Pat Cummins: Winning the Ashes, Magic of the IPL & The Art of Bowling in a Batters Era (Ep.112)

28:01Pat Cummins:Massively compromises that, right? Because the whole point of being a captain is to be able to pull those people aside and have a conversation where no one else is listening. That's literally the essence of being able to help develop some of these people. yeah and i just i don't know i just want to be relaxed and i don't want to look like i'm fake so even if i'm as soon as you put that on you just you're a little bit on guard like with that being such big business and with it being ever more influential in the world of cricket what's it like either from you personally you can speak from experience or just you know you see this more broadly the power of those individual leagues independent of international organizations and the pressure of the contracts that you hold with your countries and the demands to play a certain amount of time for Australia across formats.

28:43Pat Cummins:How's the landscape of that at the moment? Yeah, I think it's at a tension point. It has been for a while, but I think it's only growing. As each of these franchise leagues get well capitalized, get more sophisticated, as some of these Indian franchise owners are now branching out and owning different leagues, what we experienced Australia and in England is test cricket is very well supported. You know, the test summer is big crowds and a lot of attention. That's not the same for every other international side. So I think every country has slightly different challenges. You know, as Australian captains, something we speak about quite a bit is how do we make sure that we've got our best Australian guys to choose from when we're picking a test side or an ODI side because there is so much demand for them elsewhere.

29:38So, yeah, I think even the way we contract players and talk about whether we let players go or not has evolved a lot in the last five or so years because we don't want to lose them. So you've got to give them a little bit more leash than maybe previously you did.

29:54Pat Cummins:If you are deciding to put, let's just say, country all the time first and not going to leagues, Are you making a decision to sacrifice wealth? Or are the organisations now some of the cricket boards, are they elevating the size of the contracts? Are they kind of reacting to the times to ensure that players aren't having to make a decision that's going to significantly reduce their ability to earn, basically?

30:22Yeah, I'd say if you're playing all three formats in Australia, you're very well compensated. you probably could i would say almost certainly if you played every other league you'd probably be better off um in the short term but you know our guys love playing obviously you know test cricket at the moment but i don't think that's going to be the case forever you know someone else might have different priorities so we got to make sure that um we adapt to that you know we are starting to talk about longer term deals to lock in those the top two talent um to aussie cricket how much is like an Aussie cricket contract versus like an IPL?

30:59I'm not, if IPL is one and a half million for the two months, is Australian cricket the same? Yeah, roughly. And that's a 10 month base for the contract. But again, that's quite a high Aussie contract to the sum that might be on less than a fifth of that, who are also locked into play for Australia for 10 months. um i mean the interesting point is obviously big ashes series all the main guys want to play that series you know for example during the hundred this season we've got two test matches against bengaladesh um all our guys have played you know won't that will play in that test match have opted out of going to the hundred auction but that's not going to be the case for forever like some of our guys are saying no to half a million pounds for 20 days work to go and play those two test matches against being the lash so i think it is a tension point um are you serious the team are like yeah we want to go to bangladesh over play for half a million bucks but that's the essence of the question isn't it and this is the essence you know at the moment our guys are so keen to play for australia that they're happy to forego that but i don't think

32:11Pat Cummins:we can just accept that's always going to be the case forever when you were with us last time you You know, you were so adamant about the kind of love for Test cricket, always wanting to be able to play Test cricket. Not wanting to age you, but, you know, as you get to the later part of your career and, you know, you've just had now a few months off injured, are you getting to the stage where you have to start thinking about, for longevity's sake, prioritisation? Because you're still playing, you're captaining T20 side, but, you know, you missed the World Cup. You're captaining the Test match team.

32:42Pat Cummins:You're still playing in the one-day team. And obviously then you've got IPL commitments. How are you starting to think about this now? Definitely prioritize series, but still very keen to play all three formats. And at the moment, I think we can make it work. So I love test cricket. We normally have about 10 test matches in a year. So that's kind of what I build my schedule around. IPL slots in there. And there's normally one or two ICC events each year as well, which that's another very important white ball tournament that I'm desperately part of. So that kind of builds out most of the calendar and then that's not going to move.

33:22And then you kind of look to see what's going to slot in between. So, you know, previously I've missed some ODI series because that's our kind of, let's have two or three months in the gym, try and have a kind of forced rest, get strong for a big Ashes series, whatever's ahead of that. So yeah, already prioritizing. Hopefully I'm in a kind of cadence where I can keep doing that for three, four, five years and don't have to forego test cricket. One of the things you've slotted in in the past is San Francisco unicorns and entering the US with cricket. Yeah. Long term, do you think cricket has a potential in the US?

33:58I know it's a blunt and hard question. Yeah, it's hard. I think they've given it the best shot. It's a great tournament. The players love playing in it, which is, I think, half the battle for some of these new franchise leagues. Why do they love playing in it? Because the audiences are quite small. The grounds aren't full. You're really seeding an ecosystem. Why love it? It's, you know, somewhere in the middle of a US summer, you can take your family for three weeks. It's very different to going to India for the 15th time or Sri Lanka or South Africa for the 10th time. Like, it's all quite new still.

34:34And a lot of these guys who do travel to India for an IPL, you don't have much social life. Even for families, it's quite tough to travel, whereas you are largely anonymous over there in the States. So it could be a fun month over there. When you say it's hard to travel, what do you mean? It's just like tough getting around when you're in India and playing? Can't go outside. Yeah, I mean, you play every three days a lot of the time and that's in a different city. So for example, when Becky and the kids come over, you're packing up hotel bags every second day. It's not a small country as well. So you're flying everywhere, at least in England, you're driving everywhere.

35:10so you spend half your life in an airport during an IPL

35:13Pat Cummins:and just with the fandom you can't go to the local cafe and have a quiet coffee for an hour you are really into a lot of your work away from cricket as well you love your investing you're really interested in business and stuff beyond the game you go and put yourself in and around San Francisco kind of west coast US for a month that must kind of play into it as well for you oh 100 um yeah that was a big um yeah big part of it um you know we're owned by um a couple guys who uh vcs um so that that was a big part of it i also when i did sign up it was when i um i only had albie then we were pregnant with edie very shortly afterwards and i quickly found out it's a bit harder to travel with two kids so um yeah i haven't played the last season or two but i'd love to get over there um and that's a big part of it i've actually never been to san fran but it seems like a pretty cool place and i'm super interested in that space as you guys know so spending time against uh with those owners for like i loved it soaked it all in was part of the deal um you where you got an opportunity to get equity in the team as well yeah yeah i mean the the um the vcs were awesome um yeah they're like this is how we normally like to do partnerships how do you say it i'm like sounds great to me um so uh yeah a little bit of a different structure to you know a transactional going playing somewhere just for cash um so again it's been really hard to get over there the last couple of years but I think the league's going to do really well.

36:56San Fran, a great organization. They're also thinking about things a little bit differently. You know, their expertise is in the data space. They've got a few kind of business ideas they're incubating around cricket statistics and data analytics,

37:09Pat Cummins:which is quite interesting to be a part of as well. But is that a different way of incentivizing athletes now? That suddenly makes a proposition where maybe you go, not sure I can fit that into the schedule, where you go, do you know what? Actually, there's an equity player here. We talk about the value of athletes taking equity and other businesses and the value that can have down the line. That's a clever and creative way to go and build out a sport and a market and get some of the best talent to come and support that. Totally. And not only during their playing career, like a lot of these guys might go and play those leagues so they're back, had a really successful international career, play when they're kind of into their mid-30s.

37:46It's also a great way to keep them involved in coaching or, you know, GM or talent ID or something post their playing career as well. I think you'll see more and more of it. Pat, we had Brian Habana on the show and he spoke about his like Gillette contract and how people expected he made like millions and millions and millions from these big contracts. Can I ask you, what's your biggest partnership? My experience from like American sports and EPL is very different to pretty much every other sport. So it's definitely like cricket contracts and your playing contracts are definitely the biggest money earners.

38:27And then like some wonderful, obviously, sponsors that I've been with for a long time. So it's kind of 20 % sponsors, 80 % contracts. Yeah. I think something like that's, yeah, right. And obviously like a big part of, say like, yeah, New Balance I've been with for 15 years. Obviously, money's lovely, but you're using the bats, using the shoes. They are a huge part of the tools of the trade as well. So that always wages in on the decision as well. I have to say the resurgence of New Balance is an incredible case study in sports fashion. Yeah. It really is amazing, actually. I mean, Slazenger, I don't know if you've seen this.

39:05It's really quite cool. Slazenger hired a 22-year-old to come and refurbish the brand who was basically giving ideas on TikTok of how he would do it. And they hired him and gave him entire creative direction. And it's just really interesting when you look at New Balance respectfully for a stale, outdated brand five to seven years ago, or maybe longer, eight to ten.

39:25Pat Cummins:It was the dad of the barbecue trainers. Yeah, and now it's like the hottest thing ever. I think they've, it's something like 30 or 40 % they've grown year on year. Like even in Australia, they've changed warehouse centers like three or four times in the last 10 years. so they just keep getting bigger and bigger. And all privately owned, owned by one guy, one family. That's your impact over there, right? It's called the Pat Cummins effect. Yeah, exactly. Available for$5 million. From as soon as I started. He's in the cricket shoes. You mentioned, though, just with the decisions, you have a growing family.

40:02Pat Cummins:Suddenly you have all of this different kind of expectation on it. You've got lots of different interests. How's it been managing the career over the last few years in particular? you know now you've got two kids um you're married making sure that you find the right balance between all of this yeah i'd say the first um first year or so of being captain was also the first year of being a dad when alb is born um so that's you know four years ago i found that really challenging like juggling old life with now my day job was also probably twice as busy i i'd say i think well for me anyway i think like my capacity has grown quite a lot over the last couple of years.

40:40So I feel like I can get a lot more done, but I just got to like very deliberate in how I prioritize my time. So, um, for example, I'm, when I go to India, family are coming, I'll probably lean more into some of these other interests more and more. Whereas when I'm home with the kids, it's pretty much cricket family and, you know, bits and pieces when it crops up. So I look after my diary a lot better than I used to and yeah,

41:08Pat Cummins:have a few people that really help. On the other interest side, you know, we do loads together on the business front, which is amazing. We see the impact that, you know, having athletes involved in some of the deals that 20VC does, which is, you know, hugely impactful. We've had some brilliant conversations, you know, particularly over the last six months, I feel, with some athletes really talking about how they can put themselves in a position to be exposed to business in a better way. And quite often it just comes down to how they utilize that spare time. And, you know, I think one of the footballers recently said, I think it was Petr Cech, the old Chelsea goalkeeper, he said, look, I could sit there and I could play on the PlayStation or watch Netflix all afternoon.

41:45Pat Cummins:But if I have those three hours, I'm doing some research on something. I'm reading up on it. I'm speaking to people that I wouldn't otherwise kind of get exposed to. Yeah. Do you have the same mentality? Totally. And it's just purely what interests me. I find it stimulating. Cricket's awesome, but I've been doing it every day for the last 15 years. Like it's, um, I really enjoy it, but I'm, as soon as the game's done, I'm probably not really thinking about what happened in that game or what I'll do differently. Honestly, I'll just move on to it. Kids are here or in India. Like I'll, like I'm, I want to get deep into AI.

42:24Um, got a few Claude projects I want to tinker with. Like just, I find that hugely fascinating. Claude, how do I bowl Joe Root out?

42:34Pat Cummins:Uh, Harry's is. picked oh yeah i know harry pops up at the ai bit of the conversation with a cricket reference no i've got it don't you worry i'm good yeah do you guys talk about it do people know um in the dress rooms and the teams that you play and like kind of what you're doing outside of it do they ever ask you about um this kind of side of the job yeah a little bit but um quite a few of the guys It's like a couple of my close mates are doing a bit of, you know, angel investing or, um, like co-investing in, I don't know whether it's funds or even maybe alongside like a business advisor or something like that.

43:11Um, I don't know. It seems to be a bit of a natural fit for a lot of the competitive sports people. So yeah, we, we chat about it a little bit, like they have very long conversations cause we all run out of knowledge after about three minutes. My group of mates anyway, we're into our thirties. So you start talking about what's life after cricket, um, things that are interested in we've all got young kids and yeah you have an amazing relationship with becky i want to ask you what did you think about relationships that you now no longer believe geez that's a really good question i don't know i mean i've been with becky for 12 11 12 years now so i probably forget

43:48Pat Cummins:i think um but you don't need to be with someone who loves cricket yeah i'd say that's probably one like one thing is i thought before i was with becky you know cricket would be a big part of my life. And I realized that you can have a very strong interest that isn't a strong interest to them. I probably thought like cricket was 80 % of maybe who I was, you know, like, whereas now I'm like, oh, that's 90 % of my day job, but maybe my day job isn't 90 % of my life. It's like maybe 40 or 50%. And maybe like someone else having a nine to five, you come home and you might talk about the odd bits and bobs but they're actually not that interested on what the term sheet look like harry on i'm a deal that time she's very important pad i wouldn't joke about these things uh but like you know johnny wilkinson said don't identify yourself as like the australian cricket captain because one day you won't be and then that will be a very hard day i like unwaveringly identify myself as as like harry 20 vc vc podcast that is inextricably linked to me i don't have two separate sides what do you say to that are you like you need therapy right you know like uh i mean that might be you at the moment doesn't mean it's going to be you forever so were you always like that though did or did you just at some points have the cricket cricket no like i've always had loads of different interests you know over the last probably five plus years obviously kids then kind of wedges its way in if you think about like a lebron or uh you know any of the like greats in american sports where you listen to the motivational videos and you're like they're in the gym at four they're watching repeats at six they are so consumed and live and breathe it with the greatest of respects that's not you no it's not it really isn't would you be better if we like put you on turbo charge if i gave you the 4 a.m routine 10 million dollars a year of performance people nutritionists diet coaches and we made you a lebron superhuman look maybe like maybe my ceiling goes up but i i honestly think my like maybe you start overthinking things i i think my enjoyment level would come down a lot which then means i'm not playing with freedom.

46:18Like I, I I'd say I'm very good at switching on my competitiveness. Once I'm on the field, I would say I'm very poor at switching on my competitiveness in the gym or at training at like, but I've only got so much bandwidth. So, you know, in a busy year, we might play 80, 90 days of cricket in a year. I'm making sure I'm good to go for those 80, 90. But honestly, if I was on like that every day, like a Christian yarn, Cristiano Ronaldo, and I was doing ice baths at 6am, I honestly think I'll be miserable. So I'd just prefer to have a bit of both. And I think it helps. I don't think it hinders it.

46:55There's some times where I go into a game and I wish I was better prepared. I think I'm always quite organized when it comes to like captaincy. I think it's my own game. Sometimes I walk out and start bowling. I haven't even thought at all about where I'm going to bowl, what this bat is going to do. I haven't warmed up. like I just yeah I'm like oh shoot she'll be right mate and then you like get it over and you're like come on like you're not giving yourself the best chance but is that the hardest thing about captaincy like the hardest thing

47:26Pat Cummins:about captaincy actually like being remembering to focus on yourself still I think so but I don't know sometimes it's like it's a way to give myself a shortcut of being like alright make sure your bandwidth is full for the game so like totally relax for the two days leading out and make sure you're fresh in the mind. And then I go out to bowl. I'm like, come on, mate, you could have at least done a warmup. So it's like, I do wish I was a little bit more at times properly kind of in, but like I look at some of those, like you mentioned the other sports that it was super dialed in all the time. I think it can be overdone.

48:04Like, like there's 24 hours in a day, people try and fill it with things that aren't necessarily productive but they they make themselves feel busy well we'll send this clip to cristiano we'll say mate that that ice bath mate it's a bit overdone you know that that nutrition plan bit overdone my mate my mate pat and smithy tell you to go down the bar have have a packet of mccoy's and a pint

48:26Pat Cummins:there was only one season of the last dance but they've done three seasons of the test so you know exactly there's a lot of people go oh you gotta you know michael jordan in the gym he took a year off because he was so fried so you know don't overdo it are you guys doing another season of the test uh i actually don't know i wasn't there in the world cup there was talk before the world cup that i'm going to start filming so i reckon we will at some stage i don't think it's been overdone like we've done three seasons but over the course of eight or nine years um i mean i haven't watched it for years i've watched it kind of as it got released each time but um i mean it's if i was a 10 year old cricket fan, it'd be the greatest TV show to watch, you know, I could imagine because you're getting a fly in the wall looking to basically how the team operates.

49:15So watching a lot of it just feels quite normal to me, but obviously that's my day to day. So for other people that come up and be like, I can't believe this happened. You're like, final one before we do a quick fire. I got asked it the other day and it was like, what would you do if you weren't scared? that there's definitely room in cricket for disruption in a few different areas i wonder like you know is there a like a media is still quite traditional where there's one or two big tv companies that pay and then lots of fragmented like journalism around it i wonder if there's a consolidation play there like a few of the other sports in u.s have had you're going to do a roll-up for cricket media i reckon you could do something like it's it's of all the sports it's very i don't know how you do it like this has been the crux of the the scheduling program but it is like there's cricket going on all over the world all at the same time which is chaotic but it's also international and i think there's there's a way you could bring parts of that together and

50:16Pat Cummins:centralize a bit more love it quick fire go for it you go fast uh you guys have a very good team well established for many many years if there's is there like one player that's really exciting you coming through that you think we should watch out for? Particularly maybe one that if you're outside of Australia, you wouldn't know about. I'd say I'm biased fast bowler, but there's about three or four young guys who played the under-19s last couple of years who look super exciting. They'll have stress fractures for a couple of years, but I reckon we should have three or four good fast bowlers in a couple of years that have some serious pace.

50:50Pat Cummins:When you plan your calendar, cricket calendar, at the start of each year, if you could do one more thing than you already do, Is there one tournament that you'd like to play before you retire? Yeah, I think the 100. Becky's obviously from Leeds and spent a lot of time over in England during the summer. All the boys that go and play it love it. Slightly different format. I think it's less than a month long. It looks good fun, so one day I'd like to play it. But Sunrisers have got the Leeds, Sunrisers Leeds, right? That's right. Yeah, Dan Vittori coach. um well hopefully yeah if i don't stuff up the ipo gig maybe one day i can get a season there that'll be good where is the best food stadium wise you played all over where's the like oh they have banging food we got a lot of photos of this yeah i can tell you where some of them aren't um where's the where's the best best and the worst where's best okay uh mcg best i'd say and and light lords like but that's that's kind of a given i would say those two are hard to split the worst i i can't i i'll go outside of australia because i know where you're angling um is it the gabba everywhere everywhere is it canberra the gabba gabba is it gabba yeah as if people normally just opt to make their own toasties when they're at the Gabba.

52:19That's bleak. That's bleak. I'd rather make my own toastie. Honestly, everywhere is pretty good. I'd say the most this point is tea breaks. When, like, in grade cricket, you get amazing spreads of, like, scones and jam or, like, biscuits or hot pies or something. Tea breaks in international cricket, so boring. Apart from lords, though, right? Lords still do quite a good one, or do they not? Yeah, they do bacon buddies in the morning. So they're top tier.

52:50Pat Cummins:Okay, like facilities-wise. Oh, good boy. And it's just interesting to ask this because there's a lot of conversation here at the moment about stadiums. We're having loads of new football stadiums, for example, being built. And it's great for business. But what it's also done is it's taken the really horrible places for teams to go, these shitty away team dressing rooms where there's literally a peg and a bench, to now you go away to what should be a really tough game and it's this kind of beautifully lighted, pristine, cushioned, seated, wardrobed dressing room, even for the away team. Have you seen some of this in cricket now?

53:28I don't think it really impacts how you play. For a test match, you're there for five days of the game, but you also might have a five-day leading. You've got so many bags with cricket that if it's a small change room, particularly some of the county grounds, you just feel claustrophobic. like it's just there's stuff everywhere but I mean it's it's fine um the the big the big one we don't like is um stairs like in Medabad the new stadium there has about a hundred stairs to get from the change room down to the oval so you're just like you're like am I gonna come back from the warm-up or am I just gonna stay down there because it's just not worth of trip it back

54:03Pat Cummins:up well I remember I was in the stadium I watched the you and that one for the 23rd World Cup it was literally like you guys you walk down a it's a caged walkway isn't it yeah down onto the pitch that looks quite scary it literally looks like you're walking like you're walking down like a prison lane yeah that's right um uh the bullring joeberg also has the same where you kind of walk through almost like a make sure people can't throw stuff at you what's the coolest stadium in india if you obviously know sunrise is one like if you're playing in the ipl you got some massive ones but then you've also got ones like the wankedi which are you know what about 30 000 uh dharamasala up north it's like i don't think it's himalayas but it's it's like up near nepal That's awesome.

54:43It's like snow-capped mountains in the background and a cricket field that you're playing a test match on. I'd say that's a stadium that's like unlike anywhere else. No IPL team there, is it? No. No, I think maybe Punjab play one or two games there a season. What does no one know about you, Pat, that you wish everyone did? Final one from me. That I wish everyone did? I don't really care what everyone... Do you not? You don't care what people think about you? Well, like, I don't wish that everyone knew a certain thing about me. Do you read the comments on social? Yeah, like, I don't... A lot of the time, it's pretty hard to avoid.

55:29Like, if I have a bad game and I know it's going to be heated, I'd probably, like, actively avoid it. But outside of that, I'd just... Fine. But genuinely, I reckon that the older I've got, as long as Becky's fine and my team, we're all on good terms, that's more important than anything else. And honestly, not too many bad things have happened. So I've probably been pretty lucky in my career that I haven't had to worry about too many things.

56:00Pat Cummins:David, I think, I'm pretty sure David Warner said to me that you should be Prime Minister one day. Are you going to ever make a run at politics? no no chance he might he's floated a few times really David Pocock's done it hasn't he the David Pocock the rugby players now do you call them senator yeah yeah for a couple terms yeah he's like looks like he's doing a brewing job but no I yeah I honestly would rather just look after my own diary yeah fair enough he was a man that's the title for the show Pat Cummins next door ZPM question mark question mark as long as I put a question mark at the end of that that's all good because it's just the question I've asked now that's that it are you finally going to apologise to me for throwing down Besto's stumps I didn't do it I was Kez we're on the right side of his room didn't he on the right side yeah yeah just after that as well naughty naughty naughty naughty boy not in his mind though yeah to be fair you can't argue that he was out he was out oh I remember oh I remember it was he did the little leave and you were like got you have you ever heard it so brilliantly put together like that he did the little leave even Harry knows the rules I'm kind of with you you laughed sloppy mate I'm genuinely I saw it and I was like no I'm fully round I'm fully round to your way of thinking now I don't know are you actually no I promise you I swear how long's it taken it's total bullshit also Bazzo oh I didn't mean it I didn't mean it it's like guys that's just careless that is that is careless but you didn't care when you were getting the heat then about like because I remember you were getting that booed in Lords it went way too far someone got thrown out for being abusive Humphrey Humphrey triple barrels yeah yeah yeah that's it oh you definitely want to win like I you definitely feel more pressure And there's always a bit of like, because it happens so quick and then you're like, oh, did I get that one right?

58:10And then after a while you're like, yeah, that's fine. But you as an Aussie team, were you like, fuck them? Yeah. Oh, when you win a little bit. Yeah. It was like a rare thing where like the actual whole of Australia kind of rallied behind us. It was a bit like, oh, that's rare. It's rare that the whole of Australia is normally with us. Normally it's half-half or something. So it was actually a rare moment where he felt some support.

58:35Pat Cummins:Hey, it takes those moments. Thank you so much for joining us again. Pleasure. Pleasure to have you back. Easy, boys. And he's back. Well, hopefully soon on the pitch, at least. Disappointingly for us English fans, such a great guy with a unique and powerful perspective on how to balance life as an elite athlete with interests outside the game. The IPL is always crazy few weeks of cricket. I'm sure there'll be some incredible stories coming our way. A huge thank you to Pat for joining us once more. Now, if you want to see more from today's show, you can do so by going to YouTube or any of our other social channels across Instagram and TikTok.

59:11Pat Cummins:There are more snippets to share and bite-sized chunks to consume. And whilst you're there, please do like, subscribe and follow the show. As you'll hear from your other favourite pods, it makes a huge difference when bringing you the best guests and conversations from around the world of sport, which is, of course, our endless aim. Thank you again and we'll see you next week. 25 years ago, Moneyball revolutionised baseball. Then football sporting directors learnt the collect more data lesson. And now, mission accomplished. Clubs have 60 times more information than they did then. But here's what nobody talks about.

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