The Real Finances of a Footballer: What Goes on Behind the Headlines | Matt Smith (Ep.102)

39:03And then a chunk will get in appearance money. And then if you're a centre forward, naturally you'll get a goal bonus. If you're a defender or a goalkeeper, you'll probably get a clean sheet bonus. And then there'll be the team bonus structure, which gets negotiated at the beginning of every season or in the pre-season. The captain probably will come together with maybe a kind of more vocal player. The dressing room will meet with the director of football or whoever at the club, the decision maker at the club, and they'll negotiate. And the last season's bonus schedule is the benchmark for this season's upcoming bonus schedule.

39:39And you'll negotiate that, what a win bonus looks like, what X finish in the league, what avoiding relegation, what winning a trophy might look like, rounds, and all that sort of stuff. Unless Harry Redknapp's your manager. In which case, he's like, well, I'm not paying him to miss them. Yeah, there's an argument for a lot of things. Why you should have a clean sheet bonus when you're paid to stop golf. Yeah. Or why you should have an appearance bonus when you're paid to play football. There's certainly a valid, valid argument. But of your£100 you got in a year, what percent is salary versus? I'd say a good£90,£95 would be salary.

40:16Maybe£90. Okay,£90 versus the other 10 coming from that. Talk to me about external contracts with brands, with companies that want you to promote. how did that look in dressing rooms so i probably was a level too low for to see that more commonly i think brand deals commercial deals definitely operate for the elite of the elite i think you know those types of opportunities you'd see certainly the top end of the premier league maybe less so even probably mid mid premier league downwards we were fascinated we had miguel um who's a leading premier league agent on the show and he said you'd be amazed by people who are sent back for the national English team won't have any brand deals.

41:02100%, absolutely. And it's just your Bellingham and it's just your one or two top who get everything. Yep, absolutely. And yeah, that's definitely true. Yeah, I definitely say those are reserved for the elite crop of players. So yeah, I definitely didn't see any of that filter down into the championship where I was for the lion's share in my career. Even boot deals, they kind of died to death quite early on in my career. you know players would be getting paid um now like credit you know you'd get like you know adidas or nike will give you a card and you can spend it on the website and you'd get a couple of grand a year to spend on whatever you'd like but gone are the days where you know you'd be getting paid by these boot companies for just wearing their boots you know unless like i said you're the top end we've interviewed a variety of different owners and you know the kind of recurring theme is that football clubs sadly are bad businesses and the foundations of which the football league is built on is incredibly precarious are you aware as a player in the team another team aware that the businesses behind this are basically donated by millionaires and they are bad businesses are you guys aware of the frailty of the business that is paying you definitely not me personally yes so I was really fortunate so in my 30s I was 30 31 I was at Millwall I decided to do an MBA which again was a little bit born out of fear because I thought right every year's a cherished year come 30 you know I want to be able to move into something seamlessly when I retire I've got this time on my hands let's do an MBA only can help me do you I mean as opposed to just getting home and training and going around Harrods or having a coffee with someone as part of the MBA when MBA grads will probably tell you a lot of it is to do with you know reflecting on the business that you currently work in so for me as a player it's very difficult to have access to a lot of information that you might need for an accounting module for instance so I got really lucky and obviously God rest his soul John Berylson was my my um my owner at millwall who was like 10 out of 10 human being he literally opened the cabinet for me at millwall i had access to everything so he really drew the curtain back and showed me what it was like to run a football club from everything down from the finances to the day-to-day operations he was incredible with me and spent hours with me um i know his son jimmy jimmy yeah jimmy yeah i I saw him a few weeks ago.

43:37But yeah, John was incredible. So to answer your question, yes, like I really understood how much John was personally supporting the club, how much his capital was propping up elements of what I would say about Millwall. It was an immaculately well-run club, always spent within their means, punched above their weight every single season. Definitely not one of the top spending clubs in the division. but the players themselves don't understand definitely not definitely not i think you know they might have a headline in their head about certain things to do with that but definitely not would john be available for that information openly honestly i went to him so he had done an nba himself he'd graduated from harvard with an nba so i went to him originally because he was there a lot of the time at games at train at the training ground we just he'd sit and have lunch with us and one thing about joint you could talk like you could be sat there for an hour which is great but um so when i mentioned to him just in a fleeting conversation i'm doing my mba it was as if like a light bulb went off in his head it's like right well you know i'm gonna help you the minute i i think the first thing we spoke about was i've got this accounting module i need to talk about the finances of my business how on earth am i going to do that as a player i don't have access to any of this information is that right mark's the fd here's his number ring him he's going to give you everything and then like just sat on the phone with me for you know hours talking about anything and everything I actually like he was just telling me he always said to me privately that he saw a little bit of himself in me the way he went about things and I don't know it was almost like he was a proud parent and Jimmy actually said the same thing to me when we spoke it was almost like he was a bit of a proud parent the fact that he had a player that was doing that that he had done previously so yeah like incredible human an amazing club shaking off a perception I think a lot often built on the past we've had Mark Fairbrother on the show who's now CEO talking about the work they're doing what was it like as a player playing for them loved it really loved it so massive misconception of what the club's like I think proper family club when you're in the building really proper family club I think I experienced it as an away player even playing for Leeds which was a fierce rivalry what it's like as an away player is intimidating and yes they can you know they've had headlines for the wrong reasons a lot of the time and so I can understand the general wider public perception of what the club might be like.

45:53But as a player who's been in that environment, been with the fans, I loved it. Absolutely loved it. Can I ask, when you look at the relationship that you have there with an incredible owner like you mentioned, how do you feel about the private equitization, the professionalization of ownership structures that we're seeing in football today? It's changing. Like I said, these ownership groups are kind of vast now. So whereas when you kind of could pinpoint it to one person and like a beacon of the club, it feels like it's like a broader wider group um and you see even seen at the back end of my time at Salford you know the class of 92 is now obviously you know giving up their shares and it's a broader private equity group and you're seeing it all over the Premier League now I think what percentage is American private equity it's a 11 clubs yeah and it's only probably going to get bigger it's like a real wave and a trend we're seeing so how do you feel about that um now being out of it I don't think I have as long as they run well and I think as long as they run well I think is the key do you think they run well?

46:52some yeah I think you might need to break that down who's run best and who's run worst I mean I look at a club like I look at a club like Brentford I look at a club like Brighton I've always admired Brentford from afar for the simple reason they recruit and sell incredibly well. Like, I always look at the strikers that they bring in. They'll score 20 goals, sell them. They'll bring another one in and I think, okay, good luck to him. He'll score 20. They'll sell him. Even the championship, they did it. You saw the turnover of centre forwards that would hit Neil Mopé, Olly Watkins, Scott Hogan. And they got in Burma in the champ, didn't they?

47:36Yeah, every single year they would do it in the champ. Yeah, every single year they would do it and I'd think like, wow, like whoever's doing their recruitment is, and I think they probably set the trend of this whole Moneyball theme of data-driven, analytics data-driven recruitment, which I think has probably gone a little bit too far now. Why do you think it's gone too far? Because I think there's a lot more to, so Moneyball obviously was derived out of the US, the whole Billy Bean, Oakland A's story that is obviously well documented, but I think with those American sports, particularly baseball is so repetitive, there's like an action, it gets repeated over and over, even in American football, you stop you start you stop you start basketball similar is when you with football it's 90 minutes it's constantly variable there is so many you know adverse weather conditions pitches everything is so so variable that i just think there's more to it than just the numbers and i think certainly i experienced the back end of my career where recruitment was so driven by numbers like if you didn't hit this metric or you weren't this age or you didn't fit into like an algorithm of sorts you would be not you know up for you weren't an option basically um and i think it can go a little bit too far i think character plays a huge part who's the worst run the worst run i've ever seen was my experience at leeds under under massimo chelino just because he was a full-blown lunatic i mean obviously he's i think had a number of like fraudulent things that have come against to him you've been arrested he obviously failed the fit the the fit and onus test yeah just my experience just like hugely disrespectful um you know sacked numerous people across the club the training ground the stadium just yeah just it's really unstable and i think that's something did you feel that in the team oh god yeah so i signed so my experience with him was was nuts he i think he came in the we had done great it's my first season the championship we had done great up to christmas i think we were fifth and he it was grumblings that he was going to take over in around that time he took over brian mcdermott was my manager who was like yeah wonderful human were very well respected incredible pedigree um and then we had a tricky january we lost to rochdale in the fa cup which is never good in the third round away two nil was awful awful day and And then I think we lost another league game and he sacked him.

50:04But out of the blue, we were flying in the league, but we just had a sticky couple of weeks. And he sacked him and everyone was like, bloody hell, what's going on here? Like, he's been great. Do you know what I mean? We're doing fine. We just had a rough few weeks. There was a huge uproar from the fans. I think they protested at the ground, maybe did something to his car or something. Do you know what I mean? It was crazy. And then he reinstated him and then he got sacked again. it was just so unstable and then our results just i'm not saying it was because of him but you know there's a lot more to it but they you know the results fell off a cliff and they're going from fifth i think we finished 16 17.

50:42do you voice your disapproval as a player consortium or is there a chasm between player communication and owner in that case definitely it definitely gets voiced but i wouldn't say necessarily directly to the owner it would be through a director of football type position. I think in that case it's unique to that scenario. I don't think we did. I think the results, we just fell off a cliff entirely and then I remember we broke up for the summer and then naturally you get six, seven weeks to go away and enjoy. We had a text message off the player liaison a week into my summer holidays saying be at Ellen Road for a meeting with the owner.

51:18One-on-one meetings with the owner on the 2nd of June. And I was like, wow. And so he had done the legal minimum legal allowance of holidays i think is three weeks so that was the day after that that minimum time that you're allowed off and he pulled us all into a meeting so i was in america at the time everyone was scattered around the world as they are with family you know guys with kids and remember the players group chat was like i'm not going back like i'm not going back for a meeting like what's going on and then the captain spoke to the pfa and they're like yeah they can fine you like a week's wage or whatever the hefty fine if you don't show up to a mandatory meeting so I think there were a few lads that I'm not going sure enough second of June everyone I flew back from San Francisco everyone was in the room and I was in the room with him for 30 seconds and then it was you can okay I'll see you at the end of June what did he say at the time I'd like I said I'd had a good season a really good season me and Ross McCormack were to the like the highest scoring partnership in the country or something at the time and I'd only signed a two-year deal when I joined so I had a three-year deal waiting for me and my agent was telling me that you know you've got three years on the table for you we just can't seem to get over the line but we will be patient so I half of me thought when I was going back for the meeting that like we talk about it you know what I mean but I remember going in and he was like ah Smith Smith come in come in and he was like um have a meeting with your agent we talk about money money money all we talk about is the bloody money and he's like i'm not happy and i was like oh shit like i thought we were getting somewhere and then he was like um what else he said he was like i remember seeing you against bolton i know like and i was like in my head i was like i didn't play against bolt when i was injured and then he was like um you did a degree in business and i was like yeah yeah i did and he's like oh you can help me run the club and he was like okay you go you go and like shooed me out of the room and i left the room i was like i've literally flown 13 hours from america for that and there was nothing tangible nothing and everyone was the same could have called you up could have i mean it didn't even i don't know what we that's that literally word for word in verbatim what got said what was the players chat like just even fury just like i've left kids in it was more for the guys with kids they were like i've left my wife and my kids on holiday expense to come back to then be told right you can go back on holiday now and i'll see you the end of june just like it was almost like a punishment you know and that's how it felt so i think lads were i think people it wasn't just that like the training ground uh became thought parks um thought park sorry should i say is a amazing training ground anyone who's been there will tell you the same amazing facilities like really lovely place became bit of a ghost town really sacked everyone drain the pool all the recovery facilities were switched off you know that was and it became like almost a place no lunch no food you had to bring your own in if you wanted um what yeah he said you could earn your food what yeah it became nuts it became really really nuts um honestly i could literally write a book like of that era but the thing is because the caretaker manager didn't have any influence or really no knowledge of what was going on he was just literally taking training take you know doing the games there was no i guess dialogue had all been lost between ownership and and management is everyone seeking an exit at that point i think everyone's just seeking some clarity i think it was get to the end of the season and then see what brings we we ended up taking a non-league manager dave hockaday no one had ever heard of with respect to him even even he said the same thing about himself coming in i mean he lasted i mean if you google his tenure i don't think it was more than eight weeks whatever it was it was really short and then he just went through like a culling of different managers at that point but i i left so what happened to the owner uh he eventually got arrested yeah and then he got arrested yeah or in italy he'd had a load of misdemeanors for for different like fraudulent type activities was there ever a time when the money didn't come through like the salaries weren't paid or was delayed yeah a couple of instances where it's delayed um always paid but delayed.

55:28What is the team chat saying there? Yeah, angry. Because it's like anything. Is it like are we going to get petty? I think there's always, and you know, you see it happen nowadays, like at Sheffield Wednesday more recently, like it does happen. I think it's just, you know, it's a worry, you know, people who have mortgages to pay, direct debits, big outgoings, you know, if you're not paid on time and you miss those, for whatever reason, it can be hard and that's not to take pity on players it's it's all relative that's what i would say at the end of the day so is that the was that the summer you went to fulham yeah so i'd signed eventually back in the summer i got the three-year deal that we were speaking about in june um and got sold two weeks later which yeah so i i'd signed the manager that i'd mentioned dave hockarday got the sack um and that day he came around to say his goodbyes that to all the gesturing and the assistant said to me have you seen the list i said no and he said he said there's a list of six six guys that he's put on the transfer list and I was like well I'm not I've just signed a contract like a week ago for three years um he said you're on the list so I was like so he's like go up to the office now so obviously they just vacated their office and I went up to this and sure enough there were six names and I was I was one of them so I rang my agent and he was he couldn't believe it and then like a couple of days later I heard there was some interest from Fulham and because Ross McCormack who had played well had gone there he was I think he he fought my corner I said, right, they were struggling at the time, take them.

56:54And then I went to Fulham. Fulham had just been relegated from the prep. Yeah. That was the Felix Magat chaos, right? Yeah. That was interesting as well. Wow. Just, yeah. You know when, listen, he's won three Bundesligas. He's admired by so many elite level players. But you know when you, anyone at Fulham at the time will tell you, you know when you come in and you're like, wow, like this is mental. Why? Why? Just like some wild training tactics. And again, he got sacked within 10 days of me arriving. That was not the best time of my life either because I literally, I'd come in, done really well in the first 10 days of training under him, started my first game against Reading, got sent off within 15 minutes on my Fulham debut.

57:37You got sent off on your Fulham debut? He got sacked after the following game, which I was suspended for. So yeah, I got sent off 15 minutes in. Yeah, touch tackle. Wow. Big pass into me from midfield, took a loose touch. and then just absolutely sent a forward throw off someone's ankle yeah when you come out of that and you're sitting at home that evening what are you thinking? why did he do that? like just why why didn't he just accept that it was a bad touch and just let he was in the middle of the pitch the player was looking towards his own goal you see it happen so often it's your debut yeah it's your debut definitely that played a played a factor what would you say to a player who's approaching their debut, the nerves are high, the tension's high.

58:21What's your one bit of advice to them going into a debut? Don't overthink it. It's just another game. Don't overthink it. I think often you can get caught up in the emotion of games and it might be symbolic for a lot of it. Like I hated playing against old teams and I hated playing against maybe an old team where a lot of my close friends were on that other team. I used to really overthink it in my head about you've got to do well and da-da-da-da. Yeah, that would be my one advice. Don't overthink it. It's just another game. Were the Khans in charge then, I'm trying to think, 2014? So how much of a role did they play?

58:51Did you speak to them as a legend? Yeah, I got really close to Tony. He was definitely hands-on, which I don't mind. I don't mind if it's done in the right way. It's like if it's done in a pretty invasive way and it's very in your face. What's the difference between good hands-on and bad hands-on? Good hands-on for me is there's a presence. Shake your hand, have a chat with you. You know, they're respectful. bad hands-on is where you can see aggressive decision-making being made in front of your eyes you know that's sometimes players might think right okay you're in the boardroom you're in the dressing room you're in the canteen you're here there and everywhere and you it feels like you've got a real presence i always like the ones who are a little bit more i'm sure listen they're going to have huge say in what goes on but they're in front of the players they're a little bit more on the back foot.

59:42It was quite a strange dynamic, wasn't it? I remember it was quite comedic in loads of ways because you had, obviously Shahid Khan was the main owner of Fulham, but Tony, his son, was on the ground doing a lot of the communicative work and he would be quite active on Twitter as well, wouldn't he? Yeah, and you do see that more and more, like ownership groups being active on social media. Do players dislike that? I think, yeah, if they're super vocal, maybe they think, Christ, maybe they should just be a little less like players will you know obviously not be encouraged to engage with fans or in any sort of meaningful way so i think if they see the ownership doing that or you know i think it's a the problem with i think there's an undercurrent or belief with players that the ownership group is listening to the voice of twitter which isn't the voice that you probably should be listening to i think twitter can be a bit like a pub not necessarily the people that are at the games that really understand the games it could be anyone really you know the like keyboard warriors is and i i think certainly some of the players might think that the owners are taking what they're saying really to heart and i think the wider problem with society is the short termism with everything there's a lack of everything's impulsive now and i think things like social media things like twitter just exacerbate the situation i think there's a lack of patience nowadays because of things like that did you ever have some tough periods on social media when moving in between a number of rivals you're going fulham qpr no do you know can i be honest i always had a good rapport with all the fan bases i was at i always like i was really respectful of everywhere i went i think fans will always take to you if you work hard for them if you show that you care if you put your if you wear your heart on your sleeve you put your body on the line you're committed I think they'll always you know moving obviously from West London to East London yeah the odd comment but like largely I had a really good relationship with all the fan bases that I was under and I think it was just because I was honest and which club were you most happy to leave um that's hard to say really because it's hard to say that I didn't I was never happy to leave for any other reason than just playing more like so yeah the back end of my time at certain clubs I was playing less I was happy to leave for a professional reason which was I was going to play but actually my my um experiences at all the clubs from like just a personal level were great like I got so lucky I lived on the Fulham Road for nine years and played for some massive London clubs and it was great.

1:02:26I could live there and I had half an hour to Mottsburgh Park, I had half an hour to Heathrow and I had 40 minutes to Bermondsey. It was wonderful. And then Leeds was just an incredible experience. Even take the ownership situation aside, which made it unstable. It's an amazing club. Incredible. That's a proper fan base. Fanatical fan base. And Brian Mademey used to say, well, he used to say every game's an event with Leeds. It's not just a game, it's an event. It's like the Premier League experience when you drive to the game and there's people walking from miles out and it just feels like a real event and that was Leeds in a nutshell.

1:02:59Where did you play your best? Bristol City. Probably played my best, like probably played my best football at Bristol City, which was... On loan? Which was on loan. Yeah, probably in terms of like clinicalness in front of goal. And I think it was more like the thing I had in my career was fits and starts. Like I always had a season where I did well at a club, you know, where I hit double figures and do well. And then in my last season at Salford, I scored 25 and then and then retired so it's yeah for players on the back end of their career what would you advise them in terms of dropping down leagues to play football versus retiring on a high it's a really good point I think the the common bit of advice or the common analogy that you'll hear time and time again as a player is play as long as you can as high as you can as long as you can and you're a long time retired you'll always get that you're a long time retired to play for as long as you can and I can totally understand that there is so much life to live after you retire I think for me it was different because I had something else to move into that was moving at a fast pace and I was genuinely thinking 10 years versus 10 months and that's what it is fundamentally when you get to 32 33 you just worry about the next 10 months July to May July to May July to May and then it's another year it's rare that you I mean less common to get multi-year contracts once you get to a certain age so yeah i you know if it's one of those where the path isn't necessarily clear and obvious for sure drop the leagues and play and keep enjoying it because you are a long time retired but my advice first and foremost would be spin your plates try and map out as best you can the near future um and if you don't know what you're going to do then just spin your plates and and you know for me i thought i wanted to be a director of football or work in a club and kind of marry up my business interests with my experience but I fell into VC and you know that investment world because I just was open to different opportunities and sure enough that's the next part of my life now.

1:04:58Salford good club to play for? Really good I love the ownership group there they're really hands-on really respectful really nice it doesn't come with its difficulties obviously I've been the championship for 10-11 years and I dropped down to a league two team which was had just trying to find its feet from non-league so there was elements of it that I found quite frustrating but I wouldn't necessarily pin that on irresponsible ownership or anything like that other than just the circumstance you know gigs, goals but Beckham was obviously less hands-on you know honestly I really enjoyed it it was just times of Salford which are really frustrating in terms of quality of training ground the quality of the pitch elements of it were run well away day travel hotels and stuff were spot on but there were elements of it that were very were a bit non-league going and scoring like 25 goals was back in your career you said I mean it must have been a lot of fun but what was there a marked difference between you dropping down two leagues even later stage in your career did you not say did you find it easy but did you suddenly walk in there going okay I need to maybe it wasn't yeah it wasn't that I found it easy per se because I definitely didn't find it easy it was very physical and a lot more physical maybe than the championship you know the generally the defenders I think the higher you go and more so now is the defenders may become a bit more slight and a bit more ball playing whereas down there they're all like wardrobes so it's like it's every game's a fight and the referee the quality of that's one big difference quality of officiating is really poor in the lower leagues that's interesting really poor and really noticeable for someone like me who's just constantly having duels all the time and not getting anything and it's just yeah mental yeah just shit kicked out of you yeah basically biggest difference for me was the number of chances that you'd get in a game.

1:06:45Defensive errors, goals that would lead from defensive errors is much, much higher. And quality of goalkeeping was noticeably different as well. So yeah, for that reason, you end up getting more opportunities. And when you do shoot, it goes in probably more than when you're in the higher leagues. That was what I found to be different. Did you ever get a sniff, an opportunity to play in the Prem? Yeah, January of Leeds, Crystal Palace. But nothing ever materialised, unfortunately. That was my one opportunity, yeah. Did you ever get a stint for playing internationally? Again, that same time, Scotland.

1:07:15My dad was Scottish, so that was my route into international football was Scotland. Really good striking group of strikers at that time, and I probably was one or two injuries away from getting called up. But yeah, that was probably my time. I peaked Leeds years where I was young and just kind of broken through, and I think I was a bit of a shock to the system in terms of my size. and yeah, I had that January time when I think I'd hit a 10 by Christmas or New Year. I think that was when I was like, right, I could either get a Scotland call-up or get a move and unfortunately it happened. And that's probably not a regret of my career, but like if I look back, I'm proud of a lot of things.

1:07:51One is longevity, playing in the Championship for a long time is something I'm proud of for a lot of really good big teams. But missing out on the opportunities to play in the big league, because I genuinely think I could have had an impact in it being so different. I actually found playing against defenders in the higher leagues easier because certainly in the Premier League, they weren't used to the physicality of a big target man. They're used to more slight strikers who play off the shoulder or quicker. You know, my FA Cup, you know, games and my experiences against Premier League teams in the cup competitions, I actually found it to be a bit easier.

1:08:20Give that story. It's probably your crowning moment and it sheds a negative light on a team that I'm very happy to shed negative light. Yeah, no, it was my sliding doors moment. That's definitely my career when my sliding doors moment was 18 months of pro sport, going terribly and then turned on its head in in a month in january 2013 two goals against liverpool two goals against everton i suddenly went from like a real imposter syndrome of being in pro sport to right i've proven i can do it against the very best opposition confidence grew i ended up doing really well in the league off the back of it left a free agent because up to january i definitely wasn't getting a contract renewal from oldham and then signed for leads so it was definitely the real pivotal moment in my career and that kind of opened the doors for everything that then came but to give that context you played at Anfield scored twice in a 3-2 win that was at home that was at home we won 3-2 at Boundary Park yeah definitely hostile I remember the start of the game Luis Suarez was on the penalty spot taking the kickoff like shivering like this and I was thinking he's not up for this he doesn't fancy this today but it was a good I mean it was a great Liverpool team there Stevie G the front three I think was Sterling Sturridge and Suarez like it was a heavy team that played it wasn't like a yeah mediocre 11 Is Suarez just a nutter?

1:09:38Oh he's a savage like he's so good as well he's so good and that's that's why I enjoy playing against big teams it's like you see these guys live and then you test yourself against them Who are you most impressed by? Gerrard for sure like his ability to control a game like so I played against him a couple of times we played we got thumped against Liverpool in another cup competition 5-1 at Anfield and again like just ability to just control a game. Even on my back end, when I played against Wayne Rooney at Derby, that was a weird one because he played central midfield and controlled the game. And I looked at him, I thought, you're barely running.

1:10:15Like, you're just kind of, your positional sense and your football IQ is so high that, like, I feel like I'm because he was the deep line midfielder and my job was to kind of drop in on him. Listen, I'm not the most mobile, but for 90 minutes I thought, Jesus Christ, like, I feel like you've not broken a sweat mate and you're absolutely running the game. Those are always the kind of moments that I think as a player who hasn't played in the Premier League or at the highest level, it's like I love those moments because you really see up close how good these guys are. Do you think that football IQ is innate?

1:10:49To a degree, yeah. You're kind of born with it to a degree. Listen, you can get coached for sure, but I think certain elements, they always say the first five yards are in your head and it's true. like some guys just can see remember Scott Parker I always remember things he would say my captain at Fulham he was like always have two or three passes in your mind before the the pass comes into you like always play a few passes ahead and he was always like that like he would again run games and he was in the back I would love to have played with him in his prime but um he was always that way inclined like it's all in your head it's all between your ears like just have those passes in your mind before you actually get the ball was he the best player you played with I mean as a player yes but I probably caught him at the tail end of his career when he had a few ankle issues and stuff like that but no played with a lot of great players who was the best manager that you played for best coach Steve McLaren for sure and a lot of players that have had him as a coach will say the same thing why training sessions were really good I'm not a guy who loves training but I really enjoy training under him why short sharp intense to the point doesn't drag the ass out of it you don't have to listen to his voice all the time but he's got everything set up you go from thing to thing to thing to thing you feel good after it lively gets everyone going with the ball absolutely yeah just simple things like sometimes you don't have to reinvent the wheel you've got four or five stations set up you keep it lively everyone's sharp you know you do the plan before you go out you don't have to then spend too much time talking waiting around you know listening to them speak like what were the worst training sessions you did ones that would be like two plus hours long just dragging the ass out of it you stood around for ages you can get a bit cold because you're literally listening to so much information it's like information overload like you want for me as well like i suffered with my joints a lot in my career so like for me those short sharper sessions were definitely more beneficial than just being on my feet for hours on end you know who was the most nut Holloway by a mile and it was just his personality I remember my first game with him was I couldn't I couldn't play he didn't so we're playing Newcastle away at St James's Park and I couldn't they didn't do the registration moved in the January deadline day and they didn't do the registration quick enough for me to be eligible for that game but it was like I'm wanting to come you're on a plane to Newcastle so I got went to Heathrow flew to Newcastle joined up with the team in the hotel, had dinner, had pre-match meal with them.

1:13:20You're on the bus, come watch the game, sit behind the dugout. So I'm like, okay, cool. So I'm there and we're just literally like motoring from the Hilton to the stadium. He's the only voice I can hear. He's like shouting in the bus like, all right, lads, are we going to get up for this game or what? And as we're driving to the ground, he's literally at the front of the bus, you know, like the huge window going, come on, come on. like shouting like that to everyone else to don't to back into the bus no to the front to the fans that were waiting at the stadium all the lads behind were like oh my god and the players like yeah found it hilarious yeah and then like he would dance i got some funny videos on my phone of him dancing in the dressing room like before games but it chilled you out i guess if you saw the manager being that eccentric although it was just so every day was a story do you know what i mean like some like you'd be out doing training one day you're just getting going and they'd be like right lads we're going bowling like you just stop and you we'd go temp in bowling or just randomly i was chatting to an arsenal player the other day and he said that um wanger was the best because wanger would take each player aside before every game and say i had a dream last night and in the dream it was it was your best game and he'd take me aside before we got on the bus and then And he'd take the other person aside after the bus and the other one before the dressing room.

1:14:45And everyone felt that it was their game. And it was specifically, I had a dream about you. And he did it with everyone he chose. I think that's often the case with good managers. It's not necessarily the repetitive nature of the behavior you're saying there, but it's like the ability to be a bit of a chameleon in the dressing room and understand what gets people going. For me, I always responded well to someone that I was intimidated by. element of fear like play because otherwise there might be a consequence i wasn't i didn't need an arm around my shoulder i didn't need someone telling me you're amazing that you're so good which other players do need um the best managers were able to understand what you know who was the best manager you played against i'm going to be honest the most impressive i've seen is vincent company really why spoke every spoke multiple languages different players live in the game it's so impressive he'd speak German he'd speak Spanish he'd speak French it's so impressive to watch live yeah I was like wow and apparently his talks are nuts as well so yeah actually he gave me he gave me an hour of his time as well so when I did my MBA I'd found out that he had done an MBA at Manchester um so I spoke to him for an hour about the degree what I was setting myself up for why he did and he was yeah really what did you take away from that out just what a good guy he is but i obviously listen that the nooks and crannies of what i was getting myself into in you know time and time commitment and how that looked he owns a lot of companies and he wanted to really understand the inner mechanics of the way his businesses work not just like i'm my name's at the top of the tree here and everyone else is working for me like he wanted to understand Whereas my reasons were I kind of thought that the business of sport was my future.

1:16:38So, yeah, we spoke for ages, but no, he was a really, really cool guy. He had three kids, captain of his national team, European competitions, and captain of Man City. So he had a lot more on his plate than maybe I did. But no, really smart guy. Shall we do a quick fire round? Go for it. Okay, so tell me, which game were you most nervous before? God, this isn't quick, is it? they never are playoff games that have been involved when it's knockout and it's like promotions on the line definitely those games I would say second leg of a playoff game I've had a couple of those where yeah supremely nerve wracking in the sense that the outcome is all derived off this next 90 minutes more so than a cup competition I think playoffs just feel a bit different which club had the best food?

1:17:25Fulham really? Fulham definitely Fulham Fulham was unique. You could have chicken and veg for breakfast if you wanted, which I found odd. Did people? Yeah, Dan Bern. Had it every day. I always found it bizarre. You're going to get six foot, eight, seven. I always used to tell him every single morning when he had this leafy cabbage vegetable medley on his plate. Were players incredibly disciplined? Yeah, big time. That's the one thing I always thought is my curiosity when I played non-league was like, what are these higher league players like? What's the mentality like? You really quickly find out why they survive, why they have longevity when they're at that level for sure and it is like sheer discipline dedication sacrifice is like really in abundance i think the whole like talent isn't enough comment is so true um you know guys at the upper level they are really sacrificing and really dedicating and that really resonated with me as soon as i got to that level for sure what's the biggest sacrifice you made um time with my time i'd probably say just you know making sure i was doing all the right things and applied time to getting in the building early training doing my extra training after training eating the right things you know applying my time in a way that was benefiting me on the pitch and not you know going out all the time or eating things i shouldn't drinking things i shouldn't you know just not getting enough sleep i think my application to time was compounding one percent yeah totally big believe in the one percent and i think certainly at that level there's a real fine line between good and great and i think those one percent can really make a huge difference what's the most lavish purchase you spent on uh i think we all have that one car purchase i got porsche 911 turbo when i was at fulham that's probably my one were you happy when you got it oh yeah when they they had the um it was at the oh yeah this episode was brought to you by porsche it was at the porsche garage which is is that new bacchanalia restaurant you know in bartley square when i had the glass front and it was like they're waiting for me the glass door went and i just drove out into bartley square with it i absolutely loved it i loved that car just wrecked my knees and my back though so I chucked it in after about 18 months I was going to say how do you fit it it was actually a bit more roomy but yeah it was my one sports car experience it's an awful investment it's a big depreciating asset I lost a lot of money on that in the space of probably 18 months but you had fun in the space of about 5 seconds actually oh yeah just driving out but I had fun listen how much was it at the time 140 I think which was a lot of money it is a lot of money still for a car but yeah that was my probably my one were you married single don't be stupid you can tell he's not married definitely yeah i have a family no i was definitely not married um but yeah that was probably my one and i like a nice holiday so i've had a few nice holidays where i probably spent more than i should have but no generally what's the most batshit crazy thing you've seen someone spend money on in a team

1:20:39like probably reckless spending on nights out i would say probably like pound like pound for pound what's an awful how bad was that like 20 30k and maybe a night out yeah yeah silly money like i've seen i've yeah i've seen i've seen horror shows so i've seen like people like rock paper scissor over even bigger sums of money just for like nights out which i've that's a bit excessive for me what's it how do you do card roulette 20 30k on a night out a few bottles of champagne it's not it's not much nowadays i've seen some much worse pills i don't drink and i don't go out you can't drink that that much yeah it's more just but yeah it's just as you get vintage like it's just outrageous yeah it's just but it's just like a status game that's your status game at that point absolutely so you bring a few people onto your table and suddenly yeah if you're paying for it.

1:21:28That's so sad. Yeah. Not my cup of tea. Listen, I enjoy a night out as much as the next guy, but yeah, not to that. Will we see British sports stars open up to business in the same way that we've seen American? Yeah. I think we speak firsthand, like guys here definitely aspire to the success and status of those guys. and there's definitely an openness to guys really learning and understanding, which is really, really positive. I just think we're behind the curve. I think it will catch up in time. And I think the more people there are out there that are educating, providing access, providing resources for them to play that game, I think will only stand the guys in good stead.

1:22:18But I definitely think we will. And I definitely think there's a desire for guys to go in that direction. It's just about providing the means. It's amazing. As I said at the beginning, having this conversation has been pretty special considering it was one of the main reasons we thought about even starting something like this. Full circle moment for me as well. This is my entry point. And now retired and in this world now, it's definitely a full circle moment for me as well. And also, we have a lot of athletes listening. It's so important to hear this kind of stuff from someone that does it well.

1:22:51So thank you for sharing. Thank you, lads. Thank you so much to Matt for coming in finally and making the show that has been on the cards for years happen. This is a side of the football industry we don't see, from a third party maybe, but much of that is speculation and assumption. What it is really like to be a professional footballer and the realities of managing their situation not just while playing but also post-career is the great unspoken issue, I think. it is becoming more of a focus and hopefully conversations like this contribute to enhancing the opportunities for players beyond the game again a huge thanks to Matt for joining us and go and check out their amazing work at SQL if you're interested now if you want to see more from today's show you can do so by going to YouTube or any of our other social channels across Instagram and TikTok there are more snippets to share and bite-sized chunks to consume and whilst you're there please do like, subscribe and follow the show as you will hear from your other favourite pods I'm sure it makes a huge difference when bringing you the best guests and conversations from the world of sport which is of course our endless aim thank you again for tuning in and we'll see you next week did you know less than half of football transfers produce a return on investment I'd argue the reason for that is most sporting directors don't have the information they need as fast as they need it in a format they can understand sometimes transfers can feel like back when you had music on your iPod playlists on your computer, and mixed CDs in your car.

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