Ryan Bertrand, Fmr Chelsea, Southampton & England: ‘It Didn’t Feel Like the Chelsea I was Brought Up In; The Foundations of Champions League Success' (Ep78)

0:00That's kind of a grey area. It'd be great if there was a lot more transparency in terms of players sitting down with other players and saying, Hey, I'm Gary Neville. I've got these hotels and stuff. This is what I chose to do on my journey. This worked for me. This didn't work for me. I would suggest this. I would suggest that. And now I've got an income of X that's provided me this much cash flow from them investments. That would be a great conversation to have. I think exactly what it turned into is what Chelsea had lost. Because we were in a precarious moment in the league where things were inconsistent.

0:29I think it was like 6th or something, which is ridiculous. We had a meeting one time and I think AVB went, what's changed? What's different? And my thoughts was, and my feeling of the whole dressing room and the club at that time was, it just didn't feel like the Chelsea that I was brought up in, where we didn't think about losing. You would look around and you're so confident that everyone is the best in their position. And you get so much power from that and the ethos was winning and winning and winning. I just felt like we'd lost that. We're going into games thinking about, oh, hopefully we can win.

1:01Hello and welcome to The Business of Sport, the show that takes you behind the scenes with the industry's leading owners, operators and athletes. This week we're delighted to welcome Ryan Bertrand to the show, the only man to make his Champions League debut in the final and of course win it in historic style with Chelsea in 2012. The regulars of you will know a conversation like this is exciting for both Harry and I as big Chelsea fans and the shirts we wore throughout gave the game away anyway. You can head to YouTube to check out the visuals. but it's really important to recognise that Ryan isn't just the player who won that cup or played over 260 Premier League games and was capped 19 times by England.

1:37This is a former athlete with a story to tell that incorporates exploration away from football, interests that the fans, media and even those within the game don't associate with players. You can do business, learn business, all while playing at the highest level. You can also leverage the power of your network and your unique experiences to add something few others can do in businesses outside of the game. This is something we encourage athletes, the ones who are interested off their own back and the ones who may not have understood the possibilities, to do in a world where opportunity can come from multiple sources.

2:07Ryan has built businesses, he's managed people and carved out a path that now positions him to succeed at scale. What can you learn from him? It's the balance of the stories we of course are desperate to hear, which include how a Sprite nearly cost him his England career and the time that Chelsea didn't realise he was actually on their books, with his transition from player to multifaceted operator. This is one of the good ones. We're delighted to welcome Ryan to the business of sport. But first, some words from our valued partners. This is digital fitness coaching at its peak. I'm so excited for us to partner with Runner, a relationship that's going to get us all up and out there, me included, pacing the streets, woodlands, parks, beachfronts, but backed up by elite level insight and accessibility.

2:47This is the kind of coaching that used to be reserved for the pros. Now, all you need is a pair of shoes and a goal. I'm terrible at sticking to anything without a plan. runner rethinks how people train whether you're gearing up for your first 5k chasing a marathon personal best or just trying to stay consistent runner is world-class coaching personalized plans and real-time adjustments that actually make sense for your life it's about building better habits through structured training that works on top of that it's strength training conditioning mentality support all geared towards keeping you motivated and making you accountable a scary word but let's be honest integral to actually achieving over the coming weeks we'll start announcing some of the awesome things we'll be doing with runner to engage with you it's about more than downloading an app this is fitness driven experience and community we bring you a global network of runners who push celebrate and support each other whether you're an existing user or want to check it out for the first time you can use our code boss runner that's b-o-s-r-u-n-n-a or click the link in the bio take a look be challenged have fun and of course stay tuned Ryan thank you so much for joining us it's great to have you in the studio pleasure to be here I've been a big fan for a while now of the both of you's and yeah a pleasure to be here as are we obviously anyone not watching the video come and check out the shirts that we're wearing Harry's actually doing his closest attempt if you can actually see the shorts of going full John Terry just without the socks and the shin pads we all know you of course through the professional playing career that you've had Tell us a little bit about how you've made that transition from football into the business world.

4:25I was inspired by business by my mum when I was young. I think she used to work in Morgan Stanley in Canary Wharf. And I was just inspired by, you know, these buildings going there and just thinking what is inside these amazing buildings. And it kind of sparked my intrigue into the business world and seeing her work ethic. And I kind of took that with me throughout my career. So whether we'd travel on the bus or anything, I'd like to relearn and read a lot and try and anticipate what I'd love to do post-career. And that led me in good stead for the transition. Was that unusual? Yeah, it's hard to be like, oh yeah, I'm this maverick person.

5:01I always think ahead and they all don't. And no, it's nothing like that. But I think the truth is, yeah, that is quite unusual. Can I ask, do you remember your first professional contract? Yeah, I do. How much was that for? Shambles. Go on. No, it was great at the time. well I was a Gillingham before right so I was just content there I was gonna sign a scholarship there I think it was 35 pound a week 45 pound a week and I was thinking that's right Peugeot 106 I'll be good we'll get this and content then I went to Chelsea and the first contract ended up being 500 pound a week which is great how old are you that's at 17.

5:34Fast forward now I feel like one of them old pros where the moan about the new pros with the money but it's happening in such a short time span the inflation now is crazy in terms of first pro contracts and stuff if you were getting that contract now what would it be i was acquired right from gillianon to to chelsea so generally if you're doing that you're in one of the top tiers within the group if you look at a top professional contract for a 17 year old at an elite club in england probably start from 7 to 15k a week seriously yeah so from 500 yeah you got fucked yeah i would have been done would have been done so going back to give context to the 500 500 was kind of like the band of the top the top ones there were some portuguese guys if you got brought in from abroad they were probably like 850 to 1k but generally i think that the english boys that were at the top end of the pay scale were about 500 do you remember one day where you were like wow i'm making a lot of money i think more so when i was going on loans so for example i think me and jack cork become some of the first players to go on loan to kind of start to actually farm these talents out and we had incentives where it was like 10 games was 10k 15 games 15k 20 games was 20k all the way up to like 50 games and 50k so you're like putting additional games in the calendar aren't you but basically we actually got great traction we went on loan and we just killed them them bonuses and they quickly got removed after that yeah that was the club chelsea put those bonuses in yeah why did you choose chelsea do you look at a club at a time where there wasn't necessarily a well-trodden pathway for young players to get into that first team to be honest i was i used to just love playing football so i'll be out with my friends on a friday night wake up play for gillenham on a saturday go out with my friends again very very normal far from good or bad the over pressures that the young players tend to come with now i just don't for fun i didn't really care i was i was at gillenham was going to play for them get a contract hopefully i'll get a scholarship for them and then i went to chelsea and then i thought okay i might have to start to apply myself a bit here now.

7:35But Chelsea approached Gillingham. Yeah, so they approached Gillingham. That was nice enough for me. I was amazed by the project and I just joined. It wasn't a case of, okay, well, if they want me, who else wants me? I don't really like to put myself in people's places. Amazed by the project? Who was doing the negotiating with you? Did someone come and talk to you from the club? Map out how they saw your involvement, even at that age? Yeah, I think it was through Neil Bath. He was kind of spearheading it a lot and they brought me in said they saw me as a left back i was playing left wing sent a midfielder up front in and around for gillenum and it's playing left back and you're playing up front and then they're like yeah we want we want to we want to play you at left back yeah yeah but when you understood the tactics and stuff it was fine because you can attack so so when you start making more money at chelsea is there any infrastructure around you at that point like hey you should do this with your money is there any education around it no i would say no i think that's what i'm very passionate about in my post career is helping people and helping people through how can i speed up their choices in life and make half the mistakes that i made in terms of that financial support there's there's not much really traditional you go to a bank but there's no real education on credit scores like deep deep education or what is a mortgage how is that structured how do you invest in a business how do you start a business what is the difference between venture private equity what is a hedge fund there's nothing and yet you're on 15k a week do you think the players want it because i think there's an amazing opportunity for someone to come in once a month that i mean pictures i think all footballers at premier league clubs should put a week of salary a year into a venture fund and then once a month we come and tell you these are all the cool businesses you invested in and teach a little bit about what makes a great business 100 % But would the players want it?

9:22I think so. I think the information is a lot more common now. I think it's being quite more thematic of everyone's learning and seeing what people are doing, which is great. Once you can grab a player at the ages of like 16 to 18, when you've really gotten them in that incubation zone, I think a lot more can be done in that moment in terms of learning the financial side of the game. 100 % that would be a very viable thing to do. But let's be honest, right? If you had said to most people, this is a side that you need to get to understand a little bit better, would you want to do it? Most wouldn't really probably have a very good answer for you.

9:55They're just thinking about some other things that average 16 to 18-year-olds are doing. But I think if you say, hey, look at Uber, look at Deliveroo, look at Candy Crush, we're going to take an hour a month out to tell you about cool shit that you invest in and love and play with on tech. I think it's much more fun than, hey, we're going to talk about your pension. Oh, no, wait, but no one's doing that either. Yeah, nobody's doing the full scale. It's like the boring stuff and the kind of cool, the cool, sexiest stuff. But unfortunately, they have no education. So when they get flashed a proposed amazing project that's going to make them a million pound tomorrow, they go for it.

10:28And then they fail because the guy isn't serious. But that's the problem around the representation. Yes, indeed. And we talk about it quite a lot. It's the misalignment of incentivization when it comes down to representation. A lot of the representation of footballers are incentivized on short term deals, generally commercial. And that's how money is generated for both player and agent. This is a very different proposition. It's a long term cycle. it's harder to find an incentive structure that fits an agent yeah it needs to be penetrate them whether it's through the premier league the pfa or something they should be more initiatives aligned with them aside from football clubs when you're in a changing room what is player attitudes to agents is it like a skepticism of like i hope they're not ripping me off is it like they're my bros and they make me money what's that attitude yeah i think from the player side it's an alignment and they they generally appreciate the agents there's a lot more value that goes into guiding a young athlete than what is probably seen by the parents, so to speak.

11:19I fully understand how parents want to manage their son's careers, but there's so many other intangible things that are going to come your way, whether you like it or not, that perhaps it's better for someone else to have a conversation about with your son or give them some guidance and some things that they just won't listen to you about. Yeah, there's a lot more value and leverage you can have by having an agent. When you broke through into that Chelsea team, you also had people in the dressing room. that are revered for their leadership and successes. You know, if you're having Terry, Lampard, Cech, Jogba, Ashley Coles, etc.

11:50Are you learning anything from them around how to manage your life away from the pitch? I think you're absorbing how to be on and off the pitch, not necessarily how to invest or monetize your incomes for the better. That's kind of a grey area. And it'd be great if there was like a lot more transparency in terms of players sitting down with other players and saying, hey, I'm Gary Neville. I've got these hotels and stuff. This is what I chose to do on my journey at this stage and this stage. This worked for me. This didn't work for me. I would suggest this. I would suggest that. And now I've got an income of X that's provided me this much cash flow from them investments.

12:31That would be a great conversation to have. Who was a culture carrier who doesn't maybe have the spotlight on them? It's hard because they all carried it in a certain way. But one that resonated kind of with me is probably Joe Cole and Ashley Cole. Ash probably a bit more because he's a bit more prominent. But yeah, them two guys are really, really good guys. And that's in popularity. It's in respect. It's professionalism. Yeah, they were proper guys. It's interesting because that's why the squad's so important. I spoke to a few of the guys and he was saying it was Bettinelli and Tosin this season.

13:04Yes. And he was just like those two. And Bettinelli has never played a game and won't now because he's gone City. he never played a professional game for Chelsea he was the third choice keeper yeah yeah the same thing was like Ross Turnbull he was like a guy everyone was just he was cool everyone loved him yeah what a gig that third choice keeper was great Scott Carson's been at City for four years is it not a bad gig or is it just deeply shit I know that sounds bad you're getting paid 25 grand a week get to the stage where if you get it in the twilight years of your career it must be a great gig it can't really be if you like if you're a Mark Schwartzer it's a great gig yeah it's a great gig yeah you're playing with great players beautiful facilities great managers especially if you can be local especially if you can hook Chelsea or Fulham or something if you're used to live in random areas but that was I mean all jokes that was Scott Carson at Man City the guys won three four Premier Leagues Champions League two FA Cups I think he played one professional game for City genius and he's at the back end of his career so he's just you know he's there in case he's needed has to be the best gig yeah it has to be so when you started making bigger money at Chelsea did you start investing that and were you the only one to do that how did you approach that i kind of chose to invest just traditional stuff through the bank optimize my money and preserve it and then i kind of backed myself and then that's where i would invest in my own companies for example our fintech business at the start that we had rolling all the way into other endeavors that set me up for the future i would rather invest in my own companies and learn that way give some context on fintech business you're setting up a company while you're still playing and it's in an area very very different yeah completely different yeah it's kind of all around us like going back to the morgan stanley thing once i found out what was in them businesses in them buildings kind of the financial hubs trading was a step that was quite popular amongst my friendship group it was actually the start of the get rich quick schemes that you see everywhere over the instagram right now you see people selling the golden blueprint to finances but if they had the golden blueprint why would they give it away you know it's funny the guy outside the jack yeah i'm a trader and i work one hour a month and make a million dollars take my things for 20 pounds you've got a gold you're going to keep the gold that's for everyone else yeah but we decided instead of to learn trading we decided we saw you know 90 or plus retail traders lose so we decided to come to playing field we actually took a guy from goldman who was well versed in machine learning and built an algorithm that people could trade very very easy it's like a version one machine learning algorithms so you could say trade this at this time if this happens and that happens then I want this trade to happen it was a very good model and we learned so much so much in terms of structuring the company raising the funds building a pitch deck my business partner in the agency today Louis traveled to China he's going around there traveling with the guys and we just learned so much we end up exiting to a Malaysian firm because it was very restrictive we needed a lot of capital and just wasn't our lane our market and the returns wasn't great but it's more what we learned in the process and i think what we learned was if we was going to be involved in a business that we didn't quite know front to back we'd rather be an investor you can't lead that business you have to have respect for the founders that because it's really two feet in or two feet two arms into a business you can't just have a business and be like yeah it's going to do that you need to know it inside out live and breathe it and put your whole life into it you were still playing when you had this as well right yeah i was still playing yeah that's southampton no that was chelsea days that was still chelsea yeah so you were quite young yeah yeah we was 24 so it was towards the end so i was chelsea and then aston villa and then and you weren't worried about losing focus no not at all i just loved it i just loved it do my training do my extras and then after training onwards i'll be on a train coming to london be at finance magnates it's probably a clip somewhere you can find talking about what we're trying to achieve the main thing that i would love and that comes back down to educating people about investing and different types of investments is because our next door neighbors believe it or not with a was revolute and i would love to put 50k with them if i didn't know more about investing then they started to just completely take the whole floor and a 50k investment in them back then would have been us returns would have been a great outcome this spare time in football has come up a few times with the players because it's the gaming time that others have referred to it as you train for actually a relatively short period of time and how long your day can be productive for yeah and those three four five hours after 2 p.m can be utilized in many different ways were you always keen to to kind of do something productive in that because that's the thing that i think if we're looking at bite-sized chunks of making this more accessible to players it's saying from three until five use that time to do something that is building a career for yourself away from the game or finding an interest in something other than sport yeah i think that can be structured very well i think you could actually give them a window or provide them with parameters to explore in them times until they find something that they feel actually this is this could have legs for me to be honest i think it should be provided by the club though yeah there should be a window where they bring in experts yeah that's my point which is like you know you can choose what you choose to do p venture credit real estate 6 to 8 p.m yeah this people are in sit down learn network totally it would bring that element of discipline for sure because we've got structure and stuff so that probably does bear some benefits for me it was um i actually loved that flexibility because what it done for me was nothing more so in a modern day game you need that flexibility because you want to get to the top but the the road to the top isn't as smooth straightforward so if you need to go to bournemouth for six months then to oldham for a year then to Norwich for two years and then back to Chelsea for six months then to Reading I loved it I loved it you loved the Lone Moves yeah I loved it yeah why I felt like I was a real professional but when you're developing at Chelsea for me it was I don't want to just be incubated at Chelsea and then it doesn't work one day and then go find the club I wanted everybody to know who I was and I felt by doing that by going alone and playing 25 50 75 100 games I'd established myself away from Chelsea and people know me.

19:16So I have that option. And it's not like, okay, we'll see what he's like just because he's from Chelsea because some people fall down that trail of they've never played a game. But if that manager in the league is fighting for his life, he needs to be able to trust you more than anything. You might have the skills, but can he trust you? Don't laugh. When you're doing like low moves as a youngster, is it like a glamorous life where you like staying in Premier Inns ad hoc? Yeah, yeah. Premier Inns. Depends, the older you get, the more prestige player you get. You get obviously you get looked after.

19:43But yeah, just hotels, any hotels in the middle of Oldham. But I loved it, you know. You go there, you have your independence, you've got your routine, you're turning up, you've got your games on the Saturdays. There's nothing better. Your goal obviously was always to make it properly at Chelsea, right? You were doing those loans to go, right, come back and play regularly. Were the managers giving you that confidence when you were being sent out on loan? Chelsea was, yeah, they would keep in touch. I think Neil Bath would keep in touch more so. And Neil Bath, sorry, just for calling, he was the academy manager, right?

20:11Yeah, academy director, yeah. Very top man. set the whole culture and everything really really good guy really really good guy so basically they would keep in touch a lot chelsea had a lot of managers change over i think you know as yeah that was the that was the blueprint so every time we come back to pre-season it was kind of like starting back at square one the most pivotal point was i think i was at nottingham forest great club great time there and january coming uh billy davis was the manager and he pulled me into the office it's like ryan are you staying what's going on i said what do you mean he said we're trying to buy you this window they're saying everything's done but we're just waiting for you i said to him sorry i have no idea about any of this like nobody's spoken to me about anything okay let me uh let me come back to you it was on a friday like we got a game the next day and stuff let me come back to you so leave training you know go through a few things over the next week and then made the decision where that's what happens in clubs is directors come in directors has changed directors bring players they want their players to play so when they bring their players in they try and push their players if they're going to spend two million pound on this player but they've only spent 200 grand on you from gillingham then he's going to push this two million pound player because he's next on the line that's just that's just the reality of what you have to understand unless you excel so so much but he's going to give his player the element of doubt i'm not going to name the man or the player i was in competition it was another left back at the time and I remember coming and I thought now I'm gonna go back to Chelsea so I cancelled the loan and not in the forest went back to Chelsea I was training and then the other left back was there I was training with the first team as well and I remember doing a warm-up and I was doing the warm-up and I looked over there was this director that left back another player with the manager Ancelotti at the time they're all laughing at the side of the pitch blah blah blah and I'm like I'm over here doing the warm-up trying to give the best account myself but one of my competitions it's just over there with the director laughing and joking with with the manager i was thinking this is a bit off balance but i took it as this is director trying to push this left back in there so that's just the nature of the beast i cancelled the loan come back to the first team and at the end of that month the funniest thing was i didn't actually get paid and i was like i didn't get paid i told my mom i said i didn't get paid she was like okay i will call the club called the club and the club said oh sorry we've got him down as he's left it's like no no he's still here so i don't know factually but i think that the deal was that advanced behind my back that i was actually down as i've left the club crazy just so we understand you said they're kind of directors of football pushing the players they have it's always a perception that managers choose everything it's the manager it's the manager can you just share a bit of light on directors and managers and the roles there so he was like a manager of the youth elite talent so it's kind of like pushing your guys up to the first team and then it's down to the manager but the manager will only see what he gets shown first or gets presented in this light so after I cancelled the loan I come back and I just train non-stop I was fortunate that Ancelotti saw it was not bad a couple of months later I had my debut against Birmingham got the assist and the rest was history Ancelotti gave you your debut yeah but only because I made that decision to come back did he communicate with you as to why did he hide you just turn up in training just perform perform when he's doing tactics listen be able to learn the tactics understand the tactics and he trusts him okay so then let's use that because he then leaves you mentioned this like going back to like the start every time he said how many games you want next season and stuff I was like what do you mean how many games I was like I don't know 20 all in something he said no problem then he got the second that's finished so then AVB comes in yeah and you have to have the same conversation again at the time yeah He was kind of Fabian Herzler style at the time.

23:57Was he 31? Yeah, Mahjong. I think he was tasked with the chalice of transition. I think he was meant to try and make a transition. What's happened to him? He's president of Porto. Director of Porto, yeah. Oh, yeah. But he then went to... Went to China. China. Went to Spurs, of course. Yeah, Spurs. Don't forget that. Yeah, it's funny. I really respect him for a few things in terms of how straightforward he was. And he told the truth, which was amazing. he said at the start of the season look there was a guy called Andreas Pereira probably it was a left wing backer or something they were trying to bring in and he was saying look Newcastle here they want to take you saying I don't want to sell you but I want to bring this person in and if I get this person in I don't want to stand in your way to go to Newcastle I was like when he said that I was like thank you very much because at that time were you already so you had Ashley Cole and you yeah and then that so that would have brought basically three of you in the same position yeah another one and I was getting to the age where I need consistent time.

24:54But he just fancied this player. So he thought he'd rather go with Pereira than me, which is fine, absolutely fine. And that's what I love about managers. You just be men, you know, men is men. Do you think that most don't tell the truth? Or just hide it or whatever. But he's probably one of the only ones that was very direct in that instance, you know, could have, didn't have to call me into his office. But I appreciate it because he said, look, Newcastle here. If I take him, you can go Newcastle. If not, I want you in my team. Because it's not like I want to get rid of you, but I would love this person over you.

25:25How did that style compare to Ancelotti's style? I think the style was a bit too structured. I think he was a bit too... AVB. AVB, yeah. It was a bit too... Hold this. It was a bit too rigid, the whole tactics and the way he was trying to implement them. You think that was because he was a young manager trying to make a mark, not an experienced head who had the confidence already in his approach? Yeah, probably had the... wanted to show the bravado and the strength. It was hard because it was a transition between all the senior guys as well. I think maybe there were some conversations about transitioning them on and then going through a transition of the kind of senior guys out, new guys in.

26:03And I think that probably just got mismanaged because they were some strong senior guys. But also you have a 30, was he 31? I think he was. Yeah, I think so. 31 year old. And then you've got Terry, Lampard, Drogba, Cole, Cech who are the same if not older. is that a strange relationship to have? Yeah possibly and I think maybe there was a mismatch on just having that I think you look at a Brighton coach I think he has that aura of I know I'm young I'm willing to listen to anybody but I know what I'm good at I know what I want to do I'm not saying I have all the answers I'm very confident and then the older players can share in with that I think maybe AVB's when he wanted to be like I'm in charge I know what I'm doing I don't need you guys it's a bit tough But that transition then when he leaves in February, Di Matteo comes in and it obviously ends in the Champions League win, which seemed massively driven by the dressing room as much as it was by the manager.

26:58Yeah, it was. I think exactly what it turned into by being led by, you know, Robbie and the players, the senior players, is what Chelsea had lost because we was in a precarious moment in the league where things were inconsistent. I think it was like 6th or something, which is ridiculous. We had a meeting one time and I think ABB went. A big meeting, everyone basically, what's changed? What's different? What's going on? I want everybody to speak and give their opinion. And when it come to me, my thoughts was my feeling of the whole dressing room and the club at that time was, it just didn't feel like the Chelsea that I was brought up in where from the age of, you know, 16, 17, 18, 19 to 20, we didn't think about losing.

27:40it wasn't a thing it wasn't like an over arrogance but it was you would look around and you're so confident that everyone is the best in their position there's no one here that's here because of anything and you get so much power from that and the ethos was winning and winning and winning and there used to be this feeling from the youth team down and you look at the records of everyone white I don't know I can't really explain it but there was a feeling of you would never ever think about losing You said that? Yeah I said I don't think it's here What was the response? No it was everyone it wasn't like a debate each it was just listen to everyone's thing and i say that was the biggest thing for me i just felt like we'd lost that i feel like we're going into games thinking about oh hopefully we can win is there a feeling of resignation when you are in a bad period and the rumors start swirling is x manager but in this case avb is are they going to get the sack are the players in an element of fuck it there's not much we can do we're on the downward slope how does that temperament look when the downward slope is very obvious yeah going through a few times from the player's perspective i think it it becomes frustration because i think the managers go into pure delusion i don't know if it's tough for them it's hard to think about everything objectively it's hard for them to come away from themselves and actually see their actions they're kind of blaming players or they need this they need that but their whole action the way they're taking the training sessions, the tempo of the training session, the detail of the tactical approach is just a shadow of what it once were when the manager was being successful.

29:12And I just think maybe they just get into an operational blur, egotistical protection. I'm not sure what it is, but they just get into this lane. Was it at the time at the club, and it's an interesting point on prioritisations, but the Champions League was such an issue for the club. It had been the thing that Abramovich had wanted from the start and it hadn't happened despite being one kick away. And that year it really did, it's easy to say now because we won it, but that year really did feel like the last time that group of players would probably be at the level they needed to be at to win it.

29:43Did that all-consuming obsession become actually quite a hard thing for, should we say the managers to be able to deal with, but also the players? As the players, it definitely wasn't a stress. It was, we want to do that. We have to do that. Everyone wants to do that. We have to make that step. Yeah, and like I said, that was the feeling and the thing. It was normal. it was normal for us to take that step what's the feeling in the dressing room as you're like getting ready it's 7 30 kickoffs at eight what is that feeling is it excitement is it nerves is it yeah a bit of a bit of everything depends which game you're talking about yeah i was saying the final uh the final yeah that was like can you palpably feel the nerves yeah can't you hear it is it not coming through again the only player to ever make his debut in the champions league in the final the you know the thing for me is i think because of the the very um kind of pathway i've had and I felt like I was fortunate enough to go to Chelsea and stuff but I felt like everything I developed after that was earned.

30:38I never had like an easy ticket where you say oh come on let's go here or I fancy him and you get like this you know some players get this elevated pathway I've had to learn and go and play and play and play and play and keep playing to develop it and coming back to Nottingham Forest Billy Davis funny so I'll be in a Champions League final and all I'm thinking about is Billy Davis and he used to say so he's playing against Derby and we played them that's a big game now I think we beat them like 5-2 or something but before the game he was like he was just walking around the dressing room saying play the game and not the occasion just walking around saying play the game not the occasion and funny enough when I was at that Champions League when I was getting ready that's all I could think of so when I'm hearing the Champions League soundtrack and stuff which is amazing and having that realization I've got this this echo of just playing a game is just another game.

31:26Did it actually work? Easy to say, hard to do. Yeah, it did. It actually worked alright playing against like for example Robin was dead no matter how dangerous he was. I'd had that repetition against him when I was 16. The more you play against a player you become familiar with them. So it wasn't like I played against him in major competition but trust me it's not easy to get 300 one and ones against Robin in pre-season. I remember Robin so much for Adidas F50. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was the one remember with the ones that covered up the laces. I remember it was the black, like electric blue around the back.

31:56Was it like a was it full black or was it like a grey? It was grey black. On that note, do you get paid to have like a boot deal? Yeah. Were you Adidas? Yeah I was Adidas. I had Adidas, I had their 50s. They were probably not necessarily banking on you starting left wing in the Champions League final. So I would imagine like now being obviously helping some people out on their journeys. You're all versed so you can go up to millions now. And you sign up for a season no it'd be quite a long-term contract four or five years and then they'll be like what you do is kind of implement like a matrix system or development system so it's always progressive so you get promised i don't know 100 pounds a year but you'll get guaranteed 50 pounds but if you play x amount of games here you'll activate another 10 x amount of games there and you activate the full retainer then you get the money so that'll be international games premier league games where you can activate the whole thing totally yeah so when you look at like say your core salary paycheck from chelsea whatever club you're at what percent is core salary versus alternative financing be it boot deals be it toothpaste instagram ads you name it yeah well your core monthly will be salary and bonuses performance bonuses yeah and then there's a team performance bonus that's paid at the end of the year depending on where you finish and how many games you've played what was the biggest team performance bonus team performance bonus surely champions league yeah champions league i think for 90 minutes and everyone gets the same there if you play for example if he was consistent in competition and played all the games you get played per percentage of games that you played basically it's broke down into the pool because one was champions league who told you you were starting that final yeah robbie at lunchtime yeah was it completely unexpected or did you have a was there any hope i had probably 10 % thought because if you look at I think even some of the last game of the season, we had suspensions what a win, honestly the whole story, that's crazy, the Napoli come back, the Camp Nou it's mad, the same year right, so we lost 3-1 to Napoli away everyone's like, done beat them 4-1 at Stamford Bridge then it was Benfica, then it was Barcelona, 1-0 at Stamford Bridge, Terry sent off in the second leg, Terry off, Ivanovic kicking the spot, gets the booking gets the ban Messi misses the penalty Was Zivanovic a great team mate?

34:21Yeah he's a top man core part of the team super good guy Horrible part of that was when he found out he missed the final in the interview I remember watching it and he was like what? He didn't know Unbelievable But that Torres got how was Torres? Yeah very good guy very good guy Because as fans you just wanted him to do well Yeah And he had amazing moments but not the expectations He needed to be more consistent in the main part But other than that, he was a very, very good guy. That's one thing. All of them were proper men. I think some difference now were not really age-related, but they were all mature, very mature, like all leaders, captains.

34:58Why do you think that is? I'm not sure. I'm not sure how the differences change so much. I don't miss the game in general. Do you think there's a difference in loyalty to club? I think one thing you see more is just an increasingly mercenary nature to football clubs, partly by players themselves, where wearing the badge doesn't quite mean as much as it used to. And the fierce loyalty of a Lampard and a Terry and you name it, you don't necessarily see that at times today. Yeah, it's true. But I would say that's also on the clubs. Clubs now, if they get a good deal and they think it's a business transaction they want to execute on, no matter who you are, then there's a chance they'll look at it, whether maybe previously they just wouldn't have entertained an offer.

35:36The players have a lot of love for Abramovich. Abramovich was obviously a loved figure by the fans. yeah yeah massive deep you know respect towards him i think just how he conducts himself how did he conduct himself very um very calm you know whether he's in the training ground or come into the dressing room he would speak or just you know sit on his corner but just have this aura of respect and uh he never came in at half time and gave you a hair dryer treatment and pop out of the uh the laundry basket or whatever jose did yeah did he actually get did he get involved ever with the negotiation side let's say you're trying to sign a new deal and maybe it was a tough one or there was a player who really wanted to come was that down to the team or was there a moment where the owner actually goes no you need to hear this from me so the owner he would deliver if there was a second of the manager would he yeah he would would go into the media room himself will be there and he's one of his main right hand guys uh eugene would be there as well and what's that like what's the atmosphere yeah that's a that's an interesting atmosphere that's a it's a very you can feel the power in them situations and he would give his reasons why he's not happy to get rid of this manager because of X, Y and Z and why he might be disappointed with us but it's important that we move forward Which manager was there the most discontent about seeing leave?

36:54Probably I wasn't so close to it then probably Mourinho I think that was one moment where he thought when he left then he thought anything's possible in football right now First time? Yeah the first time Second time was a bit different Was there any manager you didn't say who? Where everyone was like, thank God. Yeah, a few. That was it, honestly. Is it hard to play for a manager you don't respect? Yeah, I think so. And the respect is hard not to have. I think I probably only had it with really one manager. Why? Maybe it's just like when the dinner ladies don't like you. That's a problem, right?

37:31How is that transitioning? your whole aura the way you're moving around is too like I'm the way everyone needs to listen to me this is how it's going to go and then you go 360 and a year later you're you're actually communicating things you're actually seeing the value in old players actually taking on new ideas is actually what's going to make you survive in the best league in the world Did you see a major change in how managers conducted themselves? What they were able to do maybe in the end of a Ferguson Mourinho time to the managers they then had to be to get on well with players towards the end of your career?

38:05Yeah, I kind of, I think there was three changes and I think two come very, very quick. I think you had the traditional managers like Ferguson's perhaps and then when kind of Wenger come along a bit, they were kind of like tactics, get around your man and then great, they were great man managers. Their squad was, you know, very gelled, very cohesive. And then it moved to kind of deep tacticians. I think Mourinho tinkering with every little thing, doing so many unorthodox things to win a game. and then come the kind of now the way the managers are going the Klops, the Peps loads of managers the detail they put into their game it's not remember it went down the phase of I'm the manager you're the coach now I think the top top managers are like well coaches they're coach managers so they'll take it they'll have their coaches but they'll be leading sessions they'll still be on the pitch leading sessions we're looking for meticulous changes details not just leaving it to their coach Gone are the days of that old school mantra where it's like, yeah, let my coaches take Monday to Thursday.

39:07I'll come out on a Friday and do the last little bit. The managers nowadays are so detailed in what they do. Which manager today do you look at and think I would most like to play under you? Be Pep or Klopp. Playing against them two teams was amazing. They're so mentally intense. I think City is a more mentally draining game. Liverpool's probably more physically draining. they used to stress for example people playing against Liverpool that Salah and Mane they would run inside all day long they'd be threatening long ball they'd keep possession but they wouldn't be scared to play a long ball but a long ball is so accurate they're sprinting in behind so you can't head it back to the keeper the ball's not got enough pace on it so you can't do a big header so you have to just get some sort of contact on it or guide it out of play but if you do get that contact if not Salah's in behind you the midfield even though it's gone long they haven't fought oh it's gone long but I wanted it short and then they turn around and then they go no as soon as the ball goes long the Hendersons the everyone's of the world is turning sprinting picking up that second phase ball and then they got you in your half and if you're playing City it's more there's a player there I need to get close to him he's a bit too far but as soon as I move out of this gap someone's going to pop in this gap so I have to stay in this gap it's like a game of chess City it's like the most intense game so they've got mad possession so they've got runners everywhere but you can't move too far because they're waiting for you to move out of the pocket and they'll kill you in that pocket tell us like you've got liverpool on a saturday the week before that what's happening are you tailoring to the opponent are you focused on your tactics yeah we're focused probably three parts so how we're going to build up from our build-up play whether we've seen something where we can play short and once we play short and execute one two three passes the space is there you know how we're going to kill them from from the start or if that's not on we're just going to squeeze up we're going to play to Trent's side because he's probably weaker in the air and he's further away from Virg as well and then you'll go through their consistent attacks of how we need to defend and cover each other and then how we're going to attack them if we get into their attack in third how we're going to kill them there, what's the best runs and then how we're going to press them who's the weak point, which points are we going to jump on, where are we going to try and push the game so there'll be loads of different levels In my head when you're talking about this I'm thinking of you at Southampton when you're playing regularly captaining the side, it's the moment of transition right when when you are going from this history that you had with chelsea to then that decision to move and and move permanently most importantly why um just to continue my trajectory to be honest it's 25 i think 25 just to continue to continue my game i've already i had that ethos at the start i'd love playing and then obviously you're in a big squad so you need to be patient i think my games went something like 12 18 25 30 and they were progressing until they did and they stopped to progress.

41:57I think when, I think when Mourinho probably come in, he started to play an Azpi left back, this and that, and all these. So there's no problem for me. Do you think Azpi was a better left back than you? No chance. It was possible. But if you look at the tactic, probably Mourinho probably wanted a more solid, consistent player, but I could do that. But also he knew I could just go, possibly go winning the game, but he probably didn't want that person winning the game or assisting the game or he'd rather hedge and be more conservative because I think him and his whole personal demeanour tactically changed from his initial.

42:32When he first came, it was 4-3-3, 4-diamond-2. We would know, I remember the youth team, we used to have to replicate things. Very progressive football, very attacking and winning. And he never stopped winning for sure, but the tactic actually changed. I think he'd become more conservative with his approach to the game over time. Second time around, that team was, well, he came back and won the title, didn't he? He got Fabregas, Diego Costa in. and it actually plays football. Yeah, and I think Fabregas is probably so key because he could release people with that long ball. Diego Costa. He was an animal.