Charlotte O’Neill, Manchester City Women Managing Director, ‘Why Is Women’s Football Expected To Be Profitable When Men’s Football Isn’t!?’

27:54Do you fear there's too much of a focus on creating a product similar to men's football when actually so much of this has value and independence and therefore doesn't need to be set up in the same way. Yeah, so I think that's where women's football has really changed and women's sport. I was a Super League netball player and what's amazing about that league is it's completely different. There is only one product and that's the women's version at the moment. So it was able to be completely independent. I think in women's sport that have a men's version, if you think of like, you know, football, rugby, cricket, I think there was the early days was very much about like aligning ourselves to the men's game and showing, you know, that gives you like credibility and that, you know, quality standard.

28:40And so, for example, on our social media channels, we shared a channel with the men's and it was very much, we are one club. We are, you know, we're just as valuable our men's team and our women's team really care and what we've realized now is because we have new fans and we have fans that are only interested in women that we need to separate them out so we launched our own socials last summer i think what we're seeing now is we need to step alongside and acknowledge that we are a different brand some of our fans like i said 50 want both and will follow both and really invested in both but there is also a whole world of people who are interested in the women's team and therefore we will have a slightly different brand and a different product and our stadium experience will be different and that's okay.

29:26Like I said, it's about having the best of both worlds, right? Being Man City but having a women's first product. It's more than okay, isn't it? It's great. I mean, I've been to Chelsea Women at Stamford Bridge when they host some of the games there and it's an event in a way that men's football isn't. It's not quite often intense tribalism in the same way. it's family oriented it's concessions there was a DJ at half time people will be creasing and they're saying oh you know it's not the purity of football but this isn't necessarily the purity of the football they're thinking of this is a brand new product for a different audience in a lot of cases and maybe I'm wrong I don't feel that's embraced enough in a lot of how people really want to develop this is that fair?

30:06No I think it's I think it's fair I can only talk for our club and I think we absolutely lean into that if you think that Joy is a baby products brand you know and having been able to bring prams into the stadium and have family friendly areas and being a place where families are welcome is really important to us because that's leading in like you say to that to that piece around maybe less tribal and less dutiful fandom where you know I think sometimes men's sport is almost like you have to go every week and if you don't go every week you're not a real fan whereas actually women's football and women's sport is more of an occasion.

30:42It's a big event. You might go as, it's easier to go as a group where it's so hard to get, you know, men's Premier League tickets. When can you get more than two tickets for you and a friend? So I think it's leaning into this more like event experience area. So we do, we have fan insights after every game and we see, you know, what do people love? What are they not like? What's, where are the pain points and rating their experiences? And the women's football scores from our fans are like off the charts. What do people not like? What do people not like? Queuing for food. I mean, it's the age old problem in football where you have 15 minutes to serve the whole stadium.

31:19And I think that's, you know, that is something that maybe if you think if you're someone who hasn't been to a football match before and you're comparing it with going to a concert or going to the theatre or I don't know, something different. When you come and then you go, oh, my God, all these people want to eat at the same time in 15 minutes. there are areas that we're working on okay well how do we serve people quicker and what food products are going to be better That's also what's hard which is like this sounds like I don't think we've ever talked about it the sophistication of food products in actual football and sports events has increased in terms of expectations before it was like 20 years ago, 10 years ago when we used to it was like hot dog pie, shit and we're like yeah great Now you go and it's like sushi and Halloumi fries is big for us I mean like there we go and I'm like wow this is like this is posh go and check fulham out these days can i ask you we mentioned the salaries earlier being a big part of it i had alexis ohanean on from angel angel city yeah and he was like we really were aware that they're paid too little uh and we encourage them to be their own businesses we encourage them to create content and to really optimize their partnership opportunities do you and how do you think about encouraging your players to be businesses in themselves?

32:35Yeah. So we, with our, most of our big partners also then take ambassador packages that we, so we almost act as like the agent, I suppose, between the player and the, and the partner. So Alex Greenwood, for example, is ambassador for Snugs and Revolut. She's our captain. We have other partners, other players that do different, different partnerships. So Viv Media Mar does Rex Owner, for example. So we are active in helping them market themselves and, and bringing in business to them, which I think is really helpful. And then it's very much about understanding what they're interested in, what they like to do, what they're not, you know, what they don't like, what areas are interested in, like some are really interested in animals and animal welfare and others are interested in different areas.

33:19So we try and find out more about the players and then help, I suppose, guide them into commercial spaces that might be helpful for them. Has that shaped your media strategy? Maybe their presence and the prominence of the fan base that you've seen more geared towards the women's team? developing those content channels that incorporate the talent where they may be more relatable, maybe slightly bigger. I think we've seen in creating the new social channels, obviously we started with zero in terms of followers. We started from scratch. We've seen our engagement figures are super high, like they are incredible.

33:53And that's because having our own channel allows us to give more of our players to the fan base. What we were finding when we shared on the men's channel is like, you know, we are, I suppose, a smaller aspect of that, you know, the amount of content that's coming out around our men's team is not easy for us to tell the stories of our athletes and for our fans to get to know them. So on our channels, very much, it's about our players showing more of themselves. They want the fans in on the journey. They want to share more of themselves. And so I think that's, yeah, absolutely part of our strategy.

34:25And we have, we know as well that women's football fans follow players, not necessarily teams. There are some people that will come to our games, like someone I bumped into the other day at a board meeting for a different organisation. She said she's a United women's season ticket holder, but she came to watch Man City play Barcelona in the Champions League women's. When does that happen in the men's game? She said, I came just because I love women's football and I thought it'd be a great game. So actually building up, want to build the connection between players and fans as well. and Viv Miedemar who transferred from Arsenal to City, she brought loads of fans with her which again just would not happen in the men's game.

35:04If that experiential is therefore so important in those events, the percentages of your revenues are so different to again a men's game where media drives so much of it. Does the elevation of your matchday experience change? Do you try and do more around capturing the attention of your audience for a longer period of time, knowing that if you are really successful at that, your numbers can significantly increase in an impactful way yeah absolutely so we do like family fan zones we have something called autograph alley which is where select fans get to have autographs in sort of like a managed way that's safe for the players the teams do their on pitch you know the team talk post-final whistle was always done on the pitch that's the thing in women's football so i think yeah we're absolutely invested in that in that piece because we know that like i said there's not necessarily that tribal thing of coming back week after week so we are competing against concerts theater other major events other sports like we have we have a category of our fan base which are like major eventers people that go oh that's on let's go as a family so we need to make sure that when they come have an incredible time and then want to come back i think about this a lot because it's like you know we see all the different formats of football your baller leagues your king's league and then you see paddle being invested and you see different forms of golf you see darts that's worrying because there is a consumer wallet which is finite and those dollars are distributed across now more and more and they will get thinner and thinner across those distributions or concentrated into fewer and fewer and so actually your consumer attention is is massively fragmented and there will be some big winners and some big losers and my question is where are the big winners and the big losers my money is on cinema for big losers no one wants to go to the cinema anymore unless it's james bond or Barbie, really.

36:45Mega hits, otherwise. And then where's the winner? Like, hmm, hard. Football will always be, I think, up there. The challenge, well, I guess maybe not the challenge, because there is a really important female aspect of this, providing something for an underserved part of sport, I'd say. Can you put yourself in a position where, if you're looking at that, you're going, well, the best represented, the best invested, the best quality female product is the football. therefore that's grabbing my attention over all of the other stuff. I think so because I played every sport as a kid. I was in the netball team, the athletics team, the tennis team.

37:20There wasn't a football team. If there was, the same girls that were in each of the other teams would be in the football team. And I look at my daughter now who's four and it's almost expected that she's going to play football. Not just because my partner played football and he was determined that she's going to be like a lioness or something. But it's like I think just in that short time, the world has changed. There is a Lioness line in London. It's just mind-blowing. But for me, it's like women have not been able to play football. They were banned from playing football. We are playing catch.

37:52We've had a professional league for 11 years and look already what we've achieved. So to me, it's inevitable. Football is such an amazing sport. It's so accessible. You just need your boots or your trainers. It's not prohibitively expensive to get involved in. There are facilities everywhere. So I just think it's a no-brainer that women's football is going to be successful. Because there are all these girls that have played all these other sports. They've not been able to play football, and now they can. And we've seen these incredible role models and aspirational figures that look like them and are like them.

38:23It's such a diverse sport that, to me, it's obvious. When you were growing up, who did you idolise? Were you a football fan? Yeah, I was a football fan. And you idolised, I'd imagine, a male. Stefan Freund and Teddy Sherinham and all those, yeah, Darren Anderson. Male players. Male players, yeah, absolutely. now are you seeing people if asked children if asked i don't know if you you know ever do this but are you seeing the answers to those questions being vivian yeah absolutely and we and i ask my kids i mean obviously they've been indoctrinated and they get it every day but if i ask my kids like who's your favorite player then they will say either they'll either say men's player or women's player they want to qualify the question who am i asking about or they will say i like Harland and Barney Shaw or Harland and Alex Greenwood or Phil, Phil Foden and you know assorted women's player, Mary Fowler so that's, and that is so different you know and the fact that we know the names, like members of the public know the names of women's footballers I mean you think about 10-15 years ago just you would never have thought that Have you seen the new Restors show they've released which is really interesting, the Restors Football is now done a the rest of football daily brightness so Rachel Daly and Millie Bright so two big female players literally went straight to number one and is doing amazing two players with real personality yeah I think relatable to a huge number of people and they bring humour and comedy to it it was a great listen you're listening to engaging people playing top level sport and I think I don't know if you've seen that clip from Soccer AM that's sort of going around the one about women's it was like obviously Soccer AM what was it like early 2000s And that was a show that I watched every weekend.

40:05And it was like the coolest thing ever. And they did this clip. It was like a bit of a sketch about women's football. It was like watching paint dry. And that clip has aged so badly, but actually it wasn't that long ago. And I think that gives me real hope that women's football is on this huge trajectory. And like you said, people aren't looking at them and going, oh, they're women's footballers. They are just like top athletes with something to say and a bit of personality. For women's football to achieve the success that you think is inevitable, how important is media rights? How important is that significantly changing to the inevitable success?

40:42Yeah, I mean, that has the ability to really kick us on. And so that's why we need to make sure of the next cycle we have an amazing product. Do you think that's the core bottleneck? I think that's where significant growth is. I think the commercial partnerships is coming and has been incredible, the growth. but I think the big accelerator will be the next broadcast deal. Who controls the broadcast deal? So the league obviously put that out to tender and a part of the league executive obviously go out and negotiate that deal. So then Amazon and Netflix and Hulu and we'll fight for it, is that it?

41:17Well, that's a modern take on it. Yeah, so I think that thing will be interesting to see in the next four years or so in the lead up to the next round who are going to be the players. And you need that competitive tension, right, to drive the price up. A fragmentation is quite feared in men's football because generally they'll probably, those packages be sold for less than the mega money. In women's football, it actually could present an opportunity. You've got more buyers, you can sell more packages to more people and give everyone a little bit of the pie. So we've got like Sky and BBC, have been incredible supporters of women's football, have significantly upped their investment, taking more games better quality broadcast but we've also got YouTube for remaining games and YouTube's I think an area of with real potential as well completely massive I mean this is a huge talking point isn't it the amount of men's football Premier League football consumed on YouTube at the moment because it's how people are consuming and they're already on YouTube so how can Sky compete with Netflix or Amazon when it comes to buying the right season I mean the new Premier League deal is 6.9 billion you know how much of Amazon's market cap that is Yeah, but they know it.

42:23They're not going to spend their money in ways that they don't think is worth that. Until they do want that. And then that day, they're done. I think they look at different properties. They still get a piece of the Premier League part and they fragment it and they can get X number of games and still have a say at the table. I don't think they need to buy it. This is why I meant the fragmentation of rights is quite an interesting one for women's football. That's why it's sort of a stepping away from the FA and becoming our own league and the clubs being the shareholders allows us to do things a little bit differently.

42:51The quality of the product is so important, you know, and that's Sky and BBC have committed amazing resources. And I think the product's excellent now. Can I ask you, the World Cup is going to the US in... Next year. Next year. Men's World Cup. Sure. But it will still bring football to the US that the US maybe might not have now to US households, to US men and women. Does that impact women's football more broadly, do you think? I think, I mean, for me, it's like that, the old cliche, rising tide raises all boats. So I think if there's more, you know, the US is obviously an amazing market. We have a team, New York City, they're a men's team.

43:26So I think it's super exciting what can happen in the US. But we still anchor back to the heritage of the English League and the Champions League and all of those points too. But it's a hard balance between the two, isn't it? I mean, actually, look at the NWSL. I think their new broadcast deal, they did a 250-ish million deal for four years for their broadcast. So, you know, that's something for you to strive towards. Absolutely. Why are they able to do that? How can we get there? Do you think, and this is a really important one for me, do you think the structure of competition is a challenge right now for us?

44:01Because elite competition, the most exciting sport, is built on just that competition. You want competitive teams from top to bottom. And again, you look at it at the moment, you have a very dominant set of top teams in WSL and you have teams that sit right lower down. Yeah, so I think part of it, the top teams, I suppose, are the ones that actually can't change what they're doing. They're the early adopters, those that have invested early, really believe in it and going after it. I think there are other clubs like London City Lionesses who are part of a multi-club model, Michelle Kang's group.

44:35They're coming, they are looking like they could get promoted from the championship. I'm sure they will be serious operators. We've got Newcastle investing significantly in the championship hoping to come up. So I think Birmingham City the same. So I think you're right. We need more, better top quality teams. So that's what we're doing as a league, as shareholder clubs, is looking at, okay, how do we raise those minimum standards to ensure the league is more competitive? It is getting more competitive. You don't see 8-0. I don't think we're seeing any 8-0 type results this season. It's getting more competitive, but it needs to be more competitive.

45:09You're right. And the competition format is a hot topic at the moment. is like how do you make sure that the product in four to five years time when the next broadcast round is coming is stronger than it is today. How often are the broadcast renegotiations? I mean, it depends on the deal. I think this deal is like five years, I think. I mean, that seems extraordinarily long term. Like a lot, if you look at women's football being professional for 11 years, a five-year turnaround cycle feels extraordinarily long. But then I suppose it then gives you the assurance that you've got that income, I suppose.

45:39So it's... Would you rather shorter or longer? I mean it depends how long you've got to then make change to drive the product but then from a commercial partnership point of view it's great to have we can sell longer deals because we've got the stability to know that we've got x amount of games on BBC and x amount of games on Sky so having that free to air piece is also really important. Do you twitch at the concept of closed league franchise system in the same way that you we do in men's sport outside of the US in football? So I came from netball. So when I came from netball, I was a netballer.

46:11So all I have known in Super League is closed league. There are benefits. So there are benefits around knowing that your investment is protected and that you actually, if you invest in a team and a franchise and you've got, you've then got the time to improve it and create a fantastic setup, team etc you can you can bet longer term because you know that the money you're investing is going to come to fruition ultimately and you're not going to have the risk of getting relegated I think obviously the the public awareness of the Super League in comparison to the championship means the drop-off is significant so I know there are teams that would like to invest more but the challenge is if you get relegated it's so difficult so it's I think Closed League gives you comfort that we're going to invest and that asset is protected until you can gradually improve your product or improve your team.

47:06But what it then also gives you is the reverse, which is that psychological safety that kind of doesn't matter because we can take our foot off the gas and actually we're not going to get relegated anyway because we're safe till the next time the league's relicensed in three seasons' time. So there are pros and cons to both. It also goes hand in hand with your appetite and ability to accept independent investment, right? Because if that independent investment comes in, And it kind of negates that we'll leave it on the side because they will be investing for a very specific reason. Exactly. But closing that system and that system of opportunity is so important to what football is in this country and in Europe.

47:40And the jeopardy at the bottom of the league, which I think is so important. If you close a league, you're losing so many games that have real consequence. So I think if you close a league, you obviously don't get those relegation battles. And you don't get those things in the last game of the season where this team's trying to win it. and they're playing the other team who are just trying to survive. So I think that there is a beauty to that jeopardy at the bottom of a league at the end of a season that you'd probably lose. And that's why I think the purist in me says you've got to have open leagues where there's something on the line.

48:11Because I think that then ultimately impacts sporting integrity at the top as well. But then we do need to bridge that gap, don't we? Because without a more accessible pathway for clubs to actually get promoted and compete in the top level, to be able to afford it, that's again where a lot of the frustration comes from the people we've talked to before, is like we actually we can't get promoted we can't afford to get promoted as long as that exists there's always going to be a real challenge to overcome yeah but i do think to your point about outside investment i think there are teams you talked about that are you know loss making men's teams with a women's team i think there will be outside investors that will come and buy those teams that's what i see happening you know who will come by that team and say let's take the brand and the community of fans that you've built and let's come and invest in like a licensing agreement absolutely that's what will happen you know i think that's what will happen is there are clubs like city arsenal chelsea united who i think that's unlikely because actually they do genuinely care about women's football and have been you know the pioneers and invest in and they will prioritize especially city football group because we are we are a group and that is this is a model that we follow with all the other clubs as well but i think those clubs where it is really difficult or where you're having to choose between one or the other, I think the outside investment is a great solution.

49:25Talking about all of this, what area do you look at and you really think, this is where we're going to win, this is where you've got the real opportunity from a business perspective? Yeah. Is it commercial or do you still think broadcast will dominate? No, I think commercial, I think the women's only deals, that women's only commercial partnerships I think is you're bringing like the power of football to a whole new area of brands who probably thought they would never invest in football. And I think that's like an amazing opportunity to take a sport that is so global, you know, hair, makeup, beauty, travel, you know, partners that probably didn't ever see themselves in the women's space and able to combine both, I think it's really powerful.

50:06Yeah, you go first. We've talked about a lot. Is there anything in all of this, is there any of the narrative around women's football that really frustrates you? Oh, that's a good question. I think one that frustrates me is this like assumption that women's football has to be sustainable from day dot that really drives me mad because now we are in a new era I see us as a startup business with huge growth potential yet sometimes there's a narrative of oh yeah but women's football needs to be able to stand to their own two feet well like show show me a successful business that didn't make losses in the first few years or whatever you know I think that's the bit that drives me mad.

50:44I see myself as an MD of a startup that's got huge growth potential that is making a lot of people happy with great partners. And we are on a path to profitability, but we need to be treated like a serious business and a startup business that needs investment because we're not going to bring the returns unless we're able to deliver a great product. So that's the bit that probably frustrates me. So I'm going to give you a blank check of 100 million yeah and who am i buying 100 top players what move would you make to change the structure of women's football i think i would invest in obviously i would invest in players because that helps because when you're winning the rest becomes easier but the move i would make would be to invest significantly in our staffing resources to give us the best chance to like really capitalise on the growth and the fan base and then I would invest in our stadia.

51:36And like we see hospitality in particular, there is huge demand for hospitality in women's football and that sometimes with a smaller stadia is difficult to deliver. So it's one of the reasons we do some main stadia games as well. So we have the Joy Stadium, which is capacity of about 6 ,500, but then we also do a handful of games a season in the Etiab. Does that come back into your point you said earlier about this being a real experience? it's a hospitality play as much as it's sport absolutely and so we know that our fans the more we learn about our fans is actually they were willing to pay more for a better product and so it's not about like a race to the bottom of like you know kids for a quid that actually isn't where our fan base is their buying behaviour tells us they're willing to spend more if they're going to get a better experience and actually at the Etihad like I said the hospitality demand is incredible so if I had 100 million I would invest in infrastructure that allows us to grow So like our home, which is 6 ,500, 7 ,000, I would grow that and then grow hospitality.

52:36So we can offer a product that is not just general admission. It's probably like GA plus almost. What numbers have you done when you've been at the Etihad? We've done like 44 ,000. Yeah, 40 ,000, 44 ,000. The challenge is the broadcast slots and the times that we get. So obviously our fan base is way more families, younger fans. So, you know, Sunday 6.45 is not ideal, whereas Saturday afternoon you're over 40 ,000. So some less so we've done 12 ,000, 20 ,000. So they're not small numbers, right? The challenge is obviously to open a stadium of that size is a significant cost. So that's something we're working on is how do we drive the cost down to open a stadium of that size?

53:20But there is obviously an appetite for hospitality for women's football games. and we have to try and drive that in our main stadium, the joy, but also dose in some almost like special, you know, 10-pole moments in the season. Yeah. What's the hardest negotiation that you've been involved in? Could be anything. Oh, that's a tough one. I mean, generally speaking, top players, I would say they're the hardest because you want them so much. You know, if you have a player that you know is going to have such a material impact on the squad, they're hard because it's it's really difficult to to not get emotionally invested and i suppose you are emotionally invested right but they're difficult because you want the player so much but you also you have a wage structure and you have to make sure that you're getting good value for the team but also you're not doing one deal that then undermines everything else in the structure so i suppose they're the most challenging not like one particular individual you're involved as MD you get involved in those processes.

54:21Yeah, so we have a new director of football, Therese Sjogren, who's like an icon of European football. She's amazing. So I'm sort of like now Therese is in, I do less so, but yeah. And then other, yeah, other negotiations, it could be anything, internal negotiations can be just as tough, right? It's like anybody running a business that you're on a pathway to profit, but you're not there yet. And I think when you, I say this to the players, I met with them the other day, I meet them every quarter and I like to share with them like the business model, what's important you know because they're doing appearance days we have commercial partners there and i will you know it's important that they show up with the best version of themselves and they're great ambassadors so i share with them the model because i want them to know how they can help and the the more partners we have spending more money with us or the more fans we have having a great time it's going to impact their wages they're completely connected but i think when you are profitable you have way more choices and you you know you have more of a say in what you do final one if everything goes to plan where is the team and the club in the next 10 years so 20 what is it 2035 hopefully you know serial winners of the WSL Champions League winners that's ultimately for me it's about like being at the top and having a brand that is known globally as a you know a mark of quality that men women children all love and that we're known for looking after our fans and being a great team to follow.

55:46And a bigger stadium. And a bigger stadium. Yeah, we'll be in the Etihad by then. Amazing. It's been really great chatting. Thank you so much for coming in and talking us through it all. Thank you so much to Charlotte for coming in and taking us through that incredible journey that Manchester City women have been on and continue to go on as they develop a proposition that meeting their ambitions sits them at the top of women's football. As I mentioned at the start, this is something that we talk about a lot, but we always talk about it from the male perspective, from men's clubs financing women's teams, from the lack of financial independence of women's football.

56:22When you hear what Charlotte has to say for this, who is living and breathing this on a daily basis, it became really apparent that there is a huge amount the women's team can take from the men's game, but there's also a huge amount that the men can learn from the women's game. And there's a real opportunity for women to create a very different type of brand within football to the ones that we're so inherently linked with in men's competition. It was really great to get that perspective and to be able to hear that inside and that side of the story from someone sitting in a position of influence in the sport.

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