Brett Gosper: How the NFL Plans to Conquer the World (Ep131)

17:13Brett Gosper:So how do you choose which teams go and play? Because from a branding perspective, I imagine when you've got all these fans, that's a huge opportunity for the teams that do get a chance to go and move into these markets, to own part of those regions. Like, as you mentioned, the Jags have been so consistently on the ground here.

17:30Business of Sport Hosts:I mean, it's to do with scheduling and matchup of games and broadcast audiences in the States and so on, it often drives that to a certain extent. But increasingly, those games are a higher quality. Internationally, fewer games are allowed to be protected now, and there's a much more belief we need as these markets become more mature or sophisticated. The match-up counts in London. You'll sell good match-ups and you won't sell bad match-ups, whereas in a new market, it's the NFL will turn up because it's fresh and new and so on. So we look to see which markets like which teams, not always consistent, which for some reason, some teams resonate better in certain markets.

18:10Business of Sport Hosts:But they all have to receive or host a game twice over an eight-year period in the current rotation. And then you work out who's the matchup we're going to put with them.

18:19Brett Gosper:And the economics of those games, is that then kind of centrally pooled and distributed evenly? Or is it weighted towards some of the teams that get to play?

18:29Business of Sport Hosts:It's not weighted. It's equally distributed. So in other words, if you lose a game, you're going to lose some money. but over the eight-year period, it's going to come out in the wash equally. Around about 80 % of the NFL club revenues are shared equally. So it's a very equal process of equalizing over that eight-year period.

18:47Brett Gosper:How does P &L work for international versus domestic? Same P &L. Same P &L.

18:52Business of Sport Hosts:I mean, we can obviously work out what comes from international and what comes from domestic, but we're all... And so I'm really sorry.

19:02Brett Gosper:I'm very naive. when you choose Wembley for a Jags game.

19:06Business of Sport Hosts:That's Jags that choose Wembley. Okay. That's the only non-league run international game and that shifted over the last couple of years. That's the Jags historically working London, their fan base in London, and for their own business interests, wanting to bring a game to London each year over time. So that's really their model and their decision to take a home game to London, whereas the international games, all of the other international games a league managed and run.

19:34Brett Gosper:Okay, so when you look at a game that's in Spain

19:36Business of Sport Hosts:or you choose another country, who owns the economics of that? The league office. The NFL league office owns the economics of it and that will be there. Therefore, it's centrally redistributed equally back, whether it be profit or loss in its profit, back to the teams over that period.

19:53Brett Gosper:So even for the first time you play somewhere, you'll run them at a profit? Because I would expect you to run them at a loss.

19:59Business of Sport Hosts:They become more profitable over time because it takes you a while to get used to how you actually work that stadium versus what the game would have made in profit in the United States. And the figures are much higher still in the United States because those clubs are very used to working out how they manage their revenues versus games you'll play once a year in a certain market.

20:20Brett Gosper:Can I ask you, what have you learned about American commercial exceptionalism, what they do well that isn't obvious coming from outside of America?

20:32Business of Sport Hosts:I think there are fewer sacred cows. I think that when you go to a game or a Super Bowl or whatever, it's a total immersive entertainment experience. You say the stop-start because you're looking at it from a sports point of view, but you're in a stadium in America. No one thinks it's stop-start. And if you're watching TV, it gives you a chance to do other stuff and so on. So the Americans don't see it as a stop-start. they see it as a full afternoon of entertainment and you've got three hours of it. More, that's kickoff to final whistle. But I think it's just that there's no restrictions.

21:10Business of Sport Hosts:Tradition, what we would call sporting tradition, is less sacred in a way. It's all driven to what's going to surprise, delight and please that audience nonstop. And their interaction, whether it be on screen, in the stadium together is blurred the way they have those infinity screens like we saw Sofai Stadium during World Cup. And so, I mean, you saw the quality of the stadia in America. They're ensuring that your experience in stadia is at least as good as your experience at home on broadcast. And it is incredible.

21:41Brett Gosper:It's the most common thing, isn't it? Well, again, I say, well, we haven't specifically maybe focused on the NFL on the show in a one-on-one conversation. It is the continual point of reference when we're talking about other sports, establishing themselves better commercially, looking at how to engage with fans. But it's far too simplistic to say, oh, look at what they do. You can just cover it. Let's do it again. It doesn't work like that.

22:02Business of Sport Hosts:And it's 100 years of history. It wasn't always as unified and as synchronized and as entertaining. You often hear the expression, NFL, we stand on the shoulders of giants. It's evolved to a very strong position.

22:13Brett Gosper:One of the key things that comes up to where some of the value lies, and we often fall foul of this in how we view things these days, is we think more is better, more is value, all of this. And again, the NFL's scarcity, if we want to call it that, 17-game regular season plus then potential playoffs, that is very few games compared to, again, used football, even rugby and cricket now as a point of reference.

22:40Business of Sport Hosts:And NFL are very conscious of that, and they're very aware that they're not pushing to increase their inventory. They know that that's quality that they have in terms of that scarcity. that scarcity and the specialness of the limited number. I can't see them going beyond 18 regular season games.

22:55Brett Gosper:Have you seen the value of that? Do you see that as a key driver of value of the product? Definitely.

23:01Business of Sport Hosts:I think the NFL definitely sees it that way. And that intense period of a season is one of its high qualities and high value elements.

23:08Brett Gosper:Again, so it's very unique, isn't it? I mean, you said to us actually just before, because the NFL, in essence, owns kind of the American football professional ecosystem. And rather than having a federation that sits atop and governs lots of different leagues, this is a unique sporting institution in the fact that it has so much centralized influence and control over what happens that it can pretty much make sure that the expansion areas are managed properly.

23:32Business of Sport Hosts:That's right. It's totally in control of its own fate, existence and success.

23:37Brett Gosper:I'm so sorry, just for people's context, what does the NFL do total?

23:43Business of Sport Hosts:Okay, well, ballpark sponsorship and broadcast for the league office is probably around the 15 billion. It's publicly known. And so on. And then probably the club's gate and sponsor would add another 10 billion to that. So probably the ecosystem of the NFL is around 25 billion US, I'd say, yeah.

24:01Brett Gosper:I mean, just, you know, for anyone that listens regularly, that's how extraordinary that business is. How does that compare to FIFA?

24:08Business of Sport Hosts:FIFA made probably 13, 14 billion at this cycle, four years. So it's probably... Four years? Four years. Four years cycle.

24:17Brett Gosper:And you're saying 25 billion per year? Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

24:24Business of Sport Hosts:Which is why, as fast as international grows, it will be difficult percentage-wise. Over time, it'll happen, but not what I'm here.

24:32Brett Gosper:Yeah.

24:33Business of Sport Hosts:But in absolute terms, there's a very high growth target set, and we're meeting those targets.

24:38Brett Gosper:But again, it's kind of like you move the games to actually bring something straight to the audience, but really you're still selling the broadcast deals of the domestic, let's call it, US games to international. That's what you want. You want the international audience buying in to that core league because you're still...

24:55Business of Sport Hosts:Correct.

24:55Brett Gosper:It's a marketing arm to be able to bring the teams into the geographies. But really the needle mover, as you said, is for you to then be able to broker a significant broadcast deal in those markets for the regular season of 270-odd games.

25:10Business of Sport Hosts:Correct. Correct. Over time, you want to build a strong enough fan base that are engaged enough that will show up in your broadcast viewing figures and will raise your values of broadcast deals that are done over time in the markets outside of America.

25:26Brett Gosper:Right now, what's the biggest? It's like singular. Is the UK the biggest?

25:30Business of Sport Hosts:Actually not. Big broadcast markets outside of Canada, obviously, for obvious reasons. Germany, Mexico, UK, and then on it goes. Brazil growing. I mean, where we're playing games tends to be where those markets have been prioritized. We're now playing games and have offices in, we're not playing games in Canada, but offices in Canada. Mexico, we're playing games. Brazil, we're playing games. Germany, Spain, France, UK, Australia, and soon other Asian markets.

26:03Brett Gosper:You tell us about the, you mentioned the total revenue, but tell us about what is very unique in some of the way that sponsorships and merchandise, etc. are managed from an NFL perspective. To tee you up, I guess, set it off. It's nothing necessarily on the front of shirt to drive a value the way that other people are used to seeing commercialized sports. And a centrally negotiated and managed Nike partnership for all of KIT. So again, looking at other sports and how they all generate money independently, how the NFL has done it to create that value is slightly different.

26:35Business of Sport Hosts:I think on the sponsorship, what's incredible is how things are sliced up and different territories are created for different brands that give them a space to give them visibility and engagement with their own fan group or new fans. um there are i wish i could remember the the number but i remember we're looking at our games and saying okay there must be some other territories of sponsorship that we can use out of super bowl and i think i can't remember how many it was but it was something like 250 different spaces versus we had about 50 in in our international games and therefore we're leaving money on the table because there were there were lots of other opportunities for sponsors to come in and own a certain element of that experience.

27:17Business of Sport Hosts:And so I think the way the NFL has taken experiences or events and turned them into experiences, the draft, kickoff, Thanksgiving, now Christmas on Netflix and so on, the way the NFL can just turn a schedule of activities into incredibly engaging moments for the fans, sponsorable or marketable is what they're very, very good at.

27:45Brett Gosper:It's kind of back to the scarcity piece on games. But if you're not selling absolutely everything that's potentially available to you, you create more value when the opportunities do arise.

27:55Business of Sport Hosts:That's it.

27:55Brett Gosper:Good feed into that is you mentioned earlier, the value of the athlete in this day and age. We've got an environment now which is so much about the individual as much as it is about the team. you mentioned their appetite to be more and expand more and the opportunities that international games brings them i guess from a commercial perspective from your perspective as a league being able to leverage some of that exposure is hugely valuable to you as much as it is to them

28:22Business of Sport Hosts:it's hugely important for us and in the social media you know we're working with our athletes all of the time giving them materials teaching them how to use social media in the right way and so on because we know whether it be the league's platforms the club platforms or the players platforms, the most powerful of those three elements is the athlete player platforms. They amplify the messaging far more. So that is the best podium for us if we're engaging with fans. That's what fans are interested in more than the other two areas.

28:50Brett Gosper:Do they do it independently?

28:51Business of Sport Hosts:They do it independently with a lot of help from us in terms of content, of when is a good time to go, what are the subjects you can talk about. So they've all got their own personalities, but they get a great deal of support in content and approach from the league itself and from their clubs.

29:12Brett Gosper:You came as chief executive of World Rugby, right? It must have been a fascinating transition from you and the different types of sporting environments and how these organizations work, particularly, as we've said, with the American model at the center of this.

29:25Business of Sport Hosts:Yeah, it was very different. A federation is very different to a league to begin with, so it's hard to compare them. In what way, just for people that may not understand? The federation is very oriented towards participation because a lot of their local federations get funding from governments because of how many people are competing in that or participating in that sport in their country. It's very regulatory. Most of these federations began as legal entities to regulate the game so they don't really think about the fan aspect or the fan engagement aspect. And I think World Rugby transitioned during the period I was there.

29:59Business of Sport Hosts:I'm not saying I was the only one driving it, but very much transitioned from regulation as a priority to inspiration a lot more. It's a much more fragmented sport because you've got different entities managing, whether you've got six nations, you've got leagues, so you can't do everything that you want to do, whereas the NFL is a hermetically sealed business operation, laser-focused on fan growth. And to be fair, in all the meetings, I mean, there's rarely conversations about money. It's all about fans. What can we do to please them? What can we do to engage them? What can we do to bring them in?

30:34Business of Sport Hosts:And people know that that's going to show up as revenue at some point. It's a very different environment. And I said to you before, in many ways, I'd have done a better job, I think, as CEO of World Rugby had I done this job better, because I think the understanding and the sophistication with which they go about fan acquisition and pleasing their fans is second to none. And it's been a great school for me, even at my late age.

30:57Brett Gosper:Every football team in sports speaks about fan engagement. saying they haven't cracked it because they don't know they're fan. Has the NFL cracked fan engagement, that relationship, in a way that football teams haven't?

31:12Business of Sport Hosts:I don't know if even the NFL would say we've cracked it, but they are cracking it. It's an ongoing process. You never feel that you've quite got it. Have you got enough fans in your database? Are you talking to them in the right way? Are they transacting with you? are those fans, where's the bridge between those fans that you're collecting data for and the ones actually watching and viewing who are actually generating 70 to 80 % of your revenue. And so, no, I don't think the NFL's got everything worked out, but they certainly know where they're headed and know what they're looking for. And I think that's probably where they've got to advance on maybe a lot of other entities.

31:49Brett Gosper:Having had the experience that you had outside of the NFL, I've talked about the obsession that we often have in transition and trying to take out the bits. What bits do you think you could lift from seeing how successful this business has been into a sport like rugby, into a sport like football, to bring in some of that value, recognizing that it is a very different environment to how this American system is operating?

32:10Business of Sport Hosts:I just think it's having a fan-first view of everything, that every time you suggest an idea or generate one, it's with the fan in mind. And it's that obsession on making sure, so it's like in a consumer business, being client-centric or customer-centric or consumer-centric or whatever. And I just think that everything we do at the NFL is about what's that going to mean for the fan? How's that going to translate as the fan enjoying that, liking it, wanting to pay more for it, wanting to pay something for it? and being involved with it. It's more the prisms through which you look and then that generates the ideas and the thinking and so on.

32:46Brett Gosper:What's an example in another sport where a fan is not put first for the benefit of a business? Just for people listening, for me, genuinely. Ticket pricing? Yeah, ticket pricing is the thing that comes up a lot, particularly in football. But the flip side of that, which is where the US side is supply and demand. you have a huge demand for a lot of these matches live in attendance. Could you raise the price? Yeah, of course you could. But at the same time, you're likely then to get far more people coming in for a game from, let's say, a tourism perspective than you are from getting the hardcore fans who have been there for 30 years.

33:22Brett Gosper:That is a trade-off that you have to make a decision on.

33:25Business of Sport Hosts:You also have a different sort of fan in America as well, though, too. And I think that's a... What do you mean by that? I think there's a fan in America that wants to be sold to, that wants those opportunities, wants those choices. But I think sometimes the fan in Europe is a little bit more conservative and a little bit more purist. And I'm exaggerating to make a point. This is about the sport. This is about why they're selling me this or why they... So you're dealing with a conservatism to a certain extent in the landscape in Europe that aren't used to the commerciality that perhaps an American fan demands, not just sees, but actually expects.

34:01Business of Sport Hosts:That's a different environment. Yeah.

34:03Brett Gosper:I mean, perfect. Sorry, you asked for an example, I guess. You could say a really good example of that question, where was the fan first the halftime show at the World Cup? Is that for a football fan? Now, football is just built so differently to the concept of maybe halftime shows.

34:17Business of Sport Hosts:Well, I'd love to ask the American audience what they thought of the halftime show. That'd be interesting. Because definitely it rubs up a halftime show as a concept almost in football, ruffles feathers a bit. Generally in sport, we hate change, right?

34:30Brett Gosper:People just don't enjoy change in these ways, particularly pure. I have this argument all the time with the 100, with cricket. Cricket fans will come up to me and go, because we talk about that a lot, oh, I hate the 100 and it's not cricket. It's like, have you been? No, I refuse to go. It's like, well, genuinely, how can you comment?

34:44Business of Sport Hosts:I saw last night on the TV, you had a pretty full oval for a 100 game. Sunday night? On a Sunday night, I'm thinking, wow, that's incredible. So it's doing that. Yeah. They're finding their own register of entertainment and sport and getting that balance right. But for each audience, you've got to get the balance right. If you go too far one way, then you'll lose your audience.

35:03Brett Gosper:But that's what I'm saying. You, in a way, have that hardest job because does the non-US audience automatically buy into all of that because it's from the US?

35:13Business of Sport Hosts:Yes, is the answer. We're given a license that's broader than the traditional European sports to do something which is not as traditional. So in many ways, this is a bit of an experiment area for the NFL as well in what they can do and what they can put on in other markets. but there's a license to do as you do in America here and people come for that. If you turned up to an NFL game in London or Paris and it wasn't like an NFL game in nature like the US, you'd feel, I've missed out. This is not what I came for. I'm being shortchanged. Yeah, but at the same time, we try and also create some local personality around what we do and acknowledge some things which link us and make us more culturally relevant in that market.

35:54Brett Gosper:It pains me to say it as a Chelsea fan, but the Tottenham Stadium is incredible for lots of different reasons. But the NFL element planning for the hosting of games was such a huge part of what this stadium offers. Do you think tying in and integrating the opportunities to host these games starts to influence infrastructure plays across Europe? So Spurs now, right? They have a fantastic NFL suitable ready stadium.

36:21Business of Sport Hosts:It's an NFL stadium. It is the only NFL stadium purpose-built in Europe.

36:26Brett Gosper:Therefore, I'm looking at the value of Spurs Total Collective. That's significantly gone up because I am capable of hosting. I'm now associated with the biggest sporting league in the world.

36:38Business of Sport Hosts:And I think that's why it's a good partnership with Tottenham. They get something out of it. We get something out of it. And it's a very, very strong partnership. And it's a fabulous stadium for us to perform our games in, yeah.

36:49Brett Gosper:And across Europe.

36:51Business of Sport Hosts:Well, you have to, each city, you have to go to where you feel the experience is going to be best for our consumers.

36:58Brett Gosper:Have you ever walked up to one and thought, oh, no.

37:01Business of Sport Hosts:We've walked up to a lot of those. Well, we've usually not chosen them, though, for that reason. But we're very careful. We have a football operations group that go in and work out viability. We work out the attractiveness of playing in that stadium. We also work out what's a good relationship to have with the people who occupy. So Real Madrid's probably the biggest club in football worldwide in terms of its fan base. Did you play at the Bernabeu? We played at the Bernabeu. So we played at the Bernabeu for the first time last year. We'll play again this year. We play in the Bayern Munich Stadium.

37:32Business of Sport Hosts:It was the first time a non-football event was held. It had to be voted by the Munich Parliament. So these have got to be steady because we do quite a bit of work on them to make sure the changing rooms are big enough because you've got... What needs to change? Mainly changing rooms. You've got 53. How do you change a changing room? The non-playing elements of the touring party don't fit into a normal football dressing room, let alone the players themselves. So you've normally got to re-plumb, knock down a few walls, put in more showers. Are you serious? Yeah.

38:04Brett Gosper:You've got to re-plumb for a game. You re-plumb to put more showers in.

38:08Business of Sport Hosts:But you do that. You hope you come back the next year and you amortize that over a number of years. And they're okay with you doing that? Not at first, but they generally come. Do you ask? Yeah, we do ask. We're very polite. Can you imagine a football team coming back in and going, I don't know, exactly. Where are some showers? We see it as helping them improve their infrastructure. Mel, the kit man.

38:27Brett Gosper:I was here for 20 years and the NFL came. That's right. Well, no, the good thing about it is it's only expanding it. It's not taking anything away from the culture. That's extraordinary.

38:36Business of Sport Hosts:And also, it's a little bit of a promise we'll be back. And anything else? The change rooms get bigger, anything else? Change rooms get bigger. You've usually got to extend the field a few metres at each end. usually playing surfaces are all a big discussion point and so on.

38:50Brett Gosper:Which was really, sorry, I mean, I guess Paulie asked, but that was the point of part of the previous question of now when you have big new infrastructure builds, a core part of the business plans of major sporting powers in Europe, these stadiums will start to incorporate this in the hope of being able to host these.

39:09Business of Sport Hosts:Totally, because it gives them the option. And you also need a certain sized spectator bowl because you want to pass the break even and start to make it... What's the pass the break even? You probably need 60 ,000 plus. 60 ,000? Yeah, you probably need that sort of audience. So that's probably the kind of... We've done it in less, but generally you want to be around the 60. Also for the fan experience, you want to be in a stadium as well.

39:32Brett Gosper:What stadium have you never done it in that you would love to do it in?

39:38Business of Sport Hosts:The MCG, but it's going to happen.

39:41Brett Gosper:Yeah, that'll be incredible.

39:43Business of Sport Hosts:The MCG is going to happen in September. so that must be a special moment for you well I'm from Melbourne so it actually is quite a special moment but it's also again quite in that town it's the heartbeat of the city and it's just a big you won't need to expand the pitch much

39:59Brett Gosper:on there will you that's a nice thing

40:00Business of Sport Hosts:it's a different footprint completely different footprint but they play rugby tests and FIFA you know qualifications there and stuff so it'll be brilliant but that'll be that would have been my wish had it not already been granted but it hasn't happened And so that's the one.

40:14Brett Gosper:But suddenly now you can go, okay, Italy, that could be a challenge now just because the infrastructure in Italy famously has been challenging. Well, they're renovating some stadia in Milan and all of that.

40:25Business of Sport Hosts:So that's all possible in the future. Exactly.

40:27Brett Gosper:But you can tie that in now. As you look at this, be ambitious with some of those stadia going.

40:32Business of Sport Hosts:Well, Real Madrid, they were in renovation when they contacted us about, we'd like to make this NFL fit. So they were, although things needed to be done after they finished that, they were kind of swimming in the right direction when they did their renovations. It's an incredible stadium, the Bernabeu. Oh, the new one. It looks like someone landed a spaceship in the middle of, right in the middle of Madrid.

40:54Brett Gosper:Have you seen, I was thinking then just about rugby stadiums and experience. Have you seen, is it too simple to say that just the nature of the sports, maybe, you know, being like high contact, high intensity, heavy. Have you seen a crossover of fan bases being a slightly easier one for you to capture? Have those fans really keen to engage with the NFL having some form of rugby. Yeah, look, I mean, we often get that comparison

41:16Business of Sport Hosts:because you don't have that in Germany, for example. You've just got football, and then there's, and actually probably the top three, handball, but probably NFL's probably the next broadcast view. It's in the top three in that market, which is not in many other markets outside of the US other than Canada, Mexico perhaps. And people ask the question about France, for example. They say, but aren't you going to find it hard to get it because rugby's so big there? We say, well, yeah, but it's big in England too. It's not a problem in England. So I don't, there's no, there's no, in a way, it's not, if there's rugby, you're more likely to do well.

41:49Business of Sport Hosts:If there's not rugby, I don't think there's a real difference. I tend to think it helps because I think rugby, people who are into rugby are interested and curious. They may not be a major fan, but they're willing to look because you can't not look at someone tackling and being tackled. If you like rugby, so, but maybe it scratches the itch already that you don't need American football to scratch. But it's a hard one. We don't have data on that. But I think that the barriers aren't there either way, whether there is or isn't rugby.

42:16Brett Gosper:Did you come in as a fan of the sports when you started working? Or was this quite a casual fan?

42:21Business of Sport Hosts:Yeah, I would have said I was a casual fan. I had a team. I watched it a bit. But I was that ensconced in rugby that didn't have that much room for other sports in winter anyway, even football to a certain extent.

42:34Brett Gosper:And have you found yourself from a professional now going like, wow.

42:38Business of Sport Hosts:And I will always be an avid. If I left the NFL this week, I'd continue to be an avid fan of NFL. Who do you support? In NFL.

42:44Brett Gosper:Can't say.

42:45Business of Sport Hosts:No, he actually can. I think unless you're the commissioner, he can't. Yeah, yeah. But everyone in the mix has a – I'm actually, unfortunately, a Jets, a New York Jets supporter. I say unfortunately because they haven't won a lot recently. Who owns the Jets? Woody Johnson owns the Jets. Johnson & Johnson. Yeah. So he was an ambassador, US ambassador to the UK for a period and it's the Johnson family that own the Jets. But I was a rugby player and we toured America and I was playing with the Racing in Paris and we toured America and they did a big article in the New York Times on the Racing coming to New York and they said, they're like the Jets.

43:25Business of Sport Hosts:Don't know why, but I said, I'm not going to support the Jets.

43:30Brett Gosper:The ownership structure around it, I don't know how much you get exposed to it.

43:34Business of Sport Hosts:You expose a lot to it.

43:35Brett Gosper:A fascinating side of it, right? Especially in Monsport where, for example, private equity was only allowed to invest in it for the first time a few years ago. You've got all 32 owners are US owners. Traditionally, it's been, as you said, like families that have had these organizations. What's strong about that?

43:55Business of Sport Hosts:Stability, longevity of decision-making and that shared revenue also means we're all in the same bath and we're going to row in the... It's a bad analogy. I'm rowing in the bar. In some extended change rooms. What's a room in this bar? But they make their decisions, as you say, in that group. They come together in committees about four times a year, twice a year, all 32 in the same room and you go and you present in front of that audience and it's quite nerve-wracking. Yeah. In front of all of them. There's not a room like it. So each club in those meetings bring in three people, usually two owners, one CEO or whatever.

44:39Business of Sport Hosts:But when you present to that group, and I've presented over the years to a lot of different groups, you do have your heart in your throat because it's an impressive bunch of very successful people. How do you prepare for that? Just with anxiety and trepidation and whatever. But you prepare is the point. You prepare and you make sure, and everyone does. The league office is managing those meetings and they're running the show and who's presenting what and what are we selling and what are we telling. And it's quite a production.

45:08Brett Gosper:Of all the presentations, the speeches, all of that that you've had to do as a top executive, what was the one that you genuinely felt the most?

45:14Business of Sport Hosts:Oh, the worst I had to do was to sell a leasing agreement that the Jags had done with Wembley. And I kept saying, I'm not a leasing guy. No, no, you're the man. You're going to go in and tell them exactly what this leasing agreement was all about. Because all of the leasing agreements of all the clubs had to pass through the league office and so on. And so that was one that I prepared every inch that anyone was going to ask me any questions about the leasing agreement between the Jags and Wembley. I was going to. But no one asked the question, unfortunately.

45:42Brett Gosper:Do you think opening up to private equity is good for the NFL?

45:50Business of Sport Hosts:It must be because they voted for it. And that's what the collective wanted. And that's what they voted for because these things are voted upon. You've got a timeline, which is very different. and suddenly you've got a six or seven year timeline rather than a generational timeline for a family and so on. But these are small percentages of the ownership. Ensuring that basically you could never lose any of the control. Exactly, control and management is retained and the influence retained.

46:16Brett Gosper:Well, we have a$20 billion team in 10 years time.

46:21Business of Sport Hosts:Very possible. Yeah, I just thought that was possible. But again, I'm not a financial expert.

46:24Brett Gosper:If you go to the revenue, right? Again, how do you value these entities in the first place? you highlighted the opportunities that continue to exist, both in a domestic market and being lazy, saying, oh, it's saturated domestically. It's not at all. You're making far more, maybe from a fandom, but not commercially. Not commercially. Then that price can keep going up. Because, hey, at the moment, sports teams on the whole, whether rightly or wrongly, and a lot of people have opinions on this, are generally valued on multiples of revenue. Sure. So, I mean, the Cowboys, I think the Cowboys, they generate the most of any sports team just ahead of Real Madrid.

46:56Brett Gosper:Revenue-wise. Revenue-wise. but it's interesting in that side. I mean, I always think you may agree on sport. It's fascinating because you have these massive global brands, but as revenue businesses, they're actually nowhere near the size of their brand. I mean, the Cowboys, they're just over a billion last year. Real Madrid, the same. But you think about the brand, the size, the weight of the brand. It seems like it's much more influential. It's incredible. Scarcity value has to keep coming back into it. Now you get a chance to own part of an NFL franchise.

47:22Business of Sport Hosts:That's part of the attraction.

47:24Brett Gosper:Quick fire? Yeah, go for it. Yeah, go for it. What was the single best experience you've had in the stadium?

47:30Business of Sport Hosts:I think the opening and closing, you know, I'm going back in time here, opening and closing ceremony of the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics. Wow. There you go. Why? Just because it was creative directed by Steven Spielberg for a start, so you know it's going to be good. But it was just the most incredibly creative and entertaining opening and closing of Olympic Games I've seen. I've seen quite a few of those.

47:53Brett Gosper:Sporting?

47:53Business of Sport Hosts:I think that I think I'm going to entertainment more than sporting here, but London, London opening ceremony was fabulous to the London Olympic ceremony in 2012 was extraordinary.

48:03Brett Gosper:Yeah, it was. Yeah. So you're taking NFL, you're talking about NFL, someone in Europe that's never seen it before, that doesn't know what it is. If you're trying to, like, say the reason why someone should watch it or be engaged with it, what would you say?

48:16Business of Sport Hosts:I think the athletes mainly. I don't think there are better athletes in the world, conditioned, speed, solidity. Every aspect of athleticism you're going to see in a game of American football that you might not see in other sports is the first thing I'd say. I'd also say it is an acquired taste and you have to understand a certain amount. So if you're not allowing yourself to understand the mere basic of it, you're never going to get fully into it. But just allow yourself to get into that first step. You've got four attempts to get 10 meters. It's yards in America. But, yeah, so I wouldn't lead with a halftime show because I think that's the cherry on a cake.

49:03Brett Gosper:Did the NFL, with expansion in mind, put any additional budget or whatever to creating a content series, like YouTube videos, et cetera, around explaining the NFL because the two go hand and hand. We do all of that.

49:14Business of Sport Hosts:We have, whether it be on the big screen in those games that are played internationally, whether it be on YouTube, there are all sorts of, not titled The Dubbies Guide, but The Beginners to Guide or whatever, to getting into American football. We do a lot of that and it's important. And flag football is going to help that a lot too because that's going to become far more ubiquitous and that will help people just see, oh, I see it every time they throw it and they gain yards, they get another chance to do that, so on, et cetera. And it's very simple in that sense. Once you get past that gate, everything else becomes interesting learning.

49:45Business of Sport Hosts:Who would do better, an American football player playing rugby or a rugby player playing American football? Probably the American footballer playing rugby is my view because we've seen a lot of rugby players try to break into the NFL and have not succeeded in doing that. It's very difficult. It's very technical. doesn't look at maybe to the outside of it. No, it doesn't. Lewis Reed, Samet, Christian Wade, lots of these players who are magnificent athletes. And they did well, but they didn't break into it at the level that they did with rugby. You don't see it happening the other way so much because the money's too big on the next time.

50:25Business of Sport Hosts:Which schmuck's leaving there. The river flows more to... That's your daily salary? Yearly. Oh, my God. Your change room's so small. change room you can see so many American athletes whether it be wide receivers running backs offensive linemen whatever they all find their spot in rugby in a significant way I think

50:55Brett Gosper:so do you think those core skills a Louis Riesamit let's say for the technical physically incredible speed obviously has to have the strength to play certain positions but if you're looking at that technicality piece it's it's very hard you never say impossible it's very hard to pick up that technicality if you haven't had exactly if you haven't grown up with it exactly these kids are baked through high school through college and

51:21Business of Sport Hosts:then into the nfl and just turn up and we've got an international player pathway where we're trying to create these athletes and some of them do make it through they tend to be the less technical positions and they do breakthrough and they spike interest in the countries where those people come from and so on, which is why we do it. And we have an academy in the UK for European young athletes to become NFL players, which over time, some of them will. But generally, it's not an easy task for that transfer to happen. And as a former rugby player and as a guy out of the rugby community, I thought it would be a much easier thing of, he's good, he'll do well there.

51:52Business of Sport Hosts:It's not as easy as that.

51:54Brett Gosper:Is having more international players come into the NFL a metric of success? Yes.

51:59Business of Sport Hosts:Yes, for us, it is. We're trying to create more international, like the Premier League like the NBA like it breeds interest in those markets those players come from it's but you've got to play it Jordan Malata who's with the Eagles won the Super Bowl a couple of years ago he's the biggest star in Australia well not biggest but he's one of the biggest stars in Australian sport everywhere he goes we were with him in Australia a little while back signing autographs people coming to him in the street because he's huge as well he can't miss him but the effect he's had on fandom in Australia has been phenomenal.

52:32Business of Sport Hosts:So yes, we're looking for those international athletes. And not just to spike interest in those countries, but because the NFL wants the best athletes in the world to be at the NFL. And so whether they come from the African region, the European region, Asia, whatever, we're on the lookout for those top athletes. Five years time, what are going to be the top three countries for the NFL outside of the US and Canada? Germany for sure. Germany is on a huge growth spurt. We have incredible partners, media partners. Our office there is high performing, but that market is quite obsessive about American football.

53:09Business of Sport Hosts:I think the UK will be the other market. And I think in European terms, probably France. Could be France or Spain, but I think France will embrace American football a lot more. They love their NBA. They love American sports. I think the rugby will probably on balance help them get into American football to look at it and be interested by it and so on. So I think that'll be the third market. It tends to help when those markets are on time zones. Asia's more challenging for us because it's on a far more challenging time zone to watch American sport from American broadcast. The day will come, I think, when international is significant enough that we can move some of those windows in America to more favourable viewing times for other markets.

53:58Business of Sport Hosts:That'll be the sign that international is really, really growing in terms of its interest in revenue.

54:03Brett Gosper:But as you said, for now, I mean, the power of just having the NFL means people will hopefully turn up, whether you put it on at 10.30am or 8pm. Certainly in Australia, that's the case. Well, to be honest, Australia, you know, lives on such strange time zones for most of their sport anyway, that they're used to it, aren't they? Brett, I've absolutely loved it. thank you so much for giving us some of that insight into this world. It is amazing to actually have a proper chat about this rather than just referencing it all the time. So thank you for coming in.

54:29Business of Sport Hosts:Thanks for having me. Thank you.

54:33Brett Gosper:Thank you so much to Brett for joining us. It was the perfect entry point into a sport we talk around and reference almost on a weekly basis, but never fully dived into. The business model is just insane. The value creation, the fan experience, the execution, the elite products, but very much a product of a unique sports environment. there are things to take from this and of course elements that are just not replicable but as the nfl continues to commit fully to its geographic expansion strategy i think the big questions will lie around maintaining what has been built as new elements are introduced we'll do more of these in the coming months and i hope you enjoyed the show now if you want to see more from today's show you can do so by going to youtube or any of our other social channels across instagram tiktok and now of course sub stack there are more snippets to share and bite-sized chunks to consume and whilst you're there, please do like, subscribe and follow the show.

55:20Brett Gosper:As you'll hear from your other favourite pods, it makes a huge difference when bringing you the best guests and conversations from around the world of sport, which is of course our endless aim. Thank you again for tuning in and we'll see you next week. The business of sport is supported by Airwallex, the intelligent financial platform used by more than 200 ,000 modern businesses, from SaaS and marketplaces to some of the most ambitious organisations in sport, including McLaren Racing, Arsenal and the San Francisco giants. The off-pitch problem is simple. Your supporters, sponsors and partners are everywhere, but the money that connects them is still stuck in slow expensive systems, wire transfers that take days, fees that quietly eat into revenue and clunky processes that make simple things feel hard.

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