Liam Scully: The Story of Lincoln City’s Promotion Miracle (Ep124)

27:06This doesn't happen without excellent ownership. You've had a slight shift in the ownership. Ron Fowler's taken a bigger control this year. How have the owners been really, well, even since, you know, kind of we last sat down 20 months ago, how has that relationship developed for you? And what role have they played in making this happen? Yeah, I think, I genuinely think, you know, I work for them, we're lucky to have the best owners in football. And that goes from Clive Nates, that goes to the Jabera family and Ron Fowler now. And they've all had a universal trait. within that. I think the first thing that they do is they work with us to set a strategic plan and they give us the space and the bandwidth in order to then go and deliver that.

27:46There's never a message at 5pm after a bad result. Everything's done at a macro level, not micro level when they analyze our progress. And therefore, going back to that, react or respond, what it's enabled us to do within the executive team, within the football insiders, they knew we would have to be systematic and structured to build something. So they've given us the space and the bandwidth to do that. There's been huge check and challenge. There's been huge debate. But then once we sign something off and then once we commit, they commit. And that in particular, the most impressive thing I think I have from our ownership is they commit when they disagree with us.

28:24So when we leave the room and we said, this is the way that we are going to do it, even if they go, chief exec, I think you're a little bit crazy. You wouldn't know that. Nobody would know that. They absolutely then back us in order to go and deliver. And if that's putting their name to it in an interview or if that's whatever it may be, they would give us that support and backing. And I do think they deserve a huge amount of credit, not just for writing the checks. And of course they have supported us financially, but how they've done that and how they challenge us, I think is really important.

28:58And, you know, Ron Fowler is exactly the same. Let's be really honest. You know, he's been the controlling owner of San Diego Padres, which Lincoln City versus San Diego Padres, like we're probably half a department compared to the size and scale. But there's been no, you know, there's been no suggestion that, you know, the Padres know how to do it better. There's been no suggestion that this is how it is. It's always about, let me try you these ideas. Let me challenge you here. there's knowing what they know knowing what they don't know but always with absolute you know check and challenge on that side we i get also a lot it comes up american ownership good or bad you know i say well depends if you're a chelsea fan you have a different perspective to a arsenal fan right now right you can't you can't bucket it all in the same place but when it does go right and they do come in with a level of experience expertise perspective that we don't have here yeah it can be excellent with the experiences that he's had?

29:54Where does he lean in where he's been maybe particularly valuable adding something? Yeah. I think, first of all, it's just he really challenged us to think bigger at times. We're currently doing 36 weeks worth of building work at the stadium in 14 weeks in the closed season. Makes sense. Yeah, which is good fun. Especially with timings and builders. Absolutely. But when we iterated and when, you know, I remember the first presentation of what we're doing and it was almost like, nah, be bigger than that. Try harder. And there was probably three or four attempts where we're going, okay, is this big enough an idea for you?

30:32And it's like, nah, nah, nah. You know, and whilst it was playful and it really set the tone, it was like, no, no, this is the vision. This is now what it looks like. I will back you to this level. We'll back the business plan. We'll back there. But look at where the water line is. And of course, that needs financing in order to support. But everything that we're doing is based on a return on investment. And there is a real solid business plan behind that. So there's not one ounce of this that is a vanity project. And I think that's where Ron has really shifted the dial for us in the fact that our ambitions and some of what we're looking at is just really challenges to be even more creative.

31:17And sometimes we have to roll back from that. He goes, okay, you've run off the end of the period. I didn't mean that. That's too... But I think that's been really, really fun. And I go back to the environment in that. What he's also enabled us to do and challenged us to do is take some risks and go, okay, once we sign it off, I'm not going to be on your head, be it. we're in it collectively and I think that that's the true spirit of the club and that and that helps massively so stadiums are hallowed turf right for fans they're also now key drivers of improved business and opportunity in your 14 weeks that you're putting this all into what are you what are you doing to elevate I guess that experience yeah so we love our home you know Central Bank has has been the home of Lincoln City for you know 140 years 120 years sorry it's a phenomenal place for football it's an amphitheater you know for the 95 minutes of a game it is just a phenomenal place to be the hair stand on the up on the on the back of your neck but actually outside of a match day well broader than that on the match day but then outside of a match day it is a really difficult property to to generate revenue from so everything that we're looking to do here is how do we enhance the match day experience so how do we give our fans the best possible experience when they're there.

32:31How do we drive value? And then equally, how do we take a property of 120 years of age built over various different iterations, different architects, different designs, different eras? How do we do that that then helps generate revenue outside of the match day? And one of the things that we believe is that we've got the best view in football. We have the phenomenal Lincoln Cathedral. Our stadium sits and if you look into the horizon, and it's just a beautiful view of one of the most beautiful buildings in England. And we have that perspective and it's like, how can we make the most of that? So our new hospitality suites, we've ripped away our executive boxes.

33:07We've created new lounges. We're going to have the only conference and banqueting space in Lincolnshire for 500 people plus. And what it will do is it will work on a match day and it will work on a non-match day. I'm not sure anyone's ever tried to do it in 14 weeks. But again, that's part of the fun of it. Change the game. Yeah, exactly. Change the game until we find when we can win. And I think that's exactly the mentality and the approach. Now, lots of other football clubs will be doing this. So again, we're not unique. But what you can do in Lincoln versus, I won't name them, it has to be based on Lincoln.

33:40We have Lincoln Cathedral. Let's lean into that. Let's make the most of that. And it's those type of examples that I think means that we're just not a copy and paste of any other football club. we have to find the best solution for Lincoln City. So on that, how's the financial health of the club for you from where you would want it to be today? If we look at profit and loss, let's just say simply, but then also look at the revenue streams that you'll have and what I mean by that is how you're performing commercially, the match day side of it, but actually let's call it venue so that it's that in total, plus then maybe your merch.

34:13Yeah, so as we leave League One, which we spent seven years in and I think we got to know every corner of that division in the time that we were there. Despite having bigger boys and girls in the playground, we were good performers in all those aspects from commerciality, match day revenue. It was always above par for where a club our size would be. I think the big difference clearly going into the championship is eyeballs. As I said before, I'm a huge fan of the Premier League and the Premier League is the best league in the world in world football. But what we've also not to forget is the championships, the sixth, seventh best league in world football.

34:59And in England, we're just really spoiled by the fact that we have the Premier League. But the Premier League's a global league. So we're going into one of the top leagues in the world for interest, for eyeballs on, for size of stadiums, for quality of the game. So the biggest change for us is the broadcast revenue and the amount of times that we're on live TV and the amount of attention that we're going to get. And again, we have to lean into that. When you look at the revenue and you say, oh yeah, well, we've grown by 70, 80 % in that change. The reality is the broadcast deal has done that. What we've then got to do is just use the opportunity to then maximize everything else that goes around that.

35:39We're investing in new technology within the stadium in order to go and maximize that. We're restructuring some of our commercial deals, our retail partnership and various other things. Again, in order to maximize it, because what works in a League One landscape doesn't work in a championship landscape. And we have to recognize that. It's not just the playbook spooled up. It's actually largely, it's a very different playbook, including not least because we have very different financial rules between one division to the other. So I think what we have to make sure that we're doing is we don't go, well, we think we did all right in the League One setting and therefore we just rinse repeat just bigger in the championship.

36:15It's been a very different mentality. So a lot of what we've been doing as we've been preparing for this is understanding what works and actually what doesn't within that championship setting. And of course, there are the key cornerstones, you know, your commercial revenue, your kit property, your advertising boards. Of course, there is all of that. But equally, there are lots of new opportunities available to us as well. And just to be clear, you know, people don't know the difference in that kind of broadcast revenue can be about 10 million pounds right into the championship. so you're suddenly dealing with a really huge amount of money when turnover could have been around but what would i say between 10 to 15 previously in league one so you're almost 100 % on that side but the thing that people miss is then yeah but costs so the discipline that you talked about at the beginning processes in place to not slip into the mentality that just allows you to go and lose a huge amount of money or be overly dependent on revenue that is far from secure beyond now is probably the most important job you have.

37:14Yeah, I think the skill element within this is calibrating the appetite for risk and knowing where to, because if we don't take risks, we will be relegated and we'll be back to where we started. If we take the safety catch off and go gung-ho, we might stay up, we might be relegated. And if we get relegated having taken the safety catch off, boy, are we in trouble. So there's two ends of the spectrum there that neither outcome is particularly reliable. You won't want to take a bet doing it in those ways. So we have to calibrate our attitude and appetite for risk, and that's in terms of the contracts that we offer.

37:57That's how we structure things. That is how many people that we bring into the off-field team from a commercial point of view. And I think that's been the hardest pure technical skill element that we've had to calibrate over the course of the last few months because that is subjective and that is strongly opinion-based. For you, how much of that is you taking that risk versus you and Ron versus Ron taking a risk? Because your job is obviously to deliver based on the financials available. His job is to decide what financials are available. Yeah, and that's been a very collaborative process. So we've spoken about that at great length.

38:37And I think that's where, again, we wanted to make sure we went through understanding alignment commitment. You know, we are in a committed stage now. So the business plan is we have got commitment from ownership in a best case and a worst case scenario, what that looks like. We have alignment because when we worked through the process, it wasn't just a chief exec banging a budget on the table going, this is the one plan. And if it's not, this is not going to work. But what we did is, you know, along the journey, we didn't just say what, we said why. And we worked in the understanding phase. So when we were designing the business plan and what we look at over the next two to three years, we spent the large majority of our time working with Ron, working with the investors, in the understanding phase.

39:22If this, then that, what does this look like? And what that enabled us to do is in some way you could say that we probably spent 80 % of our time in that design. And then once there was a deep enough understanding for what we're looking to achieve, that's when we kind of cycled through and put all the building blocks place and locked everything in. So the attitude to risk and the financing of risk was, of course, signed off by Ron and Andrew Fowler and ultimately Liquid Investments, our ultimate owners. But again, it was iterative. It wasn't an A, B. It wasn't binary. It's either this or it's this.

39:56We worked through that. And we think we have a process that will work for Lincoln City, a business plan that will work for Lincoln City that will give us the best possible chance to survive and hopefully one day thrive within the championship. But equally, we've not put the farm on red or black. It wouldn't be ideal if we go back down, but it won't be catastrophic. And that's the bit that we've had to plan for. Squad cost, new regulations, football regulator. You've had a lot of change in the management, shall we say, of football in this country. You've been on the EFL board, you're running a club, you're now running a club in a brand new environment what are the biggest changes and how is this kind of impacting your day-to-day job?

40:41Yeah so you're absolutely right we work in a regulated industry now that's the first time that has happened again net overall it's a good thing I firmly believe that but there are challenges that come with that the amount of money that we're going to have to spend on governance the amount of investment that we're going to have on one hand that you can say that that's a good thing. Scenario planning, worst case scenarios, evidence that we have to submit that we've got contingency plans in that regard. So there is, and definitely there's an argument for that this is a good thing, but there is a lot of work having to go into what does the total wipeout situation look like?

41:20What are you mitigating against that? And big businesses, of course, will have this, but sometimes we need to not forget that some of these clubs are League Two, revenues of three, four million versus top of the championship, huge 40, 50, 60 million revenue clubs. There are massive differences of scale within that. The regulator is proportionate with its application. So I think the regulator is a game changer for the industry. Truthfully, some good, some bad, but it's here. So we roll our sleeves up, we get on with it, we accept. and it's our job to work within the parameters that give. But I think net overall positive, but good governance and ensuring we have good governance is now a critical responsibility of the chief executive.

42:07Yeah. I joked with you before, but as I was kind of looking through this, I looked at promotion, I looked at change of managers, I looked at change of ownership, I looked at stadium development. Like, ooh, this is a lot in a short space of time, which is amazing. If communication and relationship with the ultimate people that matter the most is their, i.e. the fan base. How has it been after giving them such a great moment, but dealing with all of these things, some of which will be excellent and exciting, like promotion, others that may be challenging and need that extra arm around the shoulder slash clarity, I guess, manager change, stadium development, we're not going to lose the heart of the club.

42:49How has it been balancing all of this stuff in a relatively short space of time? I think the unfiltered truth is going 29 games unbeaten, 103 points. At that point, the fans are clearly going to be supportive and backing and understanding. I think the hard work that goes in actually is when the optics maybe aren't as good. And we always call it the bank of goodwill. But you have to deposit into that bank of goodwill when maybe the on-field and the things that the fans are there for, which is winning football, aren't going well. So what I'd like to think that we've done at Lincoln City over the last decade is the fact that we've always been visible.

43:31We've always communicated transparently, in particular when the theory is that times aren't going so well or we're not quite hitting the sweet spot. And so much so, the head coach that has captained the ship for those 29 games unbeaten, for those 103 points, when that person moves on and rightly so and wish them well in their career what comes next? The fans so far have given us their approval for the decisions that we made our rationale and why we've done it and there's probably no bigger test of confidence and trust in the club when we do something a little quirky after the season that we've just had but I don't think that's because of the last 10 minutes I think that's because of the last 10 years hopefully what the fans of what they do and they reciprocate is that they almost unconditionally then back our judgment at that moment in time.

44:27We said we did is really important to us and that's in particular at times of giving bad news at least let's be transparent and communicate that rather than hiding away. You said it was a pretty special moment to share with them when you did win the league and you had the celebrations in the city. Yeah, that was, that's, I'll never forget that moment in my life. That was incredible. You know, the city bus parade, people won't know the Lincoln geography, but we're sat on the open top bus just outside the back of the stadium and we're there for 20 minutes waiting for the official parade time. And if I'm honest, I'm looking down the street and I'm thinking, I don't think anyone's going to turn up to this.

45:06Like, you know, I could hardly see anyone. I think this is going to be the most embarrassing moment in football history. And then we got to the roundabout and turned the corner and the high street in Lincoln and 40 ,000 to 50 ,000 people came out within the city. Bearing in mind the population's 100 ,000 within the city of Lincoln was just incredible. But I don't think the scale was the most impressive thing. Because the high street in Lincoln and the bus could hardly move, we spent a lot of time just stuck. And you were able to look people in the eyes and what it meant to them and the passion and the care and the support.

45:42I'm a bit of an emotional void at times, but that was like a real lump in the throat and you're like, oh my God, this is special. And that was a really cool moment because the players, the staff, everybody that had been involved in it was there to witness it. One of the things we really wanted is we wanted the players' families on the buses. So we had an extra bus on because we wanted the players to experience this with their families as well. The people that have sacrificed the most over the last 12 months and prior to that is their families. So for them to be able to experience it well, I think was really, really important.

46:14for us and yeah that was a that was a really cool moment it's probably a funny moment for you isn't it as a see and people probably don't give enough uh recognition to this of executives in football where you do have to separate emotion from outcome yeah quite often to have an experience like that where actually do you know what that is just a moment that's a day to not worry about what's happening next to not think about something that's gone wrong in the past to let yourself enjoy that moment because you as much as the players much of the fans are part of the team that allow that to happen but you probably very very rarely let yourself even recognize that yeah no my wife's brilliant and she supports me unconditionally as well and yeah the last thing she said to me as I was leaving the house because I'm I was whinging about a few things my name's on the safety certificate I'm a bit grumpy about you know x y and said oh you know this person wants this and she went oh will you just please enjoy this and in fairness yeah she rarely gives me advice but but when she does, I do listen.

47:11And yeah, it was a great moment. But broader than that, you know, I genuinely mean this. This isn't meant to be con. It's taken a village for Lincoln City to have the success that we have, you know, behind the scenes. And to be able to share that moment with so many people and to see it, that was really special. There was two bits. There was looking down in the fans' eyes and seeing what it meant to them. And there was looking back in the eyes of the people on the bus, seeing what that meant to them. And they were like really cool moments. you know I remember turning around to our head of medical who he used to be a scholar at the club and then he went away and did his medical qualifications then was our academy physiotherapist and then became our head and he's from Lincoln I remember turning around going oh mate this is special and you know looking in his eyes and you know looking back at me too saying I think they're the bits in football that make it all the worthwhile being slightly self-indulgent there.

48:02Previously you'd said to me that you um and you're up against people who are a nuclear sub and you're a canoe and i was thinking if you're on that should we say water dwelling vehicle train can we move you out of a canoe where are we at are we at like sun seeker are we a small cruise a ferry cruise ship yeah no i think we've definitely got a motor on our boat now uh but i still think we can get let go of the paddles but yeah, I'm not too sure it's much bigger than that. But I do, going back to it, Charlie, I do think it can be quite liberating knowing who you are, what you've got and where we are.

48:44And we know how hard the challenge is going to be going into one of the top leagues in the world next year. I think League One in the UEFA coefficient is about the 37th league. League One's about the seventh. We've not jumped up one league, we've jumped up 30 leagues. So we are definitely not approaching this naive. We're definitely not sat here thinking that we've got the answers. to everything. We definitely don't. But equally, there is part of us that goes, okay, right. As long as we're us and as long as we continue being us and commit to being us, we believe that that will be good enough. And you have to enjoy it.

49:17I mean, look, so many times this season I was just looking at that championship table. It is incredible how many massive teams are playing in that league. And now you, Bolton, Cardiff, adding to that, you know, There are games every single weekend that you and the fans will get to enjoy. That's not void of expectation. That's not void of you performing well. But it is a privilege, right? It is a privilege. You've slugged away for seven years where, if we're being honest, probably a lot of people would have expected you to be down the bottom rather than at the top. And you've made that jump. I remember a fan, one of the local fan forums, because he kept saying, Liam, you keep telling us that we want to look up the pyramid, not down.

49:59But show us what you mean. tell us what you mean by that and i think we've got to be really careful because you know if you stand in a building full of people and you as a genuine leader and you say look you know we've got this shot put on we're going to hit the moon like they'll look at you and go okay come on you know have some but the the big thing i'd say is like what i've learned is you definitely do not put a ceiling on a group of people you definitely do not cap what is what is possible um so there's not one ounce of what we're doing going into next year is intending to be tourists. We are a serious professional outfit.

50:37We do things our way and we're there to compete. And we don't want to have the mentality of, oh, if we get beat, so what? We definitely don't have that. We just have to get that calibration between realism and expectation. So a quick example, but teams that stay up often average just over 52 points. The average promoted team wins three away games in their first season. Really? Three away games. You know, that's 23 you know, that's 20 odd away games that you're coming away, you know, very empty handed. One fifth of the points. That's fascinating. So how can we attack that and how can we do that differently?

51:15What if we can be the club that goes and wins five or six? Everybody says home form's really important for example. So I just think you know, there are, whilst there is balanced and measured expectation equally there is a little bit of a steal and are behind the scenes. You know what? We're going to be us. We're going to take it our way and we believe it will be enough. And I think the biggest challenge you will always have as a leader is calibrating that. That it's not blind arrogance or naivety, but equally that then you're not denting aspiration and putting a ceiling on a group. How different is operating in the transfer market or should we say in recruitment environment in a championship compared to a League One?

51:52Yeah. I think I'll tell this anecdote and please I don't mean it condescending or... The way our processes work, when it gets to the end point and clips and videos towards the back end of last season when we're looking at recruitment with all due respect when we're watching clips of players we're used to watching the players you know I don't know running around maybe in a team in the League of Ireland or maybe a League 2 team or League 1 team within England and this clip comes on the screen and it's the Bernabeu and I look at it and I'm like is this who are we after here? You're shopping in Madrid now And look, it was a game, it was a qualifier and whatever.

52:34But that was definitely an interesting moment where we looked at each other and went, ah, the game's changed here, hasn't it? And where I do think we can thrive as Lincoln City is, the unfiltered truth is the Premier League and the Championship is a really, really interesting proposition for players across the world. They know that in English football are the best leagues. so they want to come to the championship. We are one of the few championship football clubs and few Premier League football clubs. We're in that family now. So our opportunity to go and shop in that global league, in that global market has come.

53:11Now, if we want to be precious about this, that's not because we're Lincoln City. That's because we are in one of the top seven leagues of this world. So that has opened a brand new market for us. What we've got to then do is we've got to choreograph What does that relationship and what does that journey look like for that individual and for that human being? Because for the last seven years, we've talked about come to Lincoln City, join us, and either you go to the championship because you go faster than us, or we go there together. Whereas now, we're hopefully talking about come to us and you go to the Premier League or you go with.

53:46So that does take a recalibration because the type of player, quite frankly, the quality of player, the history of where they've come from is very, very, very different. However, what we've also got to be really respectful of and mindful of is we've got an incredible group of people, some of them that are pre-peak in their development curb, some of them, quite frankly, are post-peak, that have come and done an unbelievable thing at Lincoln City. So we've got to get the balance right between respecting what's going on in the past and what's going on in the future. And I think our build is going to be sensitive and respectful of that.

54:19Again, not romantic, but equally, go back to it, never put a ceiling on a group of players. And I think that's what we're going to do. It's a fine balance, isn't it? I mean, you are one of the most humble people in football that I've ever met, I promise you, on that front. And I'd imagine that is a quality that has transitioned throughout the organisation. At the same time, football is also about strength and confidence. And should we say some form of overt performance of self-belief to encourage people in that situation that this is the place you have to go. So I'd imagine for you, it is a fine balance, isn't it, to strike between having that internally and then also maybe being able to turn on something when the time is right for a conversation where you need to sell a bit of a dream and you need to show the ambition that this is the place where you can come and develop and achieve what you want to achieve.

55:02Yeah, but I think that's where a lot of what we've done in the past still translates. Being really honest, our best recruitment tool is players that have left us for a range of reasons. And one of the things I'm really proud about is the way our players talk about us after they've moved on. And sometimes that's successful stories and sometimes that's not. I'm not going to name them individually. It'd be unfair in the scenarios, but we have definitely signed players in the last three, four, five years, purely and simply because of feedback, referrals, whatever you want to call it, from colleagues that either players that they're playing with currently or players that they've played in the past because they talk about what the environment's like at Lincoln City, the level of support that you get.

55:42Now, this isn't woolly fluffy. This is still elite sport. We're not all sat on beanbags. It's not that. but we there is a don't mistake our kindness for weakness i think is you know there is a real edge to what we do but equally i just think there is a way that you can go about things and we've have to remember whilst my job is to trade players there's a real human way that you can do this and if you and if you put the human being at the center of that you know very rarely do you find that you have a that you have a misalignment out of interest you've done this now for a while What part of the job comes most naturally to you, do you think?

56:18And what part have you had to maybe work on a little bit? Yeah, I think the bit that I really enjoy is people and solving problems. And I think the best thing that you can do in the job and the seat that I'm in is that you do have the ability to make decisions that, you know, you ultimately can have the final say that impacts people's lives. That's the coolest thing with the job. You have to act responsibly with that. But, you know, looking someone in the eye and backing them and believing. Now, that's not just an on-field talent. You know, one of the proudest things that we have at Lincoln City is our alumni that have come in, worked for the organization, that have then gone on to work at the very top of sports business.

56:59You know, I think it's one of the coolest things. And, you know, meeting up with them every now and then and how's life and, you know, speaking to a couple of our former colleagues that have just come back from the Monaco Grand Prix, working at McLaren F1. You know, that's pretty cool. You know, I remember you as an intern, or I remember you coming in fresh out of university in an entry-level job. I think they're some of the coolest stories that we have. And again, they become our best salespeople and our recruitment people. So I think hopefully if I have one talent in this world, I do think it's working with people and bringing a team along and creating an environment that is both fun but equally is high performance.

57:35I think to answer the other side of it, I think as a chief exec, as ultimately responsible. You have things from health and safety, from a governance, from a regulation point of view. I can't lie and say that. I get ecstatic about reading our latest safety report. But you have to operate with balance. And I think one of the things that, certainly working through a lower league club, you have to be ambidextrous. You have to have the ability to do as many things as possible because without that, you don't have that balance within the organization. But football is a wonderful industry with wonderful people.

58:09and the thing that maybe the fans don't see is it's really collegiate. We'd all kick our granny on a Saturday for three points. There is no doubt that we're competitive beasts, but I promise you, and maybe because it's the pressure of the industry, Monday to Friday, it's really collegiate. There's some proper top human beings that will always go out of their way to help you and work with you and I think that's pretty cool within the industry. Completely agree. I had a couple of random questions, so apologies because these follow no train of thought, but I was interested because I saw them. Firstly, 21st Group listed Lincoln as the most sustainable and efficient club in England.

58:44I thought that was really interesting. What does it mean to be the most sustainable and efficient club? Yeah, I think... Or efficient. Efficient is everything that we drive for. The board measure me and us on cost per point. They measure us on overperformance. That is the golden thread in expectation. So for somebody as credible as the 21st Group to run their analysis and say that we are the most efficient over a prolonged period of time. I think that's pretty cool. That's really nice. I think, again, it goes back to lots of people have contributed to that, systems processes. But what we can't do is we can't sit here and celebrate that.

59:22Well, we've cracked the code. So the challenge is going to be how do we do that at the next level? But I look at our business plan. I look at the things that we have in play. We will be promoted with the smallest loss probably in the last decade. We will lose£2 million in the year that we got promoted. There are certain teams that lost£35 million, £15 million in going up. We've got to go and do the same thing we have at the next level. But efficiency and effectiveness is probably the two kind of buzzwords that we want around Lincoln City. That's a serious achievement. That's incredible. I hear some shocking numbers here.

1:00:01Which actually fed to a media quote that I saw. And you don't need to comment on it. It was just one of my favorites. It said, Lincoln City is English football's model club and the other clubs should learn from them, but they probably won't. I thought, that's brilliant. That was a media quote, not your own quote. Don't worry. The other bit I had, which feeds into something else, is that I think I'm right in saying you're the highest scoring side in England from set pieces. And I think part of the reason for that was the use of an AI tool. I mean, in my head, it's just set piece FC, EIE Arsenal dominating that, but you've even usurped it.

1:00:37Yeah, I think, so again, it goes back to what makes our boat go the fastest. So this is several years ago, our director, our sporting director and the team, it came out of like, how do we be really effective? And a number of years ago in football, because Pep did it, it became really, it become fashionable how to restart from a goal kick. You know, 20 years ago, it was how far can you punt it? and then all of a sudden you've got, you know, center backs rolling in and, you know, your six dropping down and whatever, and restarts became the thing. We just wanted to take that to the next level, you know, effectiveness in terms of restarts and throw-ins from set pieces.

1:01:16We just felt we could, quite frankly, we could weaponize that. And again, it goes back to how do then we be the absolute best and looking and embracing innovation. We work with a company to go and analyze, you know, millions and millions, tens of millions of corners, tens of millions of throw-ins and understand how we could best do it. Now, I'm not going to give away too much, but it was examples like short corners, quick short corners give you the best probability, but defining quick is under six seconds, more than six seconds, then it has the least probability. Delivering the ball into a certain area, the box, how you look.

1:01:51So now what it needed is it would need skilled practitioners to then go and translate that data. And it would also need a culture and environment within the training ground to really embrace and commit to wanting to do that. And I'm sure it's well known, but there aren't many footballers that love doing set piece training at the end of training and the repetition. So that required whole club buying from the players, the staff. So it wasn't just the intelligence. It was about how you apply it. And look, set pieces have become vogue now and there are going to be lots of teams that then go and replicate and try and do that.

1:02:29And that's what happens with the industry. It constantly then, you know, once somebody, you know, whoever, Arsenal, it wasn't us. We were the best of thieves. We copied somebody. We then just committed to that. You know, you have to then move with the times to then go, you know, what's next and how do you innovate? But yeah, you know, three, four years ago, we set out to be actually the best at set pieces for and against in the division. It was really cool to do that across Europe. Can I extend that? Because you've been excellent in another area. I spent a lot of time on the other side of the job trying to convince clubs to open up a little bit more budget to employ tools, technologies that are finding them a cutting edge in areas where it isn't necessarily geared towards performance, but is doing what we've actually talked about previously, trying to find those margins around the game that can be really valuable.

1:03:18But quite often the challenge with that always, and I understand this, it takes investment upfront to often see a return on that. yeah you've been pretty prominent shall we say as a football club you've had an entrepreneur in residence if i'm correct which for people who don't know is a very unfootball job but really is someone identified with the responsibility of finding and implementing technologies so how have you thought about that and balanced it as a risk is it an extension of the points you were making before saying we're just taking some things that we see as opportunities and thinking a bit differently.

1:03:50Yeah, I do think. And it does go back to the fact that we're almost liberated in order to be a bit quirky and do something different because of our status and what we're trying to achieve. So again, what happens in football, in English football, in any industry where you benchmark, I don't know where you draw the line, 116 clubs, 72, 92, whichever way, there is then like almost a cookie cutter scenario. This is what you're supposed to do. This is how you're going to. So when we looked at our whole innovation sphere and what we were going to do with that. That wasn't about trying to get on the front pages of the tech magazines or anything.

1:04:25That was about how do we shift the dial and how do we do something different that then net returns into the bank of performance in terms of investment. How does that help us do something different? And like Charlie, the truth is we've had lots of fails in that area. Oh, that's investing. Absolutely. But equally some of the successes that we've had and some of the things that we've picked up on, they've made the points of difference. So it goes back to, we probably, our biggest challenge in that area was when we weren't yet seeing any green shoots to have the commitment to almost double down and then bring in the entrepreneur in residence.

1:05:03And I remember when we did that and actually my biggest concern was, ah, that's going to look really knobby. Like that's going to look like, you know, like, oh, who do they think they are? And then it went back to it. Do you know what? Like it is going to help us. It is the right thing to do. So we're going to do it and we'll do it with pride. And everybody can say whatever they want about us. But I'm kind of cool and I'm fine with that. I just want to be really clear. That was definitely not from a place of, oh, let's go and do something different. It was just, it worked for us. And we went, okay, let's commit and let's do it with pride.

1:05:35And the stuff that we're starting to see come out of that, I know I'm talking in abstract terms here, but we've definitely had benefit from that from a commercial point of view already. we've definitely had benefit in a performance point of view already I can't tell you whether it's that much or that but we're having benefit I can't quantify and I'm sure it will go on to help us but yeah it's almost deliberately not played as front and centre just because we do we do understand that there has to be some level of conformity we have to you know we don't want to look like like we're trying to break the game but it's something that works for us in our setting Brilliant Liam it's so great to have you back in

1:06:19it's amazing genuinely like sitting here hearing something 20 months ago to hear that plan laid out as I said at the beginning and then to actually see it come to fruition and build up to something now which is even if you may have expected it in October 2024 I'm sure there was a level of reservation but honestly a huge huge congratulations to you to everyone at the club as you said full team effort and I hope for you the fans it's an amazing year next year so go and enjoy it and congratulations for operating in a way that clearly is doing a brilliant job in football thank you very much really appreciate your support thanks so much to Liam for joining us again to talk through the truly remarkable achievements of Lincoln this year this boringly consistent thing is so key to their success far too many clubs try and do things differently for the optics and sake of being unique because it may be the fashion what Liam has highlighted is that the only thing that really matters is knowing what factors your club is most capable of leveraging to try and create the success the fans crave.

1:07:17What is your club's top chance card? Probably something we should start running on the show from now on. A huge thank you to Liam again and I hope you enjoyed the show. Now if you want to see more from today's show you can do so by going to YouTube or any of our other social channels across Instagram, TikTok and now Substack. There are more snippets to share and bite-sized chunks to consume and whilst you're there please do like, subscribe and follow the show. As you will hear from your other favourite pods, it makes a huge difference when bringing you the best guests and conversations from around the world of sport, which is of course our endless aim.

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