Michael Beale, Fmr Rangers, QPR, Sunderland Manager: 'Does English Culture Suppress Maverick Talent?' (Ep82)

23:50Is that a fair point? When I went to work in Brazil, I was fascinated. You can imagine my journey of going through youth development. I'd worked with some players from South America but obviously World Cup comes on Brazil's everyone's second favourite team after England or whatever your home country is and now I have a chance to go and work there they had the most beautiful academy Cotillo brought through lots of players Cafu David Luiz Oscar Kaká Casimiro for example and so I go and see all these young children playing I'm fascinated by the culture of why they produce the type of players they do and how our players are and culture plays a big part culture within the family but culture just in general of the country and going to look in Brazil if we ever took off a number 10 the hankies were out the boos were up it didn't mean if we was holding on to a game or not and our culture has been around hard work discipline conformity to the team so therefore we are we can lose that then if you go into the individual clubs I remember being a young coach and Carlo Ancelotti is sort of my coaching idol if you like I love everything that Carlo's done and And he came over once.

24:56I was coaching the under-14s, most awkward situation because there's Carlo. And at the time, I was a really young coach coming through. And I think now when I look as a first-team coach or as an assistant manager or as a head coach, when I watch the under-18s or second team, I'm just looking for someone who's a bit different, who I think might be able to play for us, not today, but in the future. And then I'll look at, are the players happy? And then I'll look at the coach, how he's set up the team. Is the team cohesive? Does it move around? But maybe there's an element of young coaches now wanting their team under 13, 14 to look like the finished article.

25:34So if you're a young coach working in a professional club, you want your team to look like a Guardiola team or a Klopp team too early. We can be guilty of coaching adult football with our young. And there's definitely development football and there's performance football. You can merge the two as children get older, but likewise with sports science. If we bring sports science in too early, then are we going to ever have two-footed players? Because there's an element of kicking the ball against a wall a thousand times to get that weaker foot to the level of your natural foot. Where did you go to Brazil?

26:05It was a lifelong admission to work outside. My coaching idols were when I started Sir Bobby Robson and Terry Venables because they were British coaches that went overseas and learned the second language. I didn't feel that British coaches were valued at the time. I still think that's the case. I would like to see more British coaches go across and learn the second language. So it's been my dream from when I started of a clear career goal. And when the opportunity comes to go to Brazil, it was so out there. I went over to visit and once I saw it, I just had to do it. I was the first British coach to work at that level as assistant manager at a club the size, or any club in Brazil, but Sao Paulo is the size of Liverpool or Man United.

26:47It's a huge, huge club and it was a massive privilege. I was working with an icon, Rogério Senne, 1 ,200 plus games in one club. The goal-scoring keeper, wasn't he? Yeah, his book of records and it was his first job. And when he asked me to go, it was a strange phone number come up on my phone after a Liverpool under 23's game when he asked me. I would have regretted that for the rest of my life if I hadn't gone. From the business side and the structural side of a club out there compared to the ones you'd worked in, how were they similar and what was slightly different? The clubs in Brazil, they're not owned by any organisation.

27:20They're all member clubs, so they vote for their president, and the president gets three or four years, similar to how Barcelona works. So they're essentially amateur clubs, although they're a professional football team. That's how they're managed. It was my first time at first-team football as well. So I've done all these years in academy, 10 years Chelsea, five years Liverpool. It was my first time at first-team football, and the Wild West of that, you know, the transfers in and out. We were looking to build a young squad. We brought nine players from the under-19s team. One of them was Eder Militao, who's obviously gone to Porto, Real Madrid, and had a wonderful career.

27:53And it was fantastic. Jogero was an icon, you know. And in Brazil, they treat their icons very, very special. He can't go anywhere in his day-to-day. He's held in that high regard. But it was fascinating for me. Obviously, you're learning from Brazilian players, but we had Uruguayans, Argentinians. We had Diego Lugano, the old Uruguay captain, who's the butcher of the defence at the back. And I just learned a lot about their culture and how they saw things. Culture's culture. There's good things and bad things around it. I find it quite hard because in Brazil, it is an export country of football.

28:26They bring back the old legends. As I say, they treat so well. But the offset of that is they sell their talent early. And we sold that. And it's fair to say I didn't enjoy that process. And I left after that. And then, okay, you're then going into stages where you're starting to look at first team management. so all of this has been built up you've got a career based on youth and working with talent and most importantly having time to do a lot of that work QPR you get the chance what was the transition like? The transition was very very easy as a football coach because I had done 193 games at Rangers as a first team coach for Steven Gerrard who was fantastic with me had then gone to Aston Villa in the Premier League a couple of times with Covid Stephen was unable to be there, so I'd led the match day feel as well.

29:17So I was more than ready. There'd been opportunities prior to that, but QPR just felt right. I'm obviously a London boy and I'd been away from home for a long time and I know a little bit about the club. I was very comfortable with the remit they gave me as well. And that remit was? When I sat with the owners, the big thing for me, if I was going to step out of being an assistant manager, was I wanted clarity. clarity you know clarity on everything and that clarity then would give me a peace of mind to go to work and then i could give them the best version of me i wanted to know the remit the owners there were fantastic i have a real good relationship with them that's continued now after i've left and the opportunity was they were a young squad they didn't have money to buy but you could do loans and use the investment they had they wanted harmony in their club between the first team and the academy and they wanted to play in the style of QPR from the ages before which was brilliant for me because they like Mavericks you know QPR is a club that's had Mavericks down the years you can stand bowls Rodney Marsh that's been Adele Terrap and so we had two young players in Ilias Chair and Chris Willock I was really excited to go and work with I think you have to see yourself in the team that you're going to go and coach you have to be excited before you go in the building it shouldn't be you're going to go in there and change everything so I was very happy with the remit they gave me.

30:36They wanted harmony in the club. They wanted to play good football in line with the QPR way. And they wanted to stay up and progress. And I was like, is that it? I'm so excited. Let's go. And it was a wonderful period. How much of an interview is you interviewing the club as well as you obviously being interviewed by the owners? I think it should be 50-50. I think you should be going in there and seeking answers, of course, because ultimately you're working for those owners. You're working for the fans and you're working with the players, of course, and the staff, but it will only last for the amount of time that the owners are happy with you in terms of are you progressing their club towards the direction they would like to.

31:13So the questions I ask is what is the vision they have for the club? And obviously you have to believe that you can fill that gap for them. And then you're happy to be judged on what's being said in the meeting. So the big question for me is like, okay, I want clarity on like, are we the big club in this league? Are we the underdog or the survivor? How does our squad look then? How do you want us to play football in line with that? I think the underdog's a great place to be, by the way, to be the silver medalist and jump in. I think it's a great place to be. Then, okay, how are we going to promote?

31:45Are we going to buy or are we going to develop? How are we going to get around it? How are we PR in this? What is the stability you're going to have around me? Because that's very important. You share your way of working. And then what's the remit? What's the time scale? And I think you have to be very, very comfortable with those things. I think the conversations have to be long and I think you have to ask the awkward questions. And I love that part of it. I love talking about football. So obviously I've been a head coach three times, but I've been in many more meetings and that meeting clubs and have said no or it hasn't been the right time.

32:22But I'm always fascinated about drilling down with the owners on exactly what they want. Player trading, transfers, budgets, etc. I'd imagine comes into a lot of those conversations with a lot of managers. But you having your roots in coaching, player development may slightly change how you had those conversations. Were you really looking at some of the clubs that had a real opportunity to promote that talent where you could work with some of those players and give them the opportunities in these teams? I wanted some guarantees around staffing because I'm huge on coaching ratios. It started when I was coaching the kids under six.

32:53I wanted a one to six, one to eight coaching ratio, more balls and players. It's all the same now at first team level. You're just working with adults, but I'm getting older. So the gaps actually pretty much staying the same. But my big thing was around, look, this is the way I want to work. I believe in you versus yourself. I've got to manage a squad of 25, 30 players. That's very difficult for one person. I want to bring a lot of the development work I've done at Chelsea and Liverpool into the first environment. These young players now, even up to the age of 30, have been through the academy system.

33:24So they're used to it. They're expecting it. They're demanding the individual work and also the care and time. So for me, it's like, this is how I want to work with my staff. Will you support me on that? I'm happy to take some staff that are inside the club. but I do want someone to look over the defenders, the midfielders, the forwards, to do workshops with them, to cut video, to really focus on the individual within the team. And I call it water in the grass. How does one person get around the whole squad? And so you need your staff. So it's selling that, it's selling a model of a way of working and if you can find agreement on that, fantastic.

33:59You can certainly hear new ideas or adaptations of that you're willing to accept but at the same time you have to know how you work best. and that's how I work best. I always love the conversations that come when a manager changes and it always comes into the backroom staff as well and you see these massive groups of people moving and following around. You had Steven Gerrard at Rangers, you had him at Aston Villa, you've done recently at Al-Essifac. Why is it important that that consistency runs through? Is it as simple as saying we just know how each other work? I think you have to know what type of manager you're going to be and I've spoke to a lot of ex-players and when Steven asked me to go he was very clear on what type of manager you wanted to be and then what type of staff he needed.

34:38He chose very, very well in his first job at Rangers and that staff stayed together for the initial period at Aston Villa as well. And Stephen wanted to stand back and he needed a hands-on coach. And I will always be a hands-on coach because that's what I've been doing for 20 years, why Stephen's been that icon, my favourite player when I was watching him. And so it was... More so than Frank, because a Chelsea fan. Yeah, like Stephen was someone I had such an admiration for. Obviously, as a Chelsea fan, Frank Lampard's a favourite, but Stephen was so immaculate in his career. And then when I went to Liverpool and watched him train and had the opportunity to maybe be around one or two sessions, when he asked me to go and work with him, we never got past hello.

35:18It was like the first conversation. So when I asked him, he knew I was on the road to being a manager. When he asked me to go and join him, he was very clear in what he wanted and I was very happy. And that's why I say the clarity is a big thing. Clarity in any... You try to give it to players. You try to give them clarity on their role and then it gives them a peace of mind. They might not always like the clarity, but it gives them peace of mind. And that allows people to perform and bring the best version of themselves. And Stephen never budged from what he asked me to do. And it brought the best out in me and it freed his energy up for what he wanted to do.

35:51So it wasn't just us. There was a management team around it as well. Gary McAllister was hugely influential. And Jordan Milsson, Tom Colshaw, the other people that was involved at Rangers and Aston Villa were hugely inspirational. but I learned a lot from Stephen in that regard. This is a massive change though for you and your life and your family and everything that comes around it just to follow someone. So I'd imagine there is more again to this than just you going, okay, yeah, I'll follow you wherever it is. So let's say you go from Rangers to Aston Villa. As the team, as a discussion point, how does that work really from its most simple form?

36:22Is Stephen sitting down with you saying, I've got this opportunity, or we've got this opportunity, we look at this collectively. Who wants to come, who maybe doesn't? I know the club rangers will maybe make a decision based on who the incoming manager is. It's not as if you could just stay there. But what does that process look like? I've had that both, obviously, with Stephen more than once because it wasn't the only opportunity he had. But I've had it with my staff as well when I form my own staff. And you are very mindful of that as a manager, you know, with your staff moving around. And also, your staff in one place is not always the ideal staff for the next place and the part of the journey you're going on next and the size of the club.

36:57And also as you go down the leagues, I really feel for some managers because you never have your ideal staff. You know, good people are in good jobs and, you know, they may have roots in a certain part of the country and you're going down to another part where, you know, the salary you're going to offer. So it's never perfect. But I think what you have to do is you have to choose for what type of coach do you want to be and then how do you, your blind spots, if you like. I think as a manager now, you have to have a good handle on everything. My education at Chelsea and Liverpool around sports science, around analysis has really helped me be rounded because I've done 20 years as a coach.

37:35There's other areas of management that I need help and I'm still learning around. As a manager of Glasgow Rangers, you might do 15, 16 interviews a week and you're not always going to come into that room in a perfect place. I'm honest enough to say that's an area that I'm looking to improve and I have improved on over time and will continue to. But it is an element that you don't learn in the 20 years on the way up. And there was a unique skill set between Stephen and myself that made that relationship work for the time it was together. Okay, let's do the worst thing. Let's humanise managers. Let's bring in the side that people don't generally see.

38:09On that front, human element comes into a lot of the decision making that you have to navigate. So you're at QPR. Wolves isn't right for you. Rangers it. what is it that you think about how do you approach these things when you have something as you've said previously you were very happy at qpr you know it was going really well but there's more factors to this than just simply what a fan base may take into account yeah obviously qpr i have a great warmth for qpr the disappointment is the way that the fans felt at the time that i left but my feelings towards qpr have never changed it was a fantastic period of time that i was there There was an opportunity to come.

38:49It wasn't right. I stayed at QPR because it was the right thing to do. And I spoke in the wellness of the club and the journey that we was on. I really did not expect the call to come from Rangers. It's where my family live. And obviously, I'd been there for four years when my children go to school and where they're comfortable. And also, I had a huge relationship with those people at Rangers. You know, the people that came to interview me or asked me to go back, I'd spent three and a half years with. We'd come off an invincible league win. We'd had big nights in Europe and I had to make a decision at the time.

39:20Throughout my career as a young coach, I still feel I'm at the start. I'm 44, but I still think I'm at the start of my career. I've always had to make difficult decisions, whether to leave Chelsea and go to Liverpool, to leave Liverpool when I was living the best moment of my life to go across to Brazil. Then when I come back to Liverpool for the second time, you can imagine how hard it was to say I'm going to Rangers. To leave QPR, to go back to Rangers was tough. Rangers, I had a grip on me. So it was a decision made with a heart. They had just been Europa League finalists a few months before.

39:51We'd won the League Invincible with 10, 11 months earlier. And I had to make a decision. It was a decision between two great things. And you have to choose one. And I chose to go back to Rangers. Scottish football, you know, it's huge. Two teams obviously dominate it. What was it like being in that environment? It was a huge privilege. And I think everything that comes with that job is a huge privilege. I've loved every minute of being at the club in both times, the good and the bad, because I think you have to accept that comes with it. You know, if you don't want to, if you don't want that, stay as an academy coach, stay under the radar.

40:20But, you know, you go towards first team football, it's the thrill of the match day. And every game at Rangers is a big game. Every game's live on TV. It's been around the world. There's a lot of focus on it. And so I loved it. There's big clubs in Scotland, the two Edinburgh clubs, Aberdeen are big clubs. Finances have left the Scottish football behind. You know, they're next to the world's biggest league. so I feel for football in Scotland because there is an imbalance in fan base and in that leaves an imbalance financially but it was a huge privilege you know they're both huge clubs I'm not religious either way but there's people that are born into it and I respect it really respect it but it's not something that I want to pay too much attention to if I'm honest the football clubs are great and I had real support from Rangers fans the first time around in an initial period that I'm really grateful for and I can't escape it wherever I go.

41:12If you're a Rangers or Celtic employee or if you go on holiday or if you walk in the streets here of London, someone will support one of those two teams and I've had some fantastic, never anything nasty, but some fantastic conversations, meeting the fans. The passion is huge. And the finances. You're suddenly working with budgets and you're dealing with transfers and you're going from working with that, as I said, pure play development side into the more business, the front facing piece. When you had to make that transition, when you go into a club like that where there is an expectation on player trading as well.

41:42How involved were you? I've been very fortunate with the sporting directors I've worked with at QPR and Rangers, two very different people in Les Ferdinand and Ross Wilson, but I had fantastic relationships with both of them. And they really, really supported me as a first-time manager. You think I had 22 games at QPR, life come at you quickly with the awareness and really putting your head above ground as a manager and it moved very quickly. So when I went to range, I was still in my first year as a manager. And I think a young manager, what is your skill set? If your skill set is working with players on the pitch and having an idea of where we need to improve, then how does a sporting director help you?

42:21Well, he helps you keep on task with the remit you agreed going in. He helps you by managing maybe the other departments. He helps you by being aligned between you and the board and agents and keeps you fresh and energetic to do what you're good at. and Les and Ross, I'm very thankful for them both doing that. I found it more difficult when Ross Wilson left in the march. At the time, we were doing quite well. I think we'd won 18, drew one, lost one of the first 20 or 21 games. We was in a really good place. But losing that person that was there every day, managing those aspects. Of course, the coach should never be forced.

42:57A player should never be forced on the coach. The coach should be meeting a player at an open door with a handshake and really warmly and be involved in the last part of the process in terms of talking about his vision for the player in the club. That's very important, but I don't want to be managing all of that. You want to be part of maybe a technical leadership team and I had that at QPR and Rangers. How much of the job now is managing up? It's really important and I think it comes back to your initial conversations and it's okay. An owner from time to time might want to move the remit. That was certainly the case at QPR because we did so well so quickly and then people can get a little bit dizzy and then the communication can be a little bit different to what it was previously in terms of ambitions.

43:37That's fine. You can have board meetings where you can move the goalposts a little bit. It's really important that you have clarity on that and then you always talk about the way it's going and you always talk positively. I think in football it's important not to talk back. It's about talking about tomorrow and what's coming because we don't want to do a commentary on what's gone on in the past. You have to be positive and move forward. The next game's coming and there's no blame. There's no ego. We're all in it together. If a signing doesn't work, we have to know why we chose that player and we have to look at the reasons maybe why it hasn't worked for that player rather than pointing fingers.

44:10I've seen that in football clubs and you have to have those conversations with the board and real clear communication. All of a sudden, other elements of the job come at you that you're learning. QPR was different to Rangers in terms of the demands on media. It wasn't always done face-to-face as well. Some of the media was done via Zoom. So that was a nice stepping stone. Rangers is a different club entirely. You maybe have 25 to 30, sometimes even more journalists than that in the big games that are there. There's a TV station. So if you play three games a week, that's three pre-match, three post-match.

44:46There's in-house, there's different medias, BBC, there's obviously whatever television station have taken the game. There's requests as well from other countries to do media. So all of a sudden, that's a big part of your week and you're speaking a lot. Do you delegate that to your staff? But if you do delegate some, it's not always what the club and the media want. So you are frontline and centre. So you have to manage that. I found some of that challenging, if I'm honest, and it's certainly an area of growth. because you take the emotions from the game straight into an interview four or five minutes later.

45:21You come out of a room with your assistants after a game, either very high or very low or indifferent, and maybe six or seven people, and then you walk straight out into a media conference and you could be thrown by a left field question. It's all part of our learning. And I enjoy doing media, but it's an area that you constantly have to work on, your time management. And I think that's where a really good sporting director keeps you fresh. A really good owner can keep you fresh, but more so also the people you choose to go on the journey with in your coaching staff. You become public property really, don't you?

45:53Yeah. As you said in the past, that came through really strongly looking back at your experience at Sunderland in particular. You don't seem like someone that has regrets. You seem like someone that will learn from every experience. But when you have a tenure like that at a club and it's very short and we've talked again about the importance of longevity and getting the chance to properly implement your strategies. How do you view that as an experience from a learning of the realities of what the environment is versus your own assessment of yourself? Everybody went into that with the right intentions.

46:24When I got the call to go and meet them, it moved very, very quickly. Really interesting way of working, a young squad. Everything behind the scenes looked like a really good fit. I did go in on my own, which was a gamble in terms of the way I wanted to work. But over time, we were going to look to rectify that. We just never got to that junction for obvious reasons. The timing of when I went in was difficult. It was, you know, the back end of December. I think I started on the 21st of December and we played four games. We played the 23rd, 26th, 28th and we played the 2nd of January. We came out of the 2nd of January, 5th in the league.

46:57We went straight into an FA Cup game with Newcastle and everybody knows how big, what a privilege it is to coach in that game. But obviously there was a situation with the Newcastle fans painting the bar in their colours and everything that went with that. and my last two home games there, we won both 3-1. They did a fantastic thing, the Sunderland fans, for my niece who was unwell at the time with leukemia. They did an applause and the way they were towards me. So, you know, I have to say that it wasn't, you know, I was only there for 12 games, which is no time for a coach and especially in the period that I went in.

47:30That's a fact. Everybody knows that and we won games. It wasn't that we didn't, you know, we won the last two home games 3-1, won four out of 11 in the league. We drew two. But the feeling of the fans towards the appointment wasn't right. Why? I don't know. I think they had a really good affinity to the previous coach. I actually took that as a good thing because, you know, you want fans to have a feeling towards a manager. There'd been an interim period for two or three weeks, and then I came in. I wasn't the only manager they spoke to, and I came into it quite late, and then I was announced really quickly.

48:01It was very soon after being at Rangers. It was only eight weeks, and maybe everybody had to look at that, and I know that people at the club have spoken about that. I feel that way. I have no animosity towards Sunderland or the fans. The fans voice their feelings and they have every right to do that. But at the same time, when my family was going through something difficult, they showed a huge amount of care and empathy just a week before I left and just a week before we were in the playoff position. So it comes quick. It's interesting. The two jobs I've had in the championship, which is a really tough league, I've always been in the top eight at the top end of the championship.

48:37And that's disappointing. and I had a belief that it would go well over time, but it didn't and I left and it was probably best for everybody. They had a difficult time after that, but some of the things that we implemented and spoke about, they did go and they've set it on record and the next year has been brilliant for them. And I'm so pleased for the people, people inside the club that are finally back in the Premier League and it was great seeing them win the playoff final. They showed class as well because they invited me to the game. Unfortunately, I was away, but that shows there's no animosity on both sides.

49:09It didn't work. Everybody went into that with the right intentions. How challenging for you as a manager is hire and fire culture? The one thing is when you're in the conversation with the owner, you can sense maybe that where the owner wants you to get to in the realism of the squad and right now. That's why you have to have those conversations and it's a bit like speed dating and you're not the only coach they're going to meet, Charlie. They're going to meet different coaches and they're going to like what one says, maybe what another. It's really important that you're really transparent in the way that you're going to work and that the owner believes in it because I think then you have a chance.

49:45I also think that it's really important that the club communicate why they've made this decision. Fans don't like the words project and they don't like the words long term. I'm a fan myself, so I understand it. You want your team to perform and do well. I also think timing of when you go into a club. The only club I've been into out of the three in pre-season was QPR. I've gone into a club at Rangers in mid-season. It was the World Cup break and it was a squad that I knew. And I was really welcomed back by the players in terms of the way that I wanted to play. They had fond memories of that. So it was the first time really I went in a real difficult period in the winter.

50:23Firstly for training in the northeast with the wind and the rain. But just the amount of games that you play. Also at Christmas, players have got a lot going on in their mind. So I do think that when you're hiring a manager as a club, I think the timing of when you hire is really important. Sometimes it's out of your control, whether you go in mid-season or not. But all those things play a part. But also the communication outwards of the journey that you're on. Some clubs do it fantastically well and others are still working that out. That sounds like a big learning for you then. Every time you have a managerial conversation, if you're looking at it and you start on the 21st of December, we all know how tricky a Christmas period is.

50:59It doesn't matter how good your team is. You can easily lose on Boxing Day and New Year's Day. Yeah, and I was never going to turn down a club of the size of Sunderland and the history. It was a huge privilege to have the opportunity. So you make the best of the cards that are dealt, that come your way. But yeah, it's fascinating. How did I learn to coach? If you go back, what's your beliefs, your values? Well, I've been 10 years at Chelsea and six years and two periods at Liverpool that was all about the long-term vision, identity and how you work towards it. So that's what I know. That's what I like.

51:31I found that very difficult in Brazil, hence why I left the club shortly before the manager left because what they'd said at the beginning, it wasn't reality. And that was my first time at first team football. Now I know that's just sometimes that is first team football, but that's really what I believe in. I miss going on the journey. So the journey with players, the journey with team, the journey with staff. As I say, it's about feeling and relationships. You're not going to get that straight away. Can you get more of that if you're not a first team manager? Yeah, you can. As an assistant, it's much easier.

52:01You're not the manager. You're not the person that picks the team. You're the person that can meet a player in the canteen and have an honest conversation about the you versus yourself. They're willing to be more vulnerable. I think as a manager, you can do that with your leadership group, but then you need to have a group of staff that are an extension of you. I really like to have development staff around me because let's take the word youth off development. We're all developing. We're all on a you versus yourself journey, me and my career, yourself and yours and every person that we meet in our friendship group and our family.

52:32So I like to go on these journeys and I need people that are an extension of me. I don't want clones. I don't want to work with the same people in every environment because I don't think that will work. And I have real ambitions to work overseas. So therefore, you have to have different skill sets to do that in terms of languages and knowledge of the area. So it's not about having one staff, but it is having a staff that's hugely positive and is looking at going on a journey and getting close to people. The same way how we started the interview about seven and eight year olds. You've mentioned overseas.

53:03Your most recent piece was overseas. in the league that everyone talks about. So you went with Stephen or joined him at Alistair Fakh. How was it when you go into that Saudi football environment? What are we looking at from how football's growing there? Before I went, I had a couple of opportunities if I wanted to interview for jobs in the league and it wasn't for me. I had too many questions unanswered. When Stephen called me, it was out of the blue and he explained the project. And then Mr. Hatim, who's the president of the club, He came on. He's a big Liverpool fan. He explained the project and where they were taking it.

53:39It was hard not to be excited. There was maybe 16 or 17 British staff. It was the strongest staff I've been involved in in football in terms of experience and quality of staff. Five or six that I'd worked with before. and they like to say I turned up when everything was lovely because when they first arrived, they were renting a stadium that wasn't so nice, so they built the stadium. Stephen was heavily influential in that and the training ground as well was Premier League level but when they turned up, they were renting pictures. So I turned up at the nice time. I was hugely excited by the league coming up against the famous players and Benzema was one that I was really looking forward to working against.

54:17He's been watching play a lot. But he's exactly the type of player that I love, that maverick and the way that he plays with that freedom. So you're playing against the world stars. You learn a lot about the culture. Obviously, the language is very, very difficult. It's not like going to work in Brazil where you can pick up Portuguese quite quickly. Arabic is much more difficult. There's the culture. There's the heat, the traveling, the different types of people in terms of beliefs as well. And obviously, you have the five prayers and there's Ramadan. damn. So all of this thing, it enriches you as a coach.

54:51I feel so happy that I took that choice to go there because as a person, I grew. You say they sell the project, they get you excited about it. What is the project? Because this is more than money. This isn't a China 2010 trying to build the Super League out there. This has longevity. So how are they talking about it to you as being part of that journey to grow the sport in that country? If you're talking about the icons that go there, then obviously the financial wealth has been reported is really high. But if you're talking about the coaches that go, it's not too different to the levels that I'd been working at as an assistant in the Premier League or in any of the other clubs.

55:26So you listen to how they're trying to develop players. They've invested lots of money in the academy system, lots of money in facilities. And I had to take the word of five or six people that I trusted that I'd worked with before, not just Stephen. And also those guys, those members of staff, are taking their whole families across as well. and so there was a lot of trust the questions that I had when I was offered the opportunity to interview for some jobs there were too big but because my friends were there and people that I'd worked with before that I trusted their level and also they spoke to me about the level of the local players as well which is sometimes disrespected the local players are good players there's players playing Nareti Fak team that would easily have played in my Sunderland and QPR and Rangers teams there's good players there we can't generalise and with the standard of the players going in the league's only going to get better I think it's going to take three or four years for it to stabilise because there's one or two big clubs that are falling down the league that are now coming up that have got big investment but it's an exciting it's an exciting place to be Saudi Arabia at the moment and at first I enjoyed working there and secondly I actually enjoyed living there as well You touched on the importance of youth development if you want to become a proper footballing nation that's key you can't just keep shipping in talent eventually you want to start creating your own because you want to be competing at national as well.

56:44What's that like? The academy structures there, the appetite from the kids that are getting into the game, the accessibility of the game for kids. Did that impress you when you were there? They're moving very fast in that sense. The president of our club, his brother, was the president of the Saudi Arabian FA. So I learned a little bit more. I met their technical director and had a conversation about how they're planning the future. They're hiring a lot of academy managers to come over from Europe and educate their young coaches. There's a lot of passion for football in Saudi Arabia. That's been accelerated, but the passion was already there.

57:18They've obviously capped to eight foreign players and two under 21 in terms of the first team squad. So you'd have a first team squad of 30, but only 10 can be overseas players. Not every club takes up the full allocation as well. I think for the local players, the inspiration of being able to play with some of the world's best and what that gives them day in day out can only help but forget the players that are playing in the first team now established imagine what that's doing for the next generation and the generation afterwards we know what it did for us here in England when the launch of the Premier League and the Bergkamp's and Zola's and Cantonese come in the league what that done for the next generation and onwards that's all happening but we mustn't forget that Saudi Arabia did beat Argentina in the last World Cup so you know the excitement in the region was already building before you know so it's important that we don't we make uneducated views on it you know having been there and seen it the passion for football is huge.

58:17You talked about earlier the opportunities for English coaches in these emerging leagues do they present opportunities where maybe it's harder for English coaches to get jobs in the traditional football leagues? It's difficult because the world's best coaches are there we've just seen Inzaghi go across and And, you know, like Jorge Jesus, so they're big name managers that are going across there. Nuno Santo was there. But just in general for British managers, I was given a real strong hint early on in my time at Chelsea. We saw, obviously, when I first started, Ranieri was coached, Mourinho, Scolari, Angelou Hidinkum.

58:51These were not just outstanding football coaches. They had brilliant human skills as well in terms of two or three different languages. so the hint's there for us you know you look in the Premier League now and the world it's the world's league in my opinion it's the eyes of the world is on the Premier League and maybe the EFL is the English league in that sense and I think the next generation of coaches are much more open to learning a second language much more open to upskilling themselves and if I look at my own personal as I say I was given a hint very early on that I needed to upskill I needed to make sure that I've learned a second language needed to go abroad and really study you know go on these tournaments with Chelsea and Liverpool, but also go and study myself, take the time out.

59:33And a bit like when you're a young player, you may have to take a separate route. There's a big football world out there. We are an island, so sometimes we have an island culture and we have the best league and we have a wonderful EFL underneath that that's very unique. So there is opportunity. But I would really like to see more British coaches go abroad, learn a second language and bring that back and also inspire the next generation. because my idols were Sir Bobby Robson and Terry Venables for that exact reason. And I think that our young British players now are being respected. We only have to look at Real Madrid with Jude and Trent there, or Job's now gone to Borussia Dortmund or Fickeo and Ruben Loftus-Cheek at AC Milan, McTominay at Napoli.

1:00:15Our young players are being respected more than ever. That's a huge compliment to the work that's gone on in our academies. It's a huge compliment to the young men themselves that they're willing to go over there and learn a second language and branch out. I would really like the next step to be British coaches doing that. It's certainly a path that at some point in my career I must take myself. Okay, so let's look at that then, because if we're actually covering this off, it's an incredible journey. You have Chelsea and Liverpool from the side that we've talked about. You then had Sao Paulo, Rangers, Villa, Alex Fack from an assistant.

1:00:46You've had QPR, Rangers and Sunderland as a manager. How are you viewing this next step? I still feel that I'm at the start. A lot of ex-players will come out and start coaching around this time. So I have a lot of experience, a lot of really good experience in there. Not always really positive. I have to say up until maybe two or three years ago, there was a lot of whipped cream in there and there's now the other type in there as well, which you need. and I feel that the young manager that went into QPR was quite naive. The naivety of youth, if you like, can be a strength, but at this moment in time I'm much, much more equipped to be a manager of a football club and an exciting project.

1:01:27And the energy I have for it, I have energy for football of all ages and of all levels, you know, and one day when I've got many more grey airs, I would like to go back to youth where my first passion started. But it's not youth, it's just development, you know, Developing myself for 23 years, I did develop. Of course, the jobs developed me, the people around me developed me, the players developed me, but I hadn't really taken the time to reflect at any moment. And that was the advice that I was given. That also was around the time where I had to invest as a father and I have three children. It's important that when you become a manager and as you put it, you become public property, that your family members are protected as well and everything around that because they're the people that maybe see you less.

1:02:11And so this year has been about investing in that, being invested in myself. But I'm ready, like really ready. And the energy I have and the passion is only stronger now. Is it important to have a goal? And I mean like an eventual goal. So say, hey, I want to manage in the Premier League. Yeah, like when I started out, my goal was to go and work abroad and really wanted British coaches to be seen as elite because I didn't think we had that. And I didn't think British players did. I'm talking about when I was 21. or over 20 years ago. We've made a long strides on that. But I always thought if I could be a youth coach, because my youth coach was so influential.

1:02:44So it was my anchor, if you like. That was my anchor. If I didn't achieve what I wanted to achieve, then I would break down every wall, but my anchor would be a youth coach. I love youth coaches. They model behavior. They teach you from being your hobby to being your job. My youth coach, one of them was Neil Banfield, who ended up being my assistant at Reigns and QPR, which was a lovely 360. day he's like the old granddad in the corner barking in my ear when my energy is not good or when I'm having a bad day and so no look you have to have aims mine has been to go on and it's a big football world I want to explore it if I ended and only worked in here in England but it wasn't the Premier League and that's why whenever I've had a difficult decision to make it's always been slightly easier because of the the goals that I set myself at 21 when I set out so leaving Liverpool is extremely difficult but I'd said I was going to go and work abroad and learn a second language I think sometimes in life we we want to do something or we need to and what I found is when I needed to learn Portuguese it landed when I needed to I had 17 hours lessons I had to go there and if I didn't have a grasp of the language as a football coach I was going to foul there's a difference to wanting to learn Spanish like I've wanted to for many years and I often see that in young players as well.

1:04:00Certainly in South America, I saw that. There was a social need to be a player that outdid the want. Every person is different that you meet as young players in the academy system in England. There's certainly players here that need to be a player rather than want. But obviously, we know that we're very fortunate in this part of the world that if it doesn't work out, we can be a banker, we can be an analyst, we can be a coach, but in certainly other parts of the world. So that's a long answer to that, but you can see I've delved into that a lot. Ready for a quick fire, a few questions. I've seen you talk before about strength and super strength and the importance of turning the strength into the super strength.

1:04:38What do you identify as your strongest attribute that you worked on to make it one of the most influential? My on-field coaching is really important for me. That's where I feel alive. That's where I feel the most comfortable working with players and then making it really personal. I think that's my super strength. There's other areas you need to round off in terms of like you can be very, very demanding. And, you know, the time you give things to land on different people. And my learning's gone around cultures and how different people see it. And we have this thing in England around train how you play.

1:05:11Well, I think you have to train to improve. So it's slightly different. You know, like British players, we train like this. Foreign players are a little bit different speeds. And that's how you learn that over time. Academies. You've said you love to go back into it. If I say you can now go and manage any academy. Which one do you admire? Which one do you love? Who would you take right now? There's something in the water in Liverpool in terms of what the players bring in terms of just the people that are really... London's so much more diverse. So you get a bit... And I love the time at Chelsea.

1:05:39In Liverpool, there's something in the water in terms of the character of the people that I think they'll always develop. And then if your coaching programme can blend in with that, then I think you have a real chance. And so my best friend is the academy manager there, so I'm not trying to do him out of a job. And Alex, you're doing a wonderful job. And last year they had the most minutes in the Premier League of homegrown players in front of Chelsea. So the two clubs I've previously worked at many years ago. So no, it's a special club and I think that one's a good one. If you're advising a young player, and I think it's particularly powerful from you because you've been a manager having been through the U system.

1:06:14If you're advising a young player on an attribute to really focus on, to stand out, to be a cut above the rest at a younger age, what do you say is most important? if we're talking about a technical skill I'd say what I would call the action man hip so you know when you're young and you have the action man and the hips go all the way around well that's a bit of advice I was given very early the best players twist and turn or turn with the ball slightly better than the ones the level below and if you think of any player that you love when you're watching the game Charlie think of that it's almost like the ability to twist and turn and evade you know like individual possession is such an important thing but with any player if a player as a dribbler and that's their elite skill and you say, can we make that a super strength?

1:06:56Well, are you dribbling outside to cross on your right foot? Okay. Can you dribble inside on your left foot? Can you cross? Do you know how to combine with the other players? So when I say you make it a super strength, you make it more varied, more robust to come up against different opponents, to come up against different sides and strengths and different areas of the pitch. So you are improving weaknesses, but around the focus on the strength, these young players now get so much feedback. Stay on what they're good at, stay on what they love, and use that as the inspiration for development. Interesting that you said, if I was talking about performance there, because there's a mentality side as well, right?

1:07:32Yeah, of course. It's how we can put little building blocks in as the players go through around this you versus yourself and keeping your network close. A lot of the players that I've seen do well. Their network's very small in terms of their support network. It might be a parent. It might be a coach. It might be, you know, one of the questions I ask players is who's the most inspirational person in your life? Why? And how do they make you feel? What do they make you do? Because I think we can ask that to any person and you'll get an understanding. It might be a grandparent and he says, never give up.

1:08:04And then you know that's almost a way that you can manage that young player. And it might be, or my mum or a school teacher and they put the arm around you. Very rarely is it that someone gave them wonderful piece of tactical advice. It's a feeling. And so it comes back to feeling and relationship. And that's the curious thing about first team football. If it's about feeling and relationship, then the tenure of managers is crazy. Like when I went to Brazil, the average tenure of manager was 15 games. That was the average. That's not our norm here. It may be edging towards that. But, you know, I do think it comes down to feeling and relationship.

1:08:39And when you bring a player into your environment, you want them to feel really comfortable. you want them to be open about you know and sometimes vulnerable where they're going and where they want help but when a player comes in and his aim is like where are you going what are you doing this for like it's a really important question i think and then your job is to help them towards that final one who's the most influential person in your life my wife she's uh she's the one that's traveled all over and put up with the uh the time away and we've lived in five or six houses already as a young couple.

1:09:12We've only married 10 years, so that gives you the idea. Obviously, I have one son that's born in London, one that's born in Liverpool, and a daughter that's born in Scotland. So there's the life of a football coach, and she's the strength behind everything that we do. Amazing. Beautiful way to finish it. Michael, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Pleasure. Thank you so much to Michael for coming in and talking to us about his incredible career so far, while also highlighting the ambitions that he has to keep developing as a coach and a manager in the future. Being a football manager, who would do it?

1:09:46The timeframes you have to operate in when taking the top jobs are so short and yet the expectations are so huge. It is such a brutal industry to be a part of and I guess that's what makes the best managers really stand out from the rest. But the key thing, as we mentioned at the beginning, is to really be able to understand and reflect on the experiences that haven't gone so well and learn how to make sure that you come back a better manager. That's something that, while Michael didn't say it, was really clear to me throughout this whole conversation. This is someone that had taken on so many roles, and there was no ego in what he was doing.

1:10:22He wanted to find the best place for him and his skills, whether that is in youth development, whether that is leading a first team. And I love these opportunities to humanise some of the people in football that more often than not, we don't actually get to build relationships with beyond what is written about in mainstream press. So again, a huge thank you to Michael. And again, a huge thank you to High Performance. Having been a huge fan of that show for a long time, it was pretty cool to be able to sit in the hot seat and do that show in their very nice studio. But I don't think Jake and Damien have anything to worry about anytime soon.

1:10:54Thank you as always for joining and we'll see you next time. Now, if you want to hear more from today's show, you can do so by going to YouTube and typing in business of sport. But before we leave you, some words from our valued partners. This is digital fitness coaching at its peak. I'm so excited for us to partner with Runner, a relationship that's going to get us all up and out there, me included, pacing the streets, woodlands, parks, beachfronts, but backed up by elite level insight and accessibility. This is the kind of coaching that used to be reserved for the pros. Now, all you need is a pair of shoes and a goal.

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