Patrick Mouratoglou: From Serena to Djokovic, What Makes the Best Players in the World? (Ep86)

26:45Why wouldn't he think he's not going to make it? Of course he will. So nothing beats experiences, positive ones. We've barely talked about a tennis draw. So much of what you do is psychological. When we were dissecting recently with Dominic, the difference between a top 100, 150 player. I'm guessing from what you're saying, it's the ability to handle those moments as much as it is their natural ability to actually play the game. How do you work with that as a coach? It makes me think about something that Richard William said to me because I asked him, of course, how did you do that with your two daughters to make them both number one in the world?

27:18This is crazy. You don't even know tennis. I mean, I didn't say that to him, but... But I thought it. That's unbelievable. That's one of the most incredible things everyone has ever done in tennis. What he told me is, I realized that you win a match on three, four, five points. Breakpoint for you, breakpoint against you. Are you going to win those points or not? These are the critical moments of a match that will turn in your favor or against you. On those matches, the emotion, the stress is extremely high because players know, wow, I have to save this breakpoint or I have to make that breakpoint.

27:56Otherwise, maybe I'm going to lose. So the stress level is super high. In a stress level, two people in the same stress level, the more confidence of the two will always handle the stress better. That's how I raise my daughters. So they're crazy confident and whatever they're going to do in life, they're going to succeed because they have the confidence. That's exactly my point. If your question is, how do I work on that? I create a lot of positive experiences every single day. I talk to my player in a way that he or she thinks this guy knows and this guy has zero doubt. When I feel it's too much stress for them, I take the responsibility.

28:34Many times I told my player, listen, just do what I tell you to do. And we're going to meet in three months and you're going to just look at your ranking and you'll be surprised. I always often say, oh, thank you. when they're in a stress. No, but when the stress is too high, when the pressure is too high, when they're in a losing streak, they can't handle it. You have to help them. In that moment when it's starting to spiral, it could be in game, it could be out of game, but you're starting to see the confidence wane and the downfall start. We're not down at the bottom, but we're starting to see it go.

29:10How do you interrupt the cycle early early to prevent the downfall? That's a very good question. And this is very important. It's like a salesperson. If a salesperson doesn't sell anything today, it's going to hurt him. If he doesn't sell tomorrow, it's going to start to be really bad. And if he doesn't sell the third day, he's done. He's really deep in the shit and it's going to be extremely difficult to come back. So you need to make them win. When you hear coaches who say, okay, we're going to make a technical change for six months probably the player is going to lose a lot but after it's going to be better i heard that 100 times i said no chance this is too easy you're taking pressure away from yourself as a coach you need to find a way to make the technical change and make this player keep winning otherwise you're destroying him when i have young players i say to all my coaches i want 70 of victories that's your problem i want 70 if those tournaments are too strong mix them with less strong tournaments so you keep that winning thing you can't let them lose you have to stop immediately it was what i did with naomi it was akia it was she was at a point when she was struggling i said to her listen you play great in the matches at the moment you're not performing the way you you can perform it's okay we're gonna go play matches and we went to a smaller tournament and she won it.

30:35And that was very important for her. It's fine. There are always solutions to stop a losing cycle. You have to stop it one way or another. I won't let someone play only Masters 1000 when they're losing in the first round. I mean, there is no way to lose in the first round. No chance. Imagine you lose in the first round every week. I mean, after three months, you're destroyed. Destroyed. So, actually, when I started with Holger, he was I think he lost, I don't remember if it's six or nine first rounds in a row when I started with him. That was crazy. And what did we do? We started after six or nine first rounds.

31:14Can you imagine how much that is? And he said, we start to work. And after a few days, he starts to feel very confident. And he tells me, okay, I have three tournaments before the end of the season, an ATP 250, an ATP 500, an ATP 1000. Like the level is super high. The guy was 30 in the world. He was very young. He was 19 years old. That was his best ranking. And he said to me, I want to win the three so I can play the Masters. I mean, any coach who would hear this coming from this guy would think, this guy is crazy. Well, it makes no sense. And you know what I said? I said, of course, let's go for that.

31:46Of course. He won the 250, played the final of the 500, and won the 1 ,000, beating five top 10, including Alcaraz and Novak Djokovic in the final. so nothing is impossible if the guy believes he can do it why did he believe he can do it because he has a big ego and a lot of self-confidence in general so he was affected by the first rounds but he was excited to change something to be with me we started to work and he started to feel good and suddenly how do you approach goal setting in that case and more broadly where he says i have a goal to win those three and as you said everyone would have said it's not possible.

32:26But you said, okay, let's go do it. Should we set unachievable goals because they're ambitious? Or should we set more realistic goals and retain a sense of rationality? On the short term, I would never propose a goal that I'm not sure almost 100 % that the player is going to make. Because again, I want to build positive experiences. If the goal is here, short term tomorrow how are you going to have these little victories you're going straight to a crazy high victory when you don't have even small ones the chances of success are almost zero why did i say yes to um to holger because i could feel he really believed it first and second i always let players make mistakes if it's a mistake then we're going to talk and we're going to solve it you know i did this many times i always i tell this story about another player i worked with she was 350 she was not winning a match in challengers and we start and one year later she's 27 in the world which was unbelievable and then she starts to kind of go against me saying oh you didn't understand my game you make me play too aggressive i'm more a tactical player but because she was scared because now she felt more pressure and that was her way to deal with pressure to push me away or attack me a lot of people do that and i didn't get angry i could have really had good reasons to be angry thinking come on i mean you're telling me i don't understand your game and i make you play a game that is not yours it was 350 one year ago couldn't win a match now you're 27 you beat top 10 players i mean are you crazy i didn't say that i said listen no problem you have a match tomorrow you know what you're gonna do i'm not gonna tell you how to play tomorrow you're gonna show me your game maybe i missed something no problem show me the day after she got destroyed 6-1 5-2 and then she called me for coaching on court because you were allowed to at a time so she calls me i stand in front of her during the match 6-1 5-2 and then she tells me i know what you're going to tell me i said i don't think so because even myself i don't know what i'm going to tell you i'm not supposed to tell you anything you're supposed to play your game i'm watching and then i felt she was hoping for an advice and i said to her listen how many winners did you hit she said i don't know i said i counted one how many winners did she hit 30 so there is only one more game for her if you want her to hit four more winners continue to play like that if you start to be try to dictate and be the boss on the court we'll see and i left five two five three five four five all six five for her she ended up losing the second set seven six anyway I let her do the mistake and we never spoke about this after that she got the lesson life is the best to give lessons I didn't go ah you see I told you no nothing okay I don't even think we talked about it because the lesson was so clear and this is a quote that I love also when people don't listen let adversity teach them that was what happened so if it was a mistake from Holger to aim too high, then you would have lost early in the 250, in the 500.

35:35Maybe we would change strategy and it's fine. I really see coaching as a partnership. I'm not going against my player. Never. Never. I'm not saying that I'm always telling the player, okay, you're right all the time. No, no, no. We are building together a strategy to be at the top, to use 100 % of your potential. But you will deliberately let them lose confidence in certain situations. One match, not for one month, but one match, if it's important for them to make their own experience, I think it's great. You know, when we all went through that, your parents say, tell you, oh, you shouldn't do that.

36:13It's not good. Don't do that. You want to experience. You want to know if they're right or not. So you go and you do it and then you think, fuck, they were right. Perfect. Patrick, we covered this with so many different sports and something that comes up, I think more and more is how people are afraid to do things that puts them outside of a box. You become an army of clones where you don't want to put your head above the parapet. You want to protect your job a little bit. Making the tough decision is going to put me on the chopping block. And one of your philosophies, and I saw it when you were talking about how you'd work with Serena, was never be afraid to get fired.

36:43Your natural thing to do would be to protect yourself. Again, so why would I put myself at risk when I have a great job? Imagine I'm coaching Serena Williams. She had 13 grand slams when we started. She had been number one. I mean, 100 % of the coaches would love to be in my seat. Why would I take a risk? Makes no sense. And especially at the start when I didn't build a relation yet. But you know, she provoked me, the father provoked me and I thought, okay, if I let them step on me, I'm not going to be respected. I'm not going to be successful. I'm not going to be listened to. This is not going to happen.

37:19And if it has to stop, It has to stop. But I will not let people treat me the way I don't accept it, whatever the consequences are. They didn't want to harm me or to do bad. They just wanted to test me. They wanted to test my character, which I didn't know at that time. So I think it's very important because you have a lot of tough decisions to take, whether you're a CEO or you're a coach. Or when you have responsibilities, you have tough decisions. Sometimes you have to say something to your player that you know the player is not going to like it. But if you don't say it, you know there is no progress possible.

37:55What's the hardest decision you made with Serena? I mean, at the start, to tell her, I mean, to confront her, because I did confront her first practice in a tournament was at Wimbledon. I did confront her. Her father confronted me in front of everyone, all the tennis people in the fitness in Wimbledon also after the first match shouting at me. And I really hit him back hard, which was the right thing to do. And I did it in a, I think, very correct way. But I said to him, listen, first of all, if you don't respect me, I'm not going to respect you. So you'd better be ready for that. If you want me to respect you, you'd better respect me first.

38:36And second, you're telling me, you're shouting at me why Serena's playing so bad. But I'm coaching her for one week. You're coaching her for 30 years. Maybe I should ask you. And then he didn't know what to answer. And I remember the hitting partner of Serena who was with her for many years was behind Richard Williams when I was saying that. And he was looking at me saying, are you crazy? What are you doing? But then I had full respect from Richard. And then we had a great relationship because he respects me. I didn't like respect, but I showed him he couldn't step too far. Same with Serena. Then we had it built.

39:11And she said it to me six months later. She said, when you did this to me at practice, you get all my respect because 99 % of the people will not dare doing it. So that's why I'm saying, if you are scared to lose your job, if you are too much in your comfort zone, you will not do what you're supposed to do that can make huge changes. It's called courage. Now, I'm not saying that you should say everything to your player, because sometimes you might say things that will take confidence away from them. You have to be smart in what you say and what you don't say, when you say it and how you say it.

39:48This is coaching. I've seen a lot of coaches who say everything they think all the time to their players. This is not coaching. This is a commentator. They can listen to TV. It's the same. No, a coach will decide what to say, how to say it and when to say it. and sometimes not to say it because this will hurt the confidence of the player. And players are so different. Some players, you need to be negative because it pushes them, it makes them better. And actually it makes them more confident. How strange is that, huh? What did you not say that with the benefit of hindsight and reflection, you wish you'd said?

40:23I mean, I will refer to a recent collaboration with Naomi. It's not something I didn't say because I'm not scared to say, zero. it's more a solution I didn't find because with Naomi I think I'm like a doctor in a way Naomi we start, she starts playing really good at the start, really really good but she gets injured then it takes a lot of weeks to come back first tournament of the year she's in the final, get injured again then Australian Open, get injured again so I thought okay the most obvious thing we have to solve this issue and we solved that issue When we did solve that issue, one or two matches, she didn't compete well in a way that I didn't like because I felt she really didn't compete.

41:10So we went back through practice and I told her we need to do better at practice. I explained to her what, and we started to do it. And she started to play honestly, unbelievable. At practice, her level was incredible. Second problem solved. And then she started to compete in a way that was not efficient. and I had to solve this thing. And this one I didn't solve. And that's why we ended the relationship, by the way. I didn't realize and I missed something. I would have with time, but I didn't have enough time. And it's the effect of Serena. And I didn't realize it. And I should have. And that's why I'm angry at myself on this one because I worked with Simona Halep after Serena.

41:48And the same thing happened. She didn't compete well for two, three months, but we had a very open relationship. She was open to me. She was talking. and she said to me, you know what? It's too much pressure. What you did with Serena is so unbelievable. I feel I need to do the same in terms of being able to win as much and it's too much pressure for me. I can't. And so I realized it because she said it very clearly and I found a way to make her feel lighter and made her feel, I didn't expect her to achieve anything. I just wanted her to express herself during the matches. After that, she played semis in Wimbledon, then won a Masters 1000 straight away.

42:27And with Naomi, it was the same. Actually, she even said it publicly. She said in press conference in Rangaros, I feel bad for Patrick because he's used to winning so much and I cannot win three matches in a row. It was too heavy. And that's why when we stopped to collaborate, straight away she could perform because physically she was ready. Tennis-wise, she was so ready. And actually, I told her when we stopped, don't worry, you're going to make results very, very soon because you are 100 % ready. it's just about you expressing yourself during the matches this is going to happen suddenly i wasn't there she didn't have that expectation and she felt more free and she started to perform incredibly well final in montreal then the same is in uh in the u.s open so but i didn't make that you know she had to get rid of i mean we had to stop the relation so she could play i would have preferred to be able to find a solution is there anything though that you should have done with naomi that you should have learned from simona because that That happened twice.

43:26So what would you say to yourself with Naomi, having seen that before with Simona? What I should have done is made her feel that I was zero interested with her results, but more with her game development and her competing. That was it. And she felt that because I made a mistake, that's the truth, completely okay to say it. When she had those bad losses, that I felt she didn't really compete. I explained to her, this is not supposed to happen. You can do that. You can play bad. You can lose. It's fine. But you cannot lose this way. You need to find a way to put the ball in the court. You need to start a battle.

44:08And when I did this, she felt, oh my God, is so disappointed by me. And this put extra pressure. So the way I did it was wrong. And I think she carried that throughout the next month. So that was a mistake. You see how one moment when you say something can affect so much. Is Serena just a different mindset league altogether? When you see about the mentality and then you see, I can't take that pressure. I don't want that pressure. Is Serena just an entirely different mental league to everyone else? For sure, yes. But Serena was raised different. she was raised by a father who was going public every day saying my daughter is going to be the best in the world she's better than everyone she's going to beat everyone she's used to it she was raised like that and it's funny because at a certain moment during our collaboration she had a bit less confidence and i i kept going doing the same when i was interviewed i was saying it's all about serena i don't care who's she playing i'm not interested it's all about serena I was doing it on purpose because that's how she was raised.

45:19And that's what was giving her the confidence. And I kept doing that. And she called me and she said, why do you do that? It puts so much pressure. And I said, Serena, do you remember what your father was doing? Did it affect you or not? No. So this shouldn't affect you. Sorry. And she said, you're right. And then she performed again. When the confidence is growing and the winds are just stacking up and up and up, there is a lot of distraction that comes with that. Sponsorships, big partnerships, events, you name it, Evian deals, British Airways deals. How do you retain focus when the world wants to distract it from the success that it's getting?

46:02That's a good question. And you're right. Distraction happens. A lot of players lose their focus in those moments. That's where also passion is important. I think the best players in the world, they're the most passionate about tennis. That's one of the keys to become great at anything. If you think about the best musicians, they're obsessed with their music. They're playing music all day long. They don't care about going to the movies and having dinner with friends. I saw an interview of a journalist that was with Elon Musk and he asked him, you never go to dinners. He said, but no, I'm not going to dinner.

46:36The journalist said, I propose you one day, you want to go dinner? And Elon Musk answered, dinner? what's what is this i don't go to dinners he's working 20 hours a day out of 24 he's sleeping four hours a day because he's obsessed with what he's doing with what he's creating the same with tennis players i spoke to guys who were 50 in the world and i said are you watching tennis out of you know in the evening when you come back home many times i had the answer oh no i'm playing tennis all day long i'm not gonna go back home and play tennis you crazy but what do you think Serena is doing when she's coming back home after a day.

47:12She's watching tennis. I get you, but what if they're young and impressionable when they're 18, 19, 20, and sometimes the bright lights and the busyness of other people, advisors can distract them? Yeah, but this is when it's so important to have the trust of your player and to have an impact on him. When you're a good coach, what you think is very important to your player, that you admire your player is very important to your player if he feels you don't admire him anymore he will be it will hurt him if he feels oh he doesn't agree with me doing that it will hurt him i'm not saying we need to control everything but if we have this power we can use it when it's important when your player that is 19 years old start to be obsessed with you know going out and being famous and the deals and the money and the business you as a coach you have to tell him listen, this is fragile.

48:09This is nothing. Because if tomorrow you're not winning again, everything will disappear like this as fast as it came. So let's stay focused on the game. I don't care about this shit. This shit will always be there, always, if you perform. So let's stay focused on tennis. And then if you have an impact on your player, the way I just explained, he will follow. I don't think he should follow all the time. But when it's important, that's why I always say to coaches, choose your battles. Don't fight every battle with your player. Okay, maybe he's not great in nutrition, but he's doing everything great.

48:43Maybe he needs something that he's not great at. Maybe for him, it's important also for his mind to feel better. Don't fight every battle, fight the big ones that will make the big results. Did you change your approach when you were coaching male and female players? Completely. It's not the same job. First of all, the approach with everyone is different. You cannot treat two men the same way or two women the same way. No, everybody's different. You need to talk completely differently to everyone. Everything is different. But there are some things in common with exceptions. I would say that Serena is an exception in the women's game, the way you should approach her.

49:20But most of the women, there is one way to approach them coaching wise that is better than another one. Same with guys. It's exactly the same. But there are also guys who are more like women in the approach. If I can summarize it that way, it's not very politically correct, but I'm not politically correct. So it's fine. I would say that women want their coach in front of them, where men would like to have their coach behind them. Why? Because most of the women feel stronger when the coach is taking decisions and in a way taking responsibilities. I'm saying that by experience, but I'm saying that also because a lot of women top players have told me, I'm basically quoting them.

50:08They feel they can express themselves fully. Men, they have this masculine ego that they want everyone behind. I'm the boss. And you have to make them feel that they take every decision because otherwise they don't feel strong. And then they won't be able to perform on the court Because at the end, that's the only goal, how to perform on the court. I would say basically that way. It's funny, it reminds me of Carlos Alcárez when he was maybe 18. I saw him in Madrid. That was crazy. He was already good, but I mean, not even close to what he is now. He was maybe, I say, 50 in the world or 30 in the world, whatever.

50:46And there is an event with the Meyer of Madrid outside of the courts. In the street, they create a court in the street. There was Andy Murray there. Simona Halep I was with her at that time and I will remember all my life Carlos coming in and I remember because I told Simona this guy is going to be a joke and I'm not even talking about tennis I mean imagine the guy in Spanish is the mayor of Madrid like he's a big big person right he's a kid he's 18 he went to say hi to the mayor of Madrid he took him on the shoulder like this and he was talking to him like this very nicely but he looked like he was the Meyer and the other guy was an 18 years old boy he was so confident the way he approached him talked to him and but he reminded me of uh of Novak when he was 18 19 same exactly the same he takes the space and you look at the final of the US Open oh I mean the guy takes the space right wow so you see something like that is there part of you where you're a coach you want to coach the best players you then suddenly look and go can I get the opportunity of course I mean imagine you ask a soccer coach would you like to coach Real Madrid or a club in Division 2 in France yeah when you want you want to win big trophies and you're not winning big trophies with players who can't you can improve everyone you can help players use their full potential but not everyone can be Serena there is only one Serena right so yes when you have the chance because the player but you have to show that you're good enough for those guys to call you when they're looking for someone.

52:25When Serena was looking for someone, she called me. So she didn't call anyone else, by the way. She called only me. But when you have this chance, of course, you want to work with the guys that you think can make history, can be different, can win the biggest tournaments. And again, not everyone can. Can we talk about tennis just quickly more broadly? Because you've done some really cool stuff. I'll talk about Tennis Showdown and looking at new ways to bring the sport to younger people. As we've said a few times, any sport where the athletes are freelancers always leave themselves quite open to disruption.

52:55We've seen it in golf, for example. With what you've done and creating a new different tournament style, where do you see this kind of next evolution of tennis? So UTS exists now since 2020, depending on the years, because when you have the Olympics, it's more difficult. But we do between four and six events per year for the moment. It's extremely successful. We are sold out now in two, three days. We fill up huge stadiums in France. The last one, we filled up a 15 ,000 seats stadium, which is the center court of Rangaros for two days in a row. In an antique stadium, by the way, most of the best players in the world actually want to compete at UTS.

53:35They ask for it. We are broadcasted all over the world. And I think it's extremely different. And I think we're able to bring younger people to watch tennis, to follow tennis more, which is the problem of tennis at the moment and people misunderstand that a lot but first of all it's not me saying it it's all the studies and there are several studies that have been made on tennis fans and people misunderstand a tennis fan is someone who's following tennis all year long doesn't mean that he goes to every tournament but he's following watching on tv knows who's number one who's number two follows tennis right a real fan so the average age of the tennis fan is 61 years old all the studies show it 61 and every year it's one year older what does it say it says that there are no new fans coming in we tennis is basically built on the fan base of the 70s and the 80s and it's the same fan base since the 70s and the 80s that is just aging so what where does it end sorry but in the cemetery because people are dying do you not think this is actually just systematic of a change of culture.

54:40We are moving away from a cult of sport to a cult of personality. People generally care less about the sport. They love Alcaraz. They care less about Miami. They love Messi. And actually, the loyalty to the sport isn't there. You're not going to get them loving Rome ATP 1000. But when Alcaraz goes to Wimbledon, I want to watch it. And so does everyone else. Do you think actually it's just a shift in society, not a loss of tennis fan? You are right, but I don't think that explains the fact that the average age of the fan is so old and getting older every year because they could follow tennis because they love Alcaraz.

55:21Their fans have Alcaraz, but they don't follow tennis unless they are old. I mean, it's not a judgment. I mean, it's my generation actually, and I'm a tennis fan from the 70s. So I know what I'm talking about. I'm part of them. I'm just saying if you want to recruit new and younger fans, you need to propose them something they can buy. They cannot buy tennis. They cannot buy a show that lasts three hours where they have to stay seated and watch for three hours. This is not happening. They cannot watch a show that is so slow, where the ball is in play between 5 % and 15 % of the time of a match.

55:56This is crazy. The downtime in tennis is between 85 % and 95 % of the time this who's watching that in today's world no one so tennis as you know the format of tennis is you know it started the 19th century end of 19th century it has never been revisited never imagine the world in 1950 and the world now i mean it's normal and what you say is true but if that would explain the aging of the fan base that would be true for all the sports but that's not true The fan base of UFC is way younger. The fan base even of NBA is way younger. So, and same, you have the cult of the personalities, the LeBron James, and yeah, they follow the stars.

56:41But that's why I created UTS with the goal to propose a version of tennis that they can watch, like, and consume. Why? 45 minutes match compared to three hours. No downtime. There is no downtime. First of all, much less time between the points. so the ball is in play way more I got rid of the first serve so you'd have no more aces and serve winners and missing returns I mean much much less so there were many more rallies the time of play is longer less time between the points it's a sprint and whenever there could be some downtime there is something happening you have two minutes between quarters because it's three to four quarters of eight minutes between every quarter there is two minutes but during the two minutes we interview the players during the match about their performance what they're going to do.

57:28So there is always something happening that makes the show like boom, like a bomb. There are many more spectacular points because we made the net shorter on the side so they can go around the net. I mean, we solved basically all the problems of tennis to propose a format that the younger generation will consume and is consuming, by the way. What was it like when you proposed something like this to try and find a slot in the calendar? Well, I went to the ATP to tell them they were not against it. They said, okay, we think it's a good idea. Just do your thing. We're not going to go against. But we cannot have UTS tournaments during the Masters 1000, Masters 500, simply because the players are not allowed to play anything else.

58:09So they would be in trouble. But we found spots in the calendar. That's how we do it now. But, you know, we're young. Yeah, we're just five years old. It's very young. And it's growing extremely fast. So we're going to evolve. I have no doubt about it. You cannot stop the success. That's the thing. I thought we have to be successful and then we'll be in a position to discuss for the interest of the whole industry. Because if we are making the fan base bigger and bringing young people, also much younger fan base, the whole tennis industry is benefiting from it. You said about interviewing players midway through the match.

58:47Are tennis players public property? When people want interviews post-match, during match, the public wants to get to know you, but players also have privacy, want to retain a mindset, want to retain focus. Is that part and parcel of the game and you have to suck it up and do it? Or should we be more respectful of the retention of a player's mindset? Sports is a show. You can turn it the way you want. It's a show. Players have responsibilities. For example, I worked for TV for so many years, 10 years. I worked with ESPN. I worked with UR Sports. I worked with Fox Asia. ESPN is doing interview in the corridor just before entering the center court.

59:31They're interviewing the players one second before they enter for huge matches. Do you think they want to talk? Zero. But they do because they have to. So they do it. And for the record, I told ESPN stop doing this. It's zero because they're so stressed. They don't want to talk. So they give you nothing. It's no point. do an interview before and show it right before the match that would be more interesting so you'd have insight anyway my point is this one when i said i'm gonna have interview during the match the players will have only one serve and a lot of other things everyone in the tennis industry said to me the players will never accept you will never be able to do that everybody tried i said okay they did it all of them did it without any problem do they like it when they're winning they're fine when they just won the quarter they're happy to do it most of the time when they lost it they're pissed but it's good because you have interesting things because when the players are pissed their reactions are interesting and you get to know them really because you know what we speak now it's nice but if i don't see you when you're angry and if i don't see you when you're in trouble and if i don't see you when you're successful i don't know you this is where you know really the people when they're super successful how they behave when they're in trouble and when they're angry and then you have a good picture of the people so that's interesting for the crowd i didn't get angry patrick so it's fine you're a genius i'm always calm and very composed it's okay yeah he never deals with any shit for me are we gonna see disruption of the grand slams no and i i wouldn't like it i think it's history i think you don't touch history like they killed the davis cup i think it was the biggest mistake possible and i said it actually to PK when he did.

1:01:12I said, this is the biggest mistake. He said, yeah, but you did UTS. I said, yes, but I created something out of nothing. I didn't touch anything. I mean, killing Davis Cup is basically, for people, it was so emotional for the players. It's like you're taking the grandmother of someone and you're shaking the grandmother. I mean, leave my grandmother alone. She's my grandmother. It's my history. It's the same. So I wouldn't touch the Grand Slams. I think, yes it's too long yes that everything is true but it's history and because it's history and because all the best players in the world compete there i mean the viewership is a joke it's billions of people who watch it it's crazy successful so i don't see any reason to touch it when things are working so well man why would you touch it plus it's history so no at least i would not touch probably should have touched in this early i just want to finish with it and it's the point around something we talked with Dominic again about with his academy.

1:02:06And the concern that maybe tennis just becomes more and more elitist as the cost of reaching the top of the game increases tens of thousands of pounds per year if you're going to be really at that height. Is that true? And is that a concern? Making this sport really accessible for everyone to have that opportunity to be a top player? That's not true. It's always been this way. I started a foundation in 2014 to help young players that I thought had big potential but were really lacking financial. But it comes to financial, all the right people to help them. Yeah, and I took Coco, 10 years old, Stefano Tsitsipas, Holger Rune, Alexei Poprin, none to name others.

1:02:47And I mean, I've helped them for many years, but that's a true problem. When you go to the tournament under 14, under 12 international tournaments, it's very difficult. it's it's as you said you are your own boss in tennis when you're in football soccer you know you belong to a club the club invests on you but then the club can sell you and make money so it's business at tennis who's going to invest on you so you're it's it's really a real problem that needs to be uh to be solved so i solve it very small you know because i take 15 players per year so it's not a lot but it's all i can do but yeah we should we should address this problem yeah Patrick, Charlie's just had his first child, a little girl.

1:03:29How much is it going to cost me to make her a winner? Zero to 18. Are we looking at a million bucks, two million bucks,$500 ,000? No. I would say not so much until she's, if she's good, she's very good. If 10 or 11 years old, then it will cost 100 ,000 average per year for 10 years. Yeah, a million. But if she's unbelievable at 10, she will have endorsements. They have endorsements at 10? Maybe not 10, but yeah, 11. If she's really outstanding, yes. Patrick, is this good for kids? When you are 12 and you are going to this level of endorsements? So it's not good, no, but I think it's better than not to have money to be able to become pro.

1:04:26So in a way, I'm happy for them. They get some endorsement. Also federations, especially the four Grand Slam federations. So yours is one of British, the LTA is one of those federations who's incredibly rich, thanks to Wimbledon. Same with French Federation, thanks to Roland Garros, American Federation, Australian Federation. So they have a lot of money to help the players from their country. So good for you. If she's good, she's going to have money from the Federation. So, of course, for those countries, it's easier. the only negative thing i don't know about lta but in france i can tell you is that federation will tell you okay we finance but you need to practice with us yeah but i have my coach i trust him i have great results with him no leave everything come with us we finance if you stay there see you which is a scandal for me that doesn't fund the more talk to academy does it no but i mean there is another point that is important when a player is successful with this team, I mean, you don't change a winning team.

1:05:27That's completely stupid. So I don't think it's, I mean, actually look at the results of French tennis on the women's side. We don't, I mean, the first player, uh, she's the first French player is maybe 80 WTA with a federation, which is one of the richest in the world. So that's, I mean, Italian federation with probably 10 % of the money of the French federation does 10 times better. So that's a particularly of French people and federations to think, okay, we have shitty results, but we know better than everyone. Okay, so it doesn't make sense. Yeah, but we know. Okay, continue to know and have zero results then.

1:06:03Right, we're going to do a quick fire round, Patrick. So we say a short statement, you give us your immediate thoughts. Who would you most like to have coached but never did? Patrick Rafter. I loved everything about him. I loved his game. The servant volley, super physical. I loved how he was playing like crazy. I loved the way he was handling himself in the matches, his attitude. And he did stuff that are very rare. One day he was in Marseille. He had a big guarantee to play because he was top three in the world. And he lost in the first round. And he sent the guarantee back. And he wrote a letter, said, I didn't play my level.

1:06:46I don't deserve the money. And he sent it back. Like, I don't think anyone ever did this in the history of tennis. And I thought the guy is really special. I would love to see you train Kyrgios. I'm like, with his confidence, I'd love to know what you do. I really like him. I think he's a very smart guy. And also I was on his podcast. And I told him things that people never told him, which really resonated, I think resonated in him. That's what he said. I told him that like a lot of very talented guys, they have a conflict, which is to risk their talent. So to work like animals, fight like animals during matches, they take the risk to not succeed.

1:07:32And maybe people will think they were not that talented. And as talent defines them, and because they hear it all the time, they feel they are talent, they embody talent. they are scared to lose this label of being talented. And because of that, they don't work that hard because they can always say, yeah, but I could have been better, but I didn't work hard. So they keep the talent intact. And also during matches, when they play someone who's more like a fighter, but not that talented, and they start to lose, they give up most of the time because if they fight and they lose against a guy who's not talented, then maybe they're not that talented and they don't want to risk it.

1:08:11it's something very subtle, very psychological. They're not aware fully of it, but that's what they do. And I said, that's exactly what you've been doing in your career. What have you had to work the hardest on since you've been a top coach for everything that you deliver for your clients? Where's the biggest kind of growth been for you? I think it's more difficult for me now to first start with a white page and I'm really fighting to do it every time. It's always difficult to be patient, but I'm fighting to be patient also. I mean, being patient, always making sure there are results, of course.

1:08:44But, you know, for something to really happen the way I want it to happen, because I know the player can, it might take a bit of time and I have to be patient. As I said, I need a strategy so that there is not the shadow of Serena hunting around and being too heavy for those players. I think that's the three things that are big challenges for me. Is there anywhere in the game where you'd love to see some investment, some external investment come in to improve what we currently have? I think the level is unreal. As I said, the final of Ron Garos, probably one of the best matches I've ever seen in my life in terms of everything, level of play, the whole suspense and everything was unbelievable.

1:09:26In a way, the final of Wimbledon, I don't think that Carlos delivered. Yeah, Sinner played great, but Carlos didn't deliver. And the final of the US Open, I think Carlos played great, but Yannick didn't deliver. But this final of Rangaros, the level was unreal. I think at the moment, the thing that, and that's why it's difficult for you, for all other players to think they can win because they have two guys who have no weakness. You can play fast. You can play to the side. You can play body. You can play high. You can play low. You can serve and volley. You can do whatever you want. There is zero opening.

1:09:58You just have to overplay them. And when you see the level they play, it looks impossible. So Kalos can have a strategy to beat Yannick. or Yannick has started to beat Carlos because they are at the same level, but the other ones are not at the same level. So how do they find solutions when there is no weakness? It's very, very difficult. I think if you see how fast they play with the number of first errors they make, and they keep progressing, if you look at the serve of Alcaraz during this US Open, I mean, it's much better than a few months ago. And it's crazy to think he lost this match in Wimbledon in the final against Yannick, and then he said, okay, I know what I need to work on and he did and they worked on the serve, they worked on the attitude that he was having when he was in trouble.

1:10:47A few weeks later, he delivers. His serving stats at this US Open are unbelievable. You know, when you reach that level and you keep progressing, stop for the other guys. He's saying Djokovic wins number 25. He almost seems stuck in like tennis purgatory at the moment where he's so much better than everyone else still but these two ahead of him Let's put it that way. He's the best of all times, without any doubt. But even the way he expresses it makes me feel he doesn't believe he can. When you hear the press conference after his loss against Alcaraz at the US Open, he basically says, I don't know how I can do that.

1:11:24So if himself doesn't believe, it's not going to happen. If you were coaching him today, what would you say to him? I don't know what I would say to him. And that's always the question I'm asked. And actually, Nick Kyrgios asked me that question. If you coach me tomorrow, what advice would you give me? I said, listen, I'm not here to give advice. I'm here to embark on a journey with a player. We're in the same boat. And we're going to figure it out. But I will make sure that Novak would really believe he can beat them because I think he can. I think it's a question of motivation because in his career, when it was a question of life or death for him, he always was successful.

1:12:02And I think the example of the final of the Olympic games is a great example. He was completely dominated by Carlos and Yannick and not winning anything. And then suddenly Olympics, and this is a title he wants more than anything. And then he delivers the match to beat Carlos in the final. So the motivation, and I understand when you fought all your life to become the greatest, all your life and you finally make it, what's behind? How can you be as motivated as before? Almost impossible. So I would really think of how to bring the fire back. That's what I would think. I don't know if I would find a solution, but that's what I would really look for because I think that's the only key.

1:12:45Final one from me. I got asked this brilliant question the other day that I've been thinking about pretty much nonstop. And it's, what would you do if you weren't so scared? What would your answer be? I mean, if people weren't scared, they would have a completely different life than the life they have. Simple. I try to be aware when I'm scared because we're all scared. And even the best players in the world, 35 years old, they're still scared to play a match the way they were scared when they were 18. It's the same. It's not about being scared. It's about being brave. but what I would do for you is not just giving you an answer because it's rare that one answer would make people take decisions that are scary for them it's more that I would try to understand what you're scared of and eliminate those not by talking necessarily but by doing things with you that make you think that you will make it I'll tell you one last thing when I was 26 six so i was ready for life but i was scared of plane i couldn't take the plane even one hour i remember i went on holidays to marrakesh going to morocco and i remember i couldn't sleep for one week before taking the plane there and my holidays it was one week so i basically had the worst holidays because i was scared all day by thinking about i had to come back to take the plane again but i thought you know my life is going to be horrible you know i want to travel the world.

1:14:14I want to do a job as a coach. I need to travel. I mean, this is not possible. So you know what I did? I took a ticket alone for Melbourne back and forth. And at that time, it was probably 26 or 28 hours. And I did. And after, I can tell you, after 56 hours of plane, you don't think about the plane anymore. You're dying. It's what I'm saying. Out of your comfort zone go and when you do stuff like that you're building your confidence how strong do you feel when you're facing your fears and you you do something unbelievable so you have always two options face your fears or run away it's up to you what now you've got the book you've got the academy which continually runs i'd imagine now seamlessly with and without you you have naomi now no longer cut your coaching so i guess you can take on another player what what does the next stage look like for you first the academy is doing really well we're number one in europe the biggest academy in europe in terms of everything by the way but we started to open everywhere in the world now we have 14 different tennis centers or academies throughout the world in every continent we have in china malaysia italy the u.s we have several we have one big one in Florida, we have in Dubai.

1:15:31So we're everywhere and we're really developing fast. We're opening from next year, probably 10 per year for the next five years. So that's great. That's quite amazing. For me personally, I mean, of course, I love to coach. That's my passion, but I don't want to rush and I want to, you know, if I do it in the future, I'll do it with someone that I really believe we can win one or several Grand Slams. So I'm not in a rush. There are not so many players that are in that, who have this potential. So UTS is for me has a huge potential, really, really huge. So I think the business is extremely exciting and it's a business in something that is positive to everyone.

1:16:15That is the most wonderful conclusion that I did not expect. Patrick, you've been incredible. Thank you so much for being fantastic. Thank you so much to Patrick for joining us today. that was more than a show about tennis. There are learnings in there that we can all apply to our everyday lives. I love nothing more than looking into how an approach to elite sport can impact us in different ways, as another one of my favourite books, Legacy by James Kerr, outlines through identifying what makes the All Blacks rugby team a cut above. Highly recommend it if you haven't read that too. What Patrick has clearly done so incredibly well is to make these elite athletes believe that they are elite, capable of the greatest achievements.

1:16:55His successes speak for themselves and I can't wait to see what he has planned next alongside the million and one other things he's delivering on. As always, a huge thank you for tuning in and we look forward to seeing you next week. Now, if you want to see more from today's show, you can do so by going to YouTube and typing in Business of Sport. But before we leave you, some words from our valued partners. Now, what if I told you that the same private equity deals that built sporting empires like Liverpool FC and the Golden State Warriors were now accessible to everyday investors. It's time for you to meet Stride, the regulated digital platform that's democratising sports private equity.

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