Barney Pascall: Rugby 7’s is Great Product BUT can it be Great Business (Ep135)

31:39Yeah, absolutely. And that was the framing. Like unoffensive, taking what we know, going back to the stuff we've spoken about before, to be an opportunity within the game of rugby sevens and taking hold of it and giving opportunities for players within those regions. So absolutely. And I think more in the emerging markets, just trying to add to their portfolio of what happens in their country. And we were very, very clear on that strategically from the word go, compared to like in England or France. Can we use it as a segue to talk more broadly about the impact this has on rugby then? Because this was some of the bits that I found most interesting.

32:09And literally, I found that just before we started recording. So you've educated me already. But I think everyone else would find it very interesting. And it links back to when you were just saying about the Celtic and the challenges that we've had in, should we say, GB, this country with Sevens. And where some of the value of this really can be. If you create a product like this and you give a career opportunity to Sevens players, you're helping the whole ecosystem here. you told me there's a number of sevens players um that you know well sorry rugby players that began life as sevens players and are now playing 15 so there's an interesting crossover in here but also if you do this well you're playing a real i guess community role you're playing a role for the broader sport there's a big element of this which is hugely complementary to more than just ultimate sevens i guess the place to start for me with that and you'll have to stop me if i waffle on but i go back to um you know again some of my background with the academy piece so in in in the uk uh i run a just to confuse matters a business called ultimate rugby sevens got the keyword in their rugby um which has been around for over a decade um started very small very organically and it's grown we've now got over a thousand members in the academy it's a it's a membership model but but the reason i start there is because what the academy was really it was a different way for young aspiring rugby players to enjoy and experience the game of rugby.

33:29It was meant to be, let's have some fun, players, be creative. Actually, can it be rugby's cool version? Because it is good times, sunshine, high fives. And that was the ethos. And that's absolutely, we've picked up some of that juice and put it into what we believe we can do with Ultimate Sevens, the championship. But kind of coming back to your point, And what I think we can therefore do with the sort of top of the pie, the top of the pyramid, if you like, with the championship, is do more of that, is show more people a route into rugby and a route into the rugby ecosystem. People have been talking a lot recently and in years gone by of, what can rugby do?

34:11They need to do something differently. It's a bit of a crossroads in terms of engagement, in terms of fandom, in terms of how it's kind of modernising. I think we're doing that. I don't think we're the only answer, to be clear. I don't think it's like the silver bullet for rugby, but I think it can be part of that. I think it can be part of that solution. You know, we are in there trying to be creative and trying to do it. And we've used the academy and that connection with grassroots, not as an afterthought, not let's have a league and then we should probably do some community stuff because, you know, that's what leagues need to do.

34:42We've got a blueprint for that. And now the championship can start to enhance that. And we can build into different regions all over the world because we know Rugby 7 has actually got a very, legitimate global footprint where it's played in many countries we know that it is i think it's one in five people introduced to rugby as an audience um uh using sevens i think that goes to one in three for women and youth so that that number broadly goes down it more condensed when you just look at new new females coming into the game and younger people coming into the game and i don't think we've i think we've taken that for a spin i really don't going back to the point we made earlier before we started, around 50 % of the teams, Canada and England, in the World Cup final, those players, the female, the women's World Cup final, started their careers, were either born or raised in sevens.

35:36Sevens is a hotbed for talent. It's also the same with the men's game. The amount of male players out there that people would recognise, that would follow on Instagram, that started in sevens, and that talk so fondly about that being part of their rugby journey and a lot of countries still invest in that. It's a shame that it wasn't able to work in England, in GB, in some of the Celtic nations. But there is a revival in some of that happening at this moment in time. And I think that we could absolutely play our part in that broader ecosystem for the reasons I've described, either at grassroots level or introducing people to this sport and to this ecosystem.

36:11When you talk about introducing people, again, we've come back to the point of the importance of individuals and star quality. And it must help, particularly you highlighted women there in the young women is integration that the most famous rugby star in the world i think we can say is a female rugby sevens player right now elona mar's been amazing at what she's done she's created a brand around herself where rugby is a part of it it's not the only thing it's a part of it but that's the type of thing if you're looking for inspiration if you're looking for access how much of an influence does it make i mean of course you want to have more of these individuals um but does it does it make an impact do you think to the sport i i think it absolutely does and i think what what elona has been able to do for herself for her brand but and i and i don't know this obviously you'd have to ask her but like i think you know some of the credit absolutely belongs in when she was touring with the usa on the world series and and making that content and and i think more broadly what it does is it speaks to you know rugby sevens players i mentioned earlier their kind of prowess as athletes the way they They dedicate themselves the way that they kind of train.

37:16And it's an amazing role model piece. It's an amazing role in terms of sport generally, the way they conduct themselves, the way they have to be able to perform, but also live in between as a lot of us do. And by that, I mean, they're not playing a Premier League game every single week. You know, they have to go to high, high levels of intensity and then manage themselves in between like gaps, you know, like we can relate to. And I think that's what she's been able to build on and obviously now gone into different areas and really built on that. but I think that role model piece is absolutely enormous and we have rising stars existing stars within that frame and we absolutely want to give them a profile and a platform to be able to do more I don't think it's as easy as saying we're going to create another 10 Ilonis in year one but I absolutely and I think World Rugby would agree with this based on what they're doing some of their strategy around giving athletes more support around their social media around how they raise their profile and how they use what they're doing within the sevens context to really promote that body image and and athleticism and nutrition and all those things that comes with rugby and rugby sevens and again quite frankly it's just it's just cooler and more relatable to a younger audience try to get her in we've we've had we have you good one we have absolutely and i make no uh pretend about this wanted to and have engaged Ilona via the right channels about this competition because we think it would be perfect and we think hopefully it would be an opportunity for her to support something that you know where she recognises where she came from and other athletes that you know she's played with in those it's a little catch up I mean Jenny I think you know for you looking at building the best competition in the sport you want as we said the best people in the sport the key always is just the ambitions of the individuals yeah exactly I've seen it crazy not to ask the question No, absolutely.

39:07And again, I was really, really conscious and it's a theme as you probably picked out is that, you know, what we wanted to do is do it, to do it in the right way and openly because I think, you know, if you're going to talk the talk about being complimentary, you've got to kind of walk it as well. And so we've done that. So conversation is ongoing. love it should we talk about the actual business side of it the easy i call it a cheap shot before again that we came on is does this work as a natural business do we get people to care i think you've done an amazing job of showing why people can care will care and and should care um and i think that's both from a participation perspective and a viewer's perspective we will always come at it from a critical lens from a financial perspective this all does sound great again but the reality is you have to have a model that supports this you can't have something we've mentioned uh beer as well in there that you know just is funded by owners continue having to put money into it you need fans through the door you need partnerships i'd imagine you want broadcast maybe more should talk about that but how are you looking to not just build great product but great business yeah so i think that starts with creating a business model that has a really solid foundation now okay insert very obvious statement barney but that that is that is that is where we started how we did that was we worked with um using existing data data that was there tangible across benchmarked properties like the world series um and that's what not like for like but clearly it's the same sport and it's it's got pockets of success um and other properties we looked at different markets and market indexed and looked at kind of you know behaviors of fans and so on so we brought all that together and i think to be fair we were really measured we didn't just put you know x tens of millions against sponsorship in year one just because those properties have had that over time and as a result we also looked at how we control our costs so as a central ownership single entity ownership structure we own everything at this point in time yep we're able to including the teams including the teams like other leagues we're able to grow value in in both the league ip and in the team IP, which we want to do over the period of time, and we can control the cost by centralising them.

41:18So when it comes to broadcast production, when it comes to sports presentation, when it comes to hiring the venues, we can pick and we can choose those at our discretion when it comes to paying the players and the staff and the team. We can kind of set those parameters as well. So when we built our model out, we were able to do that kind of very legitimately without really scary things happening nine months down the line that we weren't aware of because also within the group portfolio there are other businesses that do some of this like wsx and so we've got some other benchmarking that's very real and very tangible that we can use so that's something like a g tech is very sensible to an extent as well to the point where you have a 17 let's say thousand seats and you can make a great event around it you can have a legitimate and realistic number of tickets to sell without overstretching yourself you're not going straight to the totem hotspur stadium and trying to put yourself through all of that but then aspirations can of course be always to end up in those massive stadia yeah again it speaks to the speaks to the theme there which was like let's be measured about this guys let's not you know dare i say make some of the mistakes that that that have and can be made around assumptions on fandom and people coming through the door in year one um let's build it and you know brentford is the biggest stadium we're going to i remember you know it was an amazing opportunity because of the size of the stadium as you as you describe because of the type of stadium is the modern type of stadium isn't their ambitions as a club to be an amazing venue and they really are but the other ones as well cardiff represents a true rugby you know proper rugby heritage um with a with a with a good size but again um something that we felt was achievable in that market beer it's again relatively um small stadium but in the heartland of rugby in the south west of france we always said that france was a strategic market for us and so to have the embryo of that there really important i'd imagine broadcast is really important as it always is what type of broadcast clean slate traditionals ott's free to airs paid how do you how do you look at this so we set out very clearly to drive eyeballs and awareness of this product so in sevens you have you have got and again i didn't mention this with it with the olympic kind of side of things as well but even so whether it World Series sort of data or whether it be the Olympic data, you've got the fastest growing digital property in rugby.

43:38And that's come through from 2016. Obviously, Tokyo, slightly different with COVID, but in 2024, massive results from a digital viewership perspective and indeed live event attendance. And indeed, some of the numbers coming out of World Rugby from last year with the views and so on. But we were very, very clear we wanted to get eyeballs on this. And so for us, it was a multimodal approach. Again, you're probably thinking you're sitting on the fence with some of these things, but we knew we wanted to go and get traditional linear channels in different parts of the world, which we have done. The reason I'm refraining is because, you know, just before they've finally signed on the dotted line, but they are from the UK, from Australia, from New Zealand, from Fiji, from the US.

44:17And we can basically be really agile with that. We've not signed our life away. It's not behind a paywall. Some of them are, there are rights deals involved, but we've also gone heavy on how they support us marketing it, as opposed to turning around and saying, give us lots and lots of money, which is always going to be challenging in year one, but let's really market it and get eyeballs on it. Equally, we want to go through our own channels organically, YouTube, and work with the influencer base and the strategic partners we have there to co-stream and to really kind of drive eyeballs. So it's eyeballs, and that's what we think this sport is.

44:48So modern media strategy, basically, right? Yeah, absolutely. And that's a perfectly good answer. It's not dodging, don't worry. No, no, no. Because sometimes you feel that you're trying to cover all bases, But ultimately, I think rugby traditionally is behind a paywall, not exclusively. There are obviously channels that want to own it, like ITV in England, in the UK. And I think the opportunity we have, you know, speaking about everything we've spoken about, about this sport being a really viable, snackable, digital first product, that's where the value comes. That is absolutely where the value comes.

45:22I think in three years' time, when we've built it, we've created a bit of market tension, there could be some interesting plays about different markets wanting to say well actually you've shown and you've proven let's pay for this right now the value comes from getting people aware of the sport getting more eyeballs on it sponsorships partnerships yep I mean we've got some great partners already through the door so Reebok was an amazing one to land in terms of a kit and performance partner I think there I try not to make that decision based on my overwhelming nostalgia for the brand as a young person and I know you can't call me out you can't call me out but like most of the time anyway honestly the nanos they have been my go to but I promise you it wasn't made on that decision we had a great connection there they are trying to now grow and build themselves within obviously they've got a base in the US and all over the world but like particularly in the UK and Europe so we've got a great partner in them we've got you know recovery and performance partners in high price we've got FX partners in Corpe we've got you know our ticketing partner in Fever our destination sport group in travel and there are multiple other conversations on.

46:28So that is also in a really good place, in a healthy place and we know that we can, once we've got our first season, we can go out and build further. It's a really good list. How did you find those discussions with the brands and them buying into what you were talking about? Because again, let's just be very clear, these companies are pitched and have a huge amount of opportunity. So to choose you, to get them on board. I think the effort there was really in, again, how we were presenting the sport. I think there is the data that we spoke about and the kind of the interest in this sport and how that's grown.

47:01But I also think it's about making a play on what the opportunities are. So, for example, in, you know, again, take the UK. Of the rugby ecosystem, you've got 2.1 million followers, fans that are dedicating themselves to following seven specific content. and I think that's interesting the way sponsorship is potentially going and the way we can be creative with it and this is again how we kind of played it into these partners is what's the value of having really engaged smaller communities of fans that have got potential for growth versus just being able to turn around and put a number on a piece of paper going there are 500 million rugby fans globally right so for us I think it's about nurturing that community and then building it and then of course turning around to them going again through that lens of younger audience more diverse audience already how can you be a brand that helps grow with us so this is not about going out to a brand and going we're a sports property therefore for some led and front of shirt can you please give us loads of money this is about turning around to a brand and going we are a property with legacy in the sport itself with a great way of reframing and modernizing the sport that's complementary that the rugby ecosystem is now behind and wants to optimize and wants to help grow, how do you want to come and help us grow?

48:21And actually, some of the hard work, I'll be completely honest with you, is that there are brands that are more endemic within rugby. We know what some of those are. And we really want those brands to want to be involved in this because we think it can still support them. But there are other brands out there that are less sort of inclined. They may be looking at other properties and suddenly we've got an opportunity that we've been able to say, this is how rugby can be the future this is how rugby can be this is how we can be a new era for rugby and that's been interesting to them are you nfl modeling it to the extent where central brokerage of deals across even the teams so correct are you selling front of shirts for the teams and all of them will have different front of shirts um we we went out with great agility and our ability to do that because we have that opportunity as a single uh as i said as a central ownership model um and and what it gives us in year one is the ability to craft these packages and these sort of sponsorship deals depending on what the brand is looking for what they want if there's one in in england or france or spain for example they might be quite interested in that team and those players and how we kind of use that i think in the future and this then goes to our opportunity to build value in the uh in the team brands we have ambitions post year three to start selling franchises so i'm sure you're going to come on to so what we would do there is that we would use the next couple of years to start to carve out specific rights with from a team perspective and then transfer those over to the incorporated entities that they then become and then you know transfer those with the sale to the owners.

49:47I was going to ask literally as the next question did you take or do you take inspiration in the 100 model? Very easy to set these up as I think we mentioned before and go right we'll sell franchises from day one you'll put a price that's very hard to justify you then put yourself potentially on a back foot with investors because you're always looking at trying to reclaim some of that value and then build on it you've got a chance centralizing it for the first few years to prove the value of the product like the hundred did and then when the time comes look for investment as you said you will were you able to do that kind of model i guess because of the support that you had from the ownership structures that you have bsg has sunderland it has motocross right as well you now got ultimate sevens you're part of a portfolio multi-sport portfolio you've got a major asset there in in sunderland you've got an emerging asset here you've got good investors to be able to do this amazing investors and like you know but again not just not just a case of coming in on a on a women of prayer and a concept as i mentioned you know we did our detailed modeling to begin with with this and then you know buyer saw the the the um i think the opportunity backed it um that comes with the academy piece as well by the way the academy is a is a commercial uh entity as well and that's come that's come along with it um and uh yeah it absolutely gave us the opportunity to be agile with that single entity ownership structure, which we wouldn't have been able to do if we, for example, had to sell all of the teams in year one, which I think would have been a very short runway to sell any of the teams, given that it's a new venture and it's a new property.

51:18So this absolutely gives us a lot of flexibility, gives us the ability to manage costs, but we're very, very lucky to be backed by buyer to be able to make those decisions and make those choices and learn over the next three years from both ourselves and other leagues. You mentioned 100. I think it's amazing to even be, quite frankly, at this moment, I'm in the same breath as 100. Very lucky to meet Vic, the CEO, last year. And he was fantastic. He recently invited to a game over at Lourdes, which was incredible. I hope that I am in a similar position to invite him back in five years' time and do all that.

51:52And I absolutely will. But again, it's using those properties as kind of, to a degree, there's a bit of a benchmarking and in some cases kind of a North Star about how you do this. But there's context that you've got to consider as well, right? So the 100 obviously having existing infrastructure clubs that they could work with within the ECB and county cricket. We don't have that. So we've got to be careful that we also don't completely copy because we've got to be, again, as I say, contextually relevant. I think that's where the play with the clubs being agile was a smart one, time will tell, because from an owner's perspective, I've not turned around and gone, you can buy this, but you have to buy it in this city, in this part of the world.

52:39There is agility there. And there's a framing around connecting to fans also. So, you know, an obvious example, Solforoth, with the Spanish and the Latin America, how can you build fandom there? How can you get them to support through the players, through the identity, through the journey and the story? And then how many potential buyers want to really buy into that, as opposed to it just being a random piece of IP or if it has to be attached to Madrid, for example. Best practice share through the group, through a Sunderland, into Ultimate Sevens, into Motocross. How do you guys work together, learn from each other?

53:09Sports, you know, now, obviously, we talk about it again so regularly. there are obviously massive points of difference. There are so many points of similarity. Yeah, we're very lucky. Lucky in the executive team at Bayer that Bayer kind of pulled together with Tom, obviously, and Scott and Mike and Lou and Gareth, all being experts in their fields from amazing sports properties, from Formula One to Formula E to NFL to football, Premier League, and so on. So they've been able to, and they're on hand. We're in the same office. So I can talk to them, I can chat to them, I can be more formal. Obviously, we have regular meetings on that kind of side of things.

53:43Very, very lucky to have them on board or to have them supporting this. And then, indeed, from the different properties, WSX is a great example. That is a travelling competition. It goes more globally. So they've got, they also have to ship in, like, 400 tonnes of dirt, which we don't have to do, which is a healthy thing that we don't have to do. But again, in terms of kind of, like, putting on a show and putting on a kind of an atmosphere, they're well-versed in that. So, again, we're able to look at kind of stadium economics and how we make sure we don't, you know, mismanage our budgets and mismanage our kind of modelling.

54:16Yeah, and Sunderland's obviously an unbelievable story there and obviously what they're achieving and what they have achieved. Maybe less of a direct crossover between a football club and a kind of emerging sports league, but again, you know, a lot of clout, a lot of people that we can lean on and we can kind of, you know, we can work with to kind of help us. But I think, you know, it's more interesting now in the modern day. Crossover doesn't necessarily mean just sharing fan best practices or whatever. it's technologies it's exposures to new and emerging things you know someone may go and pitch a business that isn't right for Sunderland but could be fantastic for you guys you then get to integrate that you give them a platform to test products you get access to what they're offering and suddenly just being a part of that ecosystem has built immense value for you absolutely so yeah no you've hit the nail on the head and there have been those examples of of uh of organizations companies partners whether it be potentially a brand or a sponsor or whether it be kind of emerging tech um you know there's a business that want that does uh you know kind of um looks at data across all sports and builds it into kind of betting markets and you know that side of things and maybe how that could work with what we're doing in the future and so on so there's there's there's absolutely loads of that opportunity hsbc uh world series complementary absolutely yeah yeah absolutely and that was a and that was an important part i meant to ask that earlier when we were talking about no no the premise of the absolute part of the premise of this was to look because I say it's that window, that gap that exists between June and really mid to late November.

55:39And that kind of high level, elite level rugby sevens using the best players in the world. So being really, really pointed with that. We have the best players in the world playing. And again, Tom Mitchell, my director of sport, held his nerve, worked really hard on cultivating that pool. I think people are realising like, it's not like we got three and then the rest. Yeah. And in respect to the rest. but like again within a sporting context you know it would be like the equivalent of creating a league with Mo Salah Erling Haaland and then loads of amazing footballers from you know League One and the National Leagues that's fine and you could sell it maybe on the back of those kind of personalities but we were really really really clear to go after the best players in the world so the equivalent is we've got four from Chelsea five from Man City ten from Arsenal and so on and so forth just to put it into context that hopefully others can understand.

56:32Did you see Eddie Hearn's comments in the last... Yeah, that's a really interesting one actually. We've been playing around with that in the office because obviously you've seen loads of memes and loads of like social posts now on this could be the answer to GB7s. Listen, who wouldn't like to see Pollock and Smith and Arundel play you know, for GB7s particularly given GB7s have had those challenges of late... You know, so, so, you know, look, that's PR, oh, that's kind of noise and it's positive and it helps us. Our interesting play is kind of going, you know, we grapple with this in the office and say, we don't need that.

57:08We've got Maddie Levi and Henry Hutchinson. I completely agree. Do you know what I mean? But you know, the thing that, aside from it just being, let's say, noise, right, around it, which noise is good. If you actually look at what he's saying, it's like, okay, wants to win trophies, okay, can do that. Wants to win an Olympic gold. And rugby, how do you win an Olympic gold? Yep. Has to be sevens. has to be sevens so even even as like a conversation starter an ambition for one of the top rugby brands individual brands players coming from you know some of the best marketers of players yeah into that conversation sevens automatically has to feature because that is the only way he's getting his hands on Olympic gold 100 % and let me make it let me stay on the record Henry Pollock wants to play in this competition to get ready for the Olympics he's welcome as are the others that were mentioned they can come along we've built the model for the future for crossover athletes for 15s athletes to come and be part of this.

57:58But we built it for rugby sevens players as a foundation, okay? Because what we absolutely also believe, we know that the best players in the world can absolutely outperform in the Olympics and should be playing in the Olympics from the seven series. And where we want to be in the future is one of the most followed sports in the world. And equally within rugby terms, we want to be in a position where the sevens players are able to make that choice. Like people like Maddy are making, I'm a sevens player. Is that the point? If you do start getting a Henry Pollock type person in, is that the point where you can risk the goodwill, the good relationships that you have built?

58:37Because I'm just thinking if you run, you would run, let's say in the current format into the first week or so of the prem and we come back to calendar alignment, making sure you're in the slot, but that is the thing you'll need to make sure that you maintain if you're going to keep those relationships as they are. That collaborative approach is going to be... Yeah, it'll be tested. But I think, look, when we've got two, three years under our belt, I think, you know, we're going to be in a position where we can, again, as you say, not jeopardise, but just be a little bit more robust with those conversations.

59:06I think we want to give players choice as well. And actually, the really interesting thing, particularly on both sides, and obviously the noise recently with the male, but particularly with the females, how many of them would love to have either played in the Olympics and speak very fondly of it, or would like to come back to the Olympics in LA 28 or further afield? let's give athletes the choice as well. And that's the amazing thing, right? The Olympics, what I took from what you said is you can't have the Olympics as the fundamental reason and driver of all of Rugby Sevens. You have to have to compete in that Olympics really a functioning high-end professional level to then once every four years play.

59:41That's what you're providing, right? So you're giving that access to the Olympics but the fundamentals isn't you're coming here to win Olympic gold. You're coming here to play an amazing sport in a really cool league that you're going to love and that's going to help you achieve that. But the fact that you have that as an end destination is probably exactly where you need the Olympics to play its part for you. Absolutely. The opportunity to go and... Absolutely. And it goes back to the piece about being complimentary, not just being clickbait. It's meaningful because Rugby Sevens has got that opportunity that other sports and, indeed, Rugby Fifteens doesn't necessarily have.

1:00:14It's got its own calendar. It's got its own challenges and also those amazing things that are happening in it. But this is where Rugby Sevens can live. and I absolutely believe that it can start to give interesting decisions and opportunities for both men and women's players that maybe exist in 15s that have existed in sevens or maybe they've only existed in 15s and they suddenly turn around and go, that would be kind of cool. That would be a nice opportunity. And it can pay me because we've created success through commercial models as well. So no, absolutely. And the Olympics has to play its part.

1:00:44And we've always said, you know, we need a really healthy, we need to drive quality into this ecosystem to make sure it stays in the Olympics as well. Now, again, I'm not saying that we're the only reason that's going to happen. There's lots of good work happening with lots of good people, but it's a significant investment into this ecosystem. Let's make no mistake about it. It has to, absolutely. And as a result of that, we drive quality, and the Olympics go, that has to stay in this. We've seen it with Commonwealth Games, right? Being dropped from the roster there is not what you want to see.

1:01:12You've got to work hard to keep these things in. You've got to keep them at the top. you're looking around that finals weekend let's say the GTA you're looking around that stadium this is the first event what do you expect to see from an audience perspective who do you reckon is going to be coming to this buying into this really good question so we set out pretty early on looking at kind of our target audience and again I'm conscious of my son I can try and have my cake and eat it but we were really comfortable making the existing kind of rugby ecosystem uncomfortable, challenging their perceptions.

1:01:54We didn't want to offend anybody. So what I mean by that is we didn't want to make any mistakes by saying, this is a new property and if you like rugby or you know who so-and-so is, this isn't for you. This was absolutely about going, this is still rugby. This is still a game of rugby sevens with all its rich heritage. So make sure we bring that kind of religiously rugby group with us. equally our avatar our kind of focus point was a 24 year old underrepresented male rugby fan 24 year old new female rugby fan I think there are some differences in those two given the nature and I think that naturally expands to that kind of 18 to 35 market where you've got an opportunity to have a something in your calendar that is rugby that gives you a chance to come and enjoy it to follow it to get behind it that you might not want to go to kind of every Saturday or you might find going to Twickenham, you might really like going to Twickenham, but actually it's maybe out of your price range.

1:02:45So this gives that kind of sweet spot and that's why I kind of describe that avatar in the way I do. Really cool product, people can relate to as well, like culturally relevant. I know that's thrown around a lot, but we have absolutely tried in our marketing and in our branding to create something that can connect more culturally for that kind of generation. And then I think what happens after that is the following. I think you've got 12 to 18 year olds, that's kind of the academy sweet spot that we already have as an ecosystem it's aspirational they can actually feel like they can touch and connect with these athletes in a way that they may be they can't with other sports it's more relatable we've been doing that with academy for many years and i think we can do that more so there's that group it's safe they can come maybe without their parents um but that's kind of that group of people then there's people like me who you know like to think i'm cool but probably not but uh but by being connected to that loving rugby, liking sport, liking entertainment, see that as a place I can be connected to.

1:03:42And I might bring my daughter who's eight years old. And then again, the generation that like Twickenham or like Harlequins or like Saracens, they'll keep doing that. But we welcome them as well. Absolutely, 100%. We like to think that they're going to turn on the TV and still look at it because they like rugby. Or they'll come to the event because actually they recognize that there's a future here and there's something that they can come and enjoy. So, again, sounds a bit cake and eat it. I appreciate, but, you know, I think that's what this product can do. And the last thing you want to do is come on here and say, we don't want existing rugby.

1:04:13It's not true. You want anyone that wants to come and enjoy the game of rugby and have a great time, I would imagine. Yes. But, you know, again, coming back to cricket, what I found interesting when they were talking about the reasons why The 100 was created was because of all the research they'd done. Let's say there was a million people that would actively consume cricket in, let's say, England. I think it probably was the UK, but let's just say England each year. it was really the same million people that were just reused throughout the different formats and it wasn't really anything that grew or offered outside of it so the reason for some of this change the reason for some of the change in positioning was to try and get more than one million people to actually experience the game of cricket if you can get all of the people that you've already got interested in the sport which is a huge value of course being an existing property plus then open up something else i think that's a very fair answer and probably a great place um to wrap it up but i've loved it i've really really enjoyed it and i have very little doubt that your first few events will be great if you can deliver exactly what you've just taught us through so a huge thank you for for coming in and guys and girls and anyone watching this get yourself down there wherever it may be i'm sure i'm sure you'll have a good time but seriously thank you bonnie Thank you, Charlie, so much for having me.

1:05:25Really appreciate it. Really appreciate the welcome, the honest conversation. And yeah, very grateful. Thank you. Thank you so much to Barney for joining us and talking through the Ultimate 7 story and its objectives. Far from being able or wanting to comment on whether we think this will be a success or not, you have to back innovation and attempts to create new product and opportunity when done in the right way. A full appreciation of the upside with a realistic assessment of the challenges and how to overcome them. with Barney and Beer behind the scenes. I back them to make this an excellent debut tournament and back it up in the years to come.

1:05:58I hope you enjoyed the show. Now, if you want to see more from today's show, you can do so by going to YouTube or any of our other social channels across Instagram, TikTok, and of course, Substack. There are more snippets to share and bite-sized chunks to consume. And whilst you're there, please do like, subscribe, and follow the show. As you'll hear from your other favorite pods, it makes a huge difference when bringing you the best guests and conversations from around the world of sport, which is of course our endless aim thank you again for tuning in and we'll see you next week as this episode is brought to you by air wallacks i wanted to share a piece of content created to announce air wallacks's partnership with arsenal earlier this year fans players on re spike lee with partnerships now having a huge content impact this is one of the best you'll see turn your video on or watch it separately from the link in the bio who's this new arsenal partner Air who?

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