ASHES SPECIAL | Barmy Army Head Down Under: Behind the Scenes with Sport’s Greatest Community | Chris Millard (Ep94)

0:00I feel a massive sense of responsibility for being a custodian for Test cricket. The Barmy Army has been really so passionate about that version of the sport and we're one of the real success stories. It's our duty to really shout from the hilltops about how good it is and what the future's like for Test cricket. I think for the Barmy Army, you talk about pantomime villains. If Steve Smith's the captain, it's no bad thing. I know a lot of the Barmy Army guys that make up the songs and really have a good go.

0:27It's really hard to get at Pat because he's so good, he's so perfect, he's so well-spoken and he's such a great guy by all accounts. so it's a bit easier to get at Steve Smith. You've got the basball effect, the halo effect of English cricket at the minute. There's a real buzz about it. The team feels together and when the team feels together, the fans feel together. Players and fans are the most important thing in sport and when they're united between the players and the fans and they can see that they're trying their best and there's success on the pitch, then it really drives the following as well and we've seen that.

0:52So the numbers are huge for the Ashes and you've seen Brendan come in and Stokes in. What they've done is put a little bit of fire behind Test cricket, which is awesome.

1:03Hello and welcome to The Business of Sport, the show that takes you behind the scenes with the industry's leading owners, operators and athletes. It's Ashes Week. One of the biggest weeks of the sporting year is finally here and with it we have a special show unlike any other we've done before. The Barmy Army is so influential it has made it into the Oxford Dictionary. To quote verbatim, it is a term for a group of passionate, noisy and dedicated fans who support the English national cricket team, especially during overseas tours. For over 30 years, they've built an incredible atmosphere by leveraging trumpets, original songs and bucket hats so fashionable they're found all over Glastonbury.

1:40But did you know behind this infamous group sits a hugely successful business with a huge responsibility to bring the best experiences to thousands of touring fans under their banner? Chris Millard is the man in charge of the Barmy Army, and in a six-week period that will no doubt have them front and centre of sports news as 40 ,000 England fans descend on Australia, we thought it was the perfect time to take a look at the organisation that defines fandom and community. This is a side of the Barmy Army you will not have seen before. It's time to build the hype as we enter the ultimate cricketing Christmas.

2:13We're delighted to welcome Chris to the Business of Sport.

2:19chris welcome to the business of sport pleasure to be here oh it's so fun look at this as well some i now actually can look at the cameras properly as i said beginning but i mean i'm just glad i asked for your size because on the on the um youtube you look a bit smaller in real life yeah it's the old zoom uh zoom people and you know you only chat with them online and suddenly they go wow wasn't expecting that yeah you'll see it's the o5 retro style Admiral shirt so we're trying to bring a bit of good fortunes ahead of the winter to come with the 05 winning shirt That's a brilliant shirt, retro kits are great aren't they they live their life now you see the football shirts, you see a lot of stuff around there it's the transition to fashion you were saying having these bucket hats at music festivals now are coming out into everything it's been an incredible part of the business I'm sure.

3:07It is, I was just saying to you off air but seeing people wearing your brand at a music festival when you're there is just like wow it really has impact because you've got your the barmy army is a music festival amazing singing songs and that's what it's about being part of the community it's a perfect time to to have this chat we'll you know tying this in as when people are listening to this will be the ashes so i'll just caveat the fact with we're having this chat a little bit beforehand there may be a few things if we reference them that you'll know by then um but let's just start with that right we have this incredible hopefully as england fans winter ahead of us and you were telling me about the size of touring party that you take out there tell everyone what what the barmy army have lined up it's certainly going to be the biggest cricket tour of all time we've got over three and a half thousand people coming out with us that's on the official tour program and we're looking to take as many people as we can to help and facilitate the tour so you've got to look after those people you've got to make sure they have a great time but they've entrusted us to take them away for the winter there's loads of honeymoons there's loads of retirement presents that it's everyone's big ticket item, right?

4:14They've been saving up for years. So yeah, we'll be over there very soon. And we've got many, many people coming out with us and I'm sure they'll have the time of their lives subject to England doing the job. Run us through the logistics. Three and a half thousand people under your banner, if we want, but also let's call it your community. How do you even begin to organize it? Yeah, so the three and a half thousand are quite a small group of the actual touring party. So we expect there to be 35, 40 ,000 England fans in Australia for the Ashes. But the three and a half thousand have booked with us.

4:46So they come on our official travel program. They can book anything between a hotel and ticket package, which is purely your hotel in Melbourne and your tickets to the MCG right the way through to a 54 night package, flying business class, tickets to every event, tickets to all the cricket, a little bit of hospitality in there. So it really does range from people doing it, budget, getting out there, wanting to go there with the mates, making sure they're in the Barmy Army section, right the way through to the people that want the luxury, want that experience, there's something for everyone. That's why we've been able to take so many people away.

5:20And behind that is an operational challenge. I think it's fair to say. I think everyone who goes on holiday knows the ops that goes into that and making sure your documents are right, everything's in place. We take care of all that. So we look after everything from the booking of the aircrafts, obviously, the logistics to and from the stadium, the logistics to and from the airport, managing the montour, making sure people have a good time. So I was just telling you about the training exercise we've got on for our staff. So we're quite a small team. We're still a small business. We've got just over 20 people full time in the office up north.

5:54But for the ashes, we will be taking over 50 staff. So that alone in itself is a big operation for us. So it really doesn't paint the picture until you're there and you see this for yourself and you see how big an Ashes Tour is in Australia for England and for the Barmy Army. How do you manage the tickets? Do you have the relationships with the governing bodies and you get allocations? Yeah, Cricket Australia are really forward thinking. So they've got a company called Cato, which is the Cricket Australia travel office who look after the travel management side of their operation. it's a big revenue stream to cricket australia it's really well received commercially by them and they're one of the governing bodies that are ahead of the game we think with sports tourism and that we've been on sale with cricket australia for since december last year and tickets only went on to general sale june this year so they see the opportunity because we sell a product that is packaged with a hotel and with a transfer and obviously has more commercial value than just selling a ticket to a fan in Australia.

6:54So they see the value, we see the value as well, being a company that's obviously one of their main retailers and we're able to make sure that we have such a big allocation and we're all sat together and we can bring so many people over because Cricket Australia are a little bit ahead of the game in terms of understanding that there is commercial value to be driven from a touring party. What's the hardest part of doing all of this? Risk management. So we have to take on a lot of risk management. And I think for any sports travel company that works in a similar sort of industry, there is a lot of risk on the line and margins aren't big either.

7:33So you're taking a lot of risk on and depending on how big your guts are to really go for this, like we knew this was going to be big. There hasn't been an Ashes tour since 17, 18 because of COVID. And that was a massive loss to many, many businesses and also england yeah let's say the right out the better yeah yeah we'll move on from that one um i'll never forget staying up you know oh first ball first ball bold around the legs i'll be honest i can i can trump that we had 600 people in a bar doing an all-nighter um in in london central london 600 people in ryan side but the special guest we'd booked the bar all night everyone up first ball the atmosphere was buzzing start the ashes everyone's really buzzing for it first of all i think there's people asleep by midnight it just set the tone didn't it it really set the tone it's like harmy bowling to third slip in was it oh seven yeah and then you know you just know you know what's coming yeah yeah you do but this time there's a really good feeling around it and i'd imagine for a touring party that just adds a huge amount when you you're not just there for the fun time but when there is the genuine hope and expectation that performance can accompany it that's that's one of the main drivers so you've got the the basball effect the halo effect of English cricket at the minute there's a real buzz about it that the team feels together and when the team feels together the fans feel together so players and fans are the most important thing in sport and when there's when there's proper community and when they're united between the players and the fans and they can see that they're trying the best and there's success on the pitch then it really drives drives the following as well and we've seen that so that the numbers are huge for the Ashes and we we're super excited by it but we've got to make sure that um from a commercial point of view and from a business perspective we get it right because we've been trusted to provide this experience to people so that's what we'll do how's it changed so let's the barmy army is in the oxford dictionary right we're now more than just a fan group it is a proper business it's you've just mentioned a touring company how do you define this organization now yeah there's there's been many phases right from inception in 94 95 when it was very much a fan club of passionate england fans singing songs and and having a good time and and paul burnham the the founder that's really driven it since 94 and up until i got involved in 16 17 um he made sure that there was a lifeblood of membership there and there was people that were quite passionate about the barmy army so it's been through many phases and then latterly we've we've tried to accelerate the brand and the growth but at the heart of it what will never change it's a community so it's a community of like-minded people and that doesn't matter if you're our youngest person who's touring the ashes with us who's three years old or our oldest person who's 85 years old there's a place for everyone in the barmy army and i think it was probably discredited a lot in the mid-2000s being male lads that just like to go and get drunk and paul fought really hard to protect the brand and make sure it wasn't seen as football fans it was seen as a unified passionate cricket fans and we've built on that and we've made sure that the brand represents every fan so some of the fans we have that tour with us the most we've got one lady who she doesn't like being mentioned but she's been on 29 consecutive tours she's a widow she's toured with us she trusts us she comes on her own and she is far from what you would say is your typical barmy army fan that you would well that AI would generate it's definitely not the lady in question so it is a place for everyone and as soon as people come to the Barmy Army they feel part of the community and that's why our retention is so high.

11:0725 % you said will come as single tickets that to me was incredible when you're really talking about community and the power of sport and a sense of belonging right this is something that means way more to people than the result of a five-day test match or you know a various various cricket format whatever you want that's exactly right and we're big on it so we're really big on community as you know but the big thing is if you are a single traveler if you are someone who's unfortunately widowed or divorced or or is just an independent traveler then you are welcome with us we we want to make sure we tell that story that you feel like you're part of something we we do matchmaking services so if you're a single solo traveler that can't afford this single supplement we'll try and match you so you'll phone our office and we'll try and match you with someone who's like-minded it's like a barmy army um friend matching service that we have going on in the office and we've matched 52 people for the ashes tour so there's 52 people that couldn't afford to do it on their own we've matched them with someone they don't know yet that we think is like-minded and they'll go on that tour and they'll probably make friends for life what the financials that you can talk about you know how how has this all come together as a business what's the revenue generation now around this from individual tours to i guess total business yeah so so look the ashes is is every four years the the away ashes for us it is massive and it really does drive growth for the business for the future and we have we're able to really make a lot off the ashes every four years to be able to grow the business and improve it for the future because an ashes year will will do really well taking taking a lot of people over to australia it's not a cheap place to go it's an expensive ticket so that's that's not cheap so that clearly drives a lot of revenue for us but we have to safeguard against the pakistan and new zealand tour where you might take 30 people 100 people but we still have the overhead of making sure the business is in place and is stable to be able to deliver major tours like the ashes and like south africa so it fluctuates hugely um the ashes being the big one and then you've got south africa west indies that are that are very successful commercially as well but there's nothing like the ashes there is just simply nothing like it um when we're at home the bar me on we we don't do huge amounts commercially um but we make sure that the membership is is thriving that we have tickets to all the games that we do events for people uh but but by by premise the barmy army is about going on tour taking people overseas and making sure everyone has a good time whilst they're doing that but as you say it's still interesting isn't it because your your job your place in in cricket even on like on home soil is still so strong you know you're there outside of lords obviously you're there at all the grounds and you're still like it's still the barmy army you still got the trumpet in the crowd you know you're kicking the day off with jerusalem yes it's it's domestic on home soil but it just takes up a different role than it will do for away tours yeah and the thing about uk cricket is we want to make sure we're there as a presence as much as anything else it isn't we are the community we're trying to create and that doesn't matter if you're on tour or not so even at lords we have tickets but we're not allowed to have the trumpet in because there's no musical instruments but i'll keep banging on the door um at the mcc and making sure that they're aware of us and i think that will change over time um but but it is it's one of the few um historical things that stood in the way of the Barmy army being in every ground in the world but there's something quite unique about Lords anyway so we can leave that there.

14:41Touching it earlier but the change in style of cricket this very very exciting form of test match cricket I mean we can say basball I know they hate it but how much have you seen that influence the appetite for the long form game when it comes to membership if it comes to appetite for touring do you think that has a really close link yes for sure i think we went through a period of time where um test cricket in england was in probably transition and you've seen brendan come in and and stokes and what they've done is is put a little bit of um fire behind test cricket which is awesome i mean at the heart of the core of the barmy army we are test cricket fans and we we really have never wavered from that we support all formats of cricket but test cricket is the is the heartbeat beat of English cricket I think and that's something that we've seen grow significantly since Brendan McCullens come back in and you've got Stokes you're firing and all of a sudden there's a really committing to test cricket and when you see that commitment from your talisman player and a coach that's done really really well I think fans buy into that and they really really get on board with the fact that okay we're going to Australia it's so hard to win an Ashes tour we're probably never going to have as good chance with the coach we've got and the captain we've got at the minute let's get behind that and membership membership increases merch sales increase and clearly the the travel program's done really really well for australia so it's um it's certainly going to be an interesting move when we see the the back end of stokes and mccullum and what happens but i say to our team it's our job to make sure that we're providing the experience that the barmy army provides that we think is addictive yeah so when those three thousand three and a half thousand people come on their first for many of them first timers will come on their first tour they'll get the bug and you know what we'll see a lot of them in south africa no matter who the captain is or the or the coaches because it's the uniqueness of touring with english cricket that is a community that no matter how bad they are how good they are we see same faces year on year how do you interact with the opposition from a um from a business standpoint and obviously we have the good stuff on the fan side but when it comes down to um you know making these tours happen i guess there's a huge amount of collaboration we talked about tickets but just in general all of those touring organizations how important is it to to build that broader relationship in cricket our relationship with the overseas governing bodies is is incredibly strong the majority of them see the value of the barmy army and what it brings and we work we work years and years out with we're talking to cricket south africa now about the next tour the previous tour there in 2019 i went out in 2017 and we we actually had a say on where the schedule was going to be So we helped inform Cricket South Africa on their ground selection based on where tourists wants to go.

17:27And PE was put in there just before the Cape Town test because we knew it would be a popular destination. And that was the impact of the Barmy Army, working with the governing body to build the tour around the travel side of things as well. Because it is a holiday to a lot of people with a lot of cricket included. So we try and showcase that working with us, let's work with you on your merchandise. eyes let's work with you on logistics of the tour as well it really does stand everyone in good stead because when the influx of the English crowd comes it doesn't matter if they're traveling with us independently with another operator a lot of the smaller governing bodies aren't necessarily that prepared for it so I see it as our job to make sure that the governing body is prepared for what's to come and if we can influence that and if we can help that then it's going to be better for the fan no matter who they are.

18:15How do the players interact with you? Fantastic, They're incredible. They always have been. I know back in 94, 95, right through to today, they've always been very positive about what the Barmy Army is. And at the heart of what the Barmy Army is, it's about support. And it's always been positive. And it's always looking for the positive to take out of the situation. And I think the players really respect that. There isn't usually a line where the cricket fan would cross and really criticise and get in your face we prefer to showcase that we'll support no matter what so day five of the ashes test in 1718 in 2018 in melbourne uh we'd lost early on day four or day five and and the barmy army were in the ground for three hours after still singing the songs because we were there to support and even though we were we were losing quite badly they were still there in the ground and the players the players respect that i was going to say have you uh spoken to joe and said you better make it to Melbourne and Sydney still competitive or we're going to...

19:12We have, we have. We've had that conversation. Like you said, for us, making sure that we win one of the first three tests so that going into Melbourne and Sydney there's something to play for is paramount because there are times where on the last tour that we were there for that people were flying out in their droves for Melbourne and Sydney for Christmas and New Year and it's all done. I mean, our record's horrible. I was looking at, I think it's the last 14 tests we've lost 13 and drawn one. It's not great, is it? It's really... No better time to change it. There is no better time and there's a good feel.

19:42And I know we spoke about the news about the Australia team might not be as strong as it possibly could be due to injury. Let's see. I'm sure when this goes out, things might have changed. But we're excited, quietly confident and looking forward to it. Well, if Pat doesn't make it, and again, everyone will know because the decision will be made. But if he doesn't make it and Steve Smith comes in, I bet the fans will have their fun anyway, won't they? I think for the Barmy Army, talk about pantomime villains. If Steve Smith's the captain, it's no bad thing. It's very hard to, I know a lot of the Barmy Army guys that make up the songs and really have a good go and our social media team that try and get a bit of action on social media going.

20:23It's really hard to get at Pat because he's so good, he's so perfect, he's so well-spoken, and he's such a great guy by all accounts. So it's a bit easier to get at Steve Smith. Yeah, I get ribbed by all my mates because it's like, oh you turncoat you know Aussie hanging out with the enemy all that genuinely you can say it probably he's a really good guy and it is you know it is a it is a massive conflict when we have the moments in cricket like the throwing down the stumps at Laws and you have those things where it just stokes up that side of the game but off it then you actually see what they're like and what it's all about they're great people like they are actually really really good people and you can see that quite often within you know the teams the franchise cricket these players playing so much together you know the relationships I'm sure they build behind the scenes.

21:08It's good, right? It's nice to see it. Have your fun on the pitch. Have that kind of pantomime villain piece, but off it, be decent. And I think at the heart of cricket players, they are like cricketers and cricket fans are very similar, aren't they, right? They aren't like football fans at the heart of it. You look at the players and you think, yeah, I could probably go for a beer with him. But you know what? We're supporting England. Let's get after them. And at the end of every Ashes series that I've seen or been on the Australia team have come over and clapped the Barmy Army for the support.

21:38And I think they see how special it is. And we often say that if Australia had a fan group like it, it would be great for the game, but unfortunately they don't. Well, when we had Pat on the show, you talked about earlier, we did the clip and asking what his favourite Barmy Army chant was. And he did, oh, it's big, it's bad. He was selected by his dad, Mitchie Marsh. And he said, obviously, that wasn't his dad anyway. Rob Marsh wasn't Mitch Marsh's dad. but we really said do you listen to it and he said yeah I mean look let's be realistic we're in the field for a long time and quite often not a lot's happening so the players do feed off it whether it's home crowd away crowd and there is a respect yes you may have moments where it gets close to the line but there is a massive respect from the fun that the Barmy Army has even with the Aussie players right in those moments there's a lot of fun behind it yeah and there's the respect there and I think there's the respect from the fans as well The Barmy Army at the heart is very self-policing as well.

22:35So you've got a lot of people that have done a lot of tours that sit in the middle of it near the trumpet player. And as you know, you've been on a tour before, there's a lot of people that try and get around the trumpet player and want to be part of that special atmosphere, which is great. But there's a lot of people in Barmy Army, legends that have done a lot of tours that will tell people straight if they're stepping too far. Or like, I know some of the songs do swear because I heard mentality. but a lot of the time the trumpet player and the guys that are around them write the songs will try and make sure there's no swearing in the songs is it is an environment where families can be as well and not just lads i'm one of huge respect i remember when pat's mom tragically passed away yeah they did the maria yeah um piece when phil hughes yeah died there was you know a great moment yeah i mean so and i remember he said like he remembered that and that's cricket for me yeah cricket is a big community like we can have the rivalries we can have the band so we can but ultimately we are all fans and players custodians of the game and we want this beautiful game of test cricket to be around in 30 40 50 years time and it would never go past past the boundary of respect did you find any friction when it went from fan group to business were there any challenges that risked i guess corrupting something corrupting maybe the wrong word but put at risk those core values when it became more of a commercial entity yes absolutely it's been a tightrope to be completely honest and it's been something that i know paul found very challenging before me and when i've taken over i've i've found very challenging it's it's the core values at the heart of everything we do that aligns from a business perspective and a supportive perspective um when people sign up to be a member there's a code of conduct that they have to sign up to and we police that and if anything oversteps the mark we'll make sure that there's consequences to that revoking membership has happened on the odd occasion but we've tried to make sure there's complete alignment between the business the people that run the business and the core value of what the barmy army is and i think by doing that we've been able to navigate through trickier times because like anything when when the commercial side of the operation grows there are people that just want it to be like it was and just want to to get a t-shirt on on a corner they don't want to be in a store or they they want to walk to the pub and have a pint with with the mates but we're charging for tickets at an event where they've got speakers on so there's always going to be that little clash and we have had challenges on over the years but we've always tried to navigate through saying look we are fans that run this operation at the heart of it we're massively passionate fans the same as you but to make this better to make this bigger to make the barmy army what we think it could be it's a global movement already it's in the oxford dictionary we've got to generate some commercial revenue behind it to then invest to grow and keep keep it going has the relationship from a business perspective with the ecb feeding off each other now you know getting to a stage where you're massively um complimentary if we want to call it that rather than having friction how important has that been very and i know there's been challenges over the years and there was again before my time they they set the 12th man and what people say in the barmy army to almost rival the barmy army to try and dilute the power the barmy army had but ultimately who wants to be a part of an official fan club when there's a thriving buoyant unofficial movement so a lot of the time when you go on tours you won't see the the fans wearing the official playing shirt you'll see them in the barmy army tour shirt with the design on the back because I think cricket fans know the cricket fans and they're not pretending to be the players and they almost don't want the official shirt they want the tour shirt they want to say I was on this tour this is a badge of honor and I think when the ECB realized that we weren't a threat we were someone that they should work with and and move together with the relationships really improved and and we help each other so they help us before a tour with security so when there was a Pakistan tour we were in touch with Reg who's the head of security when he did a recce in Pakistan talking about our hotels and our ground operators and we we are in touch with them on safety in the UK like I said to you offline we we've got direct comms with the ECB safety team where their eyes and ears and in the stand and we're helping them so I think a unified relationship is is far better than one that was disparate and potentially seen as a competitor but we'll never we'll never cross the line because as fans it's still our duty to be able to call out the ecb if we if we think that needs to happen and to do stuff like this right really cool merch we joked at the beginning but it's a huge part of the business is this a simple licensing agreement i know there's nothing england i don't think actually on it but are those types of things really important revenue for you as well how do they work yeah they're a massive part of what we do so it it's built on a very similar model to a football club or a cricket club but without the broadcast so our version of broadcast is travel so our travel revenue is is the large portion of what we do but behind that there is significant merchandise there is commercial partnerships and there's there's a lot of um media stuff as well so and events of course so with merchandise we've we've always tried to make stuff that the fan wants to wear not too i know you're in a retro shirt but um yeah you're picking up the bucket your hat that's reversible by the way if you see yourself as more of a subtle barmy army fan rather than an overtly proud trumpet for anyone on video you can see what it is yeah and what we've what we've done is morning and afternoon yeah the range for the ashes is is off the scale so we've got we've got kids shirts um we've we've got the full range that i think we've printed about 30 000 items for the tour so um that that alone is is a bit of a beast so we're um we've got people out there now just working on the project and making sure that we're able to offer people something with um with the brand on to showcase they've been to the ashes that's a great business in itself right i mean absolutely we we we think fundamentally that the merchandise side and the commercial partnership side of what we do is is really strong um we've we've nurtured that and we've really grown that over over the years and just just today we've confirmed our deal with tnt for to be our partner for the Ashes.

28:51So they'll be our major partner. So it goes hand in hand that the broadcasters for the series in the UK are sponsoring the fan group, which we see as a perfect fit because we'll, of course, be pushing people to watch the game who aren't fortunate enough to travel out as well. What does that mean? How do you work with TNT? So we'll do a partnership with them that they'll sponsor all the merchandise. They'll sponsor our social media graphics online. They'll become our major partner for the tour. So their brand will be everywhere. but in turn we will give them rights to the trumpet player and to come and sit with us, come to our events and we'll help them with content on the ground as much as anything else.

29:30So we've always worked with them on the past tours. They see the value in working with the fans and I guess you've got the official broadcast which has got the eyeballs on but another layer of that is the content piece from TNT and we see ourselves really slotting into that content piece quite well to bring the tour to life for people that are back at home watching on the telly because you know as well as I do now people that are watching the game on the telly are also watching on the phones yeah and you're seeing two different versions of the same game so you're seeing the version from the stands with the fans whilst you're scrolling and you're also watching the official broadcast on on the tv your socials are quality he's in charge of that like how does that feature in the grand plan yeah we've got a we've got a really good team we've got a team of four people that work really hard on the Barmy Army social media page and it's it's a massive part of what we do it's our voice it's our eyes it's our ears the noise we've generated over the years has been significant I mean when when we came in in 2018 we had 90 ,000 social media followers that was one of the big things that we needed to do we turned that from 90 ,000 to 2 million and it's it has become so powerful for us it's become our go-to to to spread our message spread our word but also So the commercial value can drive from that back to what we do as an organization.

30:47It's been brilliant. And we love the fact that we've become the tongue-in-cheek operator in the cricket space for England. We feel we can say things that the ECB might not or can't. And we've also got a serious side to that as well with what we did for Pat's mum and what we try and do to showcase the community of cricket, as well as the banter and the fun we have poking. from the surfboard jibs and things like that do you have situations where you know yes all this is fun we're looking at it and bringing fans to it it's the most important thing right fandom if we're boiling this whole chat down that's the only thing this is really about right collective fandom collective fandom in cricket at the top end is amazing fandom in other areas of cricket has been challenging like really challenging over the last few years yes we've seen things like the hundred short form cricket coming in and doing a great job again more people in but we're still looking at the fundamentals of the game should we say the counties those traditional businesses and they're quite worrying how from your perspective how how does the role you play in broader cricket filter down does it filter down to that level where you can try and help the game protect itself develop like modernize yeah i i feel a massive sense of responsibility for being a custodian for test cricket i think the barmy army has been really so passionate about that version of the sport and there's been more question marks in the last two three four five years around test cricket and we've we've really seen growth more than anything so it's our duty we're one of the real success stories around test cricket it's our duty to really shout from the hilltops about how good it is and what the future is like for test cricket we just hope that the the people that have the powers to schedule test cricket and to make sure that it has the opportunity to succeed that it should be given is given that opportunity and i think that's that that is the most important thing from a barmy army standpoint and then below that filtering down from that is without county cricket what is test cricket where do the test cricket players come from so it clearly needs reform but how and when does that reform happen and one of the biggest things that I've always said is unfortunately there has been no consultation with fans around what the future of county cricket should look like around what the future of test cricket should look like we've had some very top line conversations with the ECB but it doesn't feel like there's a real connection between what fans want to see and what the the key decision makers are doing about the game so i'll give you an example i was at world cricket connects which is the conference the mcc put on yearly about the future of cricket and the direction of cricket and some really really interesting people there and the conversation was very much around fans and around structure i was one of two fan representatives in a room of 100 people so there's 100 people that are controlling the game of cricket and making things happen and making key decisions in cricket but there's only two people that represent the fans in that room that have very I guess limited voice when it comes to things like scheduling things like helping with key decisions actually are about cricket and the future of cricket this isn't about whether we like county cricket or whether Leicester will survive or whether the Barmy army will go on another tour to the West Indies this is about the game and we should all come together collectively to try and work on a future of the game that works for everyone it's a massive problem globally as well isn't it I mean I say globally let's let's say internationally across the cricket community because if you're looking at test match teams you're really talking about england india and australia and then the rest of them finding it really hard to maintain their long form game so yes it's domestic but it is you know it's icc driven it's it has to be a collective movement there has to be work done across all of these countries to protect it because otherwise we love it right the india tour this summer was fantastic the ashes tours are amazing but like everything you still need to have a thriving community outside of that to maintain levels of competitiveness touring opportunities all of the things that make cricket great exactly right and and being brutally honest the the icc have have employed someone from the bcci to run the show and we need to make sure that we are coming together to shout as loud as we can to have a say in what we do and i feel it's the ecb's responsibility to be our our vocal point and we know they will be champion test cricket and champion in the future of the game but we need to make sure that we protect it as much as we can but going back going back to your point around the future of cricket and touring so beyond just the game of cricket the the value that an england tour has so the barbados tour that you went on that was worth 80 million dollars to barbados and that is a massive amount of investment into the island a small island for a seven day period of time that's 80 million dollars into circulation on the island for the bars for the hotels for the transport companies it's huge and produced a pitch to maximize it yeah i made sure people were there for five days so can you blame them no so and in In that same vein, an Ashes tour in 1718 was worth$400 million, $400 million Australian dollars into circulation over those six weeks.

36:17Now that was in 1718. This tour could be worth three quarters of a billion dollars for the Australian GDP, which just shows you the power that Test Cricket has beyond the game for tourism, for the local bars, restaurants. And we need to keep that going because it's amazing and it has serious impact and it's a reason for people to visit countries they've not visited before. How do you change it then? What should we be doing from your perspective? The next schedule of the World Test Championship is vitally important. If there is no recognition for the West Indies and for Sri Lanka, then that's a massive problem.

36:54And I think it's the ECB's duty to put on tours to those countries. The governance around scheduling is a huge problem in cricket. The ICC have to grab hold of that. They have to govern the schedule. They have to take it. There's so many private leagues with so much money. The ICC are the only people who can grab control of that and say, we're in charge of the schedule. This is when World Cups are played. This is when Test Cricket's played. This is when the IPL's played. And that would allow governing bodies to plan better to make sure that we are doing our bit to keep the lights on for West Indies Test Cricket and West Indies Sri Lanka Test Cricket, doing more in South Africa.

37:28And I think there's a duty of care from the ECB to make sure that that happens because we can't just say, West Indies come here every three years and play. Sri Lanka come here every three years and play. If they're not in a World Test Championship schedule, we need to be saying, okay, I know there's no points online. We're going to come and play two test series before we go to India for a five-test series, something like that. I mean, the tax on the players is huge as well, right? I mean, if we're really talking about calendars, it's test match, but then it's also fitting in every single short-form tournament that comes in.

38:02It's your one days. I mean, you roll straight out of it. and out of a test series. And we're playing one day in T20s against the teams straight after, quite often with maybe half of the team transferring over. So it's quite a tough one, isn't it? Because yes, you obviously have this side and you want to do it, but also more pressure on the players, more time away from home. It's hard to navigate. It is. And I think what is the sport without the players and the fans? There isn't much there, is there? and what we're seeing is the private leagues are popping up and offering players ridiculous amounts of money where they're having to make a decision on, do I put my family life first and say, okay, I'll take three weeks work in the UAE that means nothing to me personally, but I'll go and play for a team over there, take the money, but I might have to miss an England series or I might have to miss my county team.

38:56Then when they're getting later on in their careers, they're going to make that decision, right? It's probably the best thing to do for their families. I think what can the game do on an incentive basis to marginalise the private leagues and make it more lucrative to carry on playing for your country as long as you can, carry on playing the major series and make sure that the fans keep generating that interest in the game. and I think if we can change the structure of the incentives, which isn't easy because it's financial, isn't it? I think how could a player turn down a lot more money for a lot less work as they're getting older in their careers?

39:33Something has to change. What's your favourite place to go if it's not Australia? Where do you like? This is such a tough question because all the countries are so different. For me personally, it's probably New Zealand. It's just incredible. Oh, wow. It's unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. there was a day night test match in Mount Manganui and that place is just ridiculous and you just think oh this this could be me but on the flip side to that South Africa like Newlands yeah played there they had a day after the test match the Parmi Army played the uh the press um so it was day six of the test match we said and yeah so we played against the press it was good fun talk us through it what do you do walk out for um that for five hours yeah I missed a couple off Sam Elard, the opening bowler from TalkSport, and then she'll bury the mid-70s journalist.

40:20He got slog swept twice into the stands by me. That was me. Retired on 25. Ah, nice. Okay. Water top. Let someone else have a go. Right. And back in at the end or not? No, no, no. I think we had about 15 players wanting a bat. So I need to make sure we gave everyone a go. It's a beautiful ground though, right? Oh, it's incredible. That's another unique thing about the Barmy Army. So we'll go to these amazing tours and we'll work with the grounds. and they really thank us for coming there early and planning and working with them. They often say, do you want to do something at the end? So we played at Newlands the day after the test match.

40:53We played at Gaw, Gaw 4, and we had Dharmazala in the Himalayas in India. So Aruna De Silva, he was the chairman of the IPL. He's the guy that governs the ground there. I built a relationship with him and he said, let's have a game the day after the test match. So the day after the test match, we were playing in the Himalayas against some monks. It's beautiful. I remember seeing that in the World Cup in 23. And, yeah, I'm in the background. Snow on the hills, yeah. That's the beautiful thing about cricket. You play in some incredible places. And that's what one of the major addictions to the Barmy Army is.

41:27Like, you can go to the Himalayas, you can go to see the Dalai Lama in the morning and go to the Test Match in the afternoon if you want. What's the best one in Australia? Two questions. What's the most fun and what's the best one, like, operationally? for you as a business versus you as a fan great question so the most fun by country mile melbourne i think we've we've got a christmas day dinner uh at the crown casino and we've got one one thousand five hundred people single serve dinner in in the crown um we're in touch with guinness world records we think it might be the biggest ever single serve christmas dinner at the same time so we're working with them on that um how many turkeys well exactly i mean there's the stuff we want to know yeah how many turkeys yeah so can you actually get the make sure you get the data we will how many turkeys how many potatoes how many sprouts get it out two that might be two world records the most turkeys in one single serve anyway um but then melbourne just in itself we have so many parties going on there's so much going on that's always the biggest tour so to give you the numbers behind it out of the people that were traveling there over half of the people will be in melbourne all at once so that's for us is the biggest operational task so that's the hardest operationally but the most fun if you get it right and probably the best in terms of the business is Adelaide because it's the the stadium is beautiful it's so close to the CBD you walk over the bridge it's very very easy it's quite small and you've got the old historical nature and feel to it so you've got the grass bank with this beautiful stadium around it and it was where the Barmy Army was founded so is it yeah yeah in Adelaide should know that didn't there's a plaque on the on the scoreboard oh I bet the Aussies love that yeah yeah yeah I love to hate it kind of separate point but just while we were talking about grounds is looking at the destination for the grounds for the next Ashes here no Headingley no Old Trafford I mean Edgbaston Trent Bridge if we can call we can't really call that North can we our Northern fans would would criticize my waitress accent again for the saying something like that but that is a that seems like a massive shame slash well not an oversight but just what's the prioritisation being here you can't lose I mean Headingley in particular the moments we've had there over the years it's crazy how you can lose Headingley it has generated so many amazing Ashes moments like that people I know people say well it doesn't matter what the ground is for an amazing moment it can happen anywhere but there's something magical about Headingley in an Ashes test match and things happening so it is devastating and it's devastating for the counties it's a massive loss but on the flip side to that like Rod Bransgrove at the AGS Bowl for Hampshire has done such a great job and did a great job during COVID.

44:06For him to get an Ashes test match is very good news for Hampshire and for Rod. But I think we've got to do better as cricket with the Ashes. And I've been saying this ever since the Olympic Stadium was built. Why can't we have a test match at the Olympic Stadium? Why can't we do that during the summer? You can get 60 ,000 people and have an amazing, have the biggest ever test match in the UK or even have an IPL game there. let's try and utilise the facilities we've got and generate a bit more noise around the game. And I think we've got the facilities. We just need to have a bit of foresight and try something new.

44:42Have you ever got an answer to that? I don't think anyone really knows. Welcome to sport. Yeah, I'll ask Richard Gould and I'll see what he says. I mean, it is perfectly set up, isn't it? Because obviously, what, the athletic stadium means that you get the space. Yeah, I think the argument would be, well the Oval and Lords have got to get a test match every year so how could we but maybe sometimes that there is an opportunity to do that we should do it I just feel like on a cycle that you know Old Trafford or Headingley I completely agree you want to spread it around and it's great to reward the grounds where a lot of work's gone into it and you know the south coast is very different to London yes I'm not just going to package that all in one yeah yeah but if it's going on a cycle it should be Old Trafford and or Headingley it shouldn't be neither of the too because you're just taking it out from such a passionate part of this country for its cricket yeah exactly and and you create divide by doing that and there's no need to like that there is absolutely no need to create division by taking a north-based test match out of the ashes series i mean the if you are traveling from manchester sheffield leeds durham to get to a test match you're traveling you spend a long time to get to trent bridge or edgbaston and it's amazing is it worth it so i'll just watch it on tv so again that part of the nation is is already got the back up a little bit against the ashes so we'll see yeah look kind of closing into the final focus let's look at the most important stuff so you know we talked about it obviously we're positive what do you think if i'm putting you on the line what's what's going to happen i mean obviously we're going to win so how much are we going to win by?

46:22I'd be disappointed if it wasn't 5-0. Yeah, same. To them. No, I think in all honesty, I genuinely do, I fancy us in Perth for that first test. New conditions, new format, and then it's anyone's game in Brisbane. It's a day-nighter, it's at the Gabba, it's going to be swinging all over with a pink ball, it'll be finished in three days, but it could go either way. Waxley surely had to play that one, didn't he? I know, I know, it's devastating, but I'm excited by our bowling attack. So let's hope that out of those first two tests, we take one of them, maybe two of them. So let's say 1-1 going into the third test.

47:02Adelaide, tough place to go, but the England fans will be strong. And if it's 2-1 to either team going into Melbourne-Sydney, we've got an amazing spectacle on our hands. It will be. I mean, that would be incredible, wouldn't it? That's kind of your dream for you guys. Obviously with the business hat on and the fan hat. A dream on it, yeah. if we are if we're winning going into Melbourne wow I don't think I'll be so excited Melbourne strong place for us yeah I fancy always fancy us in Melbourne it's going to be so much on fitness isn't it I mean obviously we mentioned fitness on Australia's side but for us you know you've got to have Wood and or Archer yeah exactly and like Kars as well Kars he looks like the real deal and someone you need warriors in an actual series and he looks like someone that's up for the fight so yeah I think can we take 20 wickets?