Patrice Evra & Tommy Fish: ‘From Elite Player to Businessman; The Value of the Athlete Investor’ (Ep71)

26:28And there's a lot of this which can be a distraction. I think it's a joke. There's even like the Gerard Pique clause. But you're right. Ferguson didn't even want us to do any commercial. He will be so angry when we're going to take a plane and flying to doing a commercial for Nike or whatever. No, it's no distraction. I remember Rio Ferdinand was the first on Twitter. Ferguson was like, if you keep being on those social media, you won't play anymore. But now, you see how the time changed. One day I did a video and I was wearing the Scottish keel. and I remember Ferguson like send me a message he said Patrice pick up the phone because he called I was a missed phone so I hello boss how are you what have you done I'm gonna send my lawyers to you you disrespect my the Scottish flag I was like no boss just what this was just a funny video oh I'm joking Patrice send me that video I needed to send it to my friend so you see even someone like Sir Alex Ferguson was against it now he's asking me those videos to send it to his friend so with time everyone changed but back in the day trust me you know we were the first team to wear like the beat headphone Sporty 5 coming to Scotland and we didn't do the deal because they want us to wear just the headphone before the final Ferguson say no I think it's a generational thing with Sir Alex he would have been happy if you were investing in brick and mortar and that kind of thing but I guess there's been a real shift since around the time he retired and players building their brands on social media so do you think managers today would actually be encouraging of Harry and Pat doing their...

28:02I think they don't have a choice. I think the way this is the new generation, you know, I keep saying to the old school people, guys, of course, like back in the day, we were football players. Now they are athletes, they are politicians, they are rappers, they are a model, fashion, everything. So if you don't adapt, this is not our generation. Now football players are businessmen. But one thing, like, for example, even someone was pushing me and say, you need to invest, you need to do that. I have one thing, I leave the present. So I don't think about the past because you can live with regret.

28:35I don't think about the future because you can live with anxiety and stress. So I'm always like focused on the present. Do you think we've seen the complete transition of power then from manager to player 10, 15 years ago when Sarai said something, it was done. And today, no, no, no, like, you know, your Jude Bell-Aims of the world have probably more power than a manager. Yeah, 100%. Of course. Like the player got more and more. I saw like many players, they sack the manager. They go to the office, they go to see the owner or whatever. They say, we can't deal with the manager. The next day he gets sacked.

29:08Of course, do you think that's right? I don't think it's right because I always say to myself, I blame myself. If a manager gets sacked, I will blame myself first because I am the one on the pitch. It's a fine line, isn't it? You've got to give that freedom and autonomy, but you have to have that core objective still while you're playing being football and we know we've seen so many examples of it it's interesting for you guys working with young players as well right finding that those diamonds and I've got a few in my head I don't want to throw anyone but you find those people who are just amazing and then they can lose their way a little bit because all of that exposure and that pressure but you've got to protect against I don't know how you do that I don't know how you do that but he's also the agent or the management team shouldn't be greedy shouldn't accept every deal back in the day Cristiano Ronaldo he didn't accept many of those deals because he was too much traveling and everything but sometimes you got your team and they want to eat you know instead of being focused on the priority if you play football your priority has to be football I'll be honest with you if I didn't eat and sleep football I don't think I will stay in that level and that's why I don't blame this generation like a lot of the players they're like oh they ain't doing this they're doing that they distract we didn't have social media back in the day So, oh, you want me to judge them?

30:25I don't blame them. This is a problem with the society. It's not just about football. Football is a massive platform, but the society completely changed. You see the money we're talking about? Those people have never been like educated to spend this kind of money. So it's tough for them. And most of them, sometimes when they finish football or business, they get bankrupt because nobody teach you how to use your money. I never see like someone coming in the football club say guys let's do this those kind of investment like you just say but this is what worries me most which is the supply of cash has gone up so much so much but the financial infrastructure and education around players is not there still but actually even worse than that the ingratiation the education process for football is earlier than ever before and you are five years old in academies and on pitches and that's all you've ever known like the idea of doing school I hear you on Sunday university and stuff but it's pretty rare I mean it's like football let's be clear guys I didn't have any like background I didn't study I stopped school when I was 17 so football was everything but you know without being like good at school at least now I speak like six different language I'm doing a lot of business but why because I'm just using my ability you know my focus my discipline my work ethic but you have to come from yourself So if you are a lazy player or a lazy person, you're in massive trouble.

31:49Because I don't think people around you will help you. I heard a scary stat at an event I went to recently that 40 % of pro footballers go bankrupt after they retire. 40 %? Even more. Because you live kind of the same lifestyle. You know, because in your back account when you play it's plus, plus, plus. But when it starts to be menace and you want to live the same lifestyle. I remember we had one of your mates, I'm sure, Tom Cleverley. Oh, I love Tom. And he was talking to us about that stage. I think he said I was 28. And I suddenly looked at my life and I looked at how I was spending my money.

32:21And I was like, I'm injured a lot. I'm not going to last here for ages. I need to start doing something about this. And he was 28 years old. But he said, I didn't really know. I just had to start reducing the spend on liquid assets. I always thought quite a smart innovation would be 10 % of your salary goes into boring investments, like just ISAs and whatnot, that just accumulates over the course of your career. So whatever you want to spunk your money on, you're going to have that accumulation of 10 % of your salary that then compounds over the course of your career and then you come out to this windfall and you might have learnt a thing or two by then.

32:49I would have thought that would be a wonderful thing. But again, that's what I did with my company. Then I can take this money away. What did you guys talk about this stuff? When you're in a dressing room, did you discuss business? Did you talk about the things you were doing away from the field? Or was that a line that was drawing? It's so funny you ask me this question. Actually, we don't. We don't talk about business. We just talk about football. I think also nobody wants to know what you're doing. so everyone keep things quiet and private. I was so surprised, for example, in the UK, when you sign on the front page, they put your weak wages.

33:21In France, talking about money is taboo. You don't talk about money. Rio Ferdinand was obviously, he was quite clearly an entrepreneur right from midway through his career. I remember as a fan, seeing everything he was launching, clothing, brands. Rio Ferdinand presents that channel. If you go back through it, you can see videos he was making with Cristiano Ronaldo at the training ground in his first tenure at United. So Rio was kind of ahead of the game, building businesses right through. So it's no coincidence or accident that Rio is so successful now because he started building earlier than everyone else.

33:48Did you guys rip Wayne Rooney when he got onto Twitter first and did that? Can you pick me up from training tomorrow? We destroy him. We destroy him. We destroy him. But it was funny back in the day. Rio was rejected. Rio was rejected by the player. They were like, what he's doing? You're spending time. And Rio was keep saying, guys, this is the future. This is the future. But people were laughing at him. Do you think that's still the same state when startups are sexy? And bluntly, everyone cares what other people think about them. Not everyone, but most people care what other people think about them.

34:19And now it's quite cool to say, you know what? I'm an investor in Airbnb or I'm an investor in Uber. And Ashton Kutcher is too. And the best and LeBron is. And so is X. It's quite more sexy now saying this. But again, your teammate, your manager, the fan. You're spending too much money on that. You're spending too much money on this business, on that, instead of focus on the football. So you always get a backlash. No matter if it's good right now, you will get the backlash to the fan. The fan, you do a video, just one minute, and they will say, like, why are you not spending time at the training ground?

34:57But this is your private life. You do whatever you want. But they don't understand that, especially if you lose the game. But the explosion of consumer apps, obviously, in the last 15 years or so, would have made it cool, right? because these are the apps you interface with on your phone every day, the Ubers, Deliveroo, Spotify's of this world. So you want to get ahead and be part of that top 1 % the next time. Well, that and I also just think the money. I mean, Ashton Kutcher legitimately now has made more money from tech than he has from acting. Yeah. We'll just look at Federer and Honor alone is that one.

35:24Look at your friend, Flamini with Biotech. Your Arsenal friend. No, he's a friend. Did that change if you went into, we talked about clubs, but obviously then you go into a national setup and you've got a few of the French players now quite heavily involved. Did that change when you went away on international duties? I would say yes and no. I think even when you go back, you know, with the national team, of course, you represent your country or whatever. But first of all, sometimes you don't even want to talk to the people they're playing for, like a rivalry. Like, for example, Rio was giving an example.

36:00he couldn't be friends that much with John Terry or Steven Gerrard because they were playing for Liverpool. So it's quite tough, actually. Like I say, playing for your national team and the club is completely different. And sometimes people don't understand. They will say, oh, he's performing so well in the club, but in the national team. But no, because in the national team, sometimes you play with your enemy. But to be honest, I think the generation changed now because even me in my last few years in the national team, You could see now everyone doesn't care about the club. It's all about the country.

36:33So we become a proper family. I mean, I'm talking for the French national team. With startups, it's the same with everything. There are trendsetters. So obviously Ronaldo kicked off the Saudi revolution of players wanting to go out there. You have Jadon Sancho kicked off the revolution of young English players wanting to go and play abroad. And then you see the likes of Mario Goetze, Ika Casillas, Raphael Varane, Edu Mendy, those kind of guys going and blazing a trail with uh with startups so it kicks off it kicks off a movement when someone goes out there and does it first do you know edu yeah yeah of course i know him very well you know my dad is from senegal and congratulations because he's doing like some amazing things and he he just won the cup against cristiano uh but yes that's what i mean we we exchange checks with they do like if i have like a business you say patrice i saw that on your page.

37:21Can I get involved? You know, Blaise Mathieu D, Raphael Varane. So we are like a little bit, I will say, in advance compared to other players. But we've been there in this game for many years now. So we got like more credibility and people follow the actual player. They're still like, oh, Patrice, I see you doing this. Like, can I get involved? And of course, come, you're more than welcome. Knowing all that you know now and seeing all that you also see with younger players but what would you advise the current player playing today knowing all that you know this is a tough question i will say pick someone you trust someone is qualified in business and investment let him deal with it but make sure you spend once a week or whatever having a training session with him but let him doing the investment because if you put yourself on it like i said the priority is football.

38:14And just find someone you can trust, a family member or whatever, but start to invest like now when you got the big box and not at the end of your career. But doing it yourself, man, trust me, I wouldn't be in that place if I was still playing football. The energy I have to put in, you know, the focus, the traveling, because sometimes it's not just about Zoom call or whatever. You need to attend to event and all of that. I wouldn't be able to do it if I was playing, to be honest. This is an interesting part as well, because I mentioned to Tommy before when we were chatting and I think one of the biggest issues you see when athletes invest is when it's packaged up and it sells an athlete as an investor.

38:50And then when a company chooses them as the investor and they don't actually get the access to real issue, they're sold as the investor and then they're not engaged. Exactly. It has to come from, again, it has to come from you. It has to come from you. You're right. That's why if you see I never do a deal where they just want to use my image. Okay, Patrice is an investor because he put some money on. if I invest, I need to spend time in this business. I need to understand it. It's not like they're using my money or my image. For me, it's a long journey. And I see like many brands, they're using like players, they just put their face because they have a lot of followers and everything.

39:26They're not even aware of it. So I don't sign those kind of deals. If you want to put my face on it, I need to be involved. How important is LinkedIn being? We talked about various types of content. I reached out to you. We dropped a message on LinkedIn. I did the same when we just brought Cody Gakpo into a deal. and that was just seeing something he posted, being really active, said, this is what we do. Are you interested? He's now invested. But that came from him being proactive on a LinkedIn strategy. Yeah, I'm glad you say that. And I've been pushed, to be honest, by Tommy. Patrice, you know, you're doing a lot of business, but people don't see it.

39:57They see your stuff on Instagram. Sometimes they'll comment on Twitter or whatever. I think you need to share that, you know, that journey with people. And LinkedIn is the perfect example. It's the perfect platform if you want to build a real business and having more investors, you see, you send me a message on LinkedIn. Without that, I wouldn't come, you know, here and having this podcast. So yeah, this I say already thanks to Tommy. He pushed me on it. And trust me, it's worth it because now the domain I've got and the opportunity are even 10 times bigger. And I can also show to the world, you know, I'm not just, you know, a football player doing MMA fight or doing some crazy video.

40:34I love this game. Or Tina Turner. Or Tina Turner, you know, simply the best. I'm also like sharing that side because he was like, Patrice, I think, you know, it's not fair enough you don't show also that business side because, you know, you want to be humble and don't show. People laugh at you, but you don't want to show actually you're working hard behind the scene. But he is a perfect example. It blew up as soon as he went onto it because he had something like two to three thousand followers just from just existing, right? But he wasn't posting anything. And then as soon as he started posting, he's 10x his following.

41:04Really good engagement, but really good insights as well. One of the early things he posted was a video, a selfie video, just him on the sofa, just talking about the parallels between entrepreneurs and footballers. And it really struck a chord on LinkedIn. And I think that's why it's very authentic because there are just so many parallels between trying to be in the top 1 % of tech startups and obviously achieving being in the top 1 % of footballers. What's the most different thing between being a top performing athlete and a top performing business person? That's a tough question. I think you're not every time in control of everything, you know, of the markets or whatever.

41:40Sometimes you do an investment, yeah. But you have to take risk. But I feel like sometimes in football it's less risk. You're more like in your comfortable zone. I think that's the difference. And sometimes it's by instinct and, you know, you will take risk. Sometimes you will win. Sometimes you will lose. In football, they are really control freak. They control everything. The way you eat, your image, when you speak in an interview or stuff like that. I feel like businessmen, you know, maybe you say the wrong things and your own business, you know, collapse. Especially if you make the wrong comment.

42:13Maybe you had a deal with a partner and you say something, you know, bad about them or whatever, you lose the deal. So you have to be really careful. You're on your own. We mentioned Mendy. One that we constantly go back on is Saudi as a league versus the US as a league in terms of potential and future. I'm a betting man. I'm a venture investor for a living. If you were to put bets on which league has a brighter future, which league would you bet on? Well, if the US doesn't change its course of gating football for the rich and making it for people who can pay to play football, then they will always be behind Saudi because Saudi, when you go there, you've got kids who've been playing football in the streets, whereas in the US there's a lot of interest.

42:55But in order to play elite football, you've got to pay a lot of money in the US. So they're literally pricing out the working class who in any other country are where the elite talent comes from so until the u.s fix that it will saudi will soar ahead of them but if if the u.s do fix that my god there'll be a force i'm going for for saudi because people uh forget that it's not like everyone in saudi is a king or a sheikh or whatever it's a massive community and they are young and they are passionate about football i remember i was with ronaldo not cristiano but r9 and we were in the car. And what surprised me, I saw kids playing football in the street.

43:29You don't see that anymore in Europe. You will see people play five a side or the parents, they're going to push them in the academy. But I believe, you know, football is from the street and I'm a perfect example. That's where I built my skill, my leadership, my courage or whatever you call it, my surviving mood, underling the pressure. Because sometimes just me in the street, when you lose a game, You can get beat by the opponent because they're not happy. They lost the game. So that's why I feel like Saudi everyone was talking about it. And Cristiano, when he went there and I spoke with him, he said, Patrice, you will see, everyone will follow.

44:03And of course, to attract people, we say like it's about the money and everything. But now I think the average was like 23 years old. Now they want to reduce it to 21 years old. And trust me, they got the money. They won't stop. I always give the example of China. They try now because the king, Chinese are good at everything, like Olympic, how many medals there, but not in football. So he bring like Drogba, Anelka, you remember back in the day. At Oscar. At Oscar. But when you see the national team wasn't winning and improving, I think he stopped like paying the wages and they stopped the project.

44:35Then it was Dubai. But Dubai, they were attacking like the player, they were like maybe 45 years old or whatever, just with the name. And they started to stop. But why I believe in a Saudi is because they won't stop. They really want to do it. And trust me, on the TV, you don't see everything, but the fans actually are going to the game. They are really, really passionate. They are really passionate. But one thing that's held the Saudi back is because this massive influx of foreign players that have come in, which obviously raised the profile and the level of the Pro League, is the local players have suffered and they're not getting as many minutes.

45:10So you will have seen how well they performed at the World Cup. But the performance has dropped off a cliff and you saw obviously Mancini leaving his role there and their form has not been the same since the revolution that Ronaldo kicked off so there is going to be a period now where they're going to need to find their balance of settling obviously all these foreign players in and obviously calming down the level of imports that are coming from Europe. This has been a problem in football you could say forever. I mean, you know, Chelsea fans for our sins, sorry. But, you know, you look at the academy that's always been said they were the best producers of talent yet how many members of that academy ever actually made it up into that first team post-John Terry.

45:47It took years. It took until Fran Lampard was a manager and he had that little group of Rhys James and Tammy Abraham and Mason Mount to really make a lot. Doesn't get enough credit for that. Doesn't get enough credit for that. That season was amazing. Doesn't get enough credit as a manager, full stop. He's done amazingly right. Brilliant. Incredible. But, you know, that's been an issue for so long. It's just part of the game, isn't it? It's part of the game we have to work with. And when you're a big team like Chelsea or Mania or whatever, you need direct results. It's not like you've got time.

46:13So you're going to play those kids but you need to build them. is take time sometimes. You know, Man United have Kobe Menno, Marcus Rashford or whatever. So we are proud of it. But you got like three or four, Scott McTominay. You got like just few players, but you need the result. Now it's a business world. So if the manager doesn't succeed right now, if he doesn't win this year, he gets sacked. And you want him to get sacked because he was trying to build something from the academy. He have no time. He have no time. For the manager, he's so tough because they need to win. So they need a player.

46:45they need to buy a foreign player or whatever, he's ready to play in that level. So if you were to advise an owner on that situation of, hey, you need short-term results, but we also want long-term development, what would you advise them? Give them more time? I will always give them more time. But if you don't get the results, you're going to get sacked because you're going to have the pressure from the fan. You're going to have the pressure from the media. So at the end, I'm sure many owners, they make the decision, not because they didn't like their manager, because this was the plan to build something, you know, in the long...

47:18But when after the media, you get pressure, boom, you make the wrong decision. Which manager you played for do you think got let go too early? I think he's the only one. I think I have only one manager get sacked when I was playing football. It was David Moyes. I was really sad. I know a lot of my teammates, they were like, Patrice, he didn't have the level and everything, but I was always blaming us. I was like, oh, guys, actually, we were super good. Not because we are good. It's because we were scared of Sir Alex Ferguson. So why now we will have to blame Moyes? Don't get me wrong. It's not like he was the best or whatever, but it was a shock.

47:56Because I remember I had a meeting with the football director and he was like, oh, Patrice, what are we doing with the manager? I said, what are we doing? We have to blame us. We have to wake up. It's not about the manager. Then, you know, I have to be honest. He said, did he lost the dressing room? And I couldn't lie to my own, to my club. I say, yes, he lost the dressing room, but we still have to blame ourselves and don't, you know, don't sack him. I think a few managers have been sacked prematurely at United. I thought Van Gaal did a good job and he deserved to see out his contract. I thought Mourinho did a good job.

48:26He deserved to see out his contract. And I thought Ole Gunnar Solskjaer did a bloody good job. And I don't think he gets anywhere near enough credit for what he delivered for those few years. But it's the pressure. He's a business guy. Mourinho still says he's adamant that his greatest achievement is finishing second. He was not wrong. yeah did you let the media impact your psychology or your mindset oh no never but like i say i'm i'm quite different like i say i've not done any academy maybe you know when you're in academy they tell you how to speak to the media or whatever it doesn't affect me because those people they don't know me the only things will affect me is when you talk about my family and that's why some french journalists one day they say patrice will even sell his old mom to to get back to the French national team and I destroy them one by one because he's a lion.

49:14That's when you can affect me. But me, it's your opinion. If you say I had a bad game, if you are the worst player in the world or whatever, why you want me to fight with it? But if someone from my circle or my family tell me that, it will affect me because I didn't need the media to build my entire career. Nobody helped me. It's from the street and to there. So I didn't care. I never like read the paper and I would say that to the player. don't read the paper because you're going to play one good game they're going to say you're the best of the world you're going to play one bad game they're going to say you're the worst of the world so why you want me to why you want the media to affect me do you think players should be on social media it's a very vicious place if you don't have a good game again that's why people blame them they like imagine now how many billion of people can talk about it back in the day you only have the back page of the Sun or whatever.

50:07You have two pages in France. You have L 'Equipe. Now everyone behind his computer can judge you. You know, what they did to Harry Maguire was disgusting. You know, a lot of things like that. I think he's a bully because they were like, you know, he's the worst player in the history. We bought them like 80 million. They went to his house. They did like a lot of things. And for him, that's why I give him a lot of credit to stick and to stay at Man United and what he's doing, the way he's performing. Man. What a guy. I mean, the level that you can see some of the stats, you can just type in like Harry Maguire abuse stats and Google and just have a look at that.

50:40What he had to endure was just unprecedented. And for him to come back, obviously have the captaincy stripped off him, come back roaring the way he has now, what a guy, like what pillar of resilience. He showed you his personality. But I think, yeah, when you ask whether players should have social media, obviously, like you said, adapt or die, you need to build your audience. And players, in terms of player power, their brands are bigger than clubs in some respects. So if you want to build a legacy for when your career ends, you need to build that audience. But you can have your cake and eat it and get someone to manage it for you so you don't have to see that abuse.

51:12So you can focus on training. But authenticity is key. Thank you. I'll give you credit for it. Right. You've nailed this now because, back to my first question, is it you? It's you. Right. And if I'm a consumer, I can go and engage with any player's account. What do I want? I want to see something different. I want to see their personality. I want to see their stories. But that was post-playing career that he was able to do that without pressure. But even during my career, because I was still playing for Juventus at the high level, I did the Euro. I was the one answering to the comment when I got time, when I'm in the airport, I take my time.

51:45I love doing that because I feel connected with them. And even sometimes they say, this guy is so hilarious. He's actually himself answering to the comment. But yes, because I will love every joke. And even sometimes I can have some bad comment because I did a post when I say, you know, Cristiano is better than Messi and you're going to have like some racist comments sometimes. I don't have them a lot but you know when they're going to put like for example the monkey emoji I would say don't put the monkey emoji put the gorilla emoji it's stronger. The monkey is too soft. I love it. I love it. And you can delay those comments you can whatever block the people I don't do that.

52:21I let them because this is me I know how to protect myself. Some people that doesn't know but trust me guys I'll just let you know it's me. I'm answering to the comment the first hour or whatever when i got time it's me was there ever a post you did that you had to take down yeah weekly today no i will tell you and i didn't and everyone asked me to take it down is the post when i was people keep saying i was licking the chicken i was kissing the chicken you know it was thanksgiving i did that mad video when i'm just like cuddling the chicken, slapping him and everyone, you need to take it down with my team.

53:00I say, I don't. This is me. That day I was crazy. I don't regret it. So no, I didn't take it. Even if my full team say to take it down, this is me. I am perfect to be imperfect. That's the way I am. But clubs are very protective of their current players. So we'll work with clubs and we'll work with players and we'll do content about players. But there are some Premier League clubs where I know you're doing a good thing for them, but we don't want to overhype them we don't we just want them to focus so i do get that and that's why you'll see a very media trained aesthetic you won't necessarily see the insight to them as a character because the club wants to protect them is that the club is that the age of player is that common is the clubs small clubs they have their guidelines and they don't they want to protect the player especially if they're protecting the player is that media rights protection ip protection no no it's genuinely protecting the interest of the even in the press conference you know as a captain you have to go and I was the worst client for the PR of the club and I was the best client for the press because if she were oh don't say that I would say the opposite I say I'm going there I talk the way you know I feel I'm authentic this is myself so they were always scared when I was going to the press conference and to be honest I was always going there making people smile and see yes the perfect example of that when you're working for Amazon and you went to the CBS desk on the way out and just caused chaos and I remember Hannah was saying, was after, she was like, no, what has he done?

54:22And I said, no, no, no, this is genius. Watch the views go up. And yes, you might have some brands that might be a bit iffy tomorrow. Give it a few months. They're going to be killing. I just say, it was one team. I say, last year, they shit themselves. And after, I think it was, she was like, oh, we don't curse on TV. I say, Pupu is not cursing. So that's it. I was just being myself, you know, what's the problem? I saw it the other day when Cole Palmer was doing an interview and he was actually just going, you know, I've been dealing with all this shit for not scoring. Everyone's saying it and we have a lot to deal with.

54:52I'm going to come back. I'm going to play well. He normally, he's deadpan. He doesn't normally say a lot in interviews. Afterwards, you look at every headline. It was all about that interview. And he just showed a bit of humanity. Yeah, he cared. But that's really important. You know, no matter when Cristiano did his interview, of course, he talked against the Man United and everything, but he talked with his heart. And back in the day, I was like, I know maybe he did the wrong things against the club, but I love it because I see that human side and that's what people people look listen your fan they're not stupid they knew when it's someone like doing your stuff and whatever they want the authenticity they want to make sure you are the one posting your stuff and answering to the comment it doesn't make sense and I know you're busy that's the way they have to build is a brand but you know when they're gonna stop playing football the fan yeah they're gonna you think they're going to still follow them?

55:42Oh, well done. We play a good game. Oh, we deserve the three points. What is this? People, oh, you're on social media and you share your personality or you don't. That's why I don't like talking about football in social media. It's myself doing my crazy video, bringing some like crazy positive energy and that's it. What else do you think no one sees about being a top athlete that more people should see? I think the real personality. Nobody sees a real personality because we are robots and we tell what to say when you go to an interview. It wasn't my case, but you don't know, Did you get in trouble?

56:19Massive trouble, but it doesn't matter because this is me. Then I knew at the end of the day, it will pass. I will do another, be in trouble again and it will pass again. That's the way I am. I always believe in positivity, but because I am myself, it doesn't matter if I, you know, I won't please everyone. I'm doing like, You know when people they think I'm doing those videos. Yeah, someone, oh, you didn't post a Monday video. I had like a bad week or whatever. No, I'm not doing it. I do it because I'm so pleasing myself, pleasing you. Did it ever cause friction with teammates? If I was on your team, you could say, oh, come on, dude.

56:56Oh, many, many people will say like, like at the beginning when I start my lot of people call me, why are you doing this? Like even my my my own agent, you're the captain of fraud, you're the captain of my you putting wigs, you're dancing. I'm like, this is my private life. Judge me on the pitch. No, I get lost. They didn't understand. Then now, they're like, you're a genius. Actually, you were building a community. You know, I love this game and whatever. I said, I'm not a genius. I'm just crazy. I didn't do any strategy. I just share myself. But actually, the time, you know, proved me I was right.

57:29But I didn't wait anything for other people. I was just, you know what? I don't do a lot of interview. I don't share. Now I will be in control. just moonwalked into building an audience exactly but in terms of my insight of seeing what others don't see so seeing how pat deals with say the press coming after him or not what the wider public don't see is the pressure and the strain behind the scenes and how they deal with it and how they come back from it and the resilience and obviously we're talking about harry mcguire you talk about rasmus hoyland being through a goal drought now he's bounced back scored a couple goals it's like how do they break through those barriers and we don't see that we don't see like the the mental battle that they go through behind the scenes and i've obviously seen it with with Patrice when you are in let's say a player environment and you've got these young kids in front of you you know top level already really good Pat's in there and he's having these kind of conversations do you see a level of like engagement and interaction hell yeah today yeah today we did a session with some of the players in our community there were some were academy players some were non-league players all similar age group and you could just see the level of intensity and they were doing a 1v1 drill and the attacking players just kept getting past the defenders and Pat was like whoa whoa whoa came in and stopped the stop the session gave him a bollocking, show them what they needed to do.

58:36And after that, the defenders won every single duel. It was brilliant to see that level of intensity and see how he impacted them. But I'm connected to them because, you know, I'm not here to selling dream. This is the way I succeed. So this is my story. And, you know, if I spend time, it's really, I'm going to tell them the best advice. He worked for me. Maybe he won't work for this. But I try to understand their personality, their character, to feel them. Like Sir Alex Ferguson, in nine years, he never teach me anything tactically. He never said, like, go to the left, give to the right. But he know how to get the best of me.

59:07He know I don't like the injuries. So some game I will play an amazing game. He would say, oh, you're bad in front of everyone. So for the second half, he will wake up the beast. So it's all about how you manage people. It was literally knowing how to get the best out of you and your personality. Listen, I have like so many examples. It was just the speech of Ferguson was like, guys, It's Sunday. It's a nice weather. I don't want anyone to fuck up my Sunday. Good luck. That's it. That's it. It's not like about we have to press, we have to do this, we have to do that. I told that story early on.

59:39You know, we were playing against Tottenham. I was playing some of the best 45 minutes in my life. Came back in the dressing room. Everyone was like, oh my God, Patrice, you're on fire and everything. So I was like, you know, I'm looking good. And, you know, Ferguson for 10 minutes, he doesn't talk. And when he did this, it meant like someone is in trouble. So he looked at me, he was like, Patrice, are you okay? I said, yes. He said, are you tired? Tired? I said, no, why? He said, why you pass the ball back to Edwin Vondersaer, our goalkeeper? I said, boss, this was only one back pass in 45 minutes.

1:00:13I didn't have any solution for it. And he stood up, this is one of the worst games you're playing for United since I signed you for United. If you pass the ball back again, you're going to watch the rest of the game next to me, like spitting him off. So I stood up, I was beating my lips. I was like, but this, this man is crazy. You know, even Ryan Giggs calls, they say, Patrice is getting too old. You know, leave it. So second half, boom, we won 4-0. I won the man of the match. And you know, everyone was Patrice. I told you, don't listen. You were on fire. And so I never answer back to the manager in front of my teammate.

1:00:43And the next day, I went to his office. I opened the door. Hello, Patrice. How are you, son? Oh, I am boss. What's happened yesterday? Oh, Patrice, you were fantastic. You were the best player on the pitch. But, you know, Cristiano Ronaldo was starting doing some skill. We were missing some chance. The fans, they need entertainment. When you score one goal, you have to score two, three, four. The people are paying for the show. And I was like, boss, you know, this one was a close one. Next time, you know, make a sign because he said, get off of my office. So when I closed the door, you know, I realized.

1:01:20I was like, he used the best player on the pitch to send a clear message to the other player because they were like, wait, if he's destroying Patrice, he's giving the air dryer. What about us? But because he knew I could take it. And for me, it would be an injustice. He knew the second half, I would even run harder and not like, OK, you know, I'm the best or whatever. So that's what I call management. So you need to know every single people. And Ferguson, trust me, he was maybe like 100 people working at Carrington and Old Trafford. He know everyone by each name. He will send a present. He will know the birthday even of your wife or stuff like that, Christmas, because he want to know your personality.

1:02:00Oh, he can get the best. But Ferguson in nine years, he will surprise many people. He never teach me anything tactically. We mentioned unwavering discipline, obsession. You mentioned Ronaldo there. just from the outside when you watch this level of obsession monitoring data that he uses what's your biggest observation from playing alongside him first of all don't ever go for lunch at christiano house because it's going to be the most boring lunch you know i always tell that story after training he invited me at his house he said patrick's come we're gonna have a lunch so i arrived i saw plain chicken salad not even sparkling water no bread and everything so we start eating You know, he was really dry, so I didn't say nothing because he was some of a member of his family.

1:02:46Then after we start playing like a two touch, you know, I was like, oh, OK, so where are we going there? Then we start going for a swim, then a sauna. Then I was inside the sauna. I was like, but Cristiano, you say like we're going to have a lunch. Why we have a second training session? This is the last time I come to your house. No, the dedication is just crazy. It's another level. Training at 10, he will show up at 8. After training, we in the shower. he's still practicing his skill. That's why people don't understand when I pick, you know, Cristiano over Messi. I think I'm just in love with his work ethic.

1:03:19You know, that's what I love. That's what I admire about him. No matter the level he still is, he will be the first in the training and training like so hard. He's a machine, you know, and for anything. I remember they were playing a tennis table match against Rio Ferdinand and Cristiano lost in front of everyone. Everyone was laughing and everything. And in two weeks, like he said, I want my revenge. I said, Cristiano, you know, Rio is good. You know what he did? He sent his cousin by a tennis table. He practiced for two weeks. He came back and he beat Rio. It's just like that dedication of that mindset of winning everything.

1:03:54He want to win the best dresser in the dressing room, the best looking guys. Whatever you have to do, he has to win. You know, I doubt it will happen, but I would love when all is said and done and they both hang up their boots that if they have that kind of Federer and Nadal moment and embrace and say, you know what? We were enemies as players. we were rivals but you pushed me to new heights that i otherwise wouldn't have got to i love you i wish that would happen i'm not sure i think yeah yeah obviously i said i doubt it he's one of the most powerful poses isn't it it's the one where these nadal or federal reaches for their hands they're both crying on the screen you're just like oh my god yeah if you didn't shed a tear from that then you have a heart of stone patrice is there anyone where the media wants you in the world wants you to not like them but actually you really like them so like if you're a man you play you're not supposed to like really like a Chelsea player.

1:04:41It's like, no, we want the rivalry. We want that tension. No, I think the media play a role like to the A. But to be honest, it's not like I love Chelsea players. Chelsea players. It's not like I love Liverpool players. I respect them. And you see like people say about like Jamie Carragher or Steven Gerrard, the same love and passion they have for their club. That's the same love I've got for my club. So straight away, you create a connection like GT or whatever. So, yes, of course, we are no friends when the game's going to start. I'm going to make sure we smash them. But actually, it's a massive respect.

1:05:16And it's no hate. It's different. It's no hate. Like I always say, playing against Manchester City back in the day was like beating your noisy neighbor. Winning against Liverpool, you win against the enemy. Winning against Arsenal, you're winning against your babies. Winning against Chelsea, it means you're going to win the league. because they were the most similar team, like character, person dropped by John Terry, Anelka, Makelele, whatever. You will see like he was 11 men against 11 men. And Ferguson also was always against Chelsea. This is the biggest game because if we beat them, we know we're going to win the league and even the Champions League.

1:05:54It was quite interesting in that time though, because a lot of what we've just talked about has been about, you know, when it's been football, it's the power of the manager and how influential that was. Your biggest competitor at the time, actually, yes, obviously Mourinho, but Mourinho left in 2007. you were successful for a long time after that Chelsea's spine that group of players in that dressing room it wasn't necessarily the manager that did it it was that group who seemed to hold the most incredible set of consistencies and ideals that it didn't I'm not saying it didn't matter who managed them but it was very you know you're there with one when staple and they're there changing this I think Jose built that spine and really built that with Drogba Terry and co and Lampard but then it was because you saw with Abraham Grant afterwards how strong that spine remained and got to the Champions League final that year with essentially an interim manager.

1:06:36Can I tell you something exactly? Like, as a United player, we were like, we can't lose against Everbrun. I have all due respect for him as an interim manager. This player role, like we were like, okay, if he's Mourinho, but guys, come on, we can't lose against Everbrun. So the manager have a massive factor. That was the first time I cried at a football match. Sorry about that. Barcelona, when the ref was terrible. Yeah, this was painful. I cried at that, I was young. But that was the year after. The reason I was so upset with that is because if that hadn't have happened, Chelsea Manu would have had their rematch in the final.

1:07:10To be honest, as a United player and the way it happened with the referee, we were actually gutted for Chelsea. We were actually gutted. We wanted Chelsea and the revenge. It's just it would have been, again, and you lost the final. What was the hardest time at United for you? I think when Sir Alex Ferguson left. I think I was such in pain. it was like losing someone losing your dad or whatever so i think this is the most painful moment the hardest moment but also the best moment it was my debut when i just arrived for monte carlo first game the debut against manchester city i remember first time in my life i play at 12 at noon i don't i'm not a breakfast guys i see michael silvestro and luisa eating beans and pasta so i I said, you know, I need to adapt.

1:08:00I need to do the same. So I start eating. I just training three days with the team. I remember I feel sick. I went in my room, start vomiting and everything. The doctor came and I say, you know what? No, I will play the game. I'm fine. Whatever. And I remember the first five minutes, Trevor Sinclair from Manchester City. Boom. Head ball. Welcome to the Premier League. And, you know, I was at the post. Like, it was a corner kick. And, you know, when you talk to yourself, I was like, what the hell I'm doing here? I was in Monte Carlo chilling. The football is so fast. It's so strong. Oh, my God.

1:08:33I remember half time. Imagine I've been named the best left back in the League One, in French League, playing for the national team, being in the final of Champions League in 2004. We beat Chelsea that year. And being subbed after 45 minutes on your first game. You subbed after? Ferguson gave the air dryer to everyone. He said, Patrice, you're going to sit next to me and learn how to play in England. So, and it gets even worse is when I back home, my agent was there with his wife. And I remember he put his hand like this on my shoulder. He was like, Patrice, I'm sorry. I said, what? He said, I'm sorry.

1:09:11I should never bring you to United. The challenge is too big for you. You should have stayed in Monaco. So even your own agent start dubbing about you. I remember me and Vidic talking like, well, I will go maybe in Italy, Vidic was, I will go back, you know, in a Spartak or Belgrade or whatever. So, but I love it because it was my first six months. I came in the winter and I missed the World Cup. Mikael, Silvestro and Luisa went to the World Cup and all the summer I was in the gym in Monaco, walking out because I realized to play in this league. Now I need to be strong first in my leg. Then after I can play with my technically or my my speed or whatever.

1:09:51it was a good learning lesson even Rio Ferdinand and when Rune were laughing at me at the warm-up you know when I was going on the floor Paul Scholl say he think I was a joker you know like riding horse I was like so tiny and everything and he was like oh Patrice I'll be honest I say to the boss like we should sell you back for free to Monte Carlo to tell you he was no friend they tell me you were shit and they tell me that face to face and this helped me a lot I feel like we've lost a bit of this in football we lost Now everyone is friend. Everyone is like cuddling. But me, I love that because they tell me like, what you're doing?

1:10:28You let us down. You better wake up. Then when I came back, man, they say, wow, this guy is a tough man. I just feel like now a lot of the time that happens to a player and they would go into a shell. We lost that in work. No, it worked or in whatever. But like I say, it's a new generation. People are, I don't like to say using the word softer, but you got so much help before you were on your own. You know, our team, trust me, you know many times Ferguson have to stop the training session because we were killing each other. We weren't friends. Sometimes the training session will end up after 30 minutes because the small game at the training was more important than the game in the weekend.

1:11:05If you lose the small game in training, you're going to get people wearing fuming, like throwing shoes in the dressing room, like how many times we fight between each other. We weren't friends. We were here to win. you're not my friend I will die for you if you die for me if you doesn't die for me get out of here simple it was serious and Ferguson always had that thing like you know people are are like paying to come to they're travelling around the world for them so we play for the badge for the fan you know it wasn't about us do you think football is more mercenaries today though where it doesn't matter but also the club also are mercenaries so that's why I can't criticise the player but also the club now If they don't do a good business with you, if you're not selling enough shirt, if you don't have like a good, I would say follower on social media, sometimes this can change why they're going to, you know, sign you or whatever.

1:11:58And when you get injury, the club, like they get rid of you. They get rid of you. They buy another player. So it's both sides. It's both sides. But us back in the day was just like being proud. Like, for example, if you draw a game, even if you draw a game, I will be shamed to go in a restaurant with my kids and my wife. Now people, they lose a game. next they are in a nightclub it's a different generation you want me to judge them? I don't know. Do you think players feel like commodities traded next, next, next next, next but look at the social media next, next, next you just scroll you just scroll that's the brain we want every time something new we don't enjoy actually the actually present when like you see I was talking with like an Arsenal fan they already next year we're going to win the league but you you just lost you just lost you didn't You already next, next, next.

1:12:47Focus on the present. Enjoy the present. That's why people ask me, wow, what was your transition? I didn't regret anything because I enjoy every moment. Every moment I enjoy them. So that's why for me now is a new life. It's a new career. I'm doing so many new things because I enjoy every moment. And it's tough to leave the present. But if you think of players as commodities, you can't really blame the clubs. It's the industry. So say when you sign a player and they're coming in on a five-year contract, you know that after three years, the maximum value they'll be able to sell them is at that point where they're two years left on the contract.

1:13:22And then it's like do or die. It's either you extend their deal then or you sell them. And that's why I say McTominay, his contract was running down. He was one of United's best players last season, banging the goals and he's doing the same thing in Napoli this year. He's probably going to win, hopefully win the Scudetto now. But he had to be sold because his contract was running down. Either you give him a new contract or you sell him and that's how the business is structured. I was listening to the radio this morning and I don't know if you saw but I watched the Liverpool Arsenal game yesterday and Trent, when they booed him when he came on and then all the fans were on and the discussion was this guy's given everything he's a one club man yes fine he's making the move but give the guy a chance but I think the interesting piece on there was like the real issue if you listen to the fans was the fact that they were losing him for free it was like it was basically them saying oh he could have signed an extension but like Coutinho did which means we would have got a fee for it But he hasn't joined a local rival.

1:14:14He's gone to Real Madrid after achieving everything. He's probably the most successful Englishman of the Premier League era. Champions League and two Premier Leagues. The guy's done everything. Let him go. Let him leave on a high. I can't believe that. I think it's frustration and love. You know, when you love someone, when he leaves, you hate him straight away. Yeah. If he goes to a rival though, he's going to Real Madrid. I know, but they won't understand that. Riding off into the sunset. It's a Liverpool mentality as well. They don't see there's another club. Yeah, yeah. It's a family feel in Liverpool.

1:14:41and what Jamie Carragher was saying is like you can't get you can't empathise with the Scouser because we are our own people we do things our own way so I get that and everywhere's got its own culture right but it would have been the same with United you would have looked at yourselves as like the pinnacle right so if someone leaves you and goes to another club and you feel you still have things to offer you're not going to enjoy it you're not going to like it I mean me I didn't have the choice like in 2008 after we won the Champions League and the league I was end of the contract Madrid approached me I was earning more money or whatever Ferguson said no you stay here so I signed another four years I couldn't pick and say I need to leave I'm allowed to ask a very gauche question rude question you said French what was the biggest contract you signed?

1:15:26the biggest contract I signed I will say probably when I renew for United because of course Ferguson say you don't go but I think I was the third a player best pay in the club and Ferguson was like okay you stay but I gave you also that it was uh difficult to refuse but I was going to earn more money at Madrid we charge more yes I think at least a million per year more that's the other side of it so yeah but I love you're united through and through I have united in my DNA like I say it's not like I need my United, but I love Man United. We had Peter Kenyon on the show, the former CEO. Yes. And he did a chat with Rio on Rio Presents and he was talking about the signing of contracts at United and he talks about when he renewed.

1:16:16And he was talking about the leveraging of money against what could be offered elsewhere. And supposedly it was that, you know, well, you may not be the best played here, but at United. Yeah, at United. It's a privilege to play here. And again, back to the people in my environment, even my Asian, they were like, listen, we're gonna get a massive bonus when you sign but you're a united player don't leave they could have pushed me and to say like we get more money go to madrid but i didn't stay they didn't okay we're gonna do a quick fire so we say a short statement and then you give us a immediate response sound okay yeah you go first okay so we mentioned uh what a bad lunch looks like if we come around to your house for lunch what are you cooking us pasta bolognese i'm the best like i beat michelle roux a two Michelin star to La Gravroche, a restaurant.

1:17:05In front of this team, we did a blind test. So yeah, we'll cook pasta bolognese. It's my favorite dishes. Tommy? It would be a pizza. It would just be a classic New York margarita, crispy base. And you're making it? Making it in a stone oven in my garden. No, I wouldn't have a clue. I'm talking hypothetically. Tommy, what does no one see about Patrice that you see through working with him so close? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's the intensity I mean you do see the intensity obviously in terms of the energy but I think it's the intense work ethic it's the guy he spends more time on airplanes than pilots so it's just a ridiculous work ethic and just spreading himself thinly but still getting the job done you're going to have one more investor to player that is an athlete who do you choose?

1:17:52I mean as a United fan there's only one person out there it's got to be Cristiano Ronaldo and obviously he is active in business himself but growing up, idolising him as a player just being in total admiration of his career and when you get dragged into the Messi-Ronaldo debate if you're asking a United fan just don't ask me that question as much as I love Messi I'm just not going to get dragged into that debate because Ronaldo has delivered me unparalleled joy as a teenager, as an adult It's like the Lampard-Gerald Scholes isn't it? I'm always going to say Lampard you'll always probably say Scholes a Liverpool fan thinks Gerard Even with you, you're right.

1:18:27Who was the most behind-the-scenes superstar within United? Everyone goes on, Ronaldo, the obsession, the focus, the focus. Who was the behind-the-scenes machine? Park Jason. Really? The best team player I ever played with. You can ask Colce, you can ask Wren Rooney, you can ask Ferguson. For me, he was one of the most important players. Why? because of his work ethic and the way he will always put the team he will even sacrifice his own quality his own job like just a perfect example the semi-final you know against barcelona in 2008 when he was man of the match he didn't play the final the game against pierlo when pierlo normally average i would say 450 touch per game when he played against man united then ferguson tell jason park you follow him everywhere i think he had like only 45 touch so he's a lot of example playing with G, man, you're going to have like an easy game.

1:19:25He's going to run like, especially me as a left back. He's going to run for me. He's going to defend for me. He's so smart. He's always between those pockets. You can ask any player of United and I guarantee you, they're going to say G's on back. Final one from me. When we look forward 10 years to Patrice Evra 2035, what do you want that Patrice Evra to be? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just want you to see the same little boy being happy with everything he do, giving to people. I don't have any goal in life. It's always to push myself. I always say, sometimes if you have a goal in life and you don't reach that goal, you will feel like a failure.

1:20:05Instead of putting a goal there, I just push myself to be the better version of myself every day. I am perfect to be imperfect. I will still do a lot of mistakes. I will still learn. but it's just like keep being that little child and being grateful and blessed and content because you know sometimes people ask me patrice what make you happy i say what make me happy is when my kids are happy when my wife my family my friend no what make you happy no what make me happy is when people are happy that's what make me happy and the only answer i could give to that to that ladies it was like i'm happy when i go in cinema on my own and eating popcorn i think that's when i i feel like the more peaceful but actually when i think about that is because i'm content i'm just content happy is being content that that little boy who is now the owner of a football tech unicorn on the topic of chelsea by the way you guys you're both chelsea fans presumably right yeah you've got a very bright future so with the with the insights obviously we've got through our community of these elite youngsters, both on the men's and women's side, you've got some phenomenal...

1:21:15Because we went to Cobham last year and you've got... I mean, Lola Brown on the women's side is an absolute baller. She's just made a WSL debut, but keep an eye out for Lola. And on the men's side, Shimweka, I think he's had his debut, but he's a powerful striker. Tayo Shubuloye, centre-back, keep an eye out for him. Frankie Runham. So yeah, you guys, I'm jealous. I mean, we've got a great academy as well, actually. And don't get me wrong, business come to me so I can't tell you exactly what I'm going to do in 10 years for sure I'm going to have more business more investment but I can't tell you what it will be it depends on the person I'm going to meet when I'm going to travel or whatever like maybe like I said after this podcast we're going to maybe do a business in a year or a few months we never know in life we never know everything happened for a reason I'm not here in this podcast just no it was supposed to happen.

1:22:08That's it. It's a beautiful way to end it. It's a really beautiful way. That's kind of perfect. Thank you so much for doing this. No, you're welcome. It's been fantastic. Thank you, James. Thanks for having us. Really appreciate it. You're welcome. Well, that was one massive session. I hope you all enjoyed it. We trialed a new format in that conversation and I would love to know what you thought of it. Four people in the studio was really fun. It built a kind of conversation and engagement that is hard to have when it's two people asking one person questions. but when you have someone like Patrice in there telling amazing stories and someone like Tommy capable of giving the context as to why it's so valuable we thought the conversation hit every mark that we were hoping.

1:22:45Patrice's stories are legendary and he has told many of them in other platforms but I felt that this was a slightly different approach to the types of conversations he normally has and we were privileged to be able to sit down and hear firsthand from him how he built his career in football and how that's become so important in business and away from the pitch we really hope you enjoyed the show thank you so much for joining us and if you want to see more from today's show you can do so by going to youtube and typing in business of sport but before we leave you this is digital fitness coaching at its peak i'm so excited for us to partner with runner a relationship that's going to get us all up and out there me included pacing the streets woodlands parks beachfronts but backed up by elite level insight and accessibility this is the kind of coaching that used to be reserved for the pros now all you need is a pair of shoes and a goal Now I'm terrible at sticking to anything without a plan.

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