Mark Fairbrother, Millwall Managing Director: ‘Is This The Most Misunderstood Club in Football?’ (Ep75)

35:24How is the general demand at the moment based on the capacities that you have? It's good. I mean, I think if you look at the home areas, we're over 80 % utilised over the course of the season. What we do have a challenge with, and again, it's one that, especially this year with the new deal from the EFL with Sky, where we have fixtures being moved or midweek fixtures, we have quite a variance between a Saturday at three and Tuesday night at 7.45. And that's a challenge. And it's one that we're working with our CRM company and going, how do we solve for that? That's not a challenge that anyone's been able to solve.

35:57But let's look at ways we can just be more creative next year because it's not fair on our season ticket holders who stick with us and show us all the loyalty. Then games are being disrupted and they can't attend. We need to make sure we find a way to make it as easy for people to come as they can. But also they want to come. If we're playing a club on a Tuesday night in the middle of December. They want to come because actually we're putting on a good show. It's enjoyable and hopefully we're up in the playoffs and they can't help but want to come. It's a catch-22 that, isn't it? Because you look at a media deal being improved and giving more money down the system, particularly in the championship, and that's fantastic for you as a club.

36:34But then actually you look at what it means. And if it does mean shifting matches, if it means putting them at less convenient times for core fans, then it's taking revenue away from you in other areas. It's putting another part of the business under a bit more stress than it may have been. How does it all come together, do you think? I think we've tracked it through this year. And actually, for the new TV deal, I think actually we were fairly lucky in terms of the mix of additional televised games. A lot more of them were away. But obviously, that impacts on the number of fans who can travel.

37:01And obviously, that could impact on the atmosphere it builds. And that's difficult because our traveling fans are as important as our home fans. But in terms of home games, we only had one additional game that was moved from a three o 'clock kickoff. and then a further one that was moved because of our progress in the FA Cup. So actually, the impact was a lot less than we thought. However, it was some of the showcase games that were moved. We had a game moved to a Sunday afternoon, which again is a fairly rare occurrence. That impacts on people's ability to travel down. We had a game New Year's Day just after lunch kickoff.

37:33Not great because obviously everyone's hung over and also everyone had work the following day. So obviously it does impact on attendances and even first and last game of the season and being earlier for televised broadcast, that does impact on people's ability. If you've got kids, if you live outside of the den, you've got kids playing football or rugby on a Saturday morning, then trying to get in to watch a match, it is a challenge. So it's making sure that we're conscious of that. But then what can we do for the games at three o 'clock? Let's try and maximise the opportunity and actually make it as enjoyable as we can for people.

38:06Going back to not being Millwall-E as part of that, you did something pretty cool recently with mobile networks and being the first club. well actually i'm explaining it probably because i'll probably ruin it yeah what what happened with the mobile network well um it was it was one of the things uh commercial guys were looking at so it's a white label product sat on vodafone 3 but in effect we badge it up and it links into obviously we get some revenue share from there but also we get the customer data which is really important for us in terms of understanding the products that customer uh fans want i hate calling fans customers but it goes into everyone has an issue with it it is and it's it's one that obviously it's a crm system so it's all geared around that but for us it's understanding fan behavior because again that will help us when we're going out to market in terms of looking at us as a brand and go well we've got x y and z as products but also it got such wide exposure and it broke down a lot of the millwally kind of misconceptions i mean the sun wrote a huge article criticizing it saying I think Barcelona were the first in Europe and then us and kind of, I suppose, trying to ridicule it slightly.

39:14But at the same time, they quoted the full press release. They quoted the details about the company. And actually, for them, brand awareness was brilliant. Why would they do that? What's the negative? I think it's just, unfortunately, some people like to pick up on us as a negative. And especially some media sources, I think they thrive on negativity. And it's a shame. They need probably a better hobby in their lives. But unfortunately, we know that we're a brand that people will enjoy kind of attacking. And actually, I've said this now. It's like, let's be brave. Let's put our head above the parapet.

39:45Let's do things. Because if they want to attack us, you can attack us and go, well, I remember such and such on Panorama in the 70s. And go, get over it. That was 40 years ago. Look at what we're doing now. Look at the work we do in the community. Look at us as a club. Look at our fans. Actually, this is something special. And the fact that you keep throwing things up from the 80s, 70s, whenever it is, probably shows your own ignorance more than anything. Can we properly talk about this? Because it's what makes part of this conversation so significant and different, which is that image and the brand perception of Millwall.

40:18You know, an incredible fan base, but a fan base that hasn't had the best reputation over the years. Incredible club, similar thing. When often fans have a bad reputation, it's put on the rest of this club. But as you said, I'm even probably taking that off historical growing up, hearing things. And once those opinions are formed, right, they're formed, it's very hard to shift in people's minds. You have to proactively go out of your way to do that. How is this club changing? How has it changed now so that it is something, as you've said, that is not just something that you can be proud of, but it is a leading club, a leading sports team?

40:50I think for us and something and not just myself, but people previous to me, it's just by our actions, just by what we do. not by your own view of what we are. So kind of a couple of good examples here. We've, since 2020, we've had an ED &I committee and it's been something that before it was brought into the EFL's rules, we set up a committee, we've got a full-time ED &I officer who works between the club and the community trust. But that is because the community that we serve is so diverse in Southwark and Lewisham. Actually, we need to mirror that in terms of how we operate as a community asset.

41:25So actually, that's something that we've taken really seriously. And again, a lot of that has been born out of people having a misconception. And also, there are incidents. We do have incidents. We will have those, but we have a zero tolerance policy. And we will say if there is an incident, we'll put our hands up and go, yeah, we need to do better. And that's part and parcel of it. That's one thing. And then things like on environment sustainability, we've got Silver Award in the EFL Green Club and we're seen as one of the leaders in that. That's just what we do. We're not doing it for PR purposes.

41:58We're not doing it to win a new sponsor on X, Y and Z. It's actually just what we do. There's a lot of things that we do as a club that are the right thing to do. One of the things I've said to our staff this year is we just need to be proud of it. Don't shy away from it. don't go we can't talk about it because people throw hooliganism from the 1980s or throw this match at us from whenever it was it's like we've got to acknowledge that people will always use that and unfortunately there's some clubs that will always have that association until you change that mindset and prove enough times that actually what we do is something special and actually we go far and beyond other clubs because it's the right thing to do and especially being in our local community.

42:41Our community trust is such a big vital part of the club that we've probably not shouted enough because we've been embarrassed that people will attack it and actually we shouldn't be. Let's just keep showcasing what we do because actually it's the right thing to do and we need also people to know what we do because it increases the reach of the work we do in our community. But you are really in essence right you're fighting an uphill battle when it comes to that because everyone who will look at by the sounds of what you've just said particularly with reporting they'll just look at it with a lens that is different to how they view other clubs.

43:11So a lot of those initiatives, you have to work that extra bit harder to make people realise why it's so influential and why it's important for you to do, whether right or wrong. That's just a reality. It is. But I think if 10 sources report the truth and the positive work we're doing and one decides to keep reporting and peddling their kind of narrow-minded views, then eventually that gets drowned out by actually the truth and the positive stories. And for us, it's very much the good stuff we're doing. Let's be brave. let's actually talk about it let's not shy away from it and actually when things don't go wrong again we front up and we go look if we don't do something right or there's an incident we hold our hands up but actually like anything we need to all learn from it and there'll be incidents we've got an fa charge at the moment and that will be coming through in the next month or so and that's that's a common one that a number of clubs have had was that for the mateta no for the absurd chelsea chant uh at crystal palace and again i see west ham have just been through that process but for us we will learn we will take lessons but also and i implore the fa that we need to do more that it needs to be a collective not just throw a fine at a club and throw the book at us what can we do as an fa what can we do as an efl around education because it's a precluded speech and look personally i'm a gay man and i have my own views on that as a speech but it shouldn't be something that we get labelled as a homophobic club.

44:35We've got two gay football teams, which no other club in the EFL has got. And actually, it's something that we have not shouted about because it's just what we do. And I think that's something that I've said we need to sometimes own it, own our mistakes, learn from it, move on. But if it's something like this that's a societal issue, let's look at what we can do to drive change, what we can do to drive education, because that's the only way that you can actually stamp it out. If you keep throwing books at clubs and keep punishing individuals does that really change anyone and is that falling on the fa is that down to the i think it's got to be a collective i think it has to be a collective between clubs between the leagues between the fa and it has to be a will to actually go how can we mitigate this rather than how can we just keep punishing clubs and again this is my personal view but i think it would be in a much better position if everyone worked together rather than blame it's blame we move on to the next one it feels if it feels bureaucratic it feels like a right and wrong how does anyone ever learn from it it probably just doubles down those fans who've said it and again if we have to come out with a strong statement how do you then move on from there and actually drive change and i think it should be perhaps it's wider than football perhaps it's it's looking at going we're in a society at the moment where it's one view or another it we We tend not to have, I suppose, a grey between black and white.

45:58And I think that's when we go, how do we get that back to where there was a little bit more, I suppose, common sense prevailing on things. Well, football, as you said, it's absolutely not just Millwall, right? Football just unfortunately seems to be a place where a lot of this can boil and come to the forefront, which is a problem for the sport, a massive problem, because it's such a popular thing. But I think it's also because if you think people are watching, people are watching on TV. I mean, our incident was live on BBC One. So that's where that was triggered. Obviously, there was other incidents going on at the time, which were everyone's priority.

46:32But again, that was a huge challenge for us as a club when you had five or six different incidents all going on at the same time. Obviously, what we were doing to deal with those at and away ground and obviously live on BBC, everyone's finished watching Saturday Kitchen and then come along. And unfortunately, then rather than 300 ,000 people who are experts on whatever it is on Twitter, you've got 7 million people who are all passing comment and passing judgment. And actually, it's then cutting through that to go, let's actually address each of these individual areas. And we can't be the ones to solve society's ills.

47:05We're one football club. Let's look at it wider. As is often the case with a lot of these situations, unfortunately, it's very small minorities and very big groups of people. Do you try and speak to the broader fan base so that they can be more proactive in helping you make sure that these people are not a part of, let's say in that instance, a travelling support and therefore a smaller number of supporters than maybe in the home. You don't tend to get it really in home stadiums. It's quite often in travelling fans. Yeah. But does that come down to the relationship you can also build with the majority of those fans to help them help you?

47:35I think so. Yeah. I mean, in terms of our ED9 committee, we've got members of fan groups. We've got members from our official supporters club who sits on there. So, again, a lot of what we talk through, and that does include, obviously, planning for higher-risk games, where we know that there is a higher risk of incidents, normally away games. It's actually, that's part of the pre-planning work, so that actually that can get communicated out, so we can have common messages. But it's a difficult one because, again, it could be one person or a small group of people. And we've found that when we've had incidents this year at the Den, And it's been people who are not necessarily known to us as fans.

48:11It's maybe their first trip here, sometimes from elsewhere in the UK, elsewhere in Europe. And we've had a few incidents of things like that. And again, that is just people who perhaps come to see the game based on their misconception of the club and what our fan base is. And then cause issues. And actually, it's all driven from there. But again, every stadium has a zero tolerance policy. and for us it's that's so important because if there's 18 000 people and then there's one person being an idiot the other 17 999 need to feel safe and that's a big part of what we do i mean it sounds like the fans actually are looking historically compared to what it is now this is way more progressive than they would ever be given credit for oh completely completely and i think it's only when you see what goes on in a match show you see the fans you talk to the fans you realize that actually everyone everyone's the same it's like no one's any different actually we've got fans from all different backgrounds and actually you talk to them and i've never felt so welcome i mean i wouldn't have come back for a second stint at the club had i not felt so welcome and the fans are brilliant it's a big part of what we do and it's a big part of why everyone's so enthused to work here and the community you mentioned is such a huge part of it the relationships that you're building there why are they so important for for the club i think you look at especially being a club in london and the community does move and evolve probably more rapidly than anywhere else and again from working in a city in the southwest you've got probably 10 generations who've lived pretty much within the same two or three streets and will probably live for another 10 generations whereas in london obviously a lot of our historic fans would have been south london dot workers a lot of them would have moved out to different parts of london kent essex sorry wherever all over the country and actually new people move in and again because it's london it's a younger city with people not spending as long there so our community changes every census that's undertaken the makeup of our communities in lewisham and southwark could change quite significantly and it's how do we operate in there obviously we're also in a we've got a number of deprived areas around so what can we do as a football club using the brand of millwall and millwall football club and the community trust what can we do in terms of assisting in those areas so that could be through delivery of soccer camps uh soccer camps always pains me calling it hello america where does that come from i don't know i think that must that must be from uh i must be from being a kid and obviously everyone going to camp america soccer camps but then it's things like school meal provisions it's obviously work we've been doing with local schools so it's so important and that is just because it's the right thing to do we are part of the community and we should give back and we should use the power of football to help people who are less able so be that young people be that for elderly people so we've got a weekly coffee morning and we've had those running since covid and it's a really important thing for people in the community to come in and actually just have a chat have a coffee have a couple of pastries and um it's a social thing it's really important but then widening in that to go well what else can we do how else can we integrate ourselves as much as possible in a community that isn't the same 300 families that it's been for 20, 30 years.

51:26I should have asked this earlier when we were talking about players, but how influential is that academy in being a place for young people to come and act out their love, gain the experience, hopefully make it to the top end of football? Yeah, no, hugely important. And again, London's so competitive. You'll have kids who live half a mile from the den who'll be in Arsenal or Chelsea's academy system. So for us, having that footprint in, obviously, we've got facilities at the Den in our community trust building, but also over at Blackheath, our academy centre, actually being right in the community is so important.

52:02Because again, if you're growing up, Romain S is a great example, grew up in Deptford, which is a couple of miles from the Den and from Blackheath. He obviously joined us at 12, was all the way through to when he left Crystal Palace earlier this year. but had we not had an academy site there that was convenient for him getting a bus in or whatever it will be would he have joined charlton would he have joined crystal palace would he have gone to late norway and who knows and actually it's so important to have that footprint in the community because these kids live and breathe um football and if you can see the den from your bedroom window hopefully you've got aspirations to want to play there is the competitiveness tough when there's so many options there's so many clubs in london local areas looking around it for you to really get the great talent you always want to have the best players coming through your academies you do and i think you need to show the players that there is a development route for them because if you're joining the academy on the basis of don't worry join the millwall academy man city always come in and hoover the best players up so if you're good you'll go to man city if that's the reputation you've got you don't get the the right relationship but if you can then say look we've had a player who's come through at this age played in the first team we've had this many players make their debut this year who've been through our academy system people can then look if you're if you're a family of a 13 year old boy looking going well actually i can see somebody in the starting lineup who looks like me he's gone through my journey actually there's that affiliation which is so important and i think it's one that you probably don't see in kind of the cat one academies in the premier league because so few of them make it through it's a hero story isn't it when you've got and again from working at aston villa jack greelish comes through absolute hero when he was at the club because he's come through the academy system but there's one of those in a generation you don't tend to see that as often whereas in the championship and league one league two a lot more you see that there is more of a flow through from the academy and it's so important but you need to make sure that you're getting the right people in who want to be in there and part of that is giving them a reason to join you versus somebody else and i guess when you're a club that's so entrenched and his community.

54:08You always want that representation to be shown on the pitch on a Saturday. Yeah, and you can see it. I mean, the fans absolutely idolised Romain when he played for us and even when he was playing for Palace in the Cup, he went over and applauded the fans at the end and he's come back to the den a few times to watch games and you can see that there's that relationship. It's rare to maintain a positive relationship after a move like that, I'd imagine. Completely. I mean, you're playing in the Premier League, you're kind of, I suppose it's a world away but actually there's that affiliation back with us as a club that's always going to be special to him.

54:38And I think probably for players, the club that they've been through as a child has a bigger affiliation than an employer that they join on a one-year, two-year, three-year contract. I just want to bring this all back. It's amazing talking about it in the context of Millwall. But so much of this is influenced by wider football and some of the things that are going on affecting all of the clubs. And you look at the success you've had last season, and I imagine now what you've referenced you want to build on. How does the current structures of football, Premier League, Inter-Championship, parachute payments of clubs, being able to compete at that top level, how difficult is it to really compete in these levels when there is such a financial imbalance, shall we say?

55:18Oh, it's hugely, hugely difficult. Because again, you look at, especially the Championship up to the Premier League, you look at the clubs the last two or three years, it's been consistently two out of three are in receipt of parachute payments. And that makes it really difficult, because then you're hoping that you'll be that Luton Town type story that you'll get promoted or Ipswich Town last year. That's really difficult. We all know that's really difficult. Obviously, there's a lot of talk about the football governance bill and the backstop powers and the regulator and all those things. I think we're all hopeful, but we also know that the Premier League will not be hoping for the same outcome as the EFL.

55:57The National League will not be hoping for the same outcome as the EFL. So I think it all depends on how good and efficient the regulator is. And I think until we see that in action, it's going to take a number of years to actually start working through. I think the big challenge will be the haves and haves not with the parachute payments. That is such an important tool to any club that's coming down. We saw it a couple of years ago. We did a quick bit of a back of a fact packet calculation going into the new seasons when I was here before. and we estimated that Southampton was starting a quarter of a billion better off than we were because the parachute payments plus all the player sales they just made.

56:36And again, there'll be some payments to make on there so it won't be a net quarter of a billion. But that's a different - Quarter of a billion? But then they had so many player sales through. Again, they'd have to reinvest and buy new players but it's not a bad place to start. I mean, I'm sure if we had a quarter of a billion guaranteed revenue or income coming in through the door we'd be pretty happy and pretty confident that we were going to go straight back up. Well, if we go back to what we were talking about with the squad costs, let's just say rules, if they can claim revenue, let's just say of 250, it means that even under regulation, their spending power is significantly better.

57:11Obviously, some of that would have been just transfer fees received, which wouldn't have necessarily been profit. But again, they'll be starting with a five times increase on central revenues than us because of their parachute payments. a lot of it will be how they're structured i suppose elsewhere in the business and we also know this and i know this from working in the premier league in the championship we have one person doing three jobs in the premier league you'll have 20 people doing the one job and you do naturally just start to just go i just need one person there and i mean when i got to aston villa we had a finance team of 20 and they were brilliant but did it need 20 i went to gloucester rugby there was a finance team of three outside and we got everything out on the same deadlines we got everything out to the same level of rigor we got everything to the board we had more board meetings so there was more information than we produced and you look and go you you cut your cloth accordingly but a team of 20 that was naturally just expanding because of being in the premier league but actually okay there's more numbers there's 40 000 people in rather than 15 000 people in but at the same time a sale's a sale it's all from the same system it's all one payment into a bank account.

58:17You don't need five times the amount of staff just to keep things ticking over on the same level. But parachute payments aren't necessarily helping these clubs. One of the most concerning and damaging parts of football at the moment, which is consecutive seasons of all three promoter clubs getting relegated right back down. The sustainability of them as clubs in the Premier League is not assured at all. Now it's almost, I feel like there's a fear of spending when they get to the Premier League because we know how difficult it is to stay up. And if you come down with an even bigger cost base, that's not easy.

58:45I agree to some extent, but I think this has been happening already for many years. If you look at Norwich City's business model of 10 years ago, that was all predicated on, we'll get promoted, we won't overspend. And actually, if we stay up, fantastic. If we go down, we will be able to get back up quickly because we've not overcommitted ourselves. And actually, it should be self-fulfilling that you then, it's obviously great when that does happen. But if you don't get back up into those promotion spots, then it is a challenge. but i think clubs have been doing that i think what we're seeing is just the haves and have-nots in even in the premier league is starting to stretch out so much further than 15 years ago when i worked in the premier league it was a bit closer and for us we made a real stab at going for top four for three of the years i was there we never made it we had a few days in there again but um we spent as if we were a top four club and then man city happened and they spent as if they're a top four club and all of a sudden you've got six teams trying to spend top four money and then the money into the new deal into the champions league and then the europa league got so much more that all of a sudden you can't get there yeah and then for us it was like well let's settle for just below that level and actually settling for just below that level we dropped like a stone down the table and it was really difficult then to correct things because it was structurally built in around the meritocracy and around if you're in your competing europe how much of a difference it makes versus the clubs who were just trying to fight to survive you look at the premier league this year it was two tables really a european football and but actually i'd say two tables three tables because you have the three relegated clubs so far away from everyone else yeah i mean any other year they would have been relegated but for the fact that it is now so much more difficult and it's going to be a challenge for the three clubs going up but at the same time And we all want them to be a success because we want to see that EFL clubs can go up there and can stand toe to toe and actually stay up there.

1:00:44And you look at the ones who've done it really well. Brighton, Brentford have got up there. Bournemouth. Bournemouth. And not had to spend stupid amounts, but have done it in a different way. And again, I think that's what we're all trying to look at and go, how do we do that? How do we find a new different way? Because the problem is people are doing different ways. And once everyone's doing the same different way, it's no longer a different way. Do you have to fight the urge? Because we mentioned many consecutive years in the championship. And as with anything, you spend X amount of time somewhere, you're eventually going to get to the stage where you just go, come on, what's next?

1:01:20What's the next thing? The next thing for you is Premier League. Yeah. But to get there, we know how realistically you have to get there. Do you have to fight the urge to, should we say, compromise the good business or the better business that you're running with promotion chasing exploits? I'd say for us, no. I think we've got a very sensible structure in terms of our board and the ambitions they've got. Everyone is geared up. We will be there. That's that focus. But we do it our way. We do it in a sustainable way. We do not do it. We do not sell the family silver just for that one shot because it's just going to come back and bite us if it doesn't happen.

1:02:01And I think you see too many stories is where clubs do do that. They do overstretch. And actually, if it pays off, brilliant. Wolves on promotion. What was it? 100 million lost the year they were promoted. Ruben Neves. I mean, yeah, the players they had were absolutely amazing. World-class players, Premier League players. But had they not got promoted, who knows what could have happened. Derby County under Frank Lampard. Absolutely brilliant players. I got to watch them in the playoff final against Villa and got to see Villa go up. But again, Villa at that point, after spending almost grand bank cuts, it's one that you see where you do overstretch.

1:02:42You're never going to be able to, I suppose, compete if you then have to try and rein it back. That's a very responsible, finance-driven answer. Yes, it is. Well done. I've got splinters from sitting on the fence on that one. No, it's great. It's great. Let's do a quick fire round if you're up for it. Finish off. Go on. So go on. Let's be nice. What's the best part of your job? I think people, either the fans or the staff, big part of where you come in and where you kind of wake up and love what you do. 3pm blackout, do you think it still benefits the system? I think unfortunately people's fire sticks are far too good for it these days.

1:03:18So actually let's look at how we kind of evolve it because I think there's now a growing pressure to actually address that because I'd rather we had a full stadium at three o 'clock than having to play two o 'clock on a Sunday afternoon. The critique is always it takes away from the clubs. You're a prime club to talk about it, I guess, because you're in London with a huge amount of competition for fans. Do you think it would take away or the responses that you see from fans suggest that you'd have no issues with attendance? No, I think we've got to make sure we keep delivering something that people want to come to.

1:03:50So you want to get down here early. You want to have a few drinks. Actually, we have an entertaining fan zone. The game's good. The atmosphere is good. There's some good entertainment. Actually, it's a day out. And if you can make it as enjoyable as you can, then you can't get that watching it at home on TV. You've mentioned your mobile network, which is awesome. What's the next, well, un-Milwally move that you want to make? That's a good question. There's lots of things we've got in the pipeline. That you can talk about. Not a lot that we can, not a lot that are at fruition, but I think, yeah, watch this space.

1:04:22We'll be still trying things. And are there any areas in football in general, if we take that out of Millwall, that you think are ripe for better practice, better technology? I think it's connectivity in and around stadiums. We were talking about this before the podcast. We fully Wi-Fi enabled Kingshome when I was there, but we couldn't commercialise it. And it was one of those things that it was an opportunity lost because actually a fully Wi-Fi enabled stadium with super fast broadband that all 16 ,000 people could stream at the same time. What we actually was able to put was RefLink on everyone's mobile phone app so they could listen to the ref.

1:04:58People were able to gamble and not gambling on rugby, which was disappointing. But the whole idea would be gearing up so that people could then use it towards food and drink, potentially in their seats, obviously gambling so that there was more engagement. but then how can we kind of improve that experience with Wi-Fi? That's something that you see stadiums doing, but the problem is we're doing it, but we're doing it as a, this is a really good idea, full stop, rather than how do we commercialise it so that actually it's an enhancement to people on a match day rather than you can now stream Sky Sports News and see what the other scores are.

1:05:29We actually haven't mentioned it specifically, but we've danced around it with wages and transfer fees and inflation being an issue in the business of football. whether it's squad control cost caps whether it's salary cost caps what do you think is the best way that we could handle this issue? I think from working under a couple of different regimes and again we had cost caps in Formula E we had salary caps in rugby I like salary caps when we were looking at it during Covid I helped the EFL on some thoughts and feedback on where it doesn't work but actually it creates a more level playing field and I think actually it's a good way of bringing in a little bit of discipline in the problem is that goes against other forms of competitiveness and that has to be brought in across the whole of football rather than one league doing it you just look at everyone and rugby is a good example quite strict uh salary cap now in premiership rugby so players leave to go to france because the cap's a lot looser so it means that the earning potential is higher so it has to be a structural thing that is brought down across all of sport it's hard though isn't I always look at it, we've had Maheta Malango, a PFA CEO, and naturally the union of players is not keen for salary caps.

1:06:40And I understand it, there's always going to be the argument around that. But if you enforce it through something like the squad cost controls and you can only spend 85%, it's an unlabeled salary cap that you're placing, right? Of course it is. And I think it needs to reward and recognise talent. It needs to not be too prohibitive. But at the same time, for everyone, if it's a case of, well, we go unregulated and we go unchecked and people still keep spending, it's short-term gain and it's going to be long-term pain because we'll see more clubs struggling. That naturally then, the market will control itself.

1:07:14And actually, if we found 10 clubs struggling in the championship, that will push everyone's wages down because everyone, and you see that in rugby union, obviously three clubs go and bust out the 13. that has had a negative impact on salaries because there's more players, there's less clubs. We don't want that. That would be disastrous for sport in general if everyone was then all of a sudden having to, I suppose, wind back 20, 30 years of growth of the sport. Go on. Finally, let's excite the fans. How are you approaching next season? What are the changes that you're making to really make, should we say, a really good push to build on the successes you've had this year?

1:07:52I think it's watch this space. come the 31st of august we'll have i think we'll have a really good squad and i think that's the bit that excites us all i think we've got some really good um players that we're looking at and i think they'll bring different benefits to the squad so leadership they'll bring different things around the areas we've identified as where we probably need to improve on and i think we're going into it with our eyes wide open which is exciting i'm either going to look really happy at the end of august i'm going to look absolutely kind of browbeaten that we've not achieved it but I think we're going in the right direction and that's the bit that gets all of us excited.

1:08:29Bookmark this. There you go. Yeah. The words to live and die by. Yeah. There's confidence and that's what we like. Your eyes lit up as you said it, which is perfect. Look, Mark, it's brilliant. Thank you so much for coming in. No, no. Thank you for having me. Having this chat is amazing. So yeah, really appreciate it and look forward to following how you guys get on. Thank you. Thank you so much to Mark for joining us today. This is a team that has long had to deal with many negative connotations. And for an executive like Mark to come out and talk about trying to change that image of the team while also looking to build the values that are now intrinsically linked with this new version of Millwall, the future looks bright for this club continuing to push for Premier League participation.

1:09:10We look forward to watching what happens next season and thank you so much for tuning in. Now if you want to hear more from today's show you can do so by going to YouTube and typing in Business of Sport. But before we leave you, some words from our valued partners. This is digital fitness coaching at its peak. I'm so excited for us to partner with Runner, a relationship that's going to get us all up and out there, me included, pacing the streets, woodlands, parks, beachfronts, but backed up by elite level insight and accessibility. This is the kind of coaching that used to be reserved for the pros.

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