James Haskell | “They Build You Up. Then They Crush You”: From Rugby to Reality (Ep136)

33:25How much did they pay? I can't remember what it was, but it was more up near 300 and something, maybe more. Okay, so I'm just trying to understand. I basically did not earn enough money to stop working. And the only time I started earning was when I was about 20, 24, 25. And I'd started when I was 17. So the first thing I didn't have, then I went to Stade Francais. Then I went for 20 grand to, well 20 ,000 Kiwi or something to play for the high-enders because I wanted to play. So that was just, I took a pint. Then I went to Japan. Japan, I don't know what, I can't remember what my salary was, but in terms of the whole package was maybe north of 500 in terms of all that kind of stuff.

34:09But again, the cost of living over there is mad. Exchange rates, housing. So that was quite tricky. Then I came back to WOS on a good pay package. and then the last year my season at Northampton I finished on 100 grand but obviously that's before tax so whatever that was less and obviously I only managed to play five games and I got injured then you have to start from scratch and in comparison to football players who were earning that a week Sorry, can I just ask that that's like the salary from the club is there a salary from the England team? Yes, yes and then also what does the commercial set like?

34:44because you're one of the most known players. Yeah, my commercial, I mean, look, you know, I've had more agents than the FBI, which is, you know, not, I think, unfortunately, it's more, what rugby agents, or did, back in the day, bear in mind, this is a while ago, was they were interested in your playing contract, guaranteed money. The commercial side was, there was no commercial side in rugby, really, unless you were, Lawrence Lallio maybe did an advert for McDonald's and he had Nike sponsorship, you're Johnny Wilkins, and some of these people. there really wasn't that that massive amounts of money to be earned boot deals you just didn't move the needle for these companies you know you know why why would do what rugby players people in rugby think rugby is a great thing we're a third tier sport really in comparison to everything yes we're a global sport some countries south africa love it france actually tv rights and bits and payments now are right up there england they say premiership stuff is is doing better you know i think it's there's lots of financial struggles you know the last time i I was involved in a financial review.

35:44I wrote a foreword for it, two of them. Ten of the premiership teams out of ten were losing money. The international game, yes, you get paid. You got paid well for England. But again, when you looked at the large amount of commercial stuff we had to do, because when you talk about money, what everybody says is, I'd play for free for England. I would do all this kind of stuff. But when everyone else has got their hand out and they're clearing up with, you know, you have three media days and you're doing a dove campaign at Waterloo Station. you are doing an advert for O2 you are doing all this kind of stuff the money's they're paying money for that where's it going they're using our image our name our stuff so they'd ask you to do that yeah we do that but you'd have to do it as a player you'd have to do it you have to do it yeah your contract your EPS crew had to do it how much they pay you for but it didn't so sometimes you get appearances you maybe get two grand to do an appearance like that but then to be on campaigns and stuff like this they've now renegotiated all that contract which I haven't been involved in because the RPA used to negotiate the EPS contract, where it's called England Players, England Professional, something like that, whatever it means.

36:48But I was involved in it on one of the years. And I sat down, read this thing through and went, well, this is bollocks. I said, this isn't right, this isn't right, this isn't right. Went back to the Arpa and they were, oh, no, we can't challenge this. And I said, I said, we're the power. We said, you know, we've got to go on strike. Oh, no, no, you can't do that. We can maybe negotiate this. I said, well, it's not negotiation, is it? It's a little bit of a friends, boys club chat. We'll try to sort it out. Anyway, the current player squad have fired the RPA as their negotiators, set up a completely rival thing and changed the whole dynamic in terms of fees, media exposure.

37:22You were never allowed. So if I was sponsored by Under Armour, you were never allowed to post anything about Under Armour during England time. You were never allowed to do anything commercials, any video, anything. So all the other sports teams that do all this stuff, you were no personal endorsements to be, so you had no value to a brand. So I played for England and England time you couldn't do anything about it.

37:41James Haskell:Yeah, they'd want you, obviously. But for example, if I was sponsored by Adidas I'd have to do a night campaign. And Adidas well what are we doing? So it just, the whole thing was flawed in rugby really. And it was kind of very odd and it was just, you know, the generations of you know, I remember Davey 2007 2007 to 2015 were team first humble don't ask don't fight don't question do as you're told take the money this is it don't worry about this you know because the salary got I think you used to get 25 grand a game for England some of it is image rights some of it was um playing contract and the image rights would be some of the money that you would get used for that but not to the level not when you look at what they were doing so I don't want to misrepresent it we would get some money for doing those dove things or whatever brand it was and it would go into image rights that's how you could invoice you get invoiced for a company and also get paid PAYE but the value of what the image rights were in comparison to what they were making was was poles apart okay so a player's underpaid or is your salary our player salaries even up to now is it just a symptom of the fact that the club's rugby isn't making enough money yeah that's the truth so so I am never I'm not one of these bitter old rugby players that doesn't want people to earn I think you should I'm mercenary in lots of areas I love money I love working hard I work very hard to make money do I think players should earn more money?

39:08yes is there more money in the game? no and that's the biggest problem you know so you know that's the hard part is rugby players have been traditionally underpaid but there isn't any money to pay them and what clubs have done premiership clubs in particular have tried to pay money with money they never recoup. And that's the problem. It is a business model that always loses. I think they lost like 30, they lose 35 million. You need to check the data collectively. I don't know exactly. It's about that. It's about 35 million quid. What business model is that? If you went to investors, I think...

39:39Well, it's only finance. Yeah, I think the guys who, the private equity company... CBC. CBC came in and they just have not, again, I'm not, allegedly, have not been able to leverage or make the money out because the TV rights have diminished with England badly for a number of years, then they might have gone up. The French TV rights have gone up. All these players that are playing a spectacular game on the field that are having much more commercial interest and impact, it does not lead to any income coming in. And so the point is, that's why they're worried about players going to France. But you can't have that many foreign players in France.

40:10And you've got homegrown talent. So, you know, letting someone like Jack Willis, who would never have left WOS, who would always have been traditionally underpaid, go to Toulouse, become an incredible player, one of the best number sevens in the world, working with the best players in the world, finally earning what he wants, but not allowing him to play for England off the fear that it's going to create an exodus is just the biggest blow of bollocks in the history of the world. You are hamstringing your international team because you're worried that your business model in the UK that doesn't work, is proven not to work, will suddenly fall apart, which is not true.

40:39James Haskell:Have you challenged these? I challenge it all the time. When no one listens to me, I'm like, you know. I mean, obviously with the show, you've got a big platform as well. So we both did a chat with Bill Sweeney, both of our shows, right? Just after you had the whole discussion. And, you know, when you get those executives in the sport, I actually, to be fair, on both charts, I thought he did a good job of talking through it and explaining the circumstance. But within rugby, generally what I find is the governance, basically most of them, they just don't have any real power. Because there's just so many different actors in here.

41:07They don't have any real powers. But what they have with rugby is it is, it was a game that turned professional that no one was sure what that meant because they'd never done professional. For most part, it's a business run by people that are just good guys, good men and women in that love rugby. The commercial footprint isn't leveraged. It's very disparate. It's a global sport that is not conjoined. You've got loads of different unions, loads of different interests, loads of imbalance in those interests. Some people get more voting rights, others don't. They don't know how to commercialise things.

41:37You get people, I mean, I remember we had a guy at Wask come in and they're like, oh, you know, I've just come from F1. I'm ahead of your commercial. I was like, well, you're shit. Why would you come from F1, the biggest commercial entity in sport, and come to rugby? You obviously didn't do very well there because there's no way that's what i think you know when people say they go everyone's really excited i'm like mate your cvs that's the reverse of your cv like that i wouldn't admit you came from f1 say you came from like hamble that would be that would be a stepper and so you had all this kind of stuff where you germans i just think it's like you it's all been it's all people protecting their own interests there isn't so what would you do oh well if i were to say hey here's a blank cameras what would you do well so i said i said this to bill swing again look one of my things about myself is i have i have an opinion and i think in the world of social media when you have debates about politics or whatever you've got to have the stats you've got to have the details you've got to have the information some of this is um anecdotal some of this so people need to fact check what i'm saying i haven't turned up here prepared with with notes but but for example with the rfu bill sweden his own words you have an amateur board you have um an amateur side of rugby which is important in terms of club rugby and people and teaching you lessons in life and it's a great part of your rugby journey it actually isn't relevant to the top level of the game it's not because those players that that feed it they will find their way there anyway clubs now have all these academy systems you don't need a strong amateur game like the nfl nfl doesn't have a strong amateur game it's a complete franchise operation they're scouting people from school that's what's focused you don't need club club nfl games to to be successful you also can't have people who are amateurs talking about professional sport they have no understanding the finances no understanding the commercial thing they're all about 60 years old they don't understand about social media they don't understand about um the modern zeitgeist of what's happening so i would get rid of anyone that amateur and i'd run it like a business i would run it like a blue chip top level company i would have no amateurs involved i get rid of all these amateur boards She's basically saying the RFU council.

43:41Gone. Gone. Absolutely. I don't have no council. I don't need you. What are you talking about? Everyone is a business. We are here to make money and build success. We don't need you. Now, they asked them the other day to vote, to have changes. Shock horror. They didn't vote for themselves to lose their own jobs, did they? So what's the point? You would never vote to take your own lunch away. Cake or death. Cake or death. Cake or death. Cake. We've run out of cake.

44:02James Haskell:And that's the thing. Kill you with a tray. Yeah. This tray's wet. This tray's wet. This tray's wet. That guy is in a fucking rainforest. Do you know Jeff Vader? Jeff, yeah. That's my final face here. I love that. Yeah, yeah. My name's Jeff. Can I have a note photograph? You know Jeff Vader? Yes. No. I'm killing you with a thought. I don't need a train. But the thing with that is - People are going to be like - I know. It's called Eddie Izzard Lego Death Star. Yeah. But the thing with it is that what people have to do is the symptom of rugby, of what I've found, is a lot of clubs would promote players because they were good players with no understanding of experience of high-level coaching bits and pieces, and then going into business areas and going into commercial areas.

44:44You have to be good at those things. So that's an issue. I think as well as rugby, it has always been low level in terms of campaigns and ads and pays and commercial stuff because it doesn't know what it is, rugby union, really. It's scared of its own shadow. It has traditionally been a public school sport. so with that you have the fear of you know rocking the boat you know whenever we did media days there'd always be three or four people in polos don't say this do this read the notes don't say you want personality you can't control it it was like the death star i joked about the rfub being the death star it's like you know that you you they come down and don't don't go against the word but you you want that raw emotion you want people to say things you want people to get things wrong look at the look at the ufc now dana white doesn't condone i'm not saying he's a good map but it doesn't condone all these things.

45:31But you need personality. You want to have that. It's a battle. It's a physical, attritional battle. And so you need to embrace that instead of going, oh, you know, we're going to make it more safe. It's like you can't make a contact sport more safe. What you can do is look after the players better, get better medical care, take the power out of the clubs and physios' hands, get proper medical doctors, play less games, know how to promote the games, let players have personalities, get rid of all the amateur interactions, stop all this faffing around, run it like a business, get rid of all these side tournaments that no one cares about, put a global league in place, start embracing touring other countries and places, get everything unified under one roof and build it and go from there.

46:15And also create heroes for young men and women to follow. And like I think the Red Roses, for example, won a World Cup, but a tournament I think lost millions because people just don't, it doesn't have that viewership. Now, are they amazing athletes? Are they incredibly talented? Is it amazing spectacle? Yeah. Does it have the reach? No, not at the moment. And I think rugby, unfortunately, suffers from its arrogance where it thinks it is the shit when actually it's not. And I think you've got to understand that, that it needs a complete overhaul. Now, what will happen with, it will just tear itself apart and there's loads of rival leagues and bits and pieces going around.

46:52But I just don't... Guys, it doesn't need an R360. Yes, it does. You think it does? I think, well, listen, Tins has got so much criticism for what he did. I wasn't involved with it. I mean, so originally the guys who did Arthur came to me first before Tittenwright and said we had to have a conversation. They told me all about it. They said they'd done this market review and research and everything else around rugby. And they were like, you know, it's got a bigger footprint than the NFL. The NFL makes X amount of billions per thing. rugby as a whole makes something like, you know, less money, but globally it could make something similar.

47:28If you joined it all up, join the unions, join the clubs, join the players, there's a big footprint there. If you could make the match day experiences and endorse the heroes and everything else like that, that was great. Things like the international game is growing, but very small. The women's game is growing, but not to a level that's ever going to financially make it sustainable at the moment. It needs something to come in with fresh eyes and fresh business acumen who understand how to make it work. Now, you know, you would have said something like live golf and those kind of stuff, but they've lost billions doing it their way.

47:57And they're going to now go back the other way, potentially with the PGA and all those kind of people didn't take the money. Football, Saudi football, you've seen those players go across. I don't know whether that makes money or whatever. My biggest issue with stuff in rugby is every time something has started afresh, Rugby X, the different sevens things, R360, they never have enough money to make it legitimately worth doing. and the biggest hindrance is financial to all this stuff.

48:23James Haskell:So 360 needed Live Golf money, right? But the problem with Live Golf money is that as we've just seen, eventually you have to actually turn it into some form of business. And what I think personally, maybe wrong, you have to have some form of heritage rooted in these things. So I always say we Live Golf, right? Actually, the better thing for Saudi to have done would have been to put a load of cash behind the European tour. Because you have part of the Ryder Cup, you have loads of historic tournaments in here. I could grow up going, I idolised Seve Ballesteros and I could still win the same trophies he won.

48:49James Haskell:but they're pumping in 200 million to raise all prize money which means competing with the PGA Tour oh shit now I'm making a decision I can play in Europe or America I can make the same amount of money could the same amount of money that you would take to actually make R360 work because if you need 200 plus players on your roster you're going to play them each a million a year that's 200 million a year just on salaries let alone Stadia let alone marketing all of that personnel right you're getting up to 400-500 million if you could do that with existing IP then you've got a real opportunity you know URC right is that the right thing who knows but the point is look at the prem look at this stuff now and Simon's really chuffed right with all of the work around pro rugby closing it up yeah and like I said Simon Massa I really like him you know we've had conversations I think you know good bad rugby is often sometimes seen by these people as negative I'm not I love the game I'm talking about my own experiences of work and I see my own frustrations with rugby doing rugby stuff the rugby not rugby championship whatever that the autumn nations series we just had nations championship whatever it's called is they talk about player welfare, sustainability, not too many games, creating a spectacle.

49:54They just did more air miles than anywhere else. They just basically put player welfare, playing back-to-back games in multiple different countries. It just,

50:03James Haskell:it's rugby doing... 25 ,000 miles in those three weeks. But it's basically rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic to seem to do something. It's like the band's still playing as everything's sinking. Look at this new thing. Now, did it move the needle at tournament? I don't know. Did anyone care? I'm sorry, it's a whole problem. There's just not enough. Rugby is a product and there are not enough customers who are not spending enough money to make it a good business. That's true. There is your problem. Yeah, but I think your point about if you could, so when, and again, Simon's worked very hard with his agreement with the clubs because what you've got to remember about the clubs is there used to be 12 owners, there's 10 owners now with 10 different vested interests, different levels of income.

50:44You know, really in a sports thing, you need to be a billionaire, really, particularly in rugby for the amount of money you lose. So the Bristol guy, you know, the Bath guy, now with James Dyson's joined in as well, you know, they've got big money. They can write stuff off. They own property. They're smart. A lot of these other clubs, these owners, you know, when you're suddenly seeing you're losing 10 million a year and stuff like that and there isn't... And you're worth 100, let's say. Yeah. Suddenly it's like shit. Ah, there isn't 10 million a year. We had some guys who had 35, you know, a guy that's got 25 million and he's invested in a rugby club and you're seeing that money and you're like, how am I ever going to get this back?

51:15I think if you could put money into each one of those clubs and build existing clubs into franchises, but the owners, there's meetings where they've sat down and someone's come up with a massive sponsorship deal. We'd like to get you all on board with this sponsor premiership. Something to say no.

51:30James Haskell:CBC hopes and dreams. CBC's money, they came at the worst time because it came when COVID came. It was basically used to protect those clubs from going out of business and then it's gone. Did CBC just write that off? I don't know what they do with that. But again, I don't want to say, I'm happy for you guys can deal with the comments but I'm talking about what I've heard what I remember what I've seen when I say I care about rugby and I love it I want it to do better do I think I'd have an opinion on helping it doesn't keep me awake at night no I'll be honest with you and I want to say that I think the product on the field is unbelievable I think the way the game is going is great I think the the stuff around concussion injury and the interference of the bunker and bits and pieces I think is detrimental I don't think it needs to be I think the fact they've taken it back to three or four plays to score a try.

52:13I think it's bollocks. I think it should be one phase. If you cheat, that's sport. That's what happens. I don't think that's a massive issue. I think that rugby has lots of amazing stories. I think the premiership rugby in terms of the rebranded interest and stuff is great. But for me, it still needs to fundamentally change. But you're not going to get 10 owners to agree. And that's why you want to have, if you could restructure it and take the existing clubs with all their heritage, all their stuff, make them into super franchises and do it without having to go and reset up something else, that's great.

52:44Like Sevens is a great example. Sevens, it was the best still version of Fifteens. Short games, done in two days, understand what you're seeing, playing. There isn't massive malls and line out, you know, like sort of complicated stuff that people don't understand. The barrier for entry was easy to understand. It showcased the best tackles, the best footwork, end-to-end stuff. You could build an entertainment business around it. you travel to different parts of the world yet we managed to turn that from a three million loss into a 20 million loss by trying to become their own um event organizers as well as tournament people that's now fallen apart no one knows who any of these sevens players are we've lost all the superstars it used to be a training ground for players to go into 15s because your core skills are exposed someone taking sevens and filling that with superstars and taking it to a f1 roadshow it would be much much better because i don't think a lot of fans understand what they're watching now.

53:37By a sports group, Tom Boer. Yeah, I mean, I think so. Old sevens, right? We're about to see. Yeah, and I think, you know, for me that's an issue because as well, you know, rugby, people, again, people in rugby think everyone knows what they're talking about. How can a game in comparison to say football and again, barrier entry is, you know, two jumpers and goalposts for a football, easy. Everyone does it all over the world. Rugby, posts, field, kit. It's more complicated. Sevens, easier to do, right, really. And also, people don't understand what they're watching when they're watching 15s. How can you go to a game that can be like 45-40, epic big hits, big carries, moments, footwork, skill, and watch it and not really understand what's going on but had a good day, but then want to go back and watch 0-0 in football?

54:22Because that's what people would rather do. Because they're different sports, I know, but I don't understand. And a lot of people come to it and go, I love it, but I don't know what the hell I'm watching. What does this mean? What does that mean? Why have we had a 10-minute break? What's happened here? I see it all the time. and because if you didn't come from a public school or a school that plays it and less schools are playing it now than ever because of medical safety, access to equipment, I don't know what you do. So then that's why... I'm ready for my hatred in the comments. In finance, you have, you know, you buy a stock or you short it.

54:51Yeah. Rugby is the biggest short in fucking history. It's such a short. There's the physical damage and then you've got the most important thing, which is the competitive threat. With every paddle tournament that rises and gets a lot of notoriety, F1 rising. just so your budget for attention is being consumed elsewhere. And rugby is just diminishing. Your budget, when you say budget for attention, it's great. It's how you're actually doing it. So how can you have... An England team that have had success in the past or England player and walk down the street. And how many people do you think would be able to name one or two players in the current England squad?

55:28I think you'd struggle, if I'm honest. Depending on where you went. You know, if you went to Berkshire, maybe. Other places, no. How can you have that where we don't have these heroes? I don't even know. But I actually blame them as well in the way that you guys are phenomenal specimen. God, it's made for shorts. I think there's a load of guys who'd love to see inside weight routines inside training routines in term what do what I eat in a day fuck me if a fitness trainer gets a million views on what I eat in a day I'd love to see what's in yours but if you ever want to know that okay so because I don't want to bash it unless I said the product the players the people I love that they're paid better now some of the bigger players which is good I think you get guys, sometimes all blacks go to Japan for$1.2 million.

56:10I think there are guys that, you know, De Point and Toulouse is probably up there. You know, Maro, guys like that probably getting paid. It's a good mind for Finn Russell. You know, there are teams playing it. It means it doesn't leave a lot of budget for everybody else. They've lowered the salary cap. Players kick off about it, but there isn't the money to pay you. So it doesn't matter what you think you're worth. Like anything in life, it's what people are prepared to pay for it. It doesn't matter how good you think you are. If people aren't going to pay for it. But I do think with rugby, if you want to understand how rugby does rugby full contact netflix right you had the perfect vehicle so uh f1 before drive to survive was diminishing couldn't access a younger audience drive to five came and they showed the fights the battles the swearing the rule breaks the teamwork the trials the technology the routines the characters the people now in life because of social media it's not just watching the event they want to know what you're like what you're behind the scenes, what your family's like, what kind of parent you are, what you go on holiday, what you drive, what you eat.

57:08That's why at Home of the Furies. It's not just him, it's him and his kids and his wife. That's why they're quarterbacks on Netflix. Can't just do three or four of the best quarterbacks. Everyone wants to know what they're like. What do they do with their missus? How are they at home? What events? What do they drink? What do they go out? That's where the life's going. We want to look behind the curtain now. So against all the odds, rugby had an opportunity with full contact on Netflix. Two, suddenly, with all the other stuff the tennis and everything else that had been developed to make something mega and all we did was squabble about um what were being paid and again you know i don't know when netflix what what the fees were but you know we're not going to do it do it everyone was so worried about cameras in the in the rooms the team a lot of these coaches again don't have social media never done social media don't have media training aren't really interested it's all about the team so they said no can't come in here can't do this don't show them that don't want this that's not right what if they edit me we need an editorial approval and then we do one season i never watched it but it was pretty boring they got a second season they cancelled the second season before the first season even come out the second season even come out and we managed to up the greatest opportunity rugby had to transform its worries because somebody was worried that someone might have changed them see you call someone to see you nt or do something and what rugby forgets is in life, in anything, the silence you leave, the void you leave, people will fill it with opinions and thoughts and everything else.

58:31Show them it. Show them the rawness. I've just watched a video today of Pep Guardiola talking about Kevin De Bruyne and having to let him go. He's on to tears. Rawness. You know, how can you let a player that's done 10 seasons at Man City, you know, scored over 100 goals, 140 assists or whatever he's done and have all this kind of stuff. Then, you know, rugby can't do that. Instead, rugby goes off on side journeys and side quests and you know no one wants to showcase their personality if anyone put their head above the parapets oh humble team first think about the game they wouldn't have the cameras in the change rooms rugby turned the greatest opportunity and balls it up to the point where they cancelled it before the second season even came out and that is all you ever need to know about rugby if you ever want to know what rugby is like is rugby doing rugby getting themselves cancelled boring putting on events that no one watches that no one cares about because they don't know what they're doing okay so tell us about the other stuff that you've done alongside it You've got Good to Bad to Rugby.

59:25James Haskell:You've got also with Good to Bad to Rugby, right? You've done other shows with it. So it's now media business. You do your DJing, producing and stuff as well. You've carved out a lot. DJing and producing. You love it, yeah. I love it. By the end of the year, I have 40 records. So I've been DJing for 14 years. Do you just love it? Yes, it's my favorite thing to do. It's all I want to do. Is it, really? Yeah, it's all I want to do. Really. That's your true passion? True passion, yeah. I mean, so because it's the perfect replacement for playing, you get adulation, you get dopamine hit, you get the performance anxiety you get the preparation you get the travel you get the hard work and you're an individual sportsman standing in front of a crowd and they and if you play the right tunes music has an emotive effect on you so i used it as a tool pre-game and i was the only one in the check in my in my team when i first i was with headphones on now everyone's got headphones on but people used to get off they had headphones on all the time um and i had to i had to have earpods and then to get smaller i'm not earpods like those cabled ones smaller ones i had to have one out so people thought I was listening.

1:00:22You know, I used to have a video iPod. I used to have to put like notes on it because people didn't like me looking in a notebook because all old school now, everyone's watching videos, iPhones, iPods. No one's got, no one doesn't have any headphones on. So I use music as a tool because it has an emotive effect on me. So when you're playing music that you love to people who love it, it's the greatest thing in the world. And you're trying to build tension and you're trying to have a fun and everyone's having a good time. It's the perfect thing. And I'm there like that in the front going, yeah, come on baby, let's go.

1:00:47you know what i mean and so that for me is is amazing it's very hard um transition because people see you as a celebrity dj so don't think you can do it and i like i've applied all the lessons i applied to rugby to this work with some of the best producers best people best engineers i've done five production courses i've done four dj courses i do dj one-on-one lessons i've done that i travel i funded it i've worked around the world to the point where i made music in 2021 by the end of this year i'll have 40 records on some of the biggest labels out there um because it's the same thing, I do everything.

1:01:17Everyone tells me not to do anything. I just go, fuck you, I'll do it. How much does DJ make you a year? About a hundred grand, probably. But maybe, like, but it's not, it's not the biggest thing, you know, I mean, some good, some years, maybe more, some years, maybe less. It's harder, again, the older you get, the less you resonate with kids. That's why the music, you make music, the music become popular to then get booked to do the shows. And you have to become your, all singing, all dancing, kind of, social media manager, producer. I hustle, I send all my records out to people. I follow up.

1:01:45And now, if you want to know an industry that always cries out about unfairness but is the most disorganized shambles of an industry, the dance music industry, there's a reason guys like Mark Knight from Toolroom do really well because he has great business acumen and a great team around us. The reason Simon Dunmerock, the affected, sold his business for great money because there are brands out there that do things properly. When I sign a record now, I send the record to someone. They might not reply for weeks. Come back. They're always going to come down. Tired. Can't do this. Don't reply. don't know some people just never respond you send the music they then send you a form to fill in all your own information do all the work upload your bio upload the photos do everything for them and then they send you back the record with some artwork and i don't know how i'm doing i'm basically doing their job but i don't know how it works it's just it's and then no one ever i had a publishing thing with um a company i won't snag you off but they never registered half my track so i have to go manually register them um you know you you turn up to place the equipment isn't right and it's like it's amazing but it's amazing how good it is and fun it is but it is very much the wild west and it's the hardest thing I do what do you have more bookings for after dinner and speaking yeah speaking speaking so my again so these are the things I do and it sounds self-aggrandising but I've written 8 books that I've done does that make money does that make money yeah yeah well I mean not your kind of money it's always when I'm talking to you it's like you manage a billion fucking pounds like no probably not you wouldn't get out of bed for it but for someone like me who earned you know was earning whatever it was from rugby be yes all right it does you know you know yeah you yeah you'll probably yeah he'd do it maybe not you but we can't all be in the ivory tower of cash can we like do you know what I mean it's just it's it's all relative isn't it they say like a billionaire drops drops a 50 pound note by the time he he bends over to pick it up it's not worth him picking it up yeah but billionaires don't drop 50 pound notes that's why they're billionaires um you know I I I work within my my my realm of what I have to do so my biggest earning thing is the books the first three were health and fitness things and training guides.

1:03:39My first autobiography went to Sunday Times Bestseller. That earned me really good money. Second one was a second autobiography that went up to Sunday Times as well. I'm so sorry to be so crass. How much money is really good money for a book? You don't need to say that. Yeah, I mean, 100 ,000. Great. And that's a rarity if you get that. But once you get the sales over the level, but also you get an advance. So if your book does amazing, that increases your advance. Then if you beat the sales quota for both the audiobooks and the things, then you start making money. Like Richard Osmond, those Murder Club series, millions.

1:04:14Yeah, amazing. Now, autobiography, my sports autobiography was the best-selling rugby sports autobiography I think it's been, really, up there. It was like Sunday Times bestseller, I think it was number three or number four or something like that, whatever it was. Why do you think that is? Well, because I told the truth and made it funny and I didn't go, it's morning I woke up and had a porridge in my dad. Did you write it yourself?

1:04:31James Haskell:You genuinely think that? Yeah, but did you write it yourself? Yes, I did. I literally, so I sat down with a ghostwriter, a guy. to structure it, to sit down and go, right, listen, I don't really know where do you start with this? What do you want me to talk about? So we did very funny stories. He was a brilliant guy called Ben Dears and he sat down and then he sent it to me and I sat in the garden during COVID, smoking a cigar and just wrote the whole thing because I wanted it to be like my voice. I wanted to have the jokes. I wanted the details. And when you're telling someone else or interviewing, you put all the work in, he structured it, but it's the details around it.

1:05:06It wasn't as funny as I wanted it wasn't it what it wasn't as I want it to be and so I've done that with every single book even the guys with the you know and I've had every publisher I've had rows with you know I'm this has got to go in this isn't it whereas other people go they do it ghostwriter writes it I sit down meticulously go through all of it and I can the best skill I've got is I learned to touch type when I was younger my mum took me and sent me on a council course that free council course I learned to it so I can write really fast I'm very I write like I speak and the books don't laugh uh sorry have you tried whisper flow you just press yes yes i have now but even then chat gpt is way better whisper flow still doesn't understand what i'm saying i speak too fast chat gpt i can game changer for me honestly i can no i agree yeah no it's good but but the touch typing thing what for the books and stuff's really useful because you can sit there and type and i really enjoyed it and again i because of my kind of because of my adhd but i'm not you know not it's not a new thing i got it when i was like eight and i had my i took medication for years and everything else that because of all the medication stuff i took with it it taught me to sit and concentrate so i can sit and just do hours of work watch the time go by and not really not really worry about stuff and so that was really cathartic both writing i love writing i'd written i wrote my school project a book um i wrote my book perfect fit i wrote completely on my own without because i wrote a hundred thousand words i wrote for that everything training plans bits diets um and then self-help book was the last one then we wrote two with good bad rugby and again the guys did their sections but I sat there and wrote mine.

1:06:31James Haskell:Talk about Good, Bad Rugby, talk about the business around it. Yeah. Because it's been massively successful, right? So, I mean, my biggest thing is, like I said, is after speaking, corporate speaking, I do stand-up comedy as well. I did a couple of tours with that, which I did. I've written eight books. And so then the music's the least paying thing out of everything because it costs money with working producers and stuff like that. The Good, Bad Rugby stuff is probably one of the best earners as well because of the podcast. but actually since we've lost our um the guy that we all with the md we had at my left he was very good at hustling all the side earnings and bits of projects and tours and stuff we haven't had any of that because we sold part of the business new company took over the business um and they off the back of it built gbr media so we do um good bad beast we did good bad football we do joe marler we'll see you now we do luxury dispatch we're hopefully he's going to launch a couple more podcasts that built media business but our actual side thing with good by rugby slightly diminished so it's a weird we sort of gained in one area but lost in another but you part you're part of the ownership now yes so instead of going but i always think about if you do something well can you do it better how can you scale it from there and if it fits in your lane you know if you sell if you sell indian food and a chinese opens up next door and there's a queue around the block do you start making chinese food or do you make better indian food you make better indian food is what i would do so i was never that asked about that side of it that other guys i work with and people wanted to do that i'm very much like how do we scale the show how do we make it bigger how do we make it better how do we step away from rugby into a bigger audience um do sporting crossovers um to build then to get to a point where what sells gbr is the chemistry it's not less about the rugby stuff and so we do stuff like that we've just launched um how much money does the pod make here about three and a half million fantastic um so um around you know around it's peaked obviously in world cup years and bits um why did you start it um because we because we had a massive court case with the so so i don't know what the time is here but we've got so are we nearly done well i don't know because there's so much to talk about because you know but basically we're working with as talent for a podcast called House of Rugby.

1:08:39Alex Payne was asked to set up a rugby podcast. He said, you've got to have James Haskell because, you know, he's got light sounding. He's got some opinions. He's also light sounding his own voice. Tins would be perfect. World Cup winner. Married to a member of the Royal Family. Student of the game. Has coached. Good personality. So we set this thing up. We came as talent. We worked with House of Rugby. House of Rugby was owned by a company. I'm not going to name because the company was a drama. But they owned the company. and they took i think guinness paid them 500 grand a year to um sponsor we had no idea that's what it was we were all on talent fees per alex's less least paid i was the most paid tins was was in between and we didn't we didn't know what it was going to go um very well we it within uh first three months we broke all the kpis for the entire thing realized we're onto something something amazing here we did the whole year they were paying us then um guinness renewed for 1.5 didn't we didn't know that didn't change we were going to leave and set up our own thing but i said guys look we don't know about this we haven't got the time to organize let's stay with it um we all equaled our fees across the board so we we said right we split everything three ways just do it simple equally important um and i'm a big advocate of that particularly in business unless there's a real disparity about what you do but the three of us have intangibles that we bring you know um we're all deserved to be equal uh got halfway through the season and basically the parent company was an irish company who had um taken out business development loan that was servicing about three 35 000 a month use the uk company as a guarantor we knew about nothing about this they then obviously defaulted on on the payments uh we finished an episode and they went oh by the way we're going to administration so um and they owed me 50 grand at the time and they hadn't been paying me and my agents at the time would turn out to be a bit house and obviously hadn't been chased as much as they did so i lost 50 grand the other lads lost less way less and they went into administration we then were like well look we've got this massive audience this podcast beats you know it's right up there's top charts and sporting things um let's do it again so we basically went through the process of trying to do it trying to work with different people alex came up with the name good bad rugby we then got then the company got bought by a vc fund wankers um bought by a vc fund who people like you um uh came in about came in and they um they basically thought they had bought good bad rugby boys don't cry with russell kane and they had um boxing with carl frotch what they didn't realize they paid seven million quid not one of the contracts was assigned for each one of these podcasts they'd bought a domain name and that's it and then they came to us um and were like right we're ready we're like no we've got no con we're not we're not part of anything we went we went bust we're going to go on our own next day you're bad people suing you sued us for something called passing off which then meant that we had um that they basically said that we uh had created a podcast exactly the same as the old one well of course it's a rugby podcast so they then went very aggressive with us um we went with a law firm who said uh look these guys are looting it's probably gonna cost you 250 grand to go all the way to court and i'll be like okay we're gonna set up a new one we've got some sponsorship that we should cover that we should be okay we won't have to put our hands in our own pocket i've got no appetite for legal battles my dad has cost me hundreds of thousands of pounds in legal stuff anyway by by you know trying to fight things and have an ego i'm like look i'm not it's not worth it you never win and litigation is very unsure unless you're onto a dead ringer.

1:11:58Anyway, they went through this process, took two years. I quit because we signed with these new people. I couldn't work with the new people, not the lawyers, but new people. I was just really annoyed that the lads said, look, you've got to come back. We had all this kind of stuff going through. Court case. I realised that our lawyers, every time they sent an email to me, Mike and Alex were charging us because we were sued as three individuals, not as a company. Every time we responded, they were charging us. So I kept saying to them, listen, we're not made of money. do not think this is a cash cow.

1:12:26We haven't got, this is the maximum we're going to be able to pay. Anyway, Alex almost had a nervous breakdown because they were hammering him the whole time and he was seen as the adult as a group because I'd been to court three or four times. I'd had legal stuff. I'm not a pushover. So I was very much like. You're a veteran in this. You're like, fuck you. But Alex is much more amenable and placatory than me. I was very firm. So they basically stopped messaging me, just started dealing with Alex. They then told Alex halfway through that it was going to go because 750 ,000, not 250 never told us never wrote to us client care letters said they were going to do it uh we managed to get security of costs against them gone went all the way through to the um the end and the day before court they pulled out and in obviously uk law you can't counter so we either had a choice do we uh pursue them or do we just take our ball home and you know do we just you know deal with whatever they want um i think we had to give an apology i mean just we just some bullshit that we did.

1:13:22And then the answer was, we then had a bill for 750 grand, which we thought the new company we were working with had been servicing the bill. Turns out Alex was getting calls every day because we owed him 500 grand and no one had paid it. I said, Alex, I'll deal with this. Called him up with one call and said, stop calling him. There's no money. Like, you're hounding him. They stopped calling. So I said, we just should have sent me in there anyway. We then had to fight our lawyers, our own lawyers, because they had not told us. So it's like me coming around your house, going could you prune my rose bushes which i imagine you've got could you do could you do the topiary on the extensive lawn right on the on the bushes and then building you a swimming pool and coming back going you owe me a million quid for a swimming pool you're like i didn't order a swimming pool like we've built it now and that's basically what they did they never told us what they were doing so me and mike and alex went if you could show us where you told us it was going to go out of money we'll we'll pay so they obviously couldn't because they're lawyers we end up having a row they took some money off the bill it cost us probably about 680 grand in total we didn't have to pay luckily the business made that money but alex almost had no breakdown it almost destroyed our relationship with other people and but the podcasts basically launched and became profitable and has carried on so we've we've gone from the sort of phoenix in the flames through the ashes had all this drama i've been cancelled twice doing it i upset upset various people um and and so it's been really tough and we actually for the first three years we earned nothing out of it did you ever just feel like i just can't take this no no i I don't know why.

1:14:48I just don't have that mindset. But I actually think, I spent a bit of time this year, I have moments like that when you go, fucking hell, this is tough. Woe is me. This is hard. Because there's lots of stuff with my dad passing away. He left a shit show, financial disaster. My mum's got to sell our house. My brothers are great, but he's a bit of a lost soul. I have a divorce. I've got a child. I've got 10 things that I do as businesses. I work with some people. I'm obviously slightly controversial, not intentionally. you know I have media scanners I have dramas it can get on top of you all the work that I've done through the therapy helps me but there are moments of course you go fuck this but then I genuinely spent a lot of time going actually I know it sounds woo woo but the way you talk about stuff and how open minded you are and what you talk about in your own head about how yourself and how you're going to view things is I then just go back right what is it I can do what are the solutions what can I control this who can help me and why not put the energy into that figuring out who do I speak to a lawyer because I mean I remember my there's a story where my my dad basically tricked me into signing a something or said it was for something with something I was basically a personal guarantee and it was about 75 grand I thought it was like four grand and people came to the door knocking on my door and he'd gone to court lost it and I owed 90 grand and they gave me 10 days to pay now every lawyer I spoke to said um you sign a guarantee you can't get out of it right i went to someone else the guy that was a bit more rogue and we found a solution and got out of it now if i'd taken all the professional advice that everyone told me i would have had to pay no it was nothing to do with me because i signed a guarantee you know how did i'm sorry how do you feel like your dad gets you assigned but look i don't know it's it's a hard one it's not it's not it's not ideal um but there's lots of things like that that that have happened to me but I just think again I have this excitement for life and this desire to perform you know I want to be successful I also know my limitations unfortunately you know I'm bright in certain ways in social situations I'm relatively articulate I'm a good learner I don't have that business I'm not great with figures so I know my limitations I work with people that do and obviously you know because of the way I've conducted myself not intentionally I'm not always the most brand friendly person you know I'm not and I'm not probably what the zeitgeist of what's going on now wants

1:17:08James Haskell:not to collect it but you are into a focus right for an 18 plus type brand you're pretty good if you want to be the family and friends brand they're not going to come to you but that's great you know what you want and also I don't I don't want to ever pretend to be something I'm not because you get caught out you know if you read in the papers that you know Jane Sassel had sworn and done something and pushed someone down the stairs you go oh that sounds probably a bit like him it's when it's when it's when someone who goes it's when someone goes oh my god you know I'm like they're hugging babies and kissing children and then suddenly you get found you know it's James Haskell scene with almond milk you're like what a guy so I think feel betrayed yeah that's what I mean but again I think I think for me with a lot of this stuff it is challenging and I do have those moments of woe but I have worked so hard recently on trying to reframe things and trying to understand things and look you know there are times when stuff really gets on top of you but again i try to have the emotional reaction which you should be entitled to you know kick your toys throw your pram swear lost desperate what am i going to do and then you've got to go look there's got to be a way out of it um you know and sometimes there isn't and sometimes you have to take your medicine um but i think ultimately if you go back again to what you can control who can help you how can you get help and what and what's the plan to get you out of where you're going to go and also talking about having an open mind being positive and go, look, there is, you know, because we can always complain about stuff.

1:18:30But I get annoyed and jealous of people doing things that I want to do and earning money that I want. But then actually when I sit back and look at my life and I go, I've got a great life. And I work with cool people. I get to do stuff like this. Be grateful for what you've got, not what you haven't got. And because you're only fighting against yourself. You know what I mean? And I know it sounds like rhetoric you'd hear online, but it is true. I'm as happy as ever with a good cup of coffee, mate. Watch the world.

1:18:54James Haskell:Did that experience in the media bit, did that make you, Alex and Mike, stronger? together yes it did i mean we very rarely row we rowed you in those bits again because we have different approaches you know we're in different parts of our lives you know different places you know alex is you know um a brilliant guy consummate professional one of the best produce um presenters out there but he's got family he's got kids he's got bills kids go to eat and it's expensive you know he doesn't want to blow that up he doesn't want to have that i i have a thicker skin because i want i don't i don't mind those those challenges um but we're ultimately in the game to make money and we get on very well together.

1:19:29We've had a couple of hours over stuff, but actually I think I'm a very good judge of character and a lot of people that I called out with these guys, you know, again, I'm not going to say it on here, but we've been stitched up on a couple of things where I told these guys, I told them point blank, lads, you are going to get, because I basically said, I don't trust them, I don't care, you know, until you put a contract to shareholding agreement, thing on my back, I'm not interested in doing it. I'm not having my word, take my word, don't take anyone's word i trust no one really i see human nature for exactly what it is before someone to a corner they'll do whatever they need to do uh you know and people if they get away it will shaft you cheat and whatever so i i said to them and lo and behold the lads got fucked and we got we all three of us got fucked by somebody or some something and it's like lads you got to play nice and be respectful but ultimately you have to do what needs to be done and so i think we we we do get on really well and actually we're able to have conversations but we are three very different people with three different very experiences but we love what we do we love the audience that we've got we love talking and having the passion and it doesn't ever feel like work and it's never a chore the only time it was a chore was a court case and trying to manage other people we work with and as soon as you get to a business with your staff staff is the biggest issue for any business because no one cares about your business as much as you do and you've got to go through kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince or princess that's prepared to work hard and do what needs to be done and this modern generation they want it all for nothing and don't want to work aren't prepared to commit don't want to work weekends aren't prepared to sacrifice and people say to me you you know what's different for you why why am i different you know i should i have an argument with producers like well can you come in here i was like no i've got to take my daughter to school i've got to do this well you know what other people can i mean here's my diary turn my laptop around go look at that look i do that it's what i've never seen anything like it yeah so i this is life you either meet me or we don't we don't we don't we don't do it it's you know and he goes well i'm working on weekends well i'm 000 what do you fucking mean oh i'm working i'm representing the business why is there no one from our business working you know why am i at the you know going to a gbr event and no one i can get hold of it's not how it works you work and you work hard you do what needs to be done now you need to get work-life balance but if you're not prepared to work and sacrifice i'll find someone else who is oh you can't do that because you can't fire anyone these days you can't tell anyone the shit you've got to go what do you stop doing start doing keep doing here's a formal letter i understand about employment but you know there needs to be some protection over some things but i think the issue is that like in like in life in a friendship group and i said to you earlier that there's always people that are going to pull together help you and be good energy givers or energy sappers same thing with business there are people that see this as a career and want to work there are people who are nine to fivers or nine to threes and that's all they want to do and you're like fine but that's not what i want and you know just because you don't want to meet me halfway i'm not i'm not here to listen to you or stop your go at your pace you work at my pace you can't take the pace go away and they don't and then that's what i believe in all this stuff and i and i think when i was a player with all the stuff i did i probably got the work-life balance wrong a little bit so i had to run it back had to listen to travis do less be better for weekends peak at the right times did i do did i go to the openings of envelopes did i go meet everyone that would have a coffee with me to talk about business was a lot of it a waste of time could have been an email could have been a zoom yeah now i'm ruthless on all that stuff but life's a living and fun you know like i i flew I was in France for a week.

1:22:41I was in France for a week, flew back to London on Saturday night, DJed on my own event. I did it in Shoreditch from 2 till 11 with some guest DJs. Flew back to France Monday. I had France all week. Flew back Sunday, took my ex-wife and my daughter for food. DJed Sunday night, woke up at 5, got home at 12, woke up at 5, flew to Toulouse, interviewed on Tindepon, did an Adidas campaign, flew back Tuesday, had work here today, two DJ sets. And I've got all the admin work bits, stuff, I've got a PA, I've got stuff to help me, but that's how I want to live my life. I like the chaos, I like the structure, I like doing it.

1:23:18I've got Thursday, Friday, two days with my daughter, just focused on her. I'm taking her, I'm going to go to physio, she'll come with me, I'll take her for food, I'll play with her, all that stuff. Saturday, Sunday, I'll play with her all day, DJ sets, balance. That's me, that's balance. That's how I want to do it. I don't want to be sitting at home, I don't want to retire, I don't want to, I just want to keep working. And then so when I go to a restaurant, I can have a bottle of Montrachet and enjoy myself or have a Cohiba Robusto and enjoy myself. And that's it. And I'm prepared to do it, you know.

1:23:49Should we do a quick fire round? Yeah. What brand do you not work with today that you would most like to work with? Oh, that is a very good question. AP, I quite like. I'm not a big watch man. I like my watches, but like the Royal Oak there's a rose gold and black one that I think is fantastic it's big they've got big watches Arnold Schwarzenegger they've got big ones they suit me I think they're really cool I would love to actually I mean I don't think it'd be great for my health but like you know the Cahiba brand a cigar brand and stuff like that because you know I do like that someone said you can't talk about smoking you shouldn't put it up I'm like well whatever Arnie used to do it you know so why not the rock smoke you know so but I think AP would be would be right up there.

1:24:34James Haskell:Favourite person you've spoken to on GBR? Oh, I've had some amazing ones. I thought Jason Fox I really enjoy. Bobby Skinstadt, it was great. And Ellie Jones, I think. They're all up there because they're all very different because that's the beauty of the show is it, one day it's emotional. Like when Nigel Owens came on, he talked about him trying to take his own life. And, you know, I've known him for years and the question of his sexuality and stuff. And you just think, you know, that's how terrible that how difficult that would have been and next week you're then laughing with believe in a polar about something else then you know it's so i love the roller coaster yeah yeah who did you most dislike playing against could be feared could be fucking nightmare mark um individual players i mean i mean any massive um polynesian or or sort of specific islander it was always gonna be a tough day in the afternoon you know you guys like I remember the biggest hit I ever got hit on me was Sam Tuatupo, who played for the All Blacks and played for a sale, hit me.

1:25:37I wasn't even looking, hit me and basically put my ribs through the other side of my head. The fridge with legs. Yeah, yeah, he was, yeah. I mean, Henry the Tuolangis, you know, you always knew that I was going to be... I played sevens once against Henry Tuolangis. I mean, there's a lot of space for a huge man and like trying to tackle him around the legs. So that was always quite tricky. Any of those guys, you just knew that it was going to be a tough afternoon and that, you know, you're about to get levelled.

1:26:00James Haskell:what have you not done yet that you'd like to what have I not done I've never been on a private jet what no no sorry brother no no I'm a former rugby player I'm not you know I know I cover listen I'm divorced listen I'm divorced I have to earn a lot of money I've got two I've got two I've got two I've got two I've got fucking two hours one half hours to pay for cars things everything divorce bits you know travel I need to earn more I need to earn way more than I'm What car have you got? I got Range Rover, but then some drug dealer crashed into me the other day with my daughter in the car, snapped the wheel off and then legged it, but luckily he was insured and he got arrested.

1:26:40James Haskell:He was an insured drug dealer? Yeah, mental. Conscientious, isn't it? Road safety. Less likely to get pulled over. Less likely to pull over. Exactly. Yeah, because that's how stupid it would be if you've got like 10 grams of gear in the car and you get pulled over for not insuring. It's like a moron. You have your opinions, you're confident in yourself. Is there anything that you regret? Goodbye. Oh, good question. There was something I regretted the other day, actually, I thought. I regret letting my dad manage me at a time, only because he didn't have any experience, and I think he probably created part of the myth around Brad and Haskell and all that kind of stuff that wasn't me.

1:27:15I'm actually not as big a prick as people think I am. So that, I think, would probably be something I wish I hadn't done because it changed our relationship, even though I still loved him at the end and we knew he loved it. I made the conscious choice to look past everything just because you only get one dad. So that wasn't a problem. I wasn't, you know, when he passed away, I was very content and I knew he loved me. So that wasn't a problem and vice versa. But I think him managing, I think, what else would I have, what else would I have not gone? I think I'd say that one. I think most things regrets.

1:27:43I don't give a lot of time for it. There's things that I cringe at that I've done. I'm like, oh, why did I do that? And what was that, that, you know?

1:27:50James Haskell:Go on, what goes to your mind then? I don't know, just like some ways I dressed before and I turned up and like, I don't know. yeah just little bits but mostly I'm pretty happy because everything shaped me to be the person I am today and again when I said about when things get tough I always think that if you are so focused on what you want and what's happening if you actually step back and go like if I'm receptive and open and happy things fall into your lap I find when I'm like that stuff people knock on my door connections and what you're doing is it's not what you wanted it to be you want 2 million quid deal but then we actually looked at it if you were present you go oh that adds to that and that and that's coming and before you know it you're actually in a good place and so i've tried to do a lot more of that and not not regret stuff too much if you could only give someone one piece of nutrition advice yeah what would it be uh worry about your protein always like where's your protein source coming from it should be the most important part of every meal if you look at your plate you can't see where your protein is you're fucked before you even started don't go vegan even well i mean a vegan with vegan well i mean i wouldn't because because it doesn't work for everyone and the amount of supplementation you have to have.

1:28:56And I also think the best meals have medically been proven. Animal proteins with plant-based as well. So I would have plant-based food. I would try lots of things. I'd have variety. Always color on your plate. Not one is better than the other. And everyone thinks about the game changers. People were winning way more Olympic medals ever than not being a vegan. It's like, look how amazing these people are doing it. I was like, yeah, but they were doing it. Lots of other people are doing loads of other things, you know?

1:29:17James Haskell:So I wonder what the worst... You can just say you dislike vegans. I don't know. I like vegans. I like vegans. some of my best friends are vegans I probably know more about veganism than anyone else fake news yeah exactly them and high rocks people you know all about them because they fucking don't show up you never do a high rocks no no not because I don't like dislike the brand it's just I can't run I have my ankle fused and I don't want to run around doing stuff like that so you haven't fallen down the paddle train either no I play paddle I love paddle have you not seen a little boy on the TV show a vegan and a vegetarian run off a cliff who hits the ground first or who wins no no no yeah yeah yeah Yeah, who wins?

1:29:53Society. But I am... Sorry, but Paddle, you're in the Paddle. Yeah, I love Paddle. I've had six lessons played four times. Love it. For a bigger gentleman, want to play more.

1:30:05James Haskell:Six lessons played four times. It's not great. No, so no. So six Paddle lessons played four actual games. Oh. No, no. I'm not saying that. That's it. That's it. He ain't good with numbers. You're going to have to wake up a long fucking earlier than that to catch me out, you two. Do you know what I mean? I've got to make sure you two. Charlie don't pick up on it just let him go don't be mean six one on one lessons they're not games are they and then played four actual games I think the whole audience was like poor James I don't know I think only you two the slowest in the classes you know what I mean alright you know too literal yeah exactly too literal just a couple of nerds loving life you know what I mean well one super nerd one front of house yeah the front of house nerds well yeah less nerds more palatable well what more money are you earning get back in there wait until the fucking deal's signed Who have you not had on the pod who you'd most like to have on?

1:30:54Oh, well, I really want to interview outside. I want to like guys like Ricky Gervais I want to really speak to. The Rock, I think, would be great. I think just, again, him. Arnie. Arnie. I think his business acumen, I think, you know, look at The Rock in terms of all the stuff he touches, how smart he is. For America, he swears a bit. He's a bit edgy, you know, nothing bad. But he's just a big character, and I love it. And he's gone from like Arnie, you know, weightlifter from Austria to governor of California. You know, that's stuff that people write in books. That's stuff people write in dream journals that never happens.

1:31:29You know, Tindall's Wakefield to Windsor. I mean, from Corgis to coal mines. Oh, coal mines to Corgis. That's like, that's unheard of. You know, Rock, you know, from wrestling to the highest paid movie star of all time. Selling brands, bits, millions and millions and millions of pounds. Interesting guy, kept his personality. seems to be a great good family like really interesting James dude you've been amazing I think we should go on a private jet yes can you just more importantly can we make some money together I don't know how to do it yeah yeah you sound like you've got enough so just share it around how could I make some more because I need it lads I'm hungry what do you need to do I'm not doing anything like too well on that note follow James' OnlyFans it's out of action it's out of action shut that down follow me on Instagram if you like music you can follow me SoundCloud I've got a Facebook page I'm at Crosshaving under James Haskell or Haskell Music very simple I'll buy my books What a Flanker Ruck Me Ruck Me What a Flanker basically what my anchor Ruck Me I've written another book no I did get well you say that you say that you shouldn't laugh as loud as I needed you to yeah how much money did you make out of it a lot not a lot not as much as I should have seriously pure star cheers lads

1:32:46James Haskell:thanks so much to james for joining us for what was without doubt one of my favorite shows we've done mostly because we didn't have to say much his experience on and off the pitch are fascinating and it's a personality that is as infectious as it is direct in ways we don't often see in this time whether you agree with everything he says is a different question but i admire the resolute approach and the hustle mentality that has made him who he is thanks as always for joining us let us know your thoughts and i hope you enjoyed the show now if you want to see more from today's show you can do so by going to YouTube or any of our other social channels across Instagram, TikTok, and of course now Substack.

1:33:20James Haskell:There are more snippets to share and bite-sized chunks to consume, so whilst you're there, please do like, subscribe, and follow the show. As you'll hear from your other favourite pods, it makes a huge difference when bringing you the best guests and conversations from around the world of sport, which is of course our endless aim. Thank you again for tuning in, and we'll see you next week. As this episode is brought to you by Airwallex, I wanted to share a piece of content created to announce Airwallex's partnership with Arsenal earlier this year. Fans, players, Henri, Spike Lee, with partnerships now having a huge content impact, this is one of the best you'll see.

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1:34:24oh hell no

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