Guy Kinnings, DP World Tour & Ryder Cup Europe CEO, ‘Why This is Golf’s Moment’ (Ep70)

23:25You've got to cater for them. main tour over 50s but all of them offer something different and they do that very well and for me the opportunity is also if we can in the future bring the game together it'll allow us to involve also the women's game which is really growing and we would love to see grow more we have mixed events which is really important so i think it's as you say the different parts of it appeal to different demographics that's what golf we don't claim to be the biggest sport in the world but It's a really interesting sport. And it's a sport that everyone gets drawn to. You only have to look.

24:02Businessmen, sportsmen. They finish their playing careers. But look what's happening in tennis right now. All of them play. Roger, Rafa, Andy. Novak came to the Ryder Cup in Rome. He was brilliant. All four of them. And guess what? They'll all want to be really good. And, you know, Rafa's probably stolen a march. But they'll all be trying to compete. Oh, absolutely. But we have other people. You know, you saw Tom Holland's there. all the F1 drivers. And, you know, Gareth Bale is brilliant. So you have people drawn to the sport after they've done what they've done, which is great. It brings a new demographic.

24:35Miami Grand Prix, big bit of content put out. Tom Brady and Carlos Sainz playing golf. Exactly right. Neither of them golfers, massive sports people, and they're there for that weekend. What are they doing? And they're playing golf. And golf is that great level. And we have these, the PGA Tour have done it. We've done stuff with creators, the sort of the social media influencers who take the sport to a completely different audience. But Carlos was brilliant. He came to the Ryder Cup as well and was just, they're so giving of their time because it's something about, you know, it's the nature of the sport.

25:05You are walking around for four hours and there's time to interact and talk and all of that. What did you think about the crossover when they did the, I think it was Vegas, wasn't it? With Netflix and you had golfers and Formula One drivers teaming up to do it. Is that something that you think is brilliant for the sport? Because we chat about it loads where the purists go, the innovators go, we need to do it. The truth is we have to innovate. We have to change. That's a really good thing. Change is good. And people will think of golfers, people in blazers and tyres and things like that. And there's room for that, but there's room for everything else.

25:37Golf can be consumed in lots of different ways. Our traditional is 72-hole stroke play. You play match play in the Ryder Cup. Everyone loves it. Pairs event a couple of weeks ago, Rory and Shane playing the Hoygaard twin. People love that. TGL this year. launched really good golf in a different way so there's lots of different ways of doing i loved the the golfers and the f1 guys but anything that shows the sport in a different way that appeals to different people brings different people to it i've always said golf so hard on itself to be quote a golf fan you i think i've had to have played 18 holes four times a year well that excludes almost everyone if you're sitting there and you've never actually been out on a golf course but you're gaming or you're going to Topgolf, listening to the music, eating chicken wings and whatever it may be.

26:25You are a golf fan. And so finding different ways to bring people globally to the game. I mean, in Korea, it is entirely common practice for everyone to finish work, head to a bar, golf's on, hitting balls into a screen. You've got people who've never been out playing golf on grass who can go, I shot 68 around Pine Valley. It is all about getting new audiences in. And I think golf's doing that. And there's room for different formats. That's the magic of the game. It's mixed sport, old and young. I mean, I go out with my kids. You can go and play it with an 80-year-old. It's got all of those assets.

27:01You know, use them. It was announced last week. You pointed at me with that. You were like, you can go out with an 80-year-old. I'm thinking of taking some elderly relatives out. I was very kind of me. Me and Gary go out together hobbling. Not hobbling, cartwheeling. Thank you. Oh, cartwheeling. No, sorry. Springing. In a sprightly way. But last week they announced that there's going to be mixed Olympics in golf. So you've got a men's competition, women's competition. That's great. We only get six medals. Swimming has about 300. But we wanted more. So actually having a mixed event, the men and the women playing together as part of that is more medals.

27:36But also it's what golf can do. Mixed golf is a good thing. So much of this now is dependent on the governance of the sport, being able to deliver what we, the fans, really all want to see. And over the last few years, there's been so much around this with the rise of Live Golf. But also, we haven't really talked about the relationships between European Tour, PGA, and then obviously why that's been a problem, having something like Live. So can you talk about the significance of the strategic alliance, why it's been so important for the development of the game, for these governing bodies to exist and keep developing together to ensure the sport doesn't lose any of that magic that you've just described?

28:15I mean, you started the question with exactly the right reference, which was as fans. And sometimes people forget that. They get buried in sort of the politics of these sort of things. At the end of the day, all that matters is the fans, the people who are tuning in, turning up, investing in the sport. We've got to think about them. And they want to watch great golf on wonderful golf courses with the best players. So people have a misconception that we did a close strategic alliance with the PGA Tour because of the arrival of a new product. We didn't. We've been talking to them for years because the reality was there's no point being competitive.

28:49You're better together. So the two biggest, strongest tours, DP World Tour, PGA Tour, it was much better that we worked together. And we have a strategic alliance that works very well with what is clearly the strongest golfing body in the world right now. And that has worked very well and we enjoy that. At the same time, we as a tour, we're the international tour. We want to see the game be global. We want to see it more united. So it's our job to make sure we maintain really good relationships with tours around the world, with the new competitors, with Live and with Piff. You know, I'd love to see a future where everything can come together.

29:25People see this as a challenge. And as you said, there's been a lot of coverage. I see it as an opportunity. What you've got for the first time is private equity investment coming into the sport. You've got participation numbers up, people thinking globally. All of those are really good things. It's our job to try and find a way, pulling all of that together to support the game, not just at the very pinnacle of that pyramid with the professional players, but at all levels. Wouldn't it be wonderful to see investment in the women's game as well, which we all want to do, but also grassroots bringing in sort of the next generation, attracting those.

30:01So for me, I think it's something, an opportunity to be grasped. And hopefully we will do that in the years to come. Do you ever feel pressure from more original stakeholders, the traditional golf audience that people stereotypically have just in terms of you saying grasp the opportunity? they will be going it's destroying our sport blah blah blah blah blah an awful lot of them are a little bit more open-minded than we'd imagine because the bottom line is that opening the game up more making it more appealing is not in any way diminishing what are all of those you know as i said the sport has a wonderful asset in its history and its legacy and its relevance and things mattering and all of that is great but there's an ability to take that nurture it make it more appealing to people, but also add new audiences, whether that's new formats.

30:53And that doesn't impact what is being done elsewhere. But our tour is being really well received. Satisfaction surveys amongst fans, amongst broadcasters. We are getting much, much more investment in sponsorship than we've ever had before. Consumer levels are up. All of these things are good. But what we try and do is to try and attract an audience in a slightly different way. a lot of the content we've made is done with a bit of a smile on our faces. And we're really lucky. Our players not only give time to do great content, and we've done stuff, the Angry Golfers, the Molly Wood, Tommy Fleetwood, Francesco Molnar, wonderful stuff.

31:28And it really attracts an audience because what it's doing is taking golf, but doing it with a smile. And our guys give time up to do that, not only because actually it helps us and it helps the game, it also helps them. It puts them in a new light. But by doing that, I think there's a way of satisfying the history, but also providing for what I think can be a really exciting future. And all of that's compatible. It is not mutually exclusive. But the challenge is, and will always be, in a sport defined by individuals, if you have multiple competitions fighting for that same group of players, the challenge will be fragmentation.

32:02Ultimately in sport, whether it's boxing, whether it's football, whether it's golf, whether it's tennis, you want to see the best playing the best. 100 % right. And at the moment, you've got an awful lot of golf tournaments around the world competing for the same players. And I think the opportunity that presents itself, therefore, getting all of these different stakeholders who, let's be honest, love golf. They're investing in this because they love golf. They see the value in golf. If you find a way of working that so that you can consolidate and make sure that a global schedule that will allow for that to happen more often.

32:36the moment the best players in the world in the men's game play together in the majors we want that to happen more often we want there to be massive events in the US massive events around the world and as you say it's just providing different formats that are appealing to the fans we know the Ryder Cup everyone loves it but if you did it every week or changed it that wouldn't be appealing to them so it's our job I think to say that's what the fans want, let's listen we've got an ability to try and make that happen and people want to make it happen But you do have to say, don't you? I mean, you recognize the Ryder Cup as the most valuable assets that you have.

33:11And therefore, being able to create a connection between participating in the Ryder Cup and participating in the DP World Tour. No matter how nice we want to be to everyone, you have to retain that to keep the value of the DP World Tour. I'm sorry, this shows how naive I am. Can you play in the Ryder Cup without doing the DP World? No, you can't. Just so you know, you are nearly qualified to play in the Ryder Cup because you only have to be two things. you have to be born in europe i think you can i don't know but i assume that yeah and you have to be a member of our tour and to be a member of our tour you have to work play within the rules and i think the current rules are you got to play a minimum of four tournaments and so the player i mean but you know in turn in the world that's smart but in the world of stick and carrot you don't want to make it stick the truth is very few of the guys play just four most play a lot more than that rory plays well over double that and that's not because he wants to qualify for it's because he wants to play in his home national open the irish he loves playing in wentworth he loves playing in dubai i mean wins a lot of these so he comes and does that other guys who play on the pga tour shane larry tommy fleetwood they're wonderful supporters of our tour at events sometimes opposite the pga tour sometimes when the fedex cups finish but let's not diminish it as well the race to dubai the prize pot you know they're still great it's not insignificant it is it's nice to reward players because you know what i can't again from my old world of being an agent these guys work really hard they train they work they have an immense talent they are immensely hard-working people and they're real athletes they deserve these riches and so i'm happy to see them get it that's our job is to provide a platform i'm just trying to understand the business behind it though and trying to understand like inflows and outflows and it's like what are the outflows then like what are the costs of the business for us we put on over 40 tournaments on the dp world tour we have about 30 tournaments on the hotel planner tour do you pay for the courses so the two different models there are events that we own and run and there are events where a promoter will come in and take that responsibility and this is where we do it and we work really hard to do it in a sustainable way as we can but effectively you're building a little town sometimes a really big town when it's a Ryder Cup or one of the other events for every week.

35:26And you do that in different countries and then the roadshow moves on. So it's not unlike what we do is not unlike the F1 model. So there's the cost absolutely of building a tournament and setting up to produce the extraordinary coverage that we make globally for World Feed, Goz and Sky, NBC and around the globe, 800 million people watching around the world. There are huge costs to putting all of that on. And then you get the benefits of sponsorship and media rights and consumer revenue. And people are coming to tournaments more than ever. And I think it was extraordinary how the consumer revenues have been growing for the tour because people like the sport.

36:07So it's a balance. And you've got to make sure you're getting more in than the costs are going out. Is the revenue split pretty balanced between, you know, you mentioned those three core areas, media rights, sponsorship and events. percentage-wise, are they pretty level in what they deliver for you? It's been really interesting. The consumer area is the biggest area of growth. And what do you mean by consumer? So consumer, I mean sort of ticketing, premium hospitality, merchandise, all of the good stuff that comes with that. And that's an area that we are growing and is showing the fastest area of growth.

36:38The traditional areas of sponsorship, which comes in either as title sponsors or as what we call official marketing partners, and they support the tour throughout the year, that's been growing really fast. And that's almost been a surprise because there's been uncertainty in the sport. People haven't known what's been going on. And yet our most loyal sponsors and partners have stuck with us and have extended and a lot with long-term arrangements. And we've had amazing new investments. So since 2019, pre-COVID, we've now doubled the sponsorship revenues that come into the DP World Tour. My first job when I went to the tour was the Ryder Cup in Paris in 2018.

37:15I thought, you can't better that. In 2023, we had troubled sponsorship revenues coming in. Now, for sure, costs have gone up as well. And the supply chain and war in Europe and all of these things didn't make it easy. So we needed to do that. But the reality is revenues are growing. Golf is very appealing to traditionally these blue chip brands. You always knew that you were going to have fashion, hotels, airlines, auto, boom, boom, boom, boom. But what's been really interesting, and it's kind of what we were talking about before we did this, there are new brands being drawn to it because there's a lovely story about golf.

37:52I mean, as a sport, we punch way above our weight in terms of the investment we get and the media rights we get and all of those have been strong. What's been really exciting is I think there are new brands being attracted to the sport. And at the moment we're able to go, you know what, we're all working together. I think there'll be a big bounce. What area are you not currently working in or what industry do you not partner with? It could be brand or broad stroke that you think could benefit significantly from partnering with golf. I think that the area of, you know, we've woken up to the fact that golf is really data rich.

38:27And we've improved our coverage, the experience of the fans online and at tournaments. So the tech side is really interesting and the tech side improving the product, but also coming on board as sponsors. You know, cybersecurity is incredibly important to us right now, to everyone, as we've all seen last week. So, again, they're people who support us, may become sponsors. What's also interesting is golf is a really valuable sport to take around the world. The conversations we have with governments, I'm probably making up this stat, but I'll stand by it. But a golf tourist, I think, on average, spends something like five or six times more than a regular tourist and stays longer.

39:08Because they come in to see the sights and then they play and whatever. We delivered an economic impact report in Rome following the Ryder Cup, which showed, I think, 300 million, just under 300 million. investment into Rome and Italy driven by the event. Because people come in and go, go to the Malfi Coast, go and watch this great event, we'll go and play some golf afterwards. So as we go around the world to countries that may have historically been drawn to other sports, we just announced our second tournament in India. Imagine we could take a little bit of the otherwise cricket focused support in India and turn it into golf.

39:41And there are other countries like that. We go to so many countries where you deal with the government and they see the value in having a golf product. So we started our first ever golf tournament in Dubai in 1989. And there was just a small city, lots of sand, and a single golf course, which was opposite the aluminium factory because a byproduct of the aluminium smelting process was clean enough water to build a golf course. So that has grown from there to being this enormous focus for us in the Middle East. And they now have multiple golf courses in Dubai, in Abu Dhabi, in Saudi, in Bahrain, in Ras al-Khaimah, Qatar.

40:20And they see the value in golf as a tourism product. So there are all sorts of areas that we can get to as we go. For anything that live is or isn't, what's really interesting on the sport is that it's been chosen as a major thing for a country looking to build its recognition on a global stage as such a core asset. They have chosen the value of that sport to pump a lot of money into and elevate who they believe they are within this environment. So it's interesting the power of sport that's clearly recognised. And I think you're absolutely right because the worst thing would be no one wanting to invest in our sport because they didn't really see it as appealing.

40:54The reality is these are very smart people. They're not investing for fun. They're investing because they believe this sport is, if it goes more global and more united, can be incredibly valuable. So I welcome that. And you're absolutely right. It's not a choice of different golfing products. they can choose to invest in other sports, in arts, in entertainment, in other ways. Our job is collectively to make the sport of golf as appealing as it can possibly be to current and future sponsorship fans, broadcasters and everything. If I was private equity and I'm looking at investing in golf, not live, so existing competition federations, how could I do that?

41:36Could I invest in the DP World Tour? A great question. We are not an investable entity. We're a members tour. you know i work for 400 players i'm heading out to turkey on monday to sit and listen to my players you know that's all i have to do my job is kind of listen to my listen to my members act on that listen to stuff oh that sucks i'm sorry you think it does yeah go and go and hang out in turkey for a couple of days it's really tough but someone has to play some golf yeah i know it's when it's when you go god i had such a busy week in augusta and everyone's like yeah right yeah so yeah okay but But the truth is, it's actually fascinating.

42:10You get to go and do that. So no, we're not investable as such, but there are lots of ways to be involved in the sport. PJ Tour Enterprise is something that's different in the States, but the reality is people who are drawn to golf can get involved in many ways. That's sponsorship. They can get involved in ownership of courses and all of that. We're seeing that happening. So there are so many ways to be associated with the sport that you see the value in. So if you're owned by like your 400 members, or that's kind of the structure, if you have, as companies do, profits at end of year, where does that go to?

42:45Is that reinvested? Is that dividends? How does the structure impact distributions? Our job is, we're a non-profit. Everything we make has to go to our members. So our goal each year is to make sure that we generate enough to put on as prize money for all of our members. And we have some great sponsorship, as we said, to have the people like TP World and Rolex, BMW, Genesis, all of these brands that we work with helps us. We have an amazing relationship with the PGA Tour who provide financial support as part of the arrangements we have with them. So all of this is to make sure that we don't end up with profit.

43:25Sure, we invest to improve our product. So the monies we make on the Ryder Cup are to be used to help benefit the members of the tour. it's also used to make sure that we put on what we think is the biggest and best show in golf. So you improve your product and you provide prize money for your members. If I were to say, hey, here's 500 million now, I'm leading an investment in an investable entity for you. What would you spend on today that you're not able to, given the structure that you have? What a good question. And thank you for the offer. That's very kind. We'll follow up afterwards. I think we could have a number of tournaments with your name and image.

44:04I just want the Stebbings open. I think you could. Yes, it's perfectly doable. It's two holes, very short. And you go to your halfway house, which is after two holes. Yeah, perfect. Very good. One hole halfway house. I don't want to do two without a halfway house. No, I know. And you're going to have to wear your T-shirt. And I know probably flip-flops. But it's doable. For you, Mr. Stebbings, not a problem. We'll find a way. But the truth is what I'd love to see with your investment, and we'll work on it, is to have four majors, which are wonderful. as we saw a couple of weeks ago the masters was just brilliant all of the majors are wonderful the rider cup is exceptional i would love to see international events around the world we don't necessarily need to build new ones we can take historical ones with those trophies with all the names on them and elevate those still further and i would love to see an ability to make those bigger stronger events increase prize money stronger fields and do them in the right markets So we've talked about the joy of going to European capital cities, going to Paris, going to Rome, the idea of going to the Middle East.

45:05But also we've got huge golf markets and historical golf markets where the Man in Black came from from South Africa. In Australia, we've got some wonderful players. Adam Scott sits on the PGA Tour board. And, you know, you'd want to see the events in Australia grow. You know, we've gone into Asia Pack. We've done events. We do the National Open in China. We did the National Open in India. I would love to see those events, with your name on them, obviously, very happily, elevated to such a level that people look not just as, hey, the majors and the big PGA Tour events, look at it as huge global events.

45:41And that, I think, is the opportunity for the game, global unity. When you see all of those different markets, where do you think golf is still small but has the biggest opportunity to be very big? I think that I was really excited when we announced last week that we were going with DP World, our partners, to do a second event in India. The Indian Open is sponsored by Hero. DP World are going in to do another event in India. And I think that that market is ripe for growth. Is golf big in India now? But it has been. We played multiple events there. There's a sort of a historical British influence there, but we're getting some great Indian players coming out.

46:19There are some good courses as well. There are some good courses. Which is, let's be honest, that's really important because this is infrastructure driven as well. 100 % right. I mean, the course that we play at the National Open at DLF is amazing. We're going to be going to Delhi Country Club, which is a wonderful historical course for this DP World event. I think India is a huge opportunity. I think that China still remains whilst we focused on it. Back in the day, I remember a World Golf Championship, one of the top then eight events in the world, went to Shanghai. Mr. Woods kindly turned up along with a lot of the other players and inspired people there.

46:52And golf, there's a different perception of golf now in China. I think there's an opportunity there. There are wonderful golf markets. I mean, Japan remains the second biggest national golf market in the world after North America. And Japan had the Olympics for golf. And I think there's an opportunity there. Korea has been a huge growth there. And the women have led the way, but the guys are catching up. Your Tom Kims, Ben Andres and others. So those are, I think, huge opportunity markets. I think there is more to be done in the Middle East. And I think there is more to be done in emerging probably Eastern European countries who have an interest in golf.

47:28And golf, we have a pathway for people who have an interest. You go, put on a tournament on our Hotel Planner tour. Graduate to a tour on the, or indeed on the Legends tour. And then go to the DP World Tour. And who knows, one day the Ryder Cup might come to your country, your course. Can we do that now? because I've been kind of touching around it, but one of the best events, not just in golf, but in sport. We're in a Ryder Cup year as well. I don't even want to put any words in your mouth. Can you tell us about the Ryder Cup and how important this is? I mean, it's kind of the reason I'm working at Europe into a group because I'd worked very happily as an agent for nearly 30 years at IMG and had the most wonderful time.

48:10But when the chance came to run the Ryder Cup eight years ago, I couldn't miss it because there's something very very special about an event which is nothing about prize money you talk about the walk to glory at the 18th at Open or you watch Tiger win and Rory at 18 at August the first tee at the Ryder Cup is like nothing else in sport, the crowd that doesn't behave suddenly like polite golf crowds and they sing at each other and they sing is electric and it's grown every year, every two years, sorry, the event will get stronger and stronger. I did not think you could top Paris. I stood in awe when they finished that.

48:56It was the most unbelievable event. We had nearly 10 ,000 people on the first tee. It was magic. The noise. The noise and the atmosphere and the gladiatorial. I mean, two, four players walk out into that cauldron and somehow have a talent to pull club away and smash it 300 yards down the middle unbelievable i didn't think you could top it you then go to rome it was even better and this is in a country that doesn't really know much about golf but the magic of that crowd american fans european fans and being in rome being within 10 kilometers of the coliseum and you know we're doing the gladiatorial thing you know wow what look at the comparisons it was amazing we now go to new york which will be obviously quiet and not really hear the fans there at that one but it'll be fantastic you take what was the success of rome you go to new york in 27 we come back to ireland who i mean irish fans golf is in their dna we've been to france and to italy because they were semi-emerging golfing nations and we hope that'll kickstart talent coming from those countries the irish have always shown off in the rider cup most of the winning putts over the years have been held by irishmen paul mcginny was a wonderful captain I mean, you look at what's going on and then you layer in Rory and what Shane did.

50:13We're going back to Port Rush at the Open. So I cannot wait for Ryder Cup there in 27. And it's something people just look forward to. It attracts a golf audience, but a non-golf audience. If you're a sports fan, even if you're not tuning in for all of our events week in, week out, you will not miss the Ryder Cup. I remember, I mean, you talk about your mother's influence. It was my mother's influence. I remember I'd been offered the job and I was talking to my brother and I said I've got this chance to go and do the Ryder Cup he said well you're happy with I said I am but he went Ryder Cup I mean he knows nothing he's a he's a writer he has no interest in golf he said that's the event she loves more than anything else in sport she would lock the front door three days ready meals and hide behind the sofa because she couldn't watch because it's that compelling so decision made I had to take the job but it is I think not just the best thing we've got in golf because people play for the right reasons continent country whatever I think it's one of the great sporting events I agree and you've mentioned that now three times it was a topic last time obviously it was you know quite funny built a lot of the animosity but it was around the remuneration and pay and in sport now you know generally the top performances no matter what it is you get paid even international why has this been different I understand why it's important but through the evolution of sport when things have changed why has this been different and and i guess remained as it was as just that pure value to a badge again i know when it's best to let people a lot more competent than me speak and basically what i should be doing now is quoting what luke donnell says and luke who is an old client of mine has turned out to be an absolutely brilliant captain what he did in rome was exceptional he's agreed to do it again he's going again as captain in new york he has been very smart he's learned from those that have gone before all the other great captains.

51:58And what they've realized is there is a reason why European players who are lower in the world rankings than their American counterparts with a fairly consistent basis for the last 30, 40 years have won. And they've done that because of a spirit and a team spirit and a way that they come together. And I'm not criticizing the American stall. All I know is I've seen it with the Europeans. They come together in a way that is utterly magical. And Luke has tapped into that. And he said, it's because you're playing for something a lot bigger. It's not to do with money. It's to do with playing for each other, playing country, continent, the history.

52:34And in a way, they're playing for all of those. They're also playing a little bit for our tour. And it puts a spring in everyone's step when they defy the odds and win against what are unbelievably talented American teams. Home and away, they compete. And that's why I think the fact that no one talks about what they get paid is you're leaving history. You're doing something that will utterly define your career. And I remember being back in the day as an agent. I would say majors, order of merits, you will get huge respect for what you do there. But you'll be truly loved if you are a superstar at the Ryder Cup.

53:15But also as like a capitalist that I am, as an agent, I'm like, hello, exposure. I care about the brand deals I care about BA putting a big check in my pocket at the end of the day the Colgate advert that Instagram will get like this is great business for you as the individual enterprise 100 % and you sit there and of course now I'm far far more scrupulous than that because I'm obviously part of the governing body but back in the day as an agent someone would have gone what's it worth and you'd have worked it out and you've got to do it in a proper way you don't be exploitative but if you're a brilliant captain fantastic part of the team behind the team or a player the value is immense and there are players whose careers have been pretty well defined Ian Poulter back in the day never won the top top prizes individually I worked with Monty who had an astonishing individual career eight order of merit unbelievable winner around the world but because he played it seemed better in a team environment than he did in an individual ever loved him you look at Luke as a captain Luke, utterly one of the most brilliant amateurs I've ever seen, came out, became world number one, won tournaments all over the world.

54:26But what will his legacy be? His legacy will be, I think he was unbeaten as a player in the Ryder Cup, or their teams were unbeaten. And as a captain, he clearly is a genius. He's an unbelievable leader. And I knew, I thought he'd be good. I had no idea he was going to be quite as brilliant as he is. And he has a great team. He learns from those that have gone before. And that will be his legacy. Was the job what you thought it would be? When you had that conversation with your brother and, you know, you remember your mother's love with the Ryder Cup and you're going in and I'm sure you have some expectations, some visions.

55:02Was it what you thought it would be? How interesting. No, it wasn't. Yeah. Because I had loved working with the players, you know, again, talentless, but watching real talent on display. and having had the chance to work with the old big three in the Tiger era and moving into this new era, I loved it and worked on players. But the chance to go for the Ryder Cup, the Ryder Cup was so much bigger and better than I thought it would be. But also going from being a dodgy agent to being a supposedly respectable, not quite, person working for the governing body, I really loved. One, because the people I got to work with, I was astonished the talent we had there at the tour.

55:44I love still working for the players, but in a slightly different way. They don't have to phone me and ask me to book a return flight, but they'd ask me to make sure the prize money levels go up. But I didn't expect it to be as enjoyable as I found it. And having done six or seven years of that, and then with all of those years of kind of, you know, picking up stuff around golf, my one job is to know everyone in the sport and what's going on. But to then be given the chance to be the CEO, which I got a year ago, was, I mean, an unbelievable privilege. I've taken my time to get there. You'll have interviewed people who have been CEOs and moved on in 25.

56:22I mean, I've taken decades. But what it does mean, I brought all of that knowledge and experience. I kind of know what's going on. And I have to say, I love it. And people go, oh, you know, all this stuff that's going on. I'm like, yeah, I know. But actually, I reckon 85 % of what I do, I love and 15 % quite hard. Well, anyone's going to take that. In fact, most people will take the reverse. So it's not been what I expected, but I think it's been better than I thought. Can you take me to a situation where you didn't know what to do in that 15 %? You know, when you get to a situation where you just don't know what to do and what happened?

56:56I mean, the way I've always tried to work and particularly in the role that I've been doing is kind of followed a mantra, which is, I mean, I talk too much, but I try to listen. I shut up and I listen to my members, to players, to those that know better than me, listen to my team. I mean, I got to work for the man that created the sports marketing business, Mark McCormack, he was a genius. Teddy Forsman bought the business after Mark died, and he taught us how to be businessmen. I then got to work for Ari Emanuel, who's a genius. I mean, and took the business in an innovative way that you'd never believe.

57:30I have people around me on committees that I have Richard Scudamore who ran the English Premier League. He advises on the Ryder Cup. Ian Ritchie, who did Wimbledon and the RFU. You've got people who, they just know so much more. And then surround yourself, not only with people who you can listen to, but also kind of empower a team, which is a mixture of those who've got experience, but also a lot of people who come with fresh thinking. because, you know, when it comes to talking about tech and innovation and how our content, you almost ban anyone who's over 30 from the room. I certainly shouldn't be allowed to say.

58:05You know, they don't want to know that. But bring in people and have that. You know the old adage, and I remember Mark saying it to me, hire people who you think are better than you. And it's tough to do, but if you do it, it works. It really does. But it's also something that I did learn from someone, which I found really interesting. It's kind of one of the best lessons I was ever given along the way, which was human nature is such we could all sit here and go what am I like at this what am I like at that whatever else mark yourself out of 10 and I'm you know most of mine are pretty low but you're going to go it's threes or fours out of 10 and maybe I've got a six or a seven somewhere human nature is go work really hard improve your three to four and I remember someone saying don't do that someone else will do that better for you take your seven to a 10 and it is recognizing what you can bring and what you can't bring.

58:53And doing that has really helped. What is your 10? I think the fact that I've done as long as I have in the sport means that I have got experience and knowledge, which will really help. We have got a bunch of people coming in in very senior positions in the sport of golf who are new to golf. And that's a really good thing because they come with fresh thinking, experience from other areas. It's really healthy. Someone like a Mark Darbin who's come into the RNA, who I think will do a wonderful job, really like working with him. And he brings ideas and thinking that I wouldn't have. I have a ton of experience.

59:23Put those two together. Internally, I've got people. I can use that knowledge a little bit, but I think the best and the biggest experience I've had, because I was never always a great delegator. In the role I now have, I have to be. And I'm lucky enough to have and have brought in people who are fantastic. So where I'm not a 10, I've got people who are 10s. So when you look at that first tee, I'll be looking at it going, how much have you been directly responsible for? very little but we've got all the right people in the right places to make that and every other event we do brilliant what luke does he's built an unbelievable team around him and he listens and learns and makes his decisions that's a great mantra to go with you know build the best team you can possibly have and let them loose empower them don't get in the way guide with a little bit of experience and then aim for the highest we have to put on the best events we possibly can if you go to a national open that's got to be the greatest event that's ever been played in that country our big signature events our rolexes have to be perfect and the rider cup's got to be the best what do the 400 members most want from you that is most hard to supply or to do i mean it's it's too easy to say that your job is only to make them earn as much prize money as they can but they deserve that and that's what i should work towards but they're not just about that these guys work really hard to show their talent in front of as many as they can, both on screen but at tournaments.

1:00:54They want to play in tournaments that have huge crowds, strong fields, people roaring them on. They want their tour that they're really proud to have got onto to be the best tour it can be. And for sure, I sometimes ask them to travel long distances and go from here to here to here. And we try and coordinate the schedule. I've got a team who are brilliant at trying to put it into the swings. We'll have a Far Eastern here and we'll have a Middle Eastern here and European here. But even so, you ask them to travel. But as long as they know when they get there, everything will be done in a really professional way.

1:01:27And we don't get it right the whole time. In fact, we get it wrong a lot of the time. But we'll listen and learn and improve. As long as they turn up feeling like they're playing in a really important tournament with a wonderful history, the right sort of prize money, they're looked after properly, they've got the range to go practice on all the right facilities as a support team that allow them to play at their very best then where you go guys we've given you your platform now go be brilliant and generally when you build the right platform they are because if you look at how some of the events we've had the drama that's unfolding i mean augusta was as you say exhausting the rider cup in every time that event even if it isn't actually that close it feels that close the last one you meant a Rome you know we were like oh this is ours guaranteed we'd smashed them the first few days correct and actually the board was very red oh you would end up looking at them and going well if Fleetwood doesn't win that there's five games below it which are red suddenly this could get down to one of the final two totally right I mean they had clean sweep on on Friday Luke wanted a fast start boy did he get one they didn't get a point and you know until whenever it was that you looked at it and you go, well, how can we not win?

1:02:41But it always does. Incredibly tense. I had come out and I was thinking, I have to be impartial. All that matters is it's a wonderful event, but wouldn't it be nice if you're at one? Wouldn't it be nice for Luke and the team? And I was standing somewhere between 16 green and 17 T. And I suddenly realized there was someone else doing the same, but standing on the other side of the T and it was Luke and he's ice cool. I wasn't. And I'm looking at the board like you going, could be Tommy, could be Sepp, could be Shane, could be Bob. But that last point had to come from somewhere. And this is the thing that people underestimate.

1:03:18Winning is really hard. You know, guys compete week in, week out and do brilliantly and finish top fives and top tens. But winning a golf tournament, as Rory showed, as the team showed then, it's really hard. and if you listen to any of the pros who've gone through all these years to give themselves a chance on a Sunday afternoon, I think it was Davis Love said, give ourselves a chance to throw up all over ourselves because they'll miss out they'll mess up but in the end the door will open and they'll walk through but it's hard. But that's why I was so surprised that Ricky gave the putt because there was a putt let's say that we've all missed and every top golfer I'd imagine has missed one of them.

1:03:58It was close but it It wasn't that close. I think Tommy had it for, I mean, it was, he had it for it. Now, if you're standing over that part for the Ryder Cup, knowing that that point is hugely important, you can miss that. But they conceded it, so we won. And they conceded. No, and you're absolutely right. And Ricky, who's a great guy. And as he said, I'd have given it in any other environment. Why wouldn't I give it there? And that's almost, I mean. It's a spirit. For us, there are many magic moments in our history, but the concession in Ryder Cup history is, for me, a moment that defines golf in almost no other way.

1:04:31Jack Nicklaus, I know you'll have heard of, and Tony Jacklin, and they were the two best golfers from America and from the UK, came down the stretch at Birkdale in the Ryder Cup final hole. And it was about three feet from the hole. And Tony needed to make the putt to halve the match. And Jack, and again, as you described, eminently missable, even for someone of the talent of Tony Jacklin, who was a brilliant player. And Jack went up to him, picked up his marker, gave it to him, conceded the putt, and said, Tony, I didn't think you were going to miss it, but I didn't want to give you the chance to.

1:05:06And that showed what a man Jack Nicklaus was, but it also showed you playing the event, playing the sport in the right spirit is utterly unique. And for me, that's a moment we've got to cherish. The concession could only happen in golf, and it could only, I think, happen in the Ryder Cup. So it's very good. If the world of golf players was a stock market, which would you buy when you say buy what do you mean in terms of which would you invest in and hold so you could say rory it's going to be an expansive buy price but what he's going to do to transform the game is you need probably an abc you need an emerging kind of obvious but yeah i mean it'd be hard not to look at him right now because i think he's just freed himself up with what he's achieved to play with the the freedom that someone with his talent could be really dangerous.

1:05:54I mean, what I think you would do, because people look at it and you go, we've got great characters in the game of golf. But what's really interesting is golf recycles and regenerates itself really quickly. So you'll be looking at a player, someone like a Scotty Scheffler, who suddenly comes out and from almost nowhere, and he's suddenly world number one, and he's a dominant world number one. You've got guys who are amateurs who are winning, Nick Dunlop in the States, winning as an amateur. So what you would do with your canny investment is you would go and say, right, where is there coming an enormously talented young player, either emerging from the US college system, from the European amateur world, or globally, probably from one of those emerging nations.

1:06:37If someone were to emerge with the talent and charisma of a Tiger or a Rory from, say, India or China, that could be transformational. because we take tournaments to those countries and it needs two things. It needs the global superstar to attract the attention and everyone goes, oh, wow, it's a big event. But what the locals want to see is also their local heroes. You need a Virat Kohli for golf. Well, you do. You need a Virat Kohli, but Virat Kohli's kind of done it all. What you actually want is Virat Kohli when he's 16. Totally. It's the kid from IPL. Oh, the 14-year-old. Unbelievable. How extraordinary was that?

1:07:16I mean, I love my cricket. I watched that wide-eyed. I want him. I want his brother. I'm buying Oberg, by the way. If I'm looking at one now, I'm like, I just... He's showing extreme knowledge of the game because I completely agree. I'm buying Matteo Manassaro. Oh, well, now, Matteo is a wonderful story. So I've got to tell you that because Ludwig is extraordinary. Generational talent. Luke was studying him. And he emerges as a guy who's an amateur. He's never played a major. And he's suddenly in the Ryder Cup team. And he's beating some of the best players in the world by master. They literally made Scottish Heffler cry.

1:07:46Absolutely. And all credit to Scotty for doing that. What Victor and Ludwig did was amazing. So either of those. But Matteo is a wonderful story. I signed him as what I thought was the most gifted 15-year-old. He played with Tom Watson in the tournament, which Tom nearly won, which would have been one of the greatest stories, a 60-year-old winning. Matteo, 15, by the time he was 19, he'd won more tournaments at that age than Tiger and Rory put together. He was going to be the biggest star in the world. He then encountered what all golfers can have, which was a complete loss of form. And he didn't just go off a bit.

1:08:19I mean, he disappeared for nearly a decade. He had the mental fortitude to fight his way back, to graft. And he comes back and he starts winning on what was then the Challenge Tour. Then he won on our Tour. He graduated and won a card to the PGA Tour. He's now playing on the PGA Tour. In terms of inspiring stories of having the resilience to fight through adversity and come back and play at the highest level. the teaming of Ludwig and Matteo together would be magic I would love to have him on the show that would be an amazing guest and he's an utterly delightful man you'd get a great can I be blunt did he make a lot of money very early because a lot of people just think won a load of trophies fine he's great do you make a lot of money in this?

1:09:07he did because sponsorship rewards talent it really rewards young talent coming from a different market in a young Italian It was perfect. Good looking, articulate. He had it all. And he did make money early on, but not enough to sustain him through tough times. I mean, he's got through that through strength. Wonderful wife, family got him through it. But at the end of the day, you know, was that the motivating factor? But he won our big event at Wentworth at 19. You don't normally do that. He wants his name back on those trophies. And you can see that that's the motivating factor. and if you can imagine you've gone from that peak being talked about as the next big thing to suddenly struggling to make the cut on an Alps tour event, that's tough.

1:09:49And at no moment did he lose his charm and his cheeriness and positivity. I'm sure he did. I'm sure he went home and kicked the proverbial cat, but you never saw it. And that's why I think he's come back. But this is where golf are really good because it doesn't matter. You can do that. Mateo can have a decade away from the very top. He's still a young man. So he's got all the time in golf to achieve that and you can do the same. Do you worry with the agent background of distractions and losing focus and mindset with the commercial success that comes? Manassero suddenly gets very hot. You can put him in every BA, every advert.

1:10:25Does it mess with your mind a little bit? It's such a good question. And it's the thing you sit there as an agent doing because what your job is then, very different from it is now. Then my job was he can sort out how good he is at golf. He'll work on it himself. He'll work with his coaches. My job is to make sure I maximize commercially that talent. But you want to do it in a compatible way. So don't go, hey, you're playing really well. Let's change your clubs. You wouldn't do that. You might change the shirts you wear. You might change the logos that are on those shirts. That doesn't affect how you play.

1:10:56So you have to do it in a considerate way. There have been occasions where I think athletes in different areas have been overexploited. And, you know, I've got a week off. Oh, no, I haven't. I've got three photo shoots. When I need to, downtime, practice, decompress, whatever. Getting the balance right is the job of any agent. And I think probably golf's changed a little bit. You can make a lot off course doing things right that don't involve having to make fast time commitments. Look what Rory's done. He's a very, very canny businessman and investor. You can find ways of doing it. If you can stay fit and well and mentally strong and keep working on your game, the rewards that can be earned in prize money around the world are pretty good.

1:11:43On reflection, you don't need to say names. Did you ever, not over, over, it sounds awful, but overfill, over commit one of your talents? And what did you learn from that? I think the one thing I could know with absolute knowledge is that I might share as much advice and counsel as I possibly could to my clients. They mainly ignored it. So in the end, my gig was always, this is your decision. I'm going to present you with the opportunity and no is absolutely fine. And if you want my advice to do it or not, I'll tell you. But at the end of the day, it's in your name. It's your time. You decide.

1:12:18I don't feel, as I look back, there were times when I'd driven people to overdo it. Because in golf, again, it's a long career. You're not going to say do it because you might be gone in five minutes. You know you've got a 30, 40-year career. if you nurture it. Arnie was the perfect example. Tiger will be. Rory will be. So I don't think I did that. I think there were players who probably saw all these opportunities, leapt at them, and I might well have probably maybe should have stepped in again. Are you sure? I've spent six months working on a deal. Maybe I should have said, ignore that and say no.

1:12:52And there are sure there are moments you look back, I don't think of any specifics. But in the end of the day, the way top golfers get really good is by not blaming. If they've got a reason to, oh, it was raining. Oh, caddy gave me a bad yardage. You do stuff like that. You've got to own it. We all know the mistakes we make. Own them. The players have to, hey, I messed up that hole. Move on. I can do brilliantly on the next one. Rory showed it in Augusta. Incredible. He played some of the greatest shots I've ever seen and some shots that I suspect he wouldn't say were his greatest. But what did he do?

1:13:23He bounced back. And that's the extraordinary ability. It's that ability to come back from something that's been bad, whether it's a shot or a hole or a tournament, and then come back and play your best. And I think that's what defines the really great players. Totally agree. Great people in life. Great people. I totally agree. Come back, bounce back. You may have completely messed up, but there's a way back. It's the Roger Federer speech. Did you see it? You know, I've won 54 % of points, but I've won 81 % of matches. He's like, well, I've lost as much as I won, but in those moments that mattered, I just was able to find that level.

1:13:58And totally right. Inspiring man. Guess what his new sport is? Golf. There you go. Should we do a quick fire? Yeah. You go first. Player that you'd most want standing over a 10-foot part to win the Ryder Cup for Europe. Oh, so hard. I think purely because he'd have willed it into the hole, it would be a real fight between Seve and Oli. But in the end of the day, I'd probably have to say Seve. Who did you not work with in your agent life that you would most like to have worked with? When I started at IMG, Mark McCormack, who was a very clever man, had not only signed the big three, but he'd signed an entire generation of golfers who all born within a year of each other.

1:14:37And they defined the sport for decades. And that was Sinek Faldo, Wuzi, Bernard Langer, Sandy and Seve. Those five Europeans and Greg Norman and Nicky Price of Zimbabwe. Those seven players all born within a year of each other were incredibly impressive. And I think we worked with all of them as clients except Seve. And for me, you talk about charisma and, you know, Tiger, extraordinary charisma, Arnie, Jack, Rory, others. But when Seve walked into a room, everyone knew. And he was, I think, what was it? I mean, he was dashingly good looking. He played golf in a way you couldn't believe. You look at the European players and you listen to the other guys in that big five.

1:15:20the Knicks the Sandys Bernard they talk about Seve in reverential trends and it's not just because we've lost him but he played in this unbelievably cavalier he was the heartbeat of the European team so I would have loved to have had the chance to work with him Mark would have loved to work with him but we didn't quite make it happen How do you choose a Ryder Cup captain? Well we have a very distinct approach which means it isn't down to one individual so I want to listen to past players I want to listen to current players I want to listen to past captains. I want to listen to my Ryder Cup committee.

1:15:53I want to listen to the Ryder Cup board. I want to listen to my own board. Listen to other people and who do they think. And it's fascinating to see. Now, the players made it kind of easy last time because they all stood around Luke at the prize giving in Rome and started chanting two more years. So the question was, would Luke go again? Because, as you know, it's normally been do it once and move on. And it's a long time since I think it's back to Bernard Gallagher, since someone's done a home and away. But they wanted Luke. I consulted my stakeholder group. But the truth is, it was listening to all of that.

1:16:27And in that instance, it became very easy. It was generally a question of, would he go again? Because he had just done something truly extraordinary. I mean, the European team got really taken down in Whistling Straits in 2020. I mean, they got beaten badly. And some of the US team, perhaps unwisely, I think had said, we can't lose this for a decade. And they're right in the sense that they had the most extraordinary talent in that team. and what Luke did in one match is turn it round and he sent out the Europeans believing they would win and they did. Even selecting someone like Oberg as you said who's never played a major to have the confidence to have that in your 12 and put the person in and not just as a golfer but also as a man able to handle that pressure.

1:17:04He knew he could handle it and you looked at it and you said well what do you do with a Ludwig well he's the young buck what do you do you send him out with the old wily old pro like he did you know Justin Rose and Bob McIntyre brilliant what do you do you send him out with Victor Hovland who's, you know, like six months older than him and a veteran. I mean, and those two won by the biggest margin ever. Scandi power. It was Scandi power, but it was brilliant leadership. And that's because you've got a guy who took it so seriously. I mean, Luke lives, eats, breathes, reads, speaks to people. He communicates every week with his team.

1:17:40And I get the chance to read it. And it's astonishing. Luke is really impressive. And as I always said, doesn't always say the most, but what he says, you've got to listen to. Which player do you think leverages that brand the best? In the past, I think Arnie set an example that it would be tough to follow. I mean, he endorsed everything, endorsed everything. He was brilliant. He made every sponsor feel very special. Tiger, because Tiger was the, is probably the greatest player there's ever been, has also, I mean, that brand you cannot ignore. And it's handy. He's called Tiger and he's brilliant and he's cool and all of those things.

1:18:19Right now, I would say that Rory, I really do. I think Rory is very, very clever. It is not just about the brands he endorses. He is much more an investor. It's the brands that he likes to support and you would be surprised by the number of things that he's supported. He has a brilliant team around him. He himself has some great insights. He builds relationships. Everything we do as a tour is about building relationships 50 years of relationships around the world if people trust you then you can go and do things tournaments whatever rory does the same he works with amazing brands amazing people and he as a result i think his brand will just grow and grow right last one dream four ball you're one of the players you have three slots right i don't think he played but i've got to have had muhammad ali in a group i think sean connery definitely did and of course Bond, how could you not play with him?

1:19:13And a recent addition, I don't know, I have to say, having met him at Augusta, I quite like the thought of playing with Michael McIntyre. I think he plays in the way that we like, which is a lot of laughter and not quite sure where the ball's going to go. So that mirrors my golf. Muhammad Ali, Sean Connery and Michael McIntyre. Strong, strong four ball. Excellent. Thank you. Upset's not being included, but fine. Yeah, no, but it's in time. I haven't seen your swing or your stand-up abilities. Don't worry, I'm playing with Monty, so And so you should do, and Luke will be taking a look, I'm sure.

1:19:45Guy, this has been so much fun. Thank you. I really enjoyed that. That was very good. Loved it. Thank you. Thank you so much to Guy for coming in and talking us through the incredible business of golf in Europe and beyond. As he mentioned at the beginning, we reached out desperate for him to be one of the people that we could speak to to break our golfing duck on the show, which at over 70 shows is quite incredible. But I'm so pleased it was him that we were able to have this conversation with. And it was a fascinating insight to be able to get to grips with what it's like running these competitions, what it's like trying to retain the top talent while there's so much competition for the best players to go and compete in tournaments.

1:20:23And of course, what it's really like operating in and being a part of the Ryder Cup setup. To any of you that are golf fans, you'll know how special that is. For those of you that may not be massive golf fans, I couldn't recommend watching it more when it comes around in September. It truly is something that is completely special and unique in sports. I hope this is something that we'll be able to continue talking about over the coming months as we look to bring you more guests from the world of golf, from the players' side as well as from the executive side. And I'd love to hear from you about anything you'd like to know to build on the conversation that we've just had.

1:20:58Of which, of course, there is now more bonus content on our Patreon, which if you don't know about, you can find in the links below. But if you want to see more from today's show, you can do so by going to YouTube as well and typing in business of sport. But before we leave you, this is digital fitness coaching at its peak. I'm so excited for us to partner with Runner, a relationship that's going to get us all up and out there, me included, pacing the streets, woodlands, parks, beachfronts, but backed up by elite level insight and accessibility. This is the kind of coaching that used to be reserved for the pros.

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