Frank Smith: The Power of Matchroom & The Finances of Boxing (Ep130)

31:30I'm sorry is that a big market?

31:32Frank Smith:Yeah I mean it's interesting like our business is all about growing in new markets they've got huge investment investment into boxing and yeah it was something but it was actually a co-promotion with AJ's company so before the AJ Jake pool thing came up very late in the day and we'd signed a deal AJ was supposed to be there in Ghana but this fight came up and he went to do that understandably it was a good fight for him good choice But yeah, new markets are important for us. You know, all of these international... I've had meetings all over the world about... The problem is with boxing, it's very expensive, right?

32:09Frank Smith:So a show can range from a million dollars to$200 million. But also everyone wants the best fights. And you go, well, that's$150 million. I go, that's expensive, isn't it? Because it's very expensive. And if you compare that to like a concert. So we work with a lot of governments where they obviously do concerts, they do festivals they do other sports they do football matches and boxing is an expensive sport but for us as a business that's an interesting arm of it you know looking at new territories do you still sit on the side of the discussion you did when you last spoke to us about influence or should we say this new type of boxing being really positive for you in the sport as it brings interest to it and therefore is value yeah and I think if you don't like it don't watch it yeah you know the reality is like I watched Tommy Fury against Eddie Hall the other week right oh I saw this was it terrible like the fight wasn't great but the fact I'm sitting there going I'll watch that it's working but just don't watch we live in a world where people are offended by things why are you looking at it if you don't like it don't look at it basically there's a market for it if it brings people into the sport happy days I thought it was actually quite poorly marketed I mean the numbers it was very I think it did really well I'm sure but I think it could have done better When you look at Tommy Fury before, his fight before with Jake Paul, no?

33:30Frank Smith:Look, that was obviously a much bigger, some of the other fights he's been in, much bigger opponents as well, with disrespect to Eddie Hall, but much bigger. I was just like, it didn't feel as big as it could have been. Yeah, quite possibly. Where are we actually at with the Fury AJ? We, AJ, are signed for the fight to take place in the UK. But no date yet? No, no date yet. what's the latest that you could do a deal like that let's say and then put on a show in time because you'll i mean you can put on a show in a couple of weeks in a matter of weeks doesn't mean it's going to financially yeah you know but the the the construct is there for the fight in the uk obviously if that changes then it changes the the deal construct ultimately as in if it goes somewhere else yeah or if yeah went to saudi or america there was talks about america etc but i'm confident we'll see the fight so turkey was a big part of the netflix documentary and that kind of was a theme that ran through it and that relationship with matrim in general was like an interesting thread am i right in saying that they've also now been part of funding some of the zuffer stuff so they own so seller own i think 60 of zuffer boxing conflict for you guys yeah i'd look he still turkey ls8 continues to do business with us he'll do business with zuffer He'll do business with other promoters.

34:48Frank Smith:I think he likes being involved in all facets of the sport. He loves boxing. One thing I'll say, he loves the sport of boxing. So, yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting. But Zuffer also have a huge backer in TKO group as well. This is a$40 billion market cap company. They're huge. Ari Emanuel, Mark Shapiro, Dana White, Nick Khan, you know heads up like the the team of people behind it like they're much more successful than me you know so i'm but i just don't think they realize what boxing is like in truth yeah right take us into talent you dropped an interesting part there on the perception of what it's like as being a promoter we do a lot in different ways with talent and the challenges that you have with current talent representation now not necessarily servicing the needs of modern athletes why for you guys was talent a really cool area to go and explore and can you just actually explain to anyone that doesn't know what you put together yeah so we launched a talent agency we've signed four athletes so far um so tom aspinall who's the ufc heavyweight champion of world champion of the world ian gary who's about to become another ufc champion as well got finn russell and we got henry pollock two amazing rugby players henry probably one of the most divisive rugby players to date but It's good.

36:10Frank Smith:You know, he's got people talking about him. And Finn, people say, the best player in rugby in the world. You know, for us, it was always something we wanted to do. There was talk originally about doing a football agency. And I think we could get involved in football in time. But we want to build an agency that you look at these big agencies now. They've got six, seven, 800 clients. And they don't really deliver a service for them. You know, it's just another number in a book. And they're not doing anything. you know i look at it and it's like well you just got a big big name agency and you're just one of their and they manage a bit of their i manage their on-field stuff and they manage their off-field stuff and we want to build it out from just sport we want to do music entertainment as well in time our job is to promote like eddie is the best at what he does we promote people day in day out and these these fighters we've signed rugby players and other people will sign you know for us it's about promoting them and creating hype around them this goes back to eddie's roots doesn't it yeah that's what he started yeah he's like jerry mcguire what makes eddie so good at what he does he's the best salesman on earth like again i know i've worked for him since i was 14 he's more like a big brother to me but you can't beat him at that he's so good at it and he does it with passion you know and if he doesn't have the passion and he won't bother doing it.

37:28Frank Smith:Where's he not good? He's not good with detail, but that's my job, you know? So, like, I can't do what he does. You know, I don't... I get compared to him because it's a natural comparison. I'm not 5 % of what he is at selling and talking. You know, he's sensational at it. But he... The detail is not his world. And you can't be good at everything. How important is his brand to the business? Yeah, I think very important. But what we're trying to create is self-sufficient brands, though, that off the back of what he's created and done can continue necessarily, you know, without him as well. You know, like our darts business.

38:11Frank Smith:Boxing's a bit different because boxing's always had that, you know, you need a promoter. But our darts business, our snooker business, you know, Nineball Pool, Emily Fraser's obviously got built a profile, but they still run as brands, you know. and that's what we're trying to push in boxing. We went through a big rebrand process with match in boxing because we didn't feel the brand was strong enough. And I think he's very important, but he might not always be around. So you need to create something that people buy into without just an individual. But that was a big part of that kind of talent division.

38:47It was recognizing the value that can be had beyond just the performance on the pitch. And if you look at something like a rugby, you're picking something up, which we've talked about on all the rugby shows we've done your biggest challenge is that your your biggest star on instagram if you just want to look on social media for the men's game is see a clisi ish i think probably about 1.5 million followers 1.5 million you got a loan of mine yeah that's that's probably i think maybe some will be it's about that is the biggest rugby player followed on an instagram channel elona mars the biggest channel and she's not the biggest brand because she's a great rugby player yeah she's the biggest brand because she's got something beyond which speaks to a load of people.

39:23Yeah. But still grounded in sport. Henry Pollock has come in with a huge amount. You mentioned, you know, opinions that float around him. Fucking brilliant.

39:32Frank Smith:Yeah, no, but that's what you want. But rugby can't develop that so you guys can. Yeah, and that's our job with Henry Pollock, you know, and Finn. That's what we've got to do. You know, I think we've made a lot. I was actually, I went to Northampton Saints. Like, I'm not a crazy sports fan. I think because I work in it neither am I no but because I work in it all my life don't get me wrong when I was a kid I loved football I loved it you know but because it's my life and you're consumed in it you sort of like you don't spend that much time outside in those moments outside looking at what's going on because otherwise you just you know you just go stir crazy right but I went to Northampton Saints to watch Henry play a few weeks ago on the team play it was amazing it was packed The atmosphere was unbelievable in there.

40:19Frank Smith:You know, but I still think there's a, you know, I think CVC have invested nearly a billion into rugby across, you know, various leagues, you know, formats, etc. I don't know whether that's been a success. I think it's been a donation actually. Yeah, I don't think it has yet. I mean, but you'd hope at least that means there is some room for change and a vision for change and to build it back into what it should be and get it. But our focus right now is Henry and Finn when it comes to rugby. Yeah, but the good thing is that will benefit rugby. Yeah, but 100%. And we're seeing that already. Have you had any conversations, let's say, with any of the rugby executive on the work that you can do with some of that talent?

41:01Frank Smith:Yeah, our teams have been speaking to them. But again, when we spoke separately about getting involved in rugby, our business is about really controlling the sport, taking over ownership of the sport as much as possible. And they didn't really want us to do that. what's your take on a per player basis in terms of what you get 20 of whatever you make for them like how does that depend roughly around yeah that's that's in the industry that i'm just trying to make sense of like your business at this stage because like if i have a business that you do on the promoter side which is phenomenal makes millions signing a player that does like two to three million a year i mean it's like three four hundred grand a year back fuck with four players and make one and a half million for a load of work.

41:46We're going to build out a team on it. It's fun though.

41:49Frank Smith:But do you know, you have a trade-off of like you can optimise for growth on your core business or start this new one. It opens new doors, you know, for us as well with brands. You know, I'll give you an example. Brand came on to sponsor someone and the athlete said, no, I'm not, that's not something I want to do right now. We said, what about doing this? They did that deal. You know, in like our core business, I think for us as well, perception is a big part of all businesses, you know, and this is going to continue to grow out. You look at some of the biggest management groups now, they've got six, seven, 800 clients.

42:23Frank Smith:The money that that brings in, you look at the likes of Wasserman, you know, now the team, I think it's called. Yeah, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, I'm not allowed to say anything. It's called the team. They changed it. We won't go into detail, but yeah. But then you got like CAA, you got, you know, like these agencies, they're huge businesses. We could build this into something massive. And it has to start somewhere. Bear in mind, we started this agency. We were sitting around. We had discussions with Tom Aspinall. And five days later, we'd launched a business. Oh, really? Okay. But we're still as big as the business is.

42:53Frank Smith:We still can move quite quickly and just go, right, let's start a talent agency next week. Yeah, perfect. Here's the logo. Why has Tom Aspinall come to you to help on this side of it? Because UFC is huge, right? But UFC, you mentioned it already, seems to be brilliant at promoting UFC, but doesn't necessarily do a great job with the athletes. They suppress the athletes. Yeah, because they don't want them. They don't want superstars. They want fighters. They want the brand to be bigger than the fighters. Because otherwise, if you start relying on the fighters, that then affects your revenues. So they don't want the fighters to be superstars.

43:26Frank Smith:They want them to be recognized, but they don't want them to be superstars. You know, I think we've done more with Tom Aspinall in the last year. We've done more with Ian Gary, who we just signed the other week. You know, and... But you don't have to pay respect to the powers that be though oh yeah i have a huge respect no no no i'm just saying like you could if you sell them really heavily and they become superstars will the ufc not just suppress them and be like no no you're getting too big for your boots in the same way that you know conor mcgregor maybe got a little bit big but conor mcgregor is probably the one who broke the mold you know in truth and i go back to i have huge respect for them as a business much master individuals than me look at what they've done you know i'm not in any way but they're they're coming under a lot of pressure now more than they ever have from fighters you know from the public of people talking about you know you need to pay the fighters their fair value but yeah our job is just on an individual basis to build these guys girls whoever we sign and make them as big as we possibly can how free is tom aspinall to do the work with you while being contracted as a fighter to UFC.

44:35Frank Smith:He's signed to UFC. You know, that's his contract to fight in the UFC. We don't get involved. You know, I discussed with his dad who handles that side of things. But outside of that, he can do what he wants. You know, like within reason, you know, he can't go and box. He can't. But commercially, he can do what he wants to do outside of the octagon. I mean, let's take the business out of it. I mean, when you look at all the actors involved in this all the time, I mean, you can't help but smile and it all gets a bit murky. You had the Conor Benn stuff with them going to Zipha you had. Then a week later or so, you're launching the talent agency with Aspinall and taking a fighter off them.

45:10Frank Smith:It's good for us though with Dana. Like Dana's a huge name, right? Got a huge profile. And all Dana seems to get angry about is Eddie Hearn. So for us as a business, great. Like keep talking about it. Why is that? I don't know. Because he realizes we're the only real competition they have. You know? And it's kind of like, it's like a propaganda machine. if Dana says something so much it must be true you know and again huge respect for what they've built but it's good for us but isn't competition good for him as well like you know no they don't they don't like competition they want a monopoly yeah look at UFC yeah they don't want competition but boxing is far harder you know UFC has been constructed and built yeah exactly it's a market creation it's a brand exactly no one cared no one cared but yeah it's a market creation so it's the difference you're coming into a sport with hundreds of years of heritage in boxing So the key part there is, right, how do I be a big actor and a big influencer in this, knowing that I'm never going to own it in the same way?

46:08Because as you've already highlighted, you've got multiple governing bodies running different channels. And I know, obviously, they've got their own opinions and views on that and trying to centralize it. But if you're going to enter this world, understand how to get the most value out of it and try to control it and monopolize it, it won't be best. Because then you're back into the situation of, oh, yeah, just creating new IP brings fans. And no, it doesn't.

46:26Frank Smith:They'll create a big brand, by the way, like with inboxing. Of course they will. buckets of money you know they'll create a good brand but they're not going to take over boxing like they did with the UFC yeah and if they try to that will harm them far more than it will by recognising that actually a bit of competition in this space can create a lot of like I want to watch if you guys hate each other hate each other right that makes me as a fan interested because I you know Frank Warren right you know when you have the Queensbury matchroom kind of fights he's like oh I'm supporting the fighters then which promoter do I like more yeah and it just built it's a narrative isn't it like that's what people buy into these everything is personality yeah but what's so brilliant is that eddie han's got a fucking huge personality and dana white's got a huge personality and so now you've created two fights with one but which is which is the point yeah i'm almost more interested to see them fight which is which has been mentioned yeah it's been spoken about yeah but like trying to suppress an eddie type thing as i said it just doesn't seem like the the thing that should be done here you should be playing that role you should be trying to create that environment rather than suppress it 100 okay but like from okay so from that talent perspective let's say you get a um a tom and let's say you get a henry you say oh we want to build a brand what are you actually doing like how do you do that in ways that those athletes aren't being serviced right now but also to your point make sure that you're always seen as that support not the oh they're always trying to skim stuff off us like promoters can be seen yeah no our job is to bang the drum basically and build momentum and keep talking about them day in day out you know And that's what they don't currently have.

47:56Frank Smith:And with brands as well, working with the right brands, they're going to keep them in front of, get the attention. And you have to have the right person who buys into it because not every athlete can be bothered. Not every athlete wants to do that side of it. So you have to be working with the right people. And our job is very much commercial-led. We've got to drive revenue for them. So we've got to go to brands. We've got to bring that side of it in. But then it's like from a PR perspective. Does it not have to come from them, though? But like, I'll give you an example. I think the biggest, like I met Federer the other day, right?

48:29Frank Smith:For the first time. So jealous. He was, I think everyone I meet who's like the most famous, you know, he's one of the most famous sportsmen on earth, right? I would say now. One of the nicest blokes you can meet. Like, you know, stands there, talks to you, a bit like AJ. Again, go back to AJ. A bit like in music, Ed Sheeran. Like these people who have insane ability and are the biggest stars because they're nice people at the end of it. And they get it. Why did you sin? Were you guys doing it? We had an event at Wimbledon. One of our partners we worked with, we threw a party at Wimbledon with him.

49:04Frank Smith:And Roger was there, part of the Labour Cup stuff. And I met him there with, and Tom Aspinall was there actually. But yeah, what a guy. And I think sometimes, you know, like athletes have so much smoke blown up their ass, right? Yeah. And anyone famous, right? Over the years. And a lot of people like to hear nice things. and a lot of these people who are superstars are a bit a real do you know what i mean and a lot of people in this middle level i meet a lot of mid-level famous people right i think yeah mid-level is almost the worst yeah whereas like you meet these superstars and you go do you know what a person you are who did you meet who you're like god what a douchebag no can i write can i do it when i retire because there's loads no i'm not doing it there's there's quite a few yeah there's like i meet so many people and like the egos out of control it's like mate well you know just relax so in a talent business though you also want part of that ego like let's use a henry poll part of that ego is going to drive his yeah but you need to have someone that you can be honest with as well yeah you know that's what i saw with jake paul when he came in here which is like the jake paul that the world sees and the jake paul behind the scenes was actually very different he clearly has a switch which is show time which is show which is show time and he was not an egotistical arrogant douche respectfully behind the scenes until he was perfectly mild and nice normal dude and then the youtube video starts and he's an absolute bravado you've got you've identified rugby you know you've got combat what other sports would tennis be something tennis for sure yeah we were you know met some people a few at wimbledon uh tennis is something I mean, we'd love to be involved in golf, music, actors, not just pigeonholing it to sport.

50:53Frank Smith:I think we can replicate what we do as promoters in this world and make a big difference for people. But again, I don't want to get it to the point until we can scale it with the right group of people where you're not delivering a service for people. What if you go into the influencer world more and get your next generation of Jake Pools? Is that interesting or not? It's not really our world. do you know what I mean I have huge respect for it and I might be wrong it's like when people say about e-gaming it's like you should have got involved in e-gaming there's so much money it's like it's not what something we understand no you know so like if if an opportunity presents itself sure but it's not something we're going to go out of our way to find I would not I you know I wouldn't think isn't scale always your big issue really with this business because as you identified you have the team CAA six to 800 clients i give a shit if i'm representing cole palmer because i'm you know i'm doing his brand and then we're selling it and licensing agreements and all of this but even if i've got a mid-level premier league player maybe i'm getting lost in that 100 yeah you can deliver for a very small group of athletes incredibly well but even if you get the ability to scale your key priority has to be the level of service you can provide and the more you have the more challenging that gets and it has to be it has to also be selective with the right people but you can do a job for you know i don't buy that in all honesty it's a little bit like why it's like wealth management no don't buy it with goldman or jp morgan because you'll just be another one of their rich people yeah and you know what there's real benefits that come from scale they have access they have power they have pricing power there's real benefits and actually do you know what they just have they have more people and so they're not actually providing a worst quality service to you they just have more people with the same number of clients and that's the ratio that you need to focus on which is clients to per head because that's what determines quality of service i think some of these i look at some of these agencies though and i look at some of the talent i know with some of these agencies and you're not really getting a service but then that's just they're maybe with the wrong people yeah they're with the wrong business yeah you know and they don't care about them so like who do you think is currently underserved who you would like to poach?

53:05Frank Smith:There's so many people out there I think we could do a better job for. But again, it's about people buying into it. Like a lot of footballers, right? Footballers are making so much money from their playing career. A lot of them can't be asked outside of that. But they also don't realise that their playing career could be over in three years. What's beyond that? But again, it's about the right characters and getting them at the right time. Bringing the whole business together, right? If you're looking, media's driven a huge amount of this and the opportunities for athletes to do it. Come back to the Matchroom documentary and you guys actually positioning yourselves as front and centre, proper media property, then the work that you brought your talent into doing that.

53:42How much impact did you see off the back of that, presenting yourselves as this entity and opening the doors to something that people have probably always had quite a lot of interest in but never actually seen operationally?

53:52Frank Smith:It was huge. The Netflix show for us was huge to then give us that opportunity. And it, like I say, just opened new doors to people that maybe we wouldn't have had conversations with before. you know and that that has been a big part of it i made a big push for the netflix documentary because there's certain people within our business who didn't you know like why are we doing this we've got such a successful business you know is this the thing we should do what was that argument against it uh it's really opening the doors isn't it you know you got someone filming you for nine months were you really opening the doors yeah yeah you've got a microphone on constantly you're going into meetings and they're filming you and they you know there's all of these things going on you're Like, you've got a camera crew there.

54:30Did you get editorial or not? No. Really?

54:33Frank Smith:No, you don't get it with them. And I think that was part of it, you know, because you've also got to manage relationships with people. You can all have, like, frank open discussions, but then for it to be aired, and it's like, well, you've got to face into that, what we've said there. And it is different. But it paid off, because Eddie always says, if this goes well, it was my idea. If it goes badly, it was yours. you know and now i say whose idea was it did it make you a better operator myself personally yeah because you're more thoughtful around what you say i'm sure you're probably a little bit more empathetic i guess i think i think uh i don't think it changed me really i came across the same in it i think as i always do i think it just opened the doors as a business you know like even for me i get recognized more now it's not it was never my world i never wanted to be but it's had it's got benefits for the business you know and it's given me probably when i go into rooms now again people go oh i watch your documentary it was amazing it just makes some conversations a lot easier to begin i don't think it really changed me personally i mean only other people could really tell you that couldn't they yeah matchroom is a private company yeah we've got got invest investors we've got two investors that's new right uh yeah we've had pitch for a couple of years pitch international and more recently brewing have just invested in the business what was the price of it is it public no no it's good though i'm just intrigued if i'm like a 40 billion if i'm a 40 billion dollar tko i'm like you know would i spend 10 of my market cap or i'm maybe way off there but four billion on on buying you and integrating you and having a dominant monopoly fuck yeah four billion let him set the price for that yeah yeah anyway well maybe i'm in tech land and that would still be tech land yeah a little bit but tech land four billion is is your argument gets stronger if we're looking at it but i am i forget the numbers you get stronger yeah well i think it's not gonna be four billion yeah so your argument gets stronger if you look at that and go yeah well when you do have the market cap of that would that be entertaining but you guys you've never had a problem please speaking for you you've never had a problem with attracting interests and opportunity to take external cash into the business no it's been about the right partner yeah we've always been looking for the right partner that can help us grow you know because we never needed cash as a business because we had healthy cash reserves to do what we wanted to do again that's because the way barry runs the business and has done for years but it's been about the partner that can help us grow various areas and us being a big market as well especially within darts nine ball pool that's a big focus for us and i think now especially with brewing on board pitch have been great but brewing on board as well that's where we're going to see significant growth do you see all of the functions operating well together better than they have done before uh i think where we can improve and you know we've been speaking about this a lot is where we move so quickly in our each individual silos right and it's they are run separately completely separately we don't always sit back and go actually could we work better together as a group and you know you know bringing money in is always important but saving money is important as well can we save money as a group using our power within this industry we do 600 event days a year across the business you know i think that's where the investment piece is going to help us you know from a strategy and structural perspective because that that's where we're looking now as a business as a whole and seeing where can we improve as a group where have you not been aggressive enough where you would like to be more so moving forwards we're not i everything we've done has just been natural without huge invest financial investment and i think the you again i go back to the u.s now is the place where i think more whether regression is the right word or you know actual focus and a push with investment that's what i think that the the aim should be now as a group.

58:34So is that why Bruin, for example, is the right partner for you?

58:37Frank Smith:Yeah, they're a great team. You know, George Pine, he led NASCAR, IMG, you know, he was in our board meeting. You know, he's going to be brilliant, I think, for the businesses, some Brendan as well, all of the team. And I think just adding that bit more structure is going to be key for the business to grow because it's amazing to have seen what's been created from a family business, and what we do now. But where we can get to, the levels we can go to, there is no barriers. Personally, as these businesses grow, you can probably feel like you know the company and you know the business lines and everything when it's a certain size.

59:15Have you felt any of those moments where you're like, shit, this is actually growing, it's now reaching out to areas? Have you felt challenged in ways? Have you been pushed to, I guess, broaden a lot of what you've been capable of doing as this company has developed?

59:26Frank Smith:Yeah, 100%. But it's enjoyable. I love it. I love the pressure. You know, it doesn't feel like pressure because we enjoy what we do, you know, and we always retain that. I think if I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't be there, you know. Like if it was just stress and no enjoyment, I wouldn't be there. But I love where we are right now. And sport opens so many doors, you know, across the board. So, yeah, there is definitely more pressure than ever, but sort of embrace it really. yeah what bit of the promoter business do you like least i'd the the perception like i said earlier that you're not necessarily always on the fighter side can you be a talent manager and also a promoter in the same not not in boxing yeah no because you couldn't manage boxes and be the promoter we wouldn't do that you couldn't have aj for example no because it wouldn't be yeah yeah They were like, oh, AJ's signed for CIA.

1:00:24They must be gutted.

1:00:25Frank Smith:And it was always, that was always the way we said we're not going to do that. You know, we're never going to get involved in managing people within the sport week because that's where, you know, there's a conflict of interest ultimately. Yeah, and just to explain that from other people, you have... And it's illegal in America as well. Is it illegal? Yeah. There's a law on Muhammad Ali Act, which Zufra are actually trying to change right now. But for various reasons where you can't do it. The other massive change actually in America is also the kind of permissioning of betting. Yeah. And Calci and Polymarket's obviously from my world.

1:00:59Frank Smith:Polymarket's crazy, the size of it now. Calci, larger. Really? Yeah. But they're two like prediction marketplaces. It's sports betting. Yeah. 95 % of volume is sports. But it's a prediction marketplace, so it's fine. Yeah. Long live the Trump administration. That does change your business now. For sure. But again, I think that's where the US is such a focus for us now. in sports like darts especially and nine ball pool like boxing we've we've had that there for years we've been around boxing isn't a huge gambling market but sports like darts you know those sports there are there's huge markets so much can't it yeah and also if we remember you know going back to those businesses you said you'd love to run those businesses but they are they're better at making money aren't they like you you can operate slightly better margins in them you don't necessarily have the same vulnerabilities that you've highlighted it's not solely talent Talent is obviously important in all areas, but the World Championships, they sell 100 ,000 tickets in a matter of hours, and you don't know you're going to watch play at Dots.

1:01:56Frank Smith:Yeah. You know? Whereas if we go and sell with an event in Manchester, we don't just sell tickets because we're there. Yeah. How much is a ticket to a Dots? Range from, I think, 30 pounds. It depends on the tournament. 30 pounds up to hospitality at the World Championships, 1 ,000 pounds for certain packages. it's a big sport it's well worth it yeah it should get in all seriousness genuinely whether you like it or not i think it's everything that we preach about which is you make it the sports center right but everything around it makes it what it is it's entertainment it's an entertainment product and what they've done amazingly well is the reason you don't like it is because you may joke around and say oh it's just people throwing something but well you turn that into an entertainment product with massive broadcast where it's great to watch on tv you've built an experience in person like it's everything that sport that's finding stuff challenging in this day and age needs to easy to understand and fast-paced yeah like what i gotta do from 501 to zero with as quickly as possible with personalities yeah right so you've got so you've got talent that can back it up you've got a broadcast product you've got an experiential product and a leg might take three four minutes and a sensible head in charge and matt obviously yeah yeah much better something yeah um when have you been most nervous with eddie never because i don't have that relationship with never no maybe like early days when i was 15 16 but now not you've never sat down from meeting with him where it's like oh fuck we lost 10 million quid on that no because you don't think you'll judge you in the way that you would expect to be judged in that situation i would judge you yeah but that's why i'm but i'm that so i'm the other side i'm the cautious side so i'm the one saying nah you know like i'm the other side of it so i'm the one fuck it you know like but we don't have that relationship what does no one see about him that they should see then uh his work ethic his work ethic is unmatched for someone who grew up with money has money i'm unrivaled part of the driver though isn't it yeah why is that because everyone always says Barry Hearnson, you know, he wants to go above and beyond.

1:04:04Frank Smith:Above and beyond. We can be like that because we're different characters, but no one sees the amount of work he does. What have you most disagreed on? What's been the biggest disagreement? I think more character stuff where I'm quite, my view on a lot of things is it's done, it is what it is. So someone makes a mistake, it's done. Why are we going to sit here and moan about it? you've done it whereas Izzy's like ah bye you know he'll go hold up and he goes all you ever say is it is what it is I'm like well it is isn't it you're going to change it can you go back in time so like that's where we disagree it's head and heart right it's complete yeah it's complete two different characters do you not think that you can do a post-mortem analyse what went wrong learn from it and then stop it from happening again yeah but it doesn't mean you have to do that in a manner where you're frustrated I agree with that you know I am I'm quite happy I'm just the most content in it i don't get too excited i don't get down right i'll just stay on this level right here and that frustrates people because we're just like okay if you don't know how to deal with it right most people are expecting if you say something you expect something to get robbed by it you want a reaction if you don't get a reaction oh i hate it yeah whereas i just go okay it doesn't mean i agree with it but you go okay and then you just take this thing out of the situation with most things in life yeah should we do a quick fire we basically have already tell me what is your favorite venue uh madison square gardens why the history of it as a venue it's spectacular i love it there you didn't go to taylor swift's wedding did you no i've got the invite i couldn't make it there i love a place to get married me and travis kelsey we're going to sign him but you know what's the worst trip for you to go on from a travel perspective or Australia is a long way away I love Australia there's a long way away and we go for like four days and it's like oh my goodness what are you doing that do you judge you try no you can't because I guess I don't adjust anyway yeah well no I just I sleep when I'm tired do you raw dog it yeah what have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months your perception of success is not everybody's your view of success you know like not everyone just because someone chooses to do something else doesn't mean they're wrong like you know i don't know i guess you know when we when we grow up all success is a way well for me when i was growing it was all about money this that the other it's like everyone's got different drivers and it doesn't mean they're wrong what part of the boxing business is most exciting at the moment uh the competition because it's it's fun having competition which athlete do you not have in the management or talent agency business that you'd most like to have I'd like an F1 driver in the talent business specific one mmm I like Charles Leclerc I think he's cool yeah he's cool he's good looking as well he's good looking yeah does help yeah it does help well okay if you could choose an athlete retired who wasn't optimized so we don't feel this conflict i was saying not optimized so someone where you look at and you go i mean you were unbelievable but didn't quite make the most of that that you could have actually added the value to thierry omri but he did well he was optimized at the time he was in the boom yeah in the year where you didn't see it often right Paolo Di Cania oh there you go that's quality yeah you could have had him Paolo Di Cania or Freddie Lundberg Freddie Lundberg would have been a good one there you go he had the he had the KP kind of you know but Paolo because he was a bad boy wasn't he you were a Sanford yeah and when he scored that when he scored that volley how are you feeling at the moment is what it is ah shut up do you go no I don't go to my I had a season ticket before I started working at matchroom yeah and then just that overtook my life yeah final one what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you um the kindest thing anyone's ever done for me my missus looking after my family like as in being there for my family making an effort with my family that means a lot to me because i don't always have the time to do it i love that all right thank you so much honestly coming back in has been great and wow that has developed a lot over the last few years so it's awesome to hear it and well done for everything you've done.

1:08:34Frank Smith:Appreciate it. Thanks so much to Frank for joining us for the second time and delivering such a high quality conversation on what it takes to operate at this level in boxing. I said it in the intro, now you see what I mean. I find his approach fascinating and admirable in equal measures. It just doesn't seem like you can get under his skin, which is pretty impressive considering the industry that he operates in. Having said that, the way he speaks and the confidence that he exudes suggests this is a man fully in control of what he's doing and Matrim looks stronger than ever for it. I hope you enjoyed the show and would love to hear your thoughts.

1:09:05Now, if you want to see more from today's show, you can do so by going to YouTube or any of our other social channels across Instagram, TikTok, and of course, now Substack. There are more snippets to share and bite-sized chunks to consume. And whilst you're there, please do like, subscribe, and follow the show. As you will hear from your other favorite pods, it makes a huge difference when bringing you the best guests and conversations from around the world of sport, which is of course our endless aim. Thank you again for tuning in and we'll see you next week. The business of sport is supported by Airwallex, the intelligent financial platform used by more than 200 ,000 modern businesses, from SaaS and marketplaces to some of the most ambitious organizations in sport, including McLaren Racing, Arsenal and the San Francisco Giants.

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