Making the Cut: Debuts, Doubt and Backing Yourself with Barrie McDermott, Adrian Morley & Shaun Lunt

13:10Barrie McDermott:I haven't recently, but I have watched it. And again, like I was saying, you're looking back and you can see. But again, looking back now, I'm 38 and I was 22 and still just a baby at that tender age. And yeah, like I say, it fills me a lot of pride and a lot of encouragement of what I achieved then to take in my later life.

13:32Adrian Morley:We talk about the imposter syndrome. did you sit down in the changing rooms and almost get a feeling of being a fraud? No, not at first.

13:41Barrie McDermott:It was quite surreal at first because I'd worked so hard. And I can remember that pre-season going into the 2009 season. I've just, I worked my nuts off. You know, I was fitter than everyone. So I thought I deserved to be there, not in an arrogant way, that I'd earned the spot, you know, through hard work. It wasn't until later on in my career when, you know, I started losing that form a little bit. But that's when that self, the imposter syndrome kicked in and I really doubted myself. And that's when I really had to look at myself and sort of adapt my game. I was getting slower, putting a little bit more weight.

14:16Barrie McDermott:So that was when the sort of the thoughts of that,

14:20Adrian Morley:the doubt kicked in. We've got two different versions here because you're 22 and you've worked steadily up to the point where you've got the debut. You almost got it by accident, didn't you? As a young kid in the right place at the right time with a bit of potential and you got to sit in the changing rooms and you're looking around. Did you have that sense of fraud?

14:40Shaun Lunt:Very much so, yeah. If you can imagine, Errol Lianley was my hero growing up and then next minute I'm packing down with him. It was a very surreal moment, but they had a pretty star-studded team back in the day. Kevin Iroh, Craig Innes, Gary Schofield. Again, I looked up to all these guys, so I'm thinking, what am I doing here? well I played three games the 94-95 season I played three games and then there was a bit of a break and then there was a centenary season so it was a shortened season

15:10Adrian Morley:you signed some good players in the centenary season Leeds

15:12Shaun Lunt:they did and they also signed yourself I didn't yeah but that centenary season I started they could have four subs then which was great for basically playing and they were playing two games a week sometimes because it was a shortened season and again I'm going to get found out here you know I'm not good enough at this level probably played at 8 first team games and Dean Bell dropped me back into the A team I don't know if it it started with just saying you know you're you're not playing as well as the World Lights and that game back in the A team that was when the penny dropped for me I was thinking I don't deserve to be playing the A team I wasn't arrogant but I just thought the 8 games I just played I felt as though I'd done enough so I was a bit peed off with Dean Bell but that's the coach he's a job at the end of the day played really well in the A team and got a recall the week after and then since the week after since playing that's when that's when the penny dropped and think right I'm here now for the long haul and my performances improved dramatically then And did you ever suffer

16:19Adrian Morley:from the fear of being found out and if so how did that affect your game

16:24Barrie McDermott:and your approach? Yeah again sort of later on you know because when you're young you're playing you've got no you know there are no cares in the world and then actually you cement your place and then you've got to keep it and that's when like that self-doubt kicks in and you're like oh people start reading your game they start you know when you score and try something we have you're not scoring them because they're watching you and and that really affected you because that's when you sort of sink or swim so you really need to you know dig down and alter your game and really have that self-belief and you know talk that inner

16:52Adrian Morley:yourself you know doubt out i found that it was like a game of snakes and ladders i usually have to explain snakes and ladders to the kids today but it but it's a case of you know two steps three steps four steps forward and then occasionally a step backwards and going back into the a team and just reassessing because you make mistakes but if you stick to your task you will find out that you belong in that first team you belong in that environment and you can contribute on a regular basis so we've covered off club rugby what about international rugby obviously it's a prestigious piece of information how did you first get notified most um it was a phone call but the

17:33Shaun Lunt:week before i made me debut for england uh i went over to france with the great britain academy we played the curtain raiser for wales against france anyway i scored a hat-trick uh never scored at-trick in my international career or my full career but Phil Lowe was the actual current England and Great Britain team manager for one reason or other he was the manager for the Great Britain Academy so he'd come over with us and I'm sure to this day that he went back and said to Phil Larder, this lad Adrian can play scored at-trick over there the following week that's when England played France in the next one of the the Tri-Nations, and I got a call up.

18:16Shaun Lunt:So when as a kid, I was 19 at this point, 96 it was, come off the bench for my debut for England. But just getting that phone call, amazing. Growing up, you know, it doesn't differentiate Great Britain and England for the importance for me. It's representing your country. But growing up, you know, them Great Britain games against the Aussies, I dreamed of playing for my country and did get the chance in 96.

18:44Adrian Morley:And again, two different journeys here, but both as valuable as one another. You had to work incredibly hard for a long period of time to get your international recognition.

18:53Barrie McDermott:Yeah, so I was so shocked because I was actually, when the 2010 season, I was actually playing second row. And I got called up into, if you can remember, we had a mid-season test against France. I played at Leigh Sports Village. So I got brought into the squad, but I didn't play. Me and Kev Brown got brought into the squad. Kev played, I didn't. so I was on the fringes and there and thereabouts and I was carrying an injury that year I had um I had a I subsequently had an operation on my groins at the end of the season and England were playing Cumbria in the uh in the Gary Purden memorial match to raise some puns for Gary um and I was in two minds whether to play or not and I phoned Jimmy Jimmy Lowe's he was the assistant coach and very close with Jimmy and I said Jimmy I said I want to play because I want to you know get in the squad but at the same time I don't want to aggravate my groins and not you know get out by um by injury so I took the decision to not play so I went up with my wife girlfriend at the time and we drove up and we went to Whitehead and we watched the game and I was driving back on the A66 and I can still remember my phone rang and it was a number that I didn't know and I answered it and it was Steve McNamara and he told me that I was in and honestly I was it was I'm surprised I crashed coming down i remember the exact part on the a66 when i was driving my missus was absolutely like she was screaming shout and it was yeah it was such a surreal moment that one like i'll never forget that moment and who was your next phone call to my dad yeah my dad he's like i said my dad's why i'm here now why i made it on the pitch i've got everything to thank him for so he was the first phone call and then and then it was my brother and then my mom and then everyone else in

20:34Adrian Morley:the family it's such a proud time for your family isn't it because you don't just get validated for the work that you've done it's everyone else who's supported you yeah exactly you don't realize that

20:44Barrie McDermott:again what what your wife and what your family goes through do you know again rugby league's such an up and down sport you know you win one week you're on top of the world you lose the next week you're a grumpy get all week and they've got to take the flack for that and they've got to see your ups and your downs they're the ones that look after you when you get injured and so for me it was again me personally got the accolade but it was like I say from when I was you know my dad drove me to St. Helens every day, training at, you know, every day, down two hours there, two hours back every day. So all them little bits that, all them little effort bits there, they all do mount up.

21:17Barrie McDermott:And yeah, it was, again, it was relief. And, you know, I got to the pinnacle of the sport.

21:24Adrian Morley:Do you want me to tell you how I found out my international call-up? Go on then. CFAX.

21:30Shaun Lunt:You won't even know what that is, will you? I don't know what CFAX is, mate.

21:33Adrian Morley:Explain. The baby doesn't. Yeah, the baby.

21:35Shaun Lunt:it? Well it was the TV you know before It was like the internet weren't it? Yeah Teletext, CFAX and all that yeah so all the news was on there so before before computers

21:47Barrie McDermott:Was it in colour or black and white?

21:48Adrian Morley:Yeah it was but it was obviously it was graphics It was graphics weren't it? There was probably some bloke typing it out because you had to wait for it to refresh and yeah I can't remember how I then got home I don't know who gave me the information got home switched to telly and put the CFAX on and there it was, B-Mac Dermott. I was at Wigan, I'd played against Australia for Wigan and had a memorable game in many ways, but then got suspended for a gross act of thuggery. Paul Cernan viciously threw his head at my elbow. But then I thought, probably that's, and I was nowhere near the scene anyway, I probably thought that's my ambition.

22:31Adrian Morley:I might hopefully make an appearance somewhere later down the track, but Ellery, in his wisdom, chose to bring me in. I got a phone call shortly after I'd spotted on CFAX, but I'm telling you, there was disbelief for me because I'm thinking, how are these events all linked together? And I think they were, because Ellery's had a look at the TV and thought he's scared of nobody, this fella. Didn't realise I was scared of everybody, but it was an amazing time of my life because those mad exposures to elite test football, test rugby league were incredible. And my debut was at Wembley. Jonathan Davis scored a magnificent try in the corner.

23:13Adrian Morley:Sean Edwards got sent off. I played 60 minutes of international rugby league, having been exposed to nothing like it before that. And the inferiority complex, the imposter syndrome, home the fraud feeling were were rippling it was like one after another after another but because it was so intense I didn't have time to think about it but brilliant times but also times where you start to discover who you are and what you've got in your locker and in your character yeah

23:43Barrie McDermott:definitely um like I said when when I represented we we played Australia in Australia and I could always remember Sam Fidei just running towards me and he was just bouncing was like the predator are coming towards me and I thought wow and I can still see that now and the only downside was that the great side was in Australia against Australia but the downside it was in Australia against Australia because my family weren't there so there's just me so I had some friends over there that were over there at the time so but yeah I can always remember them all watching and like phoning me after the game and just yeah it's really it's good to see that how happy that you can make up with people as well you know your family and again that they're all encouraging year and you know they they understand your dream that what you're wanting since a kid and they've seen you go and do it and it's something again like i say it gives me goosebumps just thinking

24:31Adrian Morley:about brilliant because all three of us whenever we start to talk about it there's a smile and there's a memory yeah everyone's lighting up aren't they what about you moz yeah well uh when i did make the england squad uh i was only in and out one game they played another game the following

24:46Shaun Lunt:week against wales and i i got dropped for that one but i wasn't bothered i'd already done it but My good friend Nathan McAvoy, who I grew up playing amateur with, he got a call up for England the following week. My brother was playing for Wales, so we made the long trip down to Cardiff to watch this game. I was made up for him, but at the end of that year, there was a Great Britain tour down under. And even though I had played one game for England, I thought the tours are distant.

25:15Adrian Morley:Another three or four levels. Exactly, yeah.

25:17Shaun Lunt:I didn't think I was going to make that. and again, instead of getting a phone call, I got a letter this time saying you've been selected and that meant more to me than anything. When you're a British lion, a tourist, it's unbelievable.

25:34Adrian Morley:International rugby is obviously the highlight and it's the peak and for many of us, it's that validation we get on an international stage. There's always a celebration, sometimes it's with your friends and it's funny you talk about being on your own. sometimes you want the nearest and dearest to just be there, just to take part in that moment and celebrate at the side of you, don't you?

25:57Barrie McDermott:Yeah, definitely. Like I said, I've just achieved the pinnacle in rugby league and the people that you want to enjoy it with is your family that's helped you get there. But again, it's something that I'm so proud of. You know, my son's got my shirt on his wall above his bed. So every time I go in the morning to wake him up, I see it there and I've got my cap downstairs. theirs and it's like i say it's it's something that's it's still surreal to this day to think because i've watched like say you guys play what looked up to you as usable players so i don't see myself as like you know because obviously you're all my heroes growing up and stuff like that so for me to just to sit there and have a moment and say i actually did it what about you mom well it

26:36Shaun Lunt:was a bit similar to club rugby where i toured played for england once toured with great britain down under but I didn't feel as always part of it really you know because I come off the bench and midweek games that kind of thing we went to the following year 97 when I got picked for Great Britain it was a home series against the Aussies against the Super League Aussies we played the first test at Wembley I come off the bench again played well and then I actually got start the following week at Old Trafford against these Aussies and I played the game played well and we actually beat the Aussies because it was at Old Trafford, being a Salford lad and a Man United fan, it was extra special.

27:18Shaun Lunt:You mentioned your family there. I remember it to this day, coming in players bar, mum and dad were there and they'd just come over, give us a big hug and we'd just beat the Aussies and pretty tough to beat them, their memories really.

27:31Adrian Morley:What advice would you give younger players? Anybody chasing a dream? Anybody doubting themselves?

27:37Barrie McDermott:For me, it's literally hard work. Put in the hard work. don't worry about anyone else yeah there might be people more skilful than you there might be people ahead of you at that time but if you don't give up and you keep working hard you will get the fruits of your labour don't be scared to make goals

27:52Shaun Lunt:you know if you get signed as a professional I want to make the A team you know from the academy make the A team I want to make first team when you make first team I want to play international the higher you set your goals the more likely you are to achieve them and I couldn't agree with Lunter there's no substitute for hard work get the hard work done set the goals see where it takes you

28:18Adrian Morley:proud moments outstanding milestones some really good stuff I'm happy with that lads I want to finish off with comparisons club rugby you play against people week in week out you have an instant dislike or they play for an opposition team or they're in your position on the field but who did you find when you went into them elite environments that you didn't expect to get on with them, but you ended up spending a lot of time and gaining a friendship with them. I'll start with you, aren't you?

28:45Barrie McDermott:For me, I always admired this person, but disliked playing against him. I wouldn't say I disliked him, but the way he played was just so tough and hard. It was Sean O 'Loughlin at Wigan, especially that 2010 season where they just absolutely dominated, dominated the league and the way they played, they were just aggressive, angry, you know, they really put you to it. Every time you played them, you came off the field and you'd known you'd been in a game. And I was fortunate to room with Lockers the first week in camp when we went to Australia. And he's one of the nicest blokes you'll ever come across.

29:18Barrie McDermott:And it just, it changed my whole perception of him. And again, I'm very fortunate to play with him, but, and very fortunate to play against him.

29:27Shaun Lunt:Well, the nature of rugby league is you have got your rivals, you know, same positions and all that. And going into camp, before you go to camp, you've got a pretty strong dislike for these guys. but the beauty of international camp is everyone's teammates, you've got to be best mates when you go in. So I was fortunate. I was second row at the time, but Paul Scurthorpe, even though he was a little bit younger than me, I really looked up to Scully because he was on the scene even before me as a 16-year-old. He was a bit of a prodigy as a kid, but he had all the skills. He was fantastic. So as much as the rivalry was there, we always got on great.

30:05Shaun Lunt:I want to mention as well, Dennis Betts. so he was my first tour

30:10Adrian Morley:what was your nickname for him?

30:12Shaun Lunt:Lionhead Lionhead that's it yeah so he looked like the Great Britain badge he did but he was he was from Salford same position as me and when I toured in New Zealand he really did look out for me he took me to his house and you know as a 19 year old imagine saying help yourself do some training gear then a little scruff from Salford I certainly did help myself but but he was great and we always got on great. I actually caught up with him at the grand final and we had an embrace. Yeah, so Betsy was great, but again, it's hard to dislike. There's not many people you don't like in international camps and the second row was a bit of a club really.

30:55Shaun Lunt:We all got on great. Chris Jones, another one, he was fantastic.

30:59Adrian Morley:I'm going to keep the Wigan theme up here because you picked Sean O 'Loughlin, great lad, fierce competitor. You picked Dennis Betts. I didn't like Andy Farrell until I arrived in the same team as him I could not think of anybody that was, you know he could out fight you, he could out work you he had better skills, he had a kicking game he could convert tries so he's a bit younger than me I didn't like him because he had all the talent I'm an olderness so Oldham and Wigan, you know, we were always always fighting as a little town against a big town in town team or whatever was going on So I always sort of looked at Faz and thought he represents that Wigan elite mentality.

31:39Adrian Morley:But when I joined Wigan and then when I played with him internationally, I aligned myself with him because he had great habits. You know, he did what he said he was going to do. You can tell me what he's done with rugby union. And a good mate of ours, JP, has said that he's the best rugby from both courts, convert there's ever been. And, you know, when you look at people like Jason Robinson and all the achievements and accolades, I think it's hard to argue against Fazz and his impact on people around him. And he was one of those cultural architects that you could not do anything other than fall in line with him because if you didn't fall in line with him, you found yourself stood on your own more often than not.

32:21Adrian Morley:So I'd probably put Andy Farrell in that bracket. Yeah, agreed. So how do we wrap that up for our viewers there? Don't judge a book by its cover.

32:30Shaun Lunt:No, don't judge a book by its cover.

32:32Adrian Morley:And just because, like you said, you had a dislike for him only because he was fantastic. He was great.

32:38Shaun Lunt:Everything. So don't have a jealousy. Have more than an admiration rather than anything else. And then I'm the same as you, Baz. When I watched him go about his business in international camps, he can't help but be impressed. He was another level one, he was. Yeah, so if you can surround yourself by people like that, their habits will rub off on you and you'll go far.

33:01Adrian Morley:And something you said about choosing your circle of friends really wisely.

33:04Barrie McDermott:Yeah, definitely. Obviously they've got, they're the people that you spend most time with. So you've got to select them very wisely. And again, you want to rub off on each other the right way, you know, not the wrong way. So if you surround yourself with positive people with the same drive, and again, just what Moz was saying there, the jealousy, a lot of people have a jealousy these days and it shouldn't be, it should be admiration, you know, So I admire what they do and try to take a little bit from what they do and put it into you. Some real legends there, love it.

33:32Adrian Morley:Some great stories, some stories, best left in the changing rooms. Let's go through the takeaways now. First one, how did you approach failure?

33:42Shaun Lunt:Don't be scared of failure. I've mentioned before about setting goals. If you set goals that are too low, it's not worth achieving them, are they? So set your goals high. If you do fail, try again. just keep with it and you know working hard will ultimately get you that goal yeah

34:01Barrie McDermott:failure we're going to fail at any time it's part of the process just pick yourself up and keep going and chasing that dream needs a team it's not just about you as an individual no exactly and we spoke about it doing other people around you doing your family your kids your parents you know your friends that you keep around you the team that you're playing in you've got to keep going and keep working hard for each other

34:21Adrian Morley:and it's not just you that succeeds and fails

34:24Shaun Lunt:No, you're right. It's your family. I mean, teammates, coaches, everyone to do with team sport is in this journey together. So you win together, you lose together. But the main thing is you're together. And how did you cope with that doubting, that nagging in the back of your mind? Well, every new experience, whether that be in sport or in business, is daunting. And you're going to have these doubts. You're going to have a sense of, am I in the right place? you know am I worthy here you've just got to think is my preparation right have I done put enough work into to get where I am and more often than not that the case will be a yes and then um yeah you shouldn't have any doubts and the more you're spending these new experiences uh the more

35:08Barrie McDermott:you feel at home yeah myself coming up against doubts it's it's not listening to to people around you do not have that you know outside influence on you and if you quit well you'll you'll never you'll never succeed in life you know the only way you can keep going is just to to keep pushing yourself getting uncomfortable being being comfortable in them uncomfortable situations

35:28Adrian Morley:and all the topics that we're covering here are going to forge that resilience in your character

35:33Barrie McDermott:yeah exactly and that's that's what you're all about you know we're all going to fail at some point but if you never quit you'll never lose you know you just find a way of how not to do it and you just got to keep going keep working hard and believe in yourself and one day you will get that that door where you keep knocking on that door and that door will open

35:49Shaun Lunt:yeah don't be scared don't be scared of failing some of the best business minds in the world have failed under the time some of the best sports people in the world fail at training fail in games but they just keep that persistence and you're right with the resilience and then you'll you'll get them goals

36:06Adrian Morley:okay that's it lads another episode wrapped up great chat great insight who do you think handled their call up better me or you two I think you Baz

36:17Shaun Lunt:because you should have been banned when you got called up so you were very lucky to get called up but no the way you performed with no experience I remember watching that as a kid and yeah you did us proud that's not the answer

36:30Adrian Morley:I was expecting I was expecting abuse but thank you

36:33Barrie McDermott:I don't think I was born so I can't

36:35Adrian Morley:blow blow on that note that's it from Cheer Team Rooms brought to you by our good friends that are like Don't forget to like and subscribe and we'll see you next time.