those are strong feelings like trying to, you know, trying to come out the other side, trying, trying to be happy.
35:46you know, trying to figure out what can I do to be happy. And one of the things you have to do to be happy, I think, is just, like, ride with all the loss and tragedy in your life, you know?
36:02Yeah, just, like, the song and the record that is the most absolutely autobiographical, it's called, like, Bonus Mai Tai. It's about my friend Cheryl, who died of cancer. and it was about the first time I saw her and I was so shocked that um she had already seemingly accepted like she had spent she had spent months dealing with the fact that she was going to die soon and I was talking to her and she was very and she was very very like matter of fact about like how like oh I'm worried about I'm worried about Warren she was worried about her husband who's like an old old friend of mine and like what's what's you know how's he gonna deal with me dying and she uh they always made drinks they were the couple that would always have like different drinks when you came over and that night they made my ties and i just thought like you're going through this hell in your life but you're still making my ties for your friends and they're coming over and you know i think we both got a mai tai and she said um you know like i should have i should have died four months ago everybody thought i was going to die four months ago because it was so bad and you know this is my bonus time on earth and so like this is a bonus mai tai and we're going like cheers you know drinking on mai tais and um um but i just thought how like what it's it's sad but there was a kind of there's a kind of beauty to how people face the inevitable you know it's like everybody's everybody's going to die and you can put your head in the sand and say no not me i'm you know i'm gonna be like some comedian said i'm gonna be immortal and so far so good you know yeah um so uh i think i think that's a i think that's in a i think there is something just yeah beautiful about figuring out how to like you know how to how to end how to how to deal with things ending
38:20Justin Richmond:one last break and we'll be back with the new pornographers
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41:02For Iowa, 1-800-BETS-OFF. For Puerto Rico, 1-800-981-0023. In partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel. You know, the songs, particularly Spooky Action, the payphone song, they remind me, you always have a lot of technology in your songs. Do I? Well, you have like twin cinemas, which is, when I was a kid, I remember the first time there was a twin cinema, and nobody could, you can go and choose what movie you could see. That seemed incredible. Of course, they were always showing the same one on both screens when you got there. Yes, exactly. But brake lights, things like that. And they're sort of the kind of old-fashioned technology.
41:43That's what I sort of like about it in your songs. Yeah, I mean, I think I can see that. Yeah. And it makes me think, you know, it almost reminds me of the Kinks. You know how the Kinks were like a modern band, but they always seemed to be singing about things that were like 30 or 40 years old? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. To me, I always get that sense with new pornographers that like, it's this very up to date band, but the sense of loss over these kind of old technologies fading away. I always got that from your music. Yeah, I mean, I can see that. Yeah, like even though it's incredibly obtuse and obscure, I think the song Electric Version is kind of about that.
42:26Although I couldn't even tell you what the lyrics are right now. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know why that is. I mean, I do think I come, I come from a kind of like culturally, I feel like I, being a kid in the seventies, I remember watching the reruns were from the fifties. So I had like one culturally, I had like one foot in this weird black and white past where I was watching, I love Lucy and the Andy Griffith show and, and things like that. And, um, and also my parents were like, I was, I was the youngest of five kids. So it was like the, uh, my parents were like, were from a generation, like basically before rock and roll, you know, like, like, I think my mom was a young mother, you know, I think she had a baby when Elvis showed up, you know, she might've had a newborn.
43:27so like they were so there was this whole like you know that there was like my life but like my parents like to me seemed to come from a distant past okay what what record albums did you have at home growing up uh you mean like that i bought or no no your parents bought i'm always i'm always fascinated that people because well they like they like country music oh really okay most people i know like they would they'd have like the sound of music soundtrack no they were not at all they were it was it was country music i remember my mom like charlie pride and i still love those charlie pride records um she like really liked freddie fender you know she liked uh she just liked country music i remember we had a k-tel country music record that i absolutely loved um you know i had like you know i beg your pardon i never promised you a rose garden yeah like i i still love that that met that countrypolitan is still my favorite uh country music like charlie rich what was the big charlie rich hit hey did you happen to see the most beautiful girl uh i love that um behind closed doors wasn't that one of his yeah yeah uh we had a best of waylon jennings record i remember um which i didn't know was outlaw country it just seemed like more country to me.
44:49But I had older brothers and sisters. So I think that's how I hold, that's how I heard other music. Like when I was like nine or 10, I had an older brother who bought Nevermind the Bollocks and Talking Head 77. So there was music. I remember, and because of them, I remember the White Album was around or like Wings Greatest Hits. Like there wasn't a ton, it wasn't a ton of music my my sister who was closest to me really liked pat benatar and she liked you know ario speedwagon high infidelity and i thought that was cool too but you didn't start playing till much later right i didn't start i didn't pick up a guitar until i was 18 and but around the age of 16 that's when i think i decided that that music was a big part of my personality and i i became obsessed with rem like murmur and reckoning and chronic town and i loved the smiths and i loved echoing the bunny men and i loved violent fems and husker doing the replacements and whoever you know one of the advantages i felt like a nerd but i was super cool when i look back at what i was listening to i just thought one of the advantages growing up in canada is you just got a lot more english bands and you got them much earlier than Americans did.
46:03I think it's possible, being part of the Commonwealth. Yeah, I bought NME, you know, religiously, was always interested about what was going on there. I mean, the queen was on our money. I didn't understand disliking the queen, but at least I knew like who they were talking about when they said, when the sex pistols talk about God save the queen, it's like, I've seen her. Yeah, God save her. Was there one song, was there one album that made you think, that made you pick up the guitar and think, I can do this? No, I just had, I loved music. And I had a friend who just when I was 18 said, hey, I'll show you how to play a few chords.
46:50He showed me how to play E, A, and D. And he said, okay, now you can play Gloria by them. And I thought, that's cool. And then I realized that E, A, and D, I could also play Superman, the the song rem covered there was no 60s song right yeah covered by the click and um which i learned years later uh and then i think i i bought a easy guitar beatles songbook and i think that's where i learned most of my chords but even easy guitar beatles was still like every chord you know you were learning C7 and C minor, you know, C sharp minor. And so when did the writing start? I think, I don't know. It was, I'm not even sure if you'd call it writing.
47:43I think I would just, I would just like mess around on the guitar. Like I remember getting super into, there was a point where all I, I'm not sure if I started playing with anybody yet, but I became obsessed with the Pixies and throwing muses. There was a six month period where I honestly don't think I listened to anything except Pixies and throwing muses. And there was some, especially with throwing muses, there was something cool and angular there. I realized I could just pick up a guitar and I didn't even have to learn scales. You know, I could just like make rhythmic noise. Like I can almost play like random notes, but if you do them, If I play these five random notes, but I keep doing it every few bars, like that's a part.
48:29You know, it felt like that's what the throwing muses do. And then the Pixies, I realized like it was the first music that I absolutely loved where I could break it apart and figure out what the parts were. It's like, okay, well, the bass is doing that simple thing and the guitar is just doing that simple thing and the drums are doing that and the guitar is just going you know it's just making cool simple melodies and that was what i think made me think i wanted to try making music but i was not serious about it that i it even occurred to me to imitate the pixies or imitate throwing muses and i start um my friend started a band it was called superconductor because we thought it was a stupid name, which was a very 90s thing to do.
49:22This is the worst name. Let's start a band to go with this terrible name. And we ended up having six guitar players because six guys who played guitar showed up. And then nobody wanted to sing. And I realized like, oh, maybe I'm the singer. And I never thought about being a singer in the band, but it was almost like, i don't i don't know why you know i i i've been thinking about it recently how like about things being almost predestined like like how like how much of your life is pre-will sorry pre-will like that works too pre-will pre-will kind of the same yeah um i like to live pre-will uh it's my favorite era um i was into pre-love that was my thing yeah exactly uh but the uh because i've just becoming the singer in the band i just fell into it and it just it just happened and i never i never intended it and i i look i look at myself playing music through the years and i can't figure out why I kept going because for the first few years I wasn't very good I was I wasn't really taking it seriously um but I kept doing it like I want was this in your 20s yeah like early 20s well what were you were you at school at that point were you doing other things that you were more serious about I was I was at school but I was a terrible student you know I'm just a general loser.
51:01Wow. You know. You're really selling this album, I have to say. But I think, but you know, I think I was a loser because I was kind of not listening to what my fate was. You know, I think I was clearly being called towards something. And which is kind of my point. And that like, Like I would do these shows where there's nobody there and we weren't very good. But yet, none of that, it bummed me out. But not enough that I would stop. And there are so many things that I've been bad at in my life that made me think I don't ever want to do that again. Because I hate being bad at it. But music, I just kept moving in that direction.
51:46Now, was Vancouver a good place to be for that? Was there a scene? Were there good clubs? Were there places you could go? Or did people want to hear new music? I think so. Well, I think there's just, you know, you have groups of people that like music. I think that's where it starts. You collect in the city and you realize you're the people that go to the same shows. Or maybe they all work at the same record store or something like that. And at some point somebody says, oh, maybe we should start a band because we like the fall and Mud Honey and Sonic Youth or whatever, you know. um and yeah so i mean i think every city has that and you have you know you have that kind of group of people and i don't know if every city has that girls that you're in love with and that group of people and you know and then there are people that have their weird little clubs there people have their weird little record stores and clubs that let you play um so it was good that way but nothing nothing really important was coming out of it but you know it's i don't think that's that is important it was just a place for people to start it was people a place for people like me just to kind of start playing people like me and pornographers and destroyer and black mountain a place just for those people to start playing music and see what happens and some people drop out i i used to think it was so strange that people quit quit playing music like somebody i knew from the scene who had a band that was going for years and one day they said no i'm going back to school and they abandoned music forever and i thought what you know and i and i that's when i realized oh people are doing this for different reasons like like like some people are starting a band because they want to become popular and if they don't become popular it's like what's the point and i realized no i was not that person i was a person what person were you then what what allowed you to persevere i well again i i think it was i had no choice it was just the direction i was moving in um it never occurred to me to stop and i i loved it i loved the idea of it as a a life pursuit i remember seeing the band the sun city girls play in a radio station.
54:11And I was very inspired by watching them, not only because they were good, but there was a sense of music as a life pursuit. Like they didn't care if they were popular. I could just sense this love of music. And I remember seeing this songwriter from San Francisco named Barbara Manning, and she gave me the same feeling. Like she is doing this for the love of it. And that was inspiring to me. And so I think I thought that's me. Like maybe I saw, and I must have saw myself. I think I saw myself in the Sun City Girls and Barbara Manning the same way that guy in Bell of the Last Payphone saw himself in the Last Payphone in the Museum of the City of New York.
55:00That's a big sentence.
55:04That is a big sentence Yes Do you guys want to play a little? Yeah let's try I'm sorry Catherine I didn't get over to you I wanted to ask you about No no no There's still time It's all good It is And if we screw up we can I'm sensing what rehearsals must be like Like what? Let you chat why don't we do payphone because we've been talking about it we've got something like a segue right
55:44one two three four
56:05I had to see it with my very eyes At the museum of the city of New York It had the offhand brace That you will find In the last ones left alive They took it from Times Square in May Little fanfare or paid respect Yeah, first comes love, then comes pity Then it's terminal, velocity Nothing major, man It's just the last paid for Nothing major, man It's just the last paid phone I had to see it with my very eyes But some advice from the just left behind Reverse the charges I tried, but it had no lightning inside Did you get a good look at their face? Cause often thieves have not gone very far And they're not strangers, they rarely are And they're not strangers, they rarely are Nothing major, man It's just the last paid form Nothing major, man It's just the last paid form Nothing major, man It's just the last paid form Nothing major, man It's just the last payphone
58:37Yeah, first comes love Then comes pity Then it's terminal Lost city
58:57Yeah, first comes love, then comes pity, then it's terminal, the lost city.
59:16I like the sound of like the gears moving around inside that thing. I was trying to be quiet. Sounds like a machine. New Pornographers, thank you so much. Carl, Catherine, thank you for coming in. It's been just wonderful. Thank you. In the episode description,
59:31Justin Richmond:you'll find a link to a playlist of our favorite songs from the New Pornographers. Be sure to check out youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast to see all our video interviews. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at The Broken Record Pod. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. our engineer is Ben Holliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month.
1:00:03Justin Richmond:Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.
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From the publisher
The New Pornographers have never been easy to pin down. Since forming in Vancouver in the late ’90s, the band became one of the defining acts of the Canadian indie rock explosion. They’re part of a scene that also produced Neko Case, Dan Bejar, and a generation of artists who seemed to operate entirely outside the commercial mainstream. Co-founders Carl Newman and Kathryn Calder have spent more than two decades making records that sound like they arrived fully formed: densely layered, relentlessly melodic, and somehow both euphoric and melancholy at the same time.
Their latest album, The Former Site Of, draws on a different kind of raw material. Part of it came from a friend’s terminal illness and the weight of watching someone you love reckon with time running out. Part of it came from something more unexpected: the last remaining payphone in New York City, which became a kind of anchor image for the record, a physical object standing in for everything we hold onto after it stops being useful.
On today’s episode, Bruce Headlam sits down with Carl Newman and Kathryn Calder to talk about where their new album came from, what it’s like to make something beautiful out of grief, and how the Canadian music scene that shaped them still runs through everything they do.
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