Tommy Emmanuel

14:11Malcolm Gladwell:And he said, sure. And he opened the door and let me in, right? So Stevie's got his back to the door and he's jamming away with this machine and he suddenly quoted the guitar solo from Memphis, Tennessee. Do-do-do-do-do-do. The original guitar solo. He quoted it. He says, hey, guitar player, I'm back there behind him. He knew it was me. It was unbelievable. Anyway, what he was doing was programming the Lynn drum machine before it was even completely invented kind of thing. He was programming this piece of technology. It looked like a homemade computer. Wow. And he was in there doing stuff, showed me how it worked and played along with it.

14:57Malcolm Gladwell:And here, you try it, you know. Did you actually try it? I mean, no. You know, you just watched him. Wow. Yeah. Wow. He was amazing. And the best part of this story is 15 years later, 1995, I was at LAX airport about to get on a plane. I needed to go into the men's room for a minute. And I walked into the public toilet and there was this big tall guy standing by the door of one of the cubicles. And I recognized him. And I said, I know you. I met you like that. And a voice in the cubicle said, that's the guitar player from Australia. Get out of here. Yeah. Can you believe that? He knew my voice.

15:41Malcolm Gladwell:Instantly.

15:42Rick Rubin:Instantly. That level of, to be able to recall something like that. And not only just recall your voice, but then also that anecdote of you entering the room and there's like a sense that he, that has to be tied to some of his musical.

15:55Malcolm Gladwell:We don't know the kind of abilities that a man like that has who's been blind since he was young. And his abilities and his senses are on a well spiritual level that are almost otherworldly. So you can hear it the moment you hear him sing and play. You know, oh boy, look out, there's something going on here. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why we all love our Stevie Wonder, because there's never been anybody like him. Him and Ray Charles. Oh, my God. Where would we be without them? Yeah. Musically. Musically, yeah. We'd be... There'd be a big hole, put it that way.

16:38Rick Rubin:Talk about black and whites of color. Exactly. Yeah. Was that the tour? I think in the States on that... That was the tour where he was lobbying to get the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday in the States, too, right? the 1980 probably was and i think and he in the at least in the states i don't know if in australia he had um um in a square circle album was it well maybe would have been uh um master blaster it was

17:07Malcolm Gladwell:master blaster master blaster yeah because every night we got up and played uh with with with him in the band because when he heard john farnham sing he said you got to come and you guys are Got to come and join us and we'll do something together. And Ben Bridges was Stevie's guitar player. And he invited me to plug into his gear. And we just jammed together on, happy birthday to you. And then we were into Master Blaster. Amazing. It was awesome. Dennis Davis was playing drums. And he was so nice to work with, too. and our drummer, David Jones, jumped up on the kit and Dennis just took off one of the toms and just danced around and played the tom while our drummer played.

17:59Malcolm Gladwell:You know, it was just, that's what it was like in those days. See, if you found somebody that you really click with, you got together, you know. What a dream. What a dream scenario. It was unbelievable. Well, this story could go on because the last show was in Perth and the next day was Billy Joel in Australia for the first time. All right. And so we were all staying in the same hotel. So I got to meet Billy and his band and everything and we all hung up. And then after the show, the hotel put ropes across the bar area, so the public had to stay out. And we hang around the piano here, so there was me and Ben and David Brown from Billy Joel's band.

18:49Malcolm Gladwell:There was Billy, Stevie, and John Farnham at the piano. We were just jamming tunes. And Stevie Wonder knew most of Billy Joel's songs. What? He could sing them. Yeah. It was unbelievable. That's an amazing... It's pretty wild. I would wish... It was a long time ago. I wish that were recorded. That's one of those things. You know, it's the same thing with the day that I met Chet Atkins and we played together. There was a cassette player with a microphone set up on the table and neither of us thought to record it. You know, we played for hours and never recorded it. Do you remember what you played?

19:40Malcolm Gladwell:Was it repertoire or was it just... It was tunes that were popular kind of jazz tunes, you know, like Lover Come Back to Me and Caravan and tunes like that.

19:54Rick Rubin:You do a great version of Caravan on... You had a trio record passing through from a few years ago. Oh, yeah. Oh, you know about that.

20:03Malcolm Gladwell:Yeah, yeah. With you, it's you. Me and Ian. And Ian Date. And... Fiddler, Ian. Ian Cooper. Yeah. The incredible violin player. You guys have great... You guys play off each other wonderfully. That was recorded in a heartbeat, that whole album. Yeah. Yeah. Just put it together quickly and... It's a great album.

20:25Rick Rubin:All that stuff. Thanks. But playing with Chet, I mean, playing with Chet, that must have... That had to be... We were nurses.

20:32Malcolm Gladwell:It was one of the greatest days of my life, you know. I'll just never forget it. And, you know, when I was a little boy, and I'm trying to collect Chet Atkins records and all that, and I had a little portable turntable with a speaker in it that my mum had given me. And I said many times, I'm going to meet him and we're going to play together like that. And I'm just a kid, you know. My mother said, I believe you will. You just keep at it. I believe you will. And sure enough, I ended up writing him a fan letter. I was 11. I wrote this fan letter telling him that I was listening to his music and trying to work it out and all that.

21:20Malcolm Gladwell:And could he send me a photograph with an autograph on it? And about two months later, I came home from school and my mom said, go into your room. There's something on your bed. And there was this big brown envelope and it had American Eagle kind of stamps. And, you know, my heart started going like this. And it was a letter from Chet with a black and white photograph signed to me. Incredible. And, yeah, I remember when I opened it, it was just like pristine, you know. It had RCA Victor from the desk of Chet Atkins all written in gold at the top of this thing. It was all typed out and his signature on the bottom.

22:06Malcolm Gladwell:All the way from America to Australia. It had to feel incredible. To nowhere in Australia. I was just a kid going to school in a little town called Parks in Australia. But I was already dreaming. I'd already seen coming over here. You know what I mean? I'd already dreamt it and had that vision in my mind. Yeah. And this is what leads me when I'm talking with young guys now who, you know, they want to be doing what I'm doing. They want to be a concert player. They want to get out there and tour the world and all that. And I always say, you know, where's your vision? Where do you see yourself? Where do you belong?

22:52Malcolm Gladwell:You know? because I always knew I was a concert player. I just didn't know how I was going to get there. And I had to do the hard road. I had to play every musical situation I could. I had to play where people didn't listen to you. I had to play in bars where I was underage and all that. I had to play for free a lot. I had to play for food and all that kind of stuff. And I ran away from school when I was 15 because it was a waste of time to me. I needed to get to work. Yeah. And your mom understood that? No, I broke her heart. Yeah, because she wanted me to finish high school and get a high school certificate.

23:43Malcolm Gladwell:And I was more interested in going to Sydney to play with the big boys.

23:47Rick Rubin:who were the like and who in sydney would have been the people you were wanting to go play with

23:52Malcolm Gladwell:at that time well nobody who could really play what i wanted like the the the kind of style that i i play but people who knew more about music than i did that's for sure yeah and so um the next best thing to go into nashville well it's what you could do yeah in a way well i just wanted i just wanted to i was hungry for knowledge i was hungry for it and i still am you know and i'm hungry for experience as well because uh yeah you you can't play anything meaningful without experiencing life yeah you know yeah and uh that's why when we listen to a teenager like stevie wonder was playing, you are the sunshine of my life.

24:42You know, how does he do that?

24:45Malcolm Gladwell:It's a gift. It's otherworldly, you know. So anyway, I wanted to move to Sydney and I got some people to help me get down there and I rented a room. I got a day job and then I auditioned for different artists and stuff, and people laughed. They just outwardly laughed when I walked in for the audition because I was a 15-year-old kid. And, you know, who do you think you are? What do you think you're going to do? Well, let's just play the music and, you know, and I knew all the songs. I knew all the vocal harmonies. I knew I could quote the record if it was a song I'd learned from a record, and I was ready to go.

25:35Rick Rubin:and electric at that point.

25:37Malcolm Gladwell:Electric, yeah.

25:39Rick Rubin:Did you, I mean, and it was quite an interesting road to what you're doing now. So when you had that vision as a kid, the youth of concert playing, was it more in the, who was it in the vein of at that time? If you had to imagine it.

25:57Malcolm Gladwell:Well, when I played tunes, I was playing kind of a Chet Atkins type style. But I was listening to Gordon Lightfoot, Neil Diamond, Carole King, James Taylor in the 70s. I mean, I was, and Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles, Jerry Reed, you know, people like that. I was listening to, and I was listening to what was on the radio, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones and all. When I was young, I thought the Rolling Stones and the Beatles were so out of tune, you know, and I just couldn't understand it because I was so used to listening to Chet Atkins, who was so in tune. It was unbelievable, you know, and you listen to a Stevie Wonder record and his vocal is so unbelievable.

26:51Malcolm Gladwell:And, you know, and when you hear guys playing in and out and singing in and out of tune, it's kind of weird, you know. What do you think about it? Now I totally love everything they've ever done. And I totally get it. But when I was young, I mean, that's the only filter I had. Yeah. You know?

27:09Rick Rubin:Is the difference between when you're a young kind of hot shot player and you're listening to Chet Atkins and it's precision and it's beautiful. There's a lot of soul in Chet too, but it's clearly there's that other bit of it that's just, you know, just another level of talent. and then you're listening to the Beatles and the Stones and it sounds slightly out of tune. Is that the difference between learning to be a player and learning to make records? I think the lesson, when I look back on it now,

27:37Malcolm Gladwell:was how good are the songs. You know what I mean? So I could tell you in my own recordings where I could have got the tuning a bit better, but the feeling on the track was exactly the right one and I was willing to live with it. And I think I learned that from hearing the Rolling Stones and going, that's a bit out of tune, but boy, doesn't it feel good? You know what I mean? I had to learn that. And like I was saying, you just got to grow up a little and see what works. I mean, it still bothers me when a person comes up to play for me and they're not in tune. It's like, hang on a sec, just take a second and tune up.

28:29Malcolm Gladwell:Or I have an artist who's opening for me on tour and I kind of say at the start of the run, make sure you check your tuning when you come out. And I'll do the same. And before I introduce you, I'll make sure I'm dead in tune and all that. So when we start to play, that it just is right on. And there's been quite a few people who opened for me who walked out and we went into it and it's like, that's how to tune. And they're smiling away and I'm like, no, no, no, this is not good enough. Oh, no. Yeah. But, yeah, tuning is so, it's so everything to me, you know. There are people like Paco De Lucia.

29:15Malcolm Gladwell:The last couple of times that I saw him, I didn't see him tune once, but I never heard anything at all, even the slightest bit out of tune. He was so perfect in his tuning and his playing and everything that, you know, it was otherworldly like Stevie Wonder. It was like Paco was just another one of those gifted, incredible guys, you know.

29:45Rick Rubin:One of those things you just can't explain probably, right?

29:47Malcolm Gladwell:Yeah, he's just, he's that good. It's on another level, you know. And you never see him, you know, looking at a tuner. He's just like, he's ready to play and away he goes and it's perfect. And then he goes into the next song and it's perfect again, you know.

30:08Rick Rubin:I was watching a video of him recently from, I think, 79 or maybe it was early 80s with John McLaughlin and Al DiMeola. But I think this one was just solo for some reason, or just the two. It was just Al and Paco. And one of the comments was, man, Paco just smoked Al. I was like, I don't think Al has a problem with that. I don't think Al was even trying.

30:32Malcolm Gladwell:Al's awesome, but there's only been one Paco. Insane. I worked with him in Germany, and I played the first hour, and he played the second hour. And I cried through the whole show. It brought me to tears. It affected me emotionally on a deep level that very rarely happens to me. But as soon as he started to play, I was totally gone.

31:04Rick Rubin:You know, when something like that happens for you, like, is there any part of you that consciously or unconsciously wants to or incorporate something from that into your own plane?

31:18Malcolm Gladwell:Of course. Of course. Emotions are such an important part of my show. I want people to forget their troubles. I want people to be engaged in a way that they're not thinking about money, health, the future, children or whatever. They're having a break from that. That's my job. My job is to take you out of your life that can be hard. and at least give you an hour and a half of respite from it. This is today's reprieve from stress and the strain of life. And so I definitely try to surprise people because surprise is a big element in entertainment. It's an important tool that everybody who's good at entertainment has surprise built in.

32:25Malcolm Gladwell:If you go back to Charlie Chaplin and the Marx Brothers or anybody like that, you'll see that the funniest part is when things don't turn out how you think or they just constantly surprise you. It's what I love about Penn and Teller. They do the same thing. And I think it was Penn who said, And, you know, what is entertainment? Well, surprise me. Surprise me. That's entertainment. Yeah, it's beautiful. And really, I try to keep things that simple, you know. And there are certain songs that I play that are designed to make you want to close your eyes and just go with it, you know, somewhere over the rainbow.

33:16Malcolm Gladwell:So that's a song that means so much to people. And I have a new song that I wrote for my youngest granddaughter. I'll play a little bit of it to you. And after I've been hosing the hell out of it and throwing all my stuff at everybody and getting the crowd going, now it's time for them to have a little break for a minute. So I just play this and I'll do it.

33:49Thank you.

34:23Thank you.

34:47Thank you.

35:39Malcolm Gladwell:that's cool it's just real simple yeah but once i start playing it everybody has that moment to be able to just Just go with it. Yeah, you know. Yeah, and I do when I'm playing it. I just go with it And there's no part of you that wants to Do more no, it doesn't need anything else It needs me to play it with as much expression as I can and take my time You know just tell the story. Yeah, that's really beautiful. Thank you. That's a little Georgia She's four years old And I wrote that for her for when she's like 45 and she can play that song and say, oh, it's who I really am. You know? So you, and did you set out to write that for her or was it?

36:30Malcolm Gladwell:I did. Yeah. When she was only tiny, you know, she's four now. She was probably two when I wrote that. I just had a vision kind of thing of the woman she might grow into, you know. We'll be back with more from Tommy Emanuel after the break.

36:54Tommy Emmanuel:Being a small business owner isn't just a career. It's a calling. Chase for Business knows how much heart and effort go into building something of your own. That's why we make your business growth our priority. Our team takes the time to understand your mission, where you are now and where you want to go. Our broad range of solutions is designed with you in mind so you can bring your ideas to life. From banking to payment acceptance to credit cards, you can conveniently manage all your business finances all in one place with our digital tools. Looking for tips and advice? Our online resources are always available to give you the solutions you need to help your business thrive.

37:25Tommy Emmanuel:See how your business can go farther with Chase for Business. Learn more at chase.com slash business. Chase for Business. Make more of what's yours. The Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JPMorgan Chase Bank N.A. Member FDIC. Copyright 2026. JPMorgan Chase & Company.

38:05Tommy Emmanuel:Don't subscribe to the Almanac of rap on Apple podcast, YouTube, or wherever you listen.

38:12Rick Rubin:I want to ask you about a few guitar players. Okay. And we can start with Paco since you were talking about him. Is there anything he was doing that night that brought you to tears that you can point to tech, like on the guitar in terms of whether it's harmonically or, or melodically or it was everything. It was absolutely,

38:35Malcolm Gladwell:everything. It was expression on an incredible level. It was tone. It was chords that were deep. It was stuff he was playing. It was just the ultimate experience for me. you know um and uh i couldn't point to one thing it was just everything okay you know there are some people like when i hear stevie ray vaughn and i hear that vibrato he's got and stuff like that and that's the tone that he plays stuff with wow it just touches me so much And I can hear his intense love for what he's doing in what he plays. And that goes for so many people out there. There are so many good musicians out there. And I'm just so grateful that people still want to see me play.

39:44Rick Rubin:Well, you're a wonderful player. And one of the people that you got to play with, it's one of my favorites. and a way you're part of that, his lineage is Lenny Bro. Oh, yeah. He's a guy a lot of people don't know about today, but a phenomenal player, interesting guy from what I've read.

40:07Malcolm Gladwell:What he did in Sweet Georgia Brown with Chet, let me see.

40:23And he goes...

40:57Malcolm Gladwell:And then away he went. He went off into Lenny land then, you know. Chet stopped playing and he played the whole thing, you know. Yeah, he was phenomenal. The day I was talking about when I met Chet in 1980, I met Lenny that day too. He was in Chet's office on the third level. I took him to his gig that night. Was he as wild as they say? He was freaked out. He's a beautiful soul. Wow. He was a beautiful person. And had a massive gift, you know. But he just, I think Lenny just saw the world through his own kind of filters. And it wasn't the real world, you know. meaning it just he was he was living by different yeah yeah the the lie is jazz players are supposed to work for peanuts and and and stay with all their friends and be down and out yeah i think that that's his of you know i know most of the good jazz players i know are exactly the opposite it they're great businessmen they play because they love it but they know how how to to work

42:22Rick Rubin:properly you know yeah but he modeled himself more after the charlie parker's the tortured

42:28Malcolm Gladwell:artist who couldn't quite that's what i was looking for yeah i think i think a lot of people around him who encouraged him and i think in his life he was um uh he was supposed to be the tortured genius.

42:46Rick Rubin:You know? And I want to ask about this about the playing too, but personality-wise, and I love that Chet and Lenny record. Oh, yeah. But they seem like they were just very... Chet seems like the exact opposite of that.

42:57Malcolm Gladwell:Totally. Chet was, but Chet had such a beautiful heart for people in need, you know? He helped everybody. You know, I'm just one of millions he helped, you know? Yeah. So he was a beautiful guy. After Chet died and everything, when they went through his desk and everything, they found little notes from, you know, Chet, can I have another$10 ,000? I promise I'll pay it back. Love Lenny. You know, Chet gave him money and stuff like that to help him out, you know.

43:33Rick Rubin:He's had a big heart for him.

43:35Malcolm Gladwell:Well, the last time I saw Lenny, he was playing at Dante's here in L.A. and I walked in and sat down and it was him playing that electric Kirk Sand with the extra high string. He had a bass player and a drummer and there were three people in the room, you know. It should have been 300. There were like three people in the room and I sat down and he was playing away and he looked up and he went like that because he recognized me like that. And then in the middle of whatever he was playing, Giant Steps or something, he quoted through, Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda. He did that in the middle of the solo.

44:20Malcolm Gladwell:A classic Australian. And then I went up and talked to him in the break and he seemed in really good shape. He was teaching at GIT in those days, which is Musicians Institute. and I thought he was going to really do well. He was gone not long after that in 1984.

44:44Rick Rubin:And what made Chet and Lenny's playing work? Because they are both, you wouldn't think, because they're so, they're own players

44:52Malcolm Gladwell:and they're so, they can both do a lot. Well, I can relate to it because when I play with people like Martin Taylor or Frank Vignola, who have a much bigger, bolder chord knowledge than I have, I'm the melody guy. You know what I mean? So if you think about what Chet played in that...

45:22Malcolm Gladwell:He played the singer's part. Lenny played...

45:38Malcolm Gladwell:He played all those beautiful shapes underneath, you know? Yeah. And I have the same experience, so I can relate to what... Chet, like me, he's a song player. We want to play like a singer, you know? Yeah. So first thing you've got to do is learn the melody right, as if it was being sung, and then find the person to give you the right chords underneath or learn them yourself and then show them to somebody. Like I remember when I learned the nearness of you, the first thing I did is listen to Ella Fitzgerald sing it and Frank Sinatra. They're like my two signs. You know, go this way and go that way and find which way works for you.

46:30Malcolm Gladwell:Yeah. You know, and then when I played it with Martin Taylor, he had some slightly more bebop changes in the section of the song. Let's see.

46:51Malcolm Gladwell:Here's this

47:16Malcolm Gladwell:See that? That's like that piano sound. Yes. Yeah. So the original was...

47:30Malcolm Gladwell:It went to that sound. Oh, no.

47:38Malcolm Gladwell:Like that. Yeah. So it was a little more orchestral sounding, you know. and I like that kind of piano thing, you know. Oh, you like what he did, yeah. Yeah, so when I play it with Martin, I play his changes because that's what he liked. When I play it with someone else, I try to remember their changes so they're in their zone, you know. Okay, okay. Yeah, and also the other thing that I think I learned from Chet was like when the bridge comes around, if you listen to the bridge in The Nearness of You, Ella Fitzgerald just sings it exactly almost how it was written. Da-da-da.

48:29Rick Rubin:Da-da-da.

48:40Malcolm Gladwell:Just as simple as that. I don't need to be going, you know, because I can do, you know, look at all this stuff I know. I purposely stay away from that, you know, to honor the song and to play the song right. Yeah. You know, there's guys out there. I remember the first time I saw George Benson. It was about 79. And George was just like, he was so damn good. It was like from the very first bar of the first song, your jaw hit the ground and it never came up. You know, it was so incredible. And I bought tickets to both shows that he did. He did a matinee and then an evening show. And I went to both shows.

49:25Malcolm Gladwell:And he was beyond anything I'd ever seen. Wow. You know, and he started with...

49:39Malcolm Gladwell:Yeah, all that stuff. But the stuff that he improvised to start the song, it just blew everyone away. Two of my dear friends who were teachers at the conservatorium in Sydney in those days, they were begrudgingly going to the show because I bought tickets for them and they're like, we don't want to see this guy, we want a real jazz musician. And of course, George, in the first song, they said to me afterwards, well, we heard more music in his cadenzas than we've ever heard. And that's what he was like. That's the thing about George Benson.

50:21Rick Rubin:It's like, you know, because he can disappear into the song. I mean, he can be the pop guy, but he's, you know. Everything he does. He can be a bebop guy. I mean, he does it all.

50:33Malcolm Gladwell:If you go back to the early records, you know, It's Uptown and George Mason Cookbook. Oh, my God. Some of those tunes. It's so extraordinary, you know. And, yeah, when you talk with George about his early days, he can tell you who he listened to and what they played and where he got ideas from, from the organ players and horn players. I mean, just everything. He remembers everything. He's got an amazing mind. Incredible.

51:02Rick Rubin:Do you remember hearing Joe Pass for the first time?

51:06Malcolm Gladwell:Oh, yeah. Well, when I first heard Joe Pass, I was still discovering jazz. When I was young, we didn't listen to jazz. We didn't listen to classical music either. I had to get away from my family environment and move to the city to meet people who were big into a music that I'd never experienced. And it was somebody opened a door for me and I saw some guitar players. I said, what the hell is that? What is this thing you're doing? He said, oh, it's Wes Montgomery. It's Wes. Who's Wes Montgomery? Well, here's some records. go away and listen, you know. And then, you know, you've got to listen to Joe Pass.

51:58Malcolm Gladwell:You've got to listen to, you know. And I discovered all those guys. I was about 18, you know. And it was just a whole new world for me, you know. And over the years, one of the things that I noticed about the players that I really loved is that you could sing their solos. You could learn how to sing what they improvised because it was so singable. It was beautiful. And Chet always did that. With his solos, anybody who's listened to Chet, they'll go straight into singing his improvised solo because it's totally singable. We'll be back with Tommy Emanuel.

52:43Tommy Emmanuel:Being a small business owner isn't just a career, it's a calling. Chase for Business knows how much heart and effort go into building something of your own. That's why they make your business growth their priority. The team at Chase takes the time to understand your mission, where you are now and where you want to go. Their broad range of solutions is designed with you in mind so you can bring your ideas to life. From banking to payment acceptance to credit cards, you can conveniently manage all your business finances all in one place with their digital tools. Looking for tips and advice? Their online resources are always available to give you the solutions you need to help your business thrive.

53:19Tommy Emmanuel:See how your business can get stronger and go farther with Chase for Business. Learn more at chase.com slash business. Chase for Business. Make more of what's yours. The Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JPMorgan Chase Bank, NA. Member FDIC. Copyright 2026, JPMorgan Chase and Company. If you love hip-hop, and I mean really love the culture beyond the beefs, playlists and hype you need to check out the almanac of rap i'm don will i'm a rapper producer and hip-hop obsessor and the almanac of rap is a two-time webby award-winning show where we build up a topic just to break it down if you love hip-hop conversations that actually go somewhere or sometimes don't subscribe to the almanac of rap on apple podcast youtube or wherever you listen

54:11Rick Rubin:Going back a bit to our Stevie conversation while we were talking about those guitar players and just about how there's something maybe extrasensory happening with Stevie even though he doesn't have one of his senses there's certainly something extrasensory happening with him Oh, absolutely Do I have it right that you learned how to do harmonics like Chet Atkins through a dream?

54:36Malcolm Gladwell:Yeah Yeah, I don't tell this story on stage, but the truth is that I wanted to make this sound. I'll show you what I'm talking about. This sound here.

55:03Malcolm Gladwell:that sound there I couldn't figure out how he was doing that right and And I just, I asked people, I tried to find videos that might have someone doing that. I never saw anybody do it. I just couldn't figure it out. And one night I had a dream. And the dream was so quick and it was just, it was simply this. It was like a red velvet curtain. spotlight came on chet atkins came out in a tuxedo with his gretch guitar and he sat down on a chair and he went and he did it like this up and down and then that's all i remember when i woke up somehow i knew i knew that i knew how to do it and i picked up the guitar and i went

56:06Malcolm Gladwell:there it is you know what i mean yeah and the the only uh answer to that that that i could come up with that was logical uh is that maybe my my subconscious figured it out and showed it to my conscious part of the brain and when i woke up my conscious said this is it that's the only thing in my

56:33Rick Rubin:can it's still pretty wild you mean really i mean even if that is the logical explanation that that your brain can do that or that your brain did that is is really interesting yeah sometimes things

56:47Malcolm Gladwell:happen and and you can't explain them i always call it a white man calls it coincidence you know what I mean? Because, you know, when you look at what's going on in the world, you know that we're all the same. We're all connected. And it doesn't matter where we come from, what color we are. And none of that stuff matters. That we're all pretty much the same. And we have to find why we're here, you know? I'm lucky because when I was little, all I wanted to do was make music and I just found something that I was so passionate about and I still am I still want to play as much today as I did when I was six years old it's exactly the same passion it's just ignited by the amount of information that's coming at me from the people I listen to.

57:58Malcolm Gladwell:You see, a lot of guitar players don't look at the big picture, you know, and those years from 1970 to 1980 were really important in my growth and my knowledge as a songwriter, as a player who can write a song, And that was because all I listened to were great singers, great songwriters, people whose music was still wonderful. I remember in 71, I was playing in a band and we were doing covers. We were playing Chuck Berry, Creedence, Beatles, Rolling Stones, all that stuff. It was a great band to be in. and I bought a little turntable and a speaker and everything, put it in my little caravan that I had, and I bought American Pie because it came out.

58:56Malcolm Gladwell:It was on the radio. Every five minutes you heard, Bye, bye, Mr. American. Did they play the whole thing, the whole song? Oh, yeah. Wow. So I had American Pie album, Carole King's Tapestry album, and Chris Christopherson's Silver Tongue Devil album. What an album. So that's 1971. That started me going, oh, my God, listen to this music. And then I played in different bands, and there were some people who were big into Stevie Wonder and stuff like that. And so I had to learn all this R &B music as well. And so my education really began then, you know, in pop music and all that sort of stuff. And Chet Atkins came out with an album called Chet Picks on the Beatles, right?

59:56Malcolm Gladwell:And that's when he first did that.

1:00:06Right?

1:00:07Malcolm Gladwell:That later would die. And I worked out how to do that, and then I started messing with it. Giving it a backbeat.

1:00:54Malcolm Gladwell:And when I was first doing my solo thing, I would go into that tune and people were like, you know, they'd never heard anybody play that, you know, all the parts at the same time. and so I was only doing Lady Madonna that way so then I started working out other things like

1:01:28so forth

1:01:29Malcolm Gladwell:and then I come

1:01:39Right.

1:01:40Malcolm Gladwell:You can train yourself to do that stuff. You just have to work it out and then be willing to put the time in. You know what I mean? Because someone who hasn't played a lot comes up and says, I want to learn Lady Madonna. And I said, well, you're going to have to learn it bar by bar because it's two completely separate parts. So you've got the piano part. Right. Got that? Then you got the melody part. Paul McCartney's singing bit, right? So you've got to do the two at the same time. Right. So here's what it sounds like at a learner's pace. You ready?

1:02:34Malcolm Gladwell:That's the first two bars. Go away and play that. for all day today and tomorrow. I'll see you the next day and we'll learn the next two bars. That's kind of what it's like to learn something complicated like that. And is that how, when you first started putting the style together, is that how you would, or were you already? No, I was wanting to get to the end of it so I could do it all again, right? But then I learned along the way that you can piece it together, but you've got to stop and fix the bumps in the road where you're struggling. You know what I mean? Yeah. So you want it to be like that, right?

1:03:12Malcolm Gladwell:But sometimes it's like, you know, there's some bumps and everything because you haven't practiced it and smoothed it out yet, you know? So...

1:03:24Rick Rubin:Beyond that beginner's one, though, because then you have to add the chords.

1:03:27Malcolm Gladwell:Yeah.

1:03:28Rick Rubin:Or you don't have to, but you do.

1:03:32Malcolm Gladwell:Well, I add the backbeat.

1:03:37Malcolm Gladwell:At the back. Right. So, but when I'm playing it, I've practiced it enough that I'm not thinking about all the technique of playing it, all the stuff that's going on. Yeah. I'm only thinking about...

1:03:56Malcolm Gladwell:You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm totally into the melody and singing it, and that's why it feels that way. Yeah. But if all the rest of it doesn't happen right, I have to stop and make sure that it does. Yeah. You know? But that hasn't happened yet. So, you know what I mean? Those fast licks that you're able to do. It's Ray Charles. Ray Charles. Yeah.

1:04:29Malcolm Gladwell:It's not even super clear. it's purposely a little bit muffled you know what I mean that makes it even funkier if you go back to Jerry Reed's The Claw

1:05:04Malcolm Gladwell:Right, so...

1:05:11That's a so piano, and he's put it on the guitar, you know?

1:05:15Malcolm Gladwell:It's insane. When I met Jerry the very first time, I said, how on earth did you end up writing and playing and singing this, you know? And he just looked at me and he said, I'm just trying to be Ray Charles, man. Really? I'm just trying to be Ray. Yeah. And it answered everything for me. Wow. You know? You cannot underestimate the influence of Ray Charles in modern music. Wow. In all music. Ray has his place up here. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Incredible. I have a daughter, Rachel, and we purposely named her Rachel so we could shorten it to Ray and just say his name all the time. That's great. That's great.

1:05:59Rick Rubin:Yeah. And at this point, have you done this enough that you sort of know, based on where you're playing the melody, like how you can play an A there or a G?

1:06:10Malcolm Gladwell:That's a written key, I think.

1:06:16Malcolm Gladwell:And I'm always looking for the best key to play a song in anyway. But a song like that, I'm trying to learn the melody right and then move the chords underneath it, you know? Yeah. And I just started doing that because I was doing a TV show in Australia, and they said, we were hoping you might play, what's that song called?

1:06:45Rick Rubin:Not Wonderwall.

1:06:46Malcolm Gladwell:You're my Wonderwall. Wonderwall, yeah. He said, every guest has to play Wonderwall. And I said, Wonderwall. I know the song, but it's not a song that I thought I would want to arrange. So before the show, like a minute before the show, I started going, oh, yeah, I think I can make it work. And it actually is a really great song. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've still got to work on it. I just throw it in occasionally. It's a good time to throw it in.

1:07:17Rick Rubin:There's a reunion happening and all that, you know, oasis.

1:07:20Malcolm Gladwell:but it doesn't it doesn't have musically the big the big payoff that like here comes the chorus you know i mean yes the whole thing is there it's all kind of yeah yeah but not in a bad way but no in a good way yeah yeah yeah but see songs like that sometimes don't work instrumentally the this is why you know a lot of times people will say why don't you play blah blah blah or my son's learning this Ed Sheeran song or whatever. I love Ed Sheeran, right? But not all songs that are popular make good instrumentals, you know? An instrumental has to be interesting, has to tell you a story and take you somewhere.

1:08:01Malcolm Gladwell:And sometimes if you don't know the lyric and you're just listening to it as a song, it can get boring. But there are certain songs that really work as instrumental. For instance, years ago I was asked to submit a track as a tribute to Burt Bacharach, right? Oh, nice. And, of course, I wanted to play This Guy's In Love or one of those early songs of his, and some other artist had already done it, and the only song left was Close To You by The Carpenters, which is a Burt Bacharach song, right? It's a masterpiece, that song, but nobody wanted to touch it. And I said, great, that's my reason for doing it right there.

1:08:50Malcolm Gladwell:I love the song. And how can I make it, how can I breathe some new life into a song that's been done so much, you know? So I went looking for the right key to play the song in, right? I listened to the Carpenters version several times. I knew it anyway because I learned it when I was a teenager. So I put the melody...

1:09:37Malcolm Gladwell:So I found a good key to play it in. Why do roll?

1:09:47Malcolm Gladwell:So you've got the melody.

1:09:53Malcolm Gladwell:And I made sure that at every turn it was unresolved, then resolved. So like that, you see? Yeah.

1:10:22sonst customers Norví

1:10:47Malcolm Gladwell:That is why all the girls in town Follow you all around Just like me, they long to you

1:11:10Malcolm Gladwell:Right, and it's still playing the melody how it was the composer intended, but I'm doing all I can to make it colourful and different, you know? And this chord is an unexpected, it's not in the original. Close to you Right? Yeah. Yeah. That adds that nice tension. Yeah. And then on the end.

1:11:49Malcolm Gladwell:Close to you. The second time.

1:12:01Malcolm Gladwell:which is that's a typical little jazz piano

1:12:14Malcolm Gladwell:now the ending close to you Black and white to colour It went into it, ended in a different key. Yeah. Yeah, so these are some of the things that are really simple ideas that I picked up along the way somehow. And that's an example of how you can use them to make something that has been played a million times make it interesting. Yeah. You know?

1:12:43Rick Rubin:Man, it's been amazing talking to you. and you so many more things i mean i have a lot more i want to ask about air supply oh i'm touring with tina turner but you know you can ask me whenever you like well we can save it for next time too man oh although screw it you toured with tina turner yeah which is well i was

1:13:04Malcolm Gladwell:in the band that were opening opening you know right and uh that was a great tour it was 1987 And it was Break Every Rule tour. But I have an interesting Tina Turner story because her manager, Roger, was an Australian, is an Australian. And I was songwriting with my friend Steve Kipner, who wrote Let's Get Physical and Twist of Fate and Heart Attack, all those songs for Olivia Newton, John. and anyway I got a call from Roger who was managing Olivia at that time as well and he rang me and he said I'm I'm going to take on Tina Turner and and everything and he said can you come by the office I want to play you something so I went past his office and he played me the demo of what's love got to do with it.

1:13:57Malcolm Gladwell:And I got to the end of the first chorus and I said, Roger, this is a smash. This is so fantastic. He said, I know. She doesn't want to do it. And I said, what? And he said, she doesn't want to do it. But he found a way of helping her come into the song. The guy who wrote it, Terry Britton, brilliant English guy. came over from London to here, spent the day with Tina, and coached her into singing the song. And then she got inside it. Insane. Yeah. You heard the demo before? But the record was basically the demo. They just put her voice in there and put a different solo on it. That's what the demo sounded like.

1:14:53Malcolm Gladwell:The demo sounded like a hit record. Wow. Yeah. That's insane. That's what all demos in the 80s sounded like. They sounded like a hit record. Did you ever try your hand at that pop songwriting? Of course. Yeah. Well, I always think everything I write's pop. Yeah. Now it's grand pop.

1:15:18Rick Rubin:Right. Yeah. Now it's. Did you know the Bee Gees ever? Did you ever cross? Because you did a lot of touring in Australia through the 60s and 70s.

1:15:29Malcolm Gladwell:Well, in the early 60s, we were playing some rock and roll festivals, and we were playing kind of surfy instrumental music. And then this other band with boys in it, they were just a little older than us. and I remember Barry Gibb played guitar in an open E tuning so when he played a chord it looked like that and I'll just never forget, my brother Phil, he said oh these guys will never get anywhere, look at this guy no way, yeah, oh they were so good and when I hear How Deep Is Your Love on the radio So just parts of it, they're so beautiful. And I'm just amazed at how good they write and sing.

1:16:28Malcolm Gladwell:The vocal is amazing. I got to re-record How Deep Is Your Love with Barry for that album, The Greenfields. Yeah, right, 10, 12 years ago? Yeah. We did it at RCA Studio A. and we did 14 takes, one after the other, and Barry was standing right where you're sitting. He was standing that close to me, and I'm playing just with a mic on, and the band are all live. And I tell you, he sang his heart out in every take. He was amazing. He is incredible, man. But that's how that guy, the producer from Nashville, Dave. Dave Cobb. Dave Cobb. That's how he works. It's like, yep, we got a great take. Let's do another one.

1:17:18Malcolm Gladwell:Yep, we got another great take. Let's do another one. I'm like, he sang it perfectly. It's done. And he's like, no, no, let's keep going. So he just... Do you know what take ended up getting used or no? You never know. You never know. Because people do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I can tell you that it's a beautiful record, and Barry sang his heart out.

1:17:47Rick Rubin:Is that your first time meeting Barry?

1:17:49Malcolm Gladwell:No, I met Barry years ago. And they interviewed him for a documentary thing on me, and I was really surprised when I saw him. I said, you spoke to Barry? And he always said, you know, the world's full of great guitar players, and then there's this guy. you know he always put me in another category you know but um anyway to hear that from a guy like

1:18:18Rick Rubin:you know i mean because again considering his facilities yeah unbelievable yeah he's he's a fantastic guy singer songwriter the whole thing before you know it's a funny thing i was playing

1:18:31Malcolm Gladwell:in uh i was playing a show in miami and there was a young guy with like a beard and tats and And he's sitting in front of me, and every now and again I'd see him. And he had tears in his eyes when I was playing, and he got very emotional when I played certain songs. And I saw it, and I thought, gee, I wonder what's going on with this guy. And I eventually met him, and it was Barry's son, Stephen. He's a great guy. Yeah. Great dude. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great family. They're beautiful people. Yeah. You know?

1:19:04Rick Rubin:Yeah. Tommy, thank you so much, man. Thank you. Wonderful to be with him. I need you and sit with you, man. Here, you played this close? I mean, come on. Insane. Insane. In the episode description, you'll find a link to a playlist featuring our favorite songs from Tommy Emanuel, as well as his new album, Living in the Light. Check out youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast to see more content from the show. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at thebrokenrecordpod. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Talladeh.

1:19:38Rick Rubin:Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.

1:20:05Tommy Emmanuel:If you love hip-hop, and I mean really love the culture beyond the beefs, playlists, and hype, you need to check out The Almanac of Rap. I'm Don Will. I'm a rapper, producer, and hip-hop obsessor. And The Almanac of Rap is a two-time Webby award-winning show where we build up a topic just to break it down. If you love hip-hop conversations that actually go somewhere, or sometimes don't, subscribe to The Almanac of Rap on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you listen. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.