Ziggy Marley: Black History Month Bonus

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2:06Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. Last week, we went back and replayed my conversation with Usher to celebrate his Super Bowl performance and the incredible career resurgence he's had over the last couple of years. In thinking about our back catalog of episodes, I thought there was another conversation worth revisiting. Malcolm Gladwell speaking with Ziggy Marley about the cultural influence the tiny country of Jamaica and Ziggy's dad Bob Marley have had over the last half a century. The Bob Marley biopic One Love was released in theaters yesterday.

2:41I hope anyone familiar with the Bob Marley name or his music will go see it at some point. If only to keep the conversation about his songs and his political thinking alive and to guard against his legacy becoming further whitewashed and commercialized, which feels increasingly inevitable as the years after his death continue on. So have a listen to Malcolm's conversation with Ziggy from a couple of years back. See the movie, spend some time with Marley's catalog, and some of the other great Jamaican music from that time, from Prince Buster to Alton Ellis and beyond. This is Broken Record. Line of notes for the digital age.

3:16I'm Justin Richman. Here's Malcolm Gladwell and Ziggy Marley. This conversation was taped live as part of the Live Talks Los Angeles series. This book that you've done with all of these photos of your father, it had a kind of personal resonance for me because, as you may know, my mom is Jamaican. When I was growing up in the 70s, we would go to Jamaica every year, every Christmas. And so many of these photos are from the Jamaica that I remember as a kid. It's funny. I mean, it's very personal for you, but in this weird, indirect way, it's personal for me, too. You know how when you look at a photo of Jamaica, you can smell Jamaica?

3:57I could smell Jamaica again. It's this lovely, like, took me back to my childhood. What led you to want to do this book? So over the years, we've collected a lot of photographs of Bob from different photographers and stuff like that. And, you know, usually I think the photographs you see of Bob are iconic photographs, you know. You always see the iconic images. and so for this we came up on the 75th birthday anniversary and I felt like let's do something special for the 75th let's take some of these photos we have in our archives and put together a photo book, the family has never done one before, other people have done one and I totally understand when you talk about you smell Jamaica, the photos because doing the book it brought me back to that time too you know, looking at it it's like it's such a it's such a real experience a real thing that when I was looking at the photos everything just kind of came back to me yeah when you say I was just thinking logistically you said this is really the family's book there's so many of you how on earth did you guys did you guys coordinate picking all of these photos did you have like a family council where you all sat down and went through them no no well I was given the task I was given that responsibility of going through the photos.

5:20That's what we do. We kind of delegate responsibilities. You know, say, hey, this is your project. You have the family's approval and blessing. It's your project. Go ahead and do it, you know? Yeah. Well, tell me about your memories of your father. So you're born in 68. So when he dies, you're just a teenager. Yeah. Going on 13, yeah. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about what you remember of your father. Well, everything. I mean, there's nothing to forget, really, because the limited experience we've had with him, you know, everything was memorable and left an everlasting impact on my psyche. You know what I mean?

5:58Everything, it was like going to school, but a different type of school. You know what I mean? So growing up with Bob, I mean, there was different elements. There was the fun side, happy side, you know, play around with children. We would travel to the countryside, his hometown, every now and again. And it's funny. I remember those days, there were no seatbelts. He would have me in a lap in the front seat. No seat belt, no, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah. Believe me, I remember that. I remember being stuck in Jamaica in the back of a Volkswagen Beetle driven by my uncle. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, my mom had one of those too.

6:32She had one of those Beetles too. Yeah. Yeah. So, but I mean, and then there was a serious side. It was the, what I saw was a lot of discipline. This man, I love work hard. This man, I love discipline. This man, he's from the countryside. side and he's so rooted in his humility that for him to come back to his hometown or go back to trench town in the ghetto it was like it's just it's just bob this is just bob it's not like bob the the superstar or bob the whatever you know it's just bob so i mean lots of soccer lots of football soccer music soccer music and the spiritual side of it was a very powerful thing Bob always loved having Bible and he would take me and my brother Stephen to these what you call them, it's like service people go to church service or people go to the synagogue or the mosque we had these things called naya bingis it would be like some weird time of the night it was such a mystical that's why I say it left such an impression on me as a child because it was such a the naya bingis was such a mystical thing, smoke, fire, drums singing, chanting and a whole spiritual vibe, you know?

7:44So, yeah, you know, we go up into that kind of environment where every memory really is stuck with us. And the memory is stuck with us more than just a memory. It's stuck with us as, like, an experience that has kind of molded us into who we are today, you know? So it's a real heavy thing, you know? It's heavy. Yeah. The other part of it that's fascinating to me, as I said earlier, was the Jamaica of that period, which is Jamaica in the 70s. So many of these photos are about Jamaica in the 70s and Jamaica in the 70s is an intense place. I mean, politics is manly and siaga and there's violence and there's gun court and there's reggae and there's, you know, Don Quarry winning gold medal.

8:30I mean, it's just sort of like, there's so, I remember going there as a kid, it was just like so much. I was coming from rural Canada where nothing happened to a place where everything was happening. Can you talk a little bit about that? I mean, you were in the epicenter of this because your father was kind of in the middle of the maelstrom. Yeah, there were certain mileposts that I can remember about the 70s, especially the more turbulent times, the politics. So we can go back. I remember the night my parents were shot, right? I remember before my mother left to go to rehearsals, they were like, yo, mommy, take me to rehearsals.

9:09I wanted to go, I wanted to go to rehearsal. And she was like, no, like, you have school tomorrow. And I was, like, very, like, angry that she never let me go to rehearsals. And then, you know, looking back after the shoot, I think she probably was, it was a good decision, right? So I remember that night, I remember she leaving and we went to bed, right? But in the middle of the night, some police came to the house and, like, grabbed us up. And, like, there was a lot of, you know, like, chaos and, like, let's go, muddle. Let's go, let's go, get the kids out of the house. and they drove us to wherever we were going.

9:42We never knew. I was just like this. I was like, what the fuck? This is what year? What is it? 76? When your mom gets the assassination time. 76, yeah. So another more impactful experience was with my mom, actually. We were talking about the 70s and what was going on there, the political upheaval and just the drama, everything. So my mother picked us up from school. This was during the height of the, there was a big protest going on, political. They were blocking the roads, fire burning, tires burning in the streets. So my mom picked us up from school in the Beetle, in the VW. She's driving us home and we come up on a roadblock.

10:21We can't get home. We're not too far from home, but we can't pass because these guys, there's tires burning and these guys are like... And I remember being in the backseat and watching my mother. She came out of the car and she confronted these guys in a very... She's brave. I mean, it's brave what she did. She, like, stand up and say, yo, whatever. She cursed her door. And she talked them down and they kind of like, okay. And kind of parked the road back and we drove through. So that's another memory that's like, if I remember that time and the turbulent political situation, those two mileposts is what I go back to.

10:59But, I mean, there was good times too, man. You know what I mean? I mean, going back to Trenchstone, playing football, you know, So it was a very double-edged sword that period of time because it was so good too. The vibe, the energy, the music. There was so much life, there was so much revolutionary change. It's the same time Bob and Clyde Mossop, who was a strong man or a strong arm for the political faction and Bucky Marshall, they came together and were starting to kind of disown the politics. And I was there too. I met all of these guys, Take Live. And I knew what was happening. And I kind of, but actually when I got later on, I kind of understand who these guys were because I just saw them as guys, as Bob's friends.

11:43And I know they were meeting and talking and blah, blah, blah. But when I grew older, I realized these guys were some dangerous men. They weren't just like some, these guys were some serious guys. So that is, yeah, that is the world. That is the world, you know, back in the seventies. I remember, it's funny, you talk about your mother in that roadblock, my grandfather telling me that he'd be driving down the road and there'd be a roadblock. And he got really good at guessing whether it was JLP or PNP, the two parties. So he'd take a look. He'd say, oh, no, that's JLP. Wave his fist out the window, JLP.

12:17They're like waving through. Next one would be PNP. Waving through. But, you know, to your point, it's the world that birthed this extraordinary amount of your father's music. I mean, it's what gave his music such immediacy and urgency and power. Did your father talk a lot about the kind of the politics of Jamaica? Not, I mean, not to me. I mean, I've overheard stuff and I've, you know, but never directed to us. Yeah. I mean, he's spoken about it. Obviously, he's not a political person to say, well, he'll decide this politics or that political party or whatever. I think he was a threat because his thing was Rastafari, which is another thing.

12:59So he's neither PNPR, GLP. It's like its own thing. And what was happening was that all of the, I mentioned Cladamass at Bucky Marshall, these were the strong arms. These were the enforcers of the political parties, the lead enforcers. These guys were coming over to Bob's side. So there was a whole other thing going on that the political powers were losing their muscle to this other idea of Rastafari. And that was what Bob was really about, really. I mean, if he was about politics, it was the political party of Rastafari, which is a spiritual movement. You know, we want to change how things are.

13:38So I think that was his politics. Rastafari was his politics, we could say, you know. Yeah. I was trying to think whether there's another musical artist who has had the same kind of status in his or her home country as your father did. I mean, I'm remembering that famous concert where the two political figures of the day, Siaga and Manly, didn't they shake hands on stage at a Bob Marley concert? Yeah, the One Love Peace concert. Yeah. I mean, the analogy would be as if Donald Trump and Joe Biden had kind of hugged on stage at a Bruce Springsteen concert, right? That's the close. I mean, but that doesn't even capture it.

14:23I mean, this is why I love the book so much, because it takes us back to the time and the place. Yeah. There's wonderful photos of the One Love concert with Siega and Michael Manley. Yeah. I remember that. I was there. Me and my brother went on stage. Because that's what we usually do. Like me and Stephen, my brother Stephen, he would go on stage, we would go on stage, in that last song, which is usually Exodus. Those times was tough too, the One Love Peace concert. so I remember I don't think we have any photos of that period but when Bob, after the assassination attempt and Bob had come home for the One Love Peace concert so we all went to the airport and there was thousands of people at the airport because now Bob was coming back and the thing is that political strongmen for the parties political parties now were on the same page as Bob and so everyone that supports these political parties now was supporting Bob and these guys who now have their own ideas of peace and less political violence.

15:24So the airport was full. And then I was there and I remember the crowd and them pulled Bob and I'm there. I'm outside now in this crowd all mixed up with everybody. And Bob get pulled into a car and I'm by the window like this. And Bob, why not? He pulled me through the window. Well, you knew you got left behind. I got mixed up in the crowd. It was like just crowd. I had no nanny or nobody watching me. It's important to remember in this moment in Jamaican history, it's almost like the country is in a state of civil war. There is violence everywhere. You know, people are leaving Jamaica in droves to come to the United States or Canada to escape.

16:11It's a kind of a crazy period. What is funny is not only a civil war, is like a geopolitical war going on at the same time between the United States and Russia and Cuba, because that was the whole thing. That's why Edward Seaga, he was a bastard. He graduated from Boston University. And so there was the geopolitical situation even elevated the stakes even more. And Bob, I mean, Bob was in a serious position. Nobody knew, but he was in a serious position because of the geopolitical element. Would America allow a socialist government who has ties with Cuba to have another, which would then mean Russia having a more influence in that region?

16:54You know, America didn't want that and would not allow that. I know there was this guy, this singer guy who people were drawn to and he was like, he had some political power too because the political strongmen and their people were now drawn to this singer guy. Who's this singer guy? You know what I'm saying? So the stakes were really high beyond what I think we realized or even Bob might have realized at the time or people around him, you know? We'll be back with Malcolm Gladwell and Ziggy Marley after a break. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

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20:53Find the one with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10 % off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash broken. That's BetterHelp.com slash broken. We're back with more from Ziggy Marley and Malcolm Gladwell. Can you think of a musical figure who was analogous to your father? Yeah, I think more than Fela Kote. from Nigeria. Yeah. And him, he was, you know, he was another one of my, I met him once in Chicago, but he was, he was serious. He was real. You know, I mean, what he did in Nigeria, standing up against the government, the brutality and the songs he wrote about that really, he, just like my father, assassination attempt, I mean, they would raid him and beat him and beat his mother and, you know, type of thing.

21:43Fela Kuti would be a good, analogy to Bob, I think. Yeah, yeah. And there are a couple, maybe a couple of South African Humesakela, maybe, would be a good analogy. But when do you become aware that you want to make your life in music? Is that something that comes to you very young and looking at your father or afterwards, after his death? No, it come before that. I mean, the first concert we played was a concert that Bob was on. It was the International Year of the Children. What year that was? 79. nine. And he wrote the first song that we ever sung. So we was always in music and Bob would always call us to sing when he's writing it.

22:23Come sing. We're playing. We want to go play. He's telling us to come sing. So we start very young with music. The thing I get from Bob, musically speaking, is the discipline and the focus and the seriousness in which you approach the music. The respect that he gave the music. So you have to put in the work that shows you respect the music. It's not like you just, you know, you have to sing the right, you have to practice, you know. So really when we used to sit at rehearsals and watch Bob them rehearse, and I think for some reason, I grew up taking that ethic of hard work and putting it into my own music and my life in general, you know, whether it be exercising or whatever.

23:05I think seeing him just, you know, grind and like, wow, make it right and the discipline, the discipline, you know what I said, the discipline is really, it's a strong impact on me seeing that discipline as growing up around that. Can you talk a little bit about the way he made music? I mean, was there a kind of an approach, a particular approach? And can you give a level of an example of how he worked and how he created? Well, what I saw, and this was probably in Miami at his mother's house, yeah? But he always had his guitar around. And a lot of times it's mumbling. You don't read it. It's not a song.

23:45You just hear ideas coming out. And for me, he would always have fun with it. It was never like a serious writing. It was always like something very joyful. The process was very joyful and happy and people around and laughing and getting lyrics, making fun. There's this one. Another one thing he never did release, this one. It was released. It's kind of like he did it as a demo. It's kind of like a real good time. And I remember him being in Miami in his bedroom with his ovation guitar. And he was just having fun with it, having a real good time. You know, and people, you know, I'm a split fan.

24:25It's just a good energy, just a good vibe. You know what I mean? I say it's like, and then you never hear when the song completes. You only hear when it comes on the record. You hear pieces of it, ideas of things, you know, and then you hear a record. So I never really hear him complete one song, writing a song completely. You know, you always hear little bits and pieces here and there. When your father became ill, was there a sense of urgency with him? Did his work take on a new kind of seriousness? No, he was always urgent. I mean, he was urgent from the get-go. because there are a few examples of that kind of energy, of his urgency, of his work ethic, of his determination.

25:08So he was in the band Whalers with Bonnie and Peter, these three guys, right? They were in this band. And obviously it never worked out because according to what he said in an interview, he said these words, he used my name. He says, if you think when Ziggy wants to go to school that he can say blah, blah, he didn't want to work, he didn't want to do this. What, you know, so he wants to work, you know, he wants to get things done. There was always an urgency. There was never a lag time. There was never lag time. There was always music. There was never any like, all right, let me take a vacation now.

25:44All right, let me go chill out now. There was no, it was like 36, I mean, how much years? 36 years of like pushing, you know, pushing it, pushing it, pushing it, touring, never stopping. So that urgency I feel was always there. Of all of his music, what are the songs that speak to you the most? The song that gets me the most is a redemption song, because I remember shortly after Impass, that was the album. That was this album. That song was the emotional spear, the emotional arrow. When you hear that song in that time, so that memory of that song is related to that time period. And it was him and his guitar.

26:24It's so, it's so soulful and just the final thing is just him and him guitar. And so that song always kind of have an emotional impact on me. Yeah. I want to know more about your childhood. There's a lot of moving around. Your family went to London right after the shooting. Is that right? Yeah, but we never got London. So, all right. So, Trench Town, right? Trench Town. I was born in Trench Town. We grew up in Trench Town a little bit. and then moved to Delaware, where his mother had moved, had migrated to. So we lived in Delaware, Williamton, Delaware. I went to school, elementary school in Delaware for maybe a year or so.

27:03Then we moved back to Jamaica, but we moved out of Trenchtown and moved into a place called Bull Bay, which is a much better standard of living. It's like, you know, not poor, but not rich. It's like the middle class or something like that in Jamaica at the time. But it's funny, within that middle class community, When our mother left, we would stay with our grand-aunt. And it was like we had to walk up the road and up the hill. And she was living in a poor class house with no water, no toilet, no nothing. So right within that middle-class thing, if I went to my aunt's house, it was like I was in another neighborhood.

27:39And so we would stay with her a lot of times because mommy and daddy would go on tour and then we would have to stay with grand-auntie in that house there. And then after that, we moved to an upper middle class neighborhood now. And then after my father passed away, my mother moved us into a more upper class in the hills with a big house and lots of rooms and stuff like that. So, yeah, that was the movement. And for me, it was fun. As a child, everything was a great learning experience. You know, this life with my family, my father, my mother and what they were going through. I was also learning from at the same time.