Life After Rugby: Morley, Lunt & McDermott on Identity, Change and Starting Again

12:37Barrie McDermott:Yeah, just going on that, if you retired too early, you've still got that itch that you want to scratch, don't you?

12:41Adrian Morley:And what age were you, 31? I was 32. 32. 32, so I'm looking. You were 37. 38. 38, sorry, yeah. What about you? 34 I was. I was absolutely shot to bits and strapped up injections. I was, my body had let me down, but I still thought I could do a bit more until I'd made the decision or had it made for me. I did my last year here and then did like a short three or four month block with Widness. I still thought it was all right until I stopped. And then not the adrenaline, because the adrenaline only spikes for so long, but whilst you're used to managing pain, being in pain, compensating, once I'd got over the fact that I didn't have to mentally and emotionally get myself ready for the weekend, it's like, yeah, I probably needed to stop anyway.

13:32Adrian Morley:But they reckon, don't you? You're the last one to know, aren't you? You're the last one to realise. Everyone can see it.

13:37Barrie McDermott:A lot of times. A lot of people, well, certainly for me, I was only playing for the money. I didn't have anything else to fall back on. So I was thinking, I'm retiring, I've got two kids, I've got a wife, I've got to provide for, I've got bills to pay. that's why I was playing. Like I said, I've never missed a game in playing because, again, that's what I didn't miss is the soreness waking up after the game. I do. The sleepless nights.

13:59Adrian Morley:I still miss that now.

14:00Barrie McDermott:Yeah, no. It's probably why I look a lot better than you, don't you? Well, that's right. We'll not have a teeth competition, shall we? I think I've already won that. Because Muzzle lose, I'm staying. Yeah, exactly, yeah.

14:09Adrian Morley:There's two avenues I want to explore. One is the identity, as in both of you would have been Adrian or Sean, the rugby player, and then that loss of identity. But aligned to that is the loss of structure. So being told what to do, what to wear, what time to be there and having your full week mapped out. And for lads who grew up in a northern house and a working class mentality, you're free then at weekends when you've denied yourself the chance to go out with your mates and have a drink and enjoy what life and socialising is about. And then suddenly to be let off the lead, Moz, what was that like?

14:53Adrian Morley:So again, there's a couple of things there. So the loss of structure, the loss of identity, and then where was your mentality and discipline within that?

15:01Shaun Lunt:Well, we go back a long way. But as a youngster, I used to love going out and that was my thing. But we coincided with having kids. My wild days were gone, really. So at this point when I retired, I've got three kids and I still used to like a drink, but there were a few and far between then.

15:20Adrian Morley:So you thought to yourself, instead of that's it, I'm off, I'm like a dog off a lead, I'm just going to dedicate myself to the rhythm of the home and the kids.

15:29Shaun Lunt:Yeah, yeah. I mean, luckily I was still employed in rugby league, although not playing, so I was quite happy to go back to business. But family took over me, you know, that was my focus really. I remember the first year I weren't playing, we booked to go away at Easter. I'd never been away at Easter in my life, and I just couldn't believe it. It's a fantastic life being a professional rugby league player, but you do have to sacrifice a lot, and there's certain things you can't do, which the normal man just takes for granted. So I was happy to be on Civvy Street and just live a normal life. Loss of structure, loss of identity, was something that affected you?

16:10Barrie McDermott:So for me, for the structure, I thought I wanted, I was looking forward to not having the structure, thinking that I needed it. But as you all know, being in that rugby circle, you sort of become institutionalized to rugby and all you know is rugby. And then when I saw it, like you were saying about that, I was let off the leash and I didn't have nobody telling me what to do, what time I was there. That's when sort of my head imploded because I didn't have to be anywhere at a certain time. I didn't have no one telling me what to do. And I was like, all of a sudden I'm a grown man and I've got to make my own decisions now.

16:40Barrie McDermott:And that was probably the hardest part, you know, because again, when you're in a rugby team, you've got people around you, you know, people are making the decisions for you. So you can sort of take the cowardly out and say, well, that was wrong because you made that decision. But when it's your own and you've got the autonomy of it all on yourself, that's when, you know, it plays on you, that stress was to play on you. So for me, I need structure in my life. I still need it today, you know, and it's implementing that structure in my life. And the identity, and I'm not just saying it, but for me, I don't look at myself as I was a big star.

17:14Barrie McDermott:You know, I've always admired like Mo's yourself, Kieran Cunningham as your poor school folks. In my eyes, they're the ones that are the superstars. And for me, I was just that little kid from Cockermouth that used to be a plumber that managed to achieve all of his dreams and very fortunate. So for me, I never looked at myself as that identity. So the identity didn't bother me, but it was that structure of getting up, doing stuff.

17:39Adrian Morley:I want to just talk about transition now. So I always describe it as snakes and ladders, but I have to be careful because the kids look at you and go, what are snakes and ladders? You're going up, aren't you? You're getting to the top of your tree, as in you were an exceptional rugby league player, good professional, somebody who was valued in the changing rooms. So the bottom, you go down a snake and then you're in Civvy Street and you've got a couple of different choices, haven't you? You've got to educate yourself, which means you've got to ask, which isn't always easy for us, or you just go and do a manual labouring job that gets paid, whatever, 12 quid an hour and everybody sees that as a failure.

18:21Adrian Morley:Which route did you take?

18:23Barrie McDermott:Like I said before, the wife going through COVID, because I was playing games all the time and she said, you're getting a job. So her brother was working in childcare at the time and there was an opening as a night worker. So I worked through the night. So I took that and it was absolutely brilliant. That sort of got me back on track. I was working with kids, vulnerable kids. They didn't have no structure. So again, I took what I've learned in rugby, good morals, good positive outlook, and I started channeling into them and working with those guys. So I went into the childcare industry for probably about two years after I played and I learned a lot about obviously a lot about working with vulnerable kids but also a lot about myself as well and just how much I'd sort of struggled through What was the biggest challenge

19:11Adrian Morley:for you do you reckon?

19:12Barrie McDermott:For me was it was getting to know myself I was hiding behind that rugby player for so long and then all of a sudden I'm not a rugby player and then I'm learning about all these kids and I'm like wow I'm doing this I've been doing that and you're sort of getting to know yourself and again talking about that re-education is that I had to re-educate myself and doing something new. I was taking diplomas and stuff like that that I never got taught about. So it was a really tough one. And again, in a world full of people, it's a lonely place at times. You know, I didn't have anyone to turn to. It was just myself.

19:45Adrian Morley:It's quite intimidating going back into a classroom. People will listen to this and think, you've got X amount of Super League games, you've got all these things that you've done and you've seen and you've achieved, but scary going back into a classroom. What were you like, Mozz?

20:00Shaun Lunt:Well, I was quite fortunate that I got a chance to stay in Rugby League. Like, not every player gets asked to stay, and there's not that many jobs at all. It's not a huge sport. But I stayed at Salford Red Devils, my hometown, on the commercial side now. It wasn't something I thought I'd go into, and I'm glad I did it. Everything I've done post-playing, I've learned something from it, and I've tried to better myself. And then I coached down here at the Rhinos, coached the academy. Under Brian McDermott, was that? Yes, coaching wasn't something I was ever aspired to be, but when I got an opportunity, I thought, I'll try it.

20:41Shaun Lunt:And I did. And, you know, there were certain parts of it I really enjoyed, so I did that for a year. And then I was a bit of a loose end, really. I didn't want to coach. I didn't want to be involved in rugby, really, in many capacities. but then my best mate he was running his recruitment company at the time and he asked me did I want to get involved he just said with your profile as an ex-rugby player I think you'd be good at business development so I tried that and again I really enjoyed it but being in an office environment because I'd never worked in that before it was exciting and I was like yeah I'm working in an office but yeah it was good it was different from what I was used to but something I quite enjoyed.

21:28Shaun Lunt:I'm going to ask you,

21:29Adrian Morley:last sort of question on this topic. What were the three things that you'd learned as a professional sportsman that you took into Civvy Street, you still have it in your repertoire now, that you think were the most helpful?

21:43Barrie McDermott:For me was, again, it's probably my morals, what I live by. I think rugby league is one of the, well, the toughest sport in the world. And I think if you can go out there and knock hell out of each other for 80 minutes and check someone's hand after the game and say well done and then you get on with it so my integrity um is massive my resilience going forward you know again there's times where like you say i'm playing in the middle against you big boppers in the middle and just relentless running it yeah and you just got to keep going no matter

22:11Adrian Morley:what you got to keep going just by the way when you go like that just be clear that you never played against me that's why your nose is like that yeah and you've not no gaps in your teeth but anyway no that's because I went to Turkey

22:23Barrie McDermott:that man that's why I've got no gaps in my teeth well I ran at him plenty of times I went round him that's why

22:29Adrian Morley:Moss you've been to Turkey no no

22:33Shaun Lunt:naturally it's bad

22:34Adrian Morley:three things so I'll get your three before I give you mine

22:38Shaun Lunt:probably just one thing really and that's there's no substitute for hard work so as a player I knew I wasn't the most gifted you know weren't great at passing the ball kicker the ball but I knew what I was good at and that was the bashing the badge how can I be a great or better player so as to be as fit as I possibly can stronger as I possibly can and big as I possibly can so if you do that as a professional do that in your day job it'll take you far

23:06Adrian Morley:I think I've got three things and you might agree with these you might not I've got a complete lack of fear of failure and I think that comes down to whenever I trained I would often train with the best play. So if it was an agility, I'd grab Bud Burrow. If it was a strength session, I'd get big Wayne MacDonald. If it was a skills session or something that was added on, I'd spend time with Kev because he had that discipline to do it. Boxing, Dave Fern, I would literally go with the best at that. So I like failing to learn. I've got good timekeeping, Anna. You know that for somebody that's absent-minded with lots of things.

23:47Adrian Morley:I like to rest in position. and I think it comes from get back where you're supposed to be and then decide what you're doing. So I'm always get where you're supposed to be, then figure out what you've got to do. And then the last thing is I can take criticism. If I'm in the wrong or if somebody says, do you know what, I think I've got a better way, I'd accept that. What I found is when I offered that out in Civvy Street, it wasn't always accepted because if you point out what people are no good at, they're not really interested, are they? So them are the three things I like to sort of, just dwindle down and go, right, if I can stick to them, then there isn't much that phases me.

24:27Adrian Morley:So some really good stuff there, lads. I think we're going to come back, get you bits of advice for the audience, but it's time for a bit of fun. I thought we could talk about your most memorable game.

24:39Shaun Lunt:Start with you, Moz. Well, I've been fortunate enough to play in quite a few finals for my club sides, But for me, I think it's very special when you represent your country, whether that be England or Great Britain. It's always magical when you're lining up with 17 of the best players in the country and you sing the last anthem. It's pretty special. So it was down under when we played the Aussies in 2006 in the Tri-Nation. And it was against the Aussies. No one gives a chance. and we went out there and we won a famous victory against the star-studded kangaroos. My club coach, Ricky Stewart, he was coaching the kangaroos at the time, so we'd made it extra special.

25:23Shaun Lunt:And it was when Willie Mason had the infamous incident when he punched Stewart Field and then Jamie Peacock ran in and flattened him. But it was everything a test match should be. It was brutal. You couldn't get away with a lot of that stuff now. Aww. But, yeah, exactly. but it was yeah it was magical that's the last time an English side or a great British side has beat the Aussies so it was great to be involved in that Lunti?

25:50Barrie McDermott:For me I've got three I'm going to be greedy I've got three these are really impactful on my career so we've got the 2009 Challenge Cup final the year before I was at Workington so that the sort of rise from playing in Championship 1 to then going on the biggest stage of a Challenge Cup final start and I can remember walking out I was actually playing against Moz and yes, you did win. I know that. I do remember. And yeah, just coming out and it was, all I can describe is like the gladiator scene when it comes out into the Coliseum. It was, you know, it was a lovely hot day and it was a fantastic game, wasn't it?

26:25Barrie McDermott:And I scored, I got one disallowed. So it was, the memories for me individually for that game was massive. It was, I can always remember someone telling me, I can't remember who it was, but they said it goes like a flash that week leaning up to emberley you know going down there staying down there enjoying the whole atmosphere he says it's gone like that gone in a blink of an eye so he said take everything in when you go out have a look around at the stadium have a look and absorb everything and i can remember us when we're walking out we're getting led out and i was just like looking up and it was just amazing it was the atmosphere getting tingles and i just again this young boy at the pinnacle of his dream walking out and yeah we got unfortunately we got beat that day but for me or where i come from that was that was amazing that you know challenge cup final on tv everyone watching and then obviously the next game memorable for all different reasons and it's the million pound game when we got beat by salford so we we playing salford at home we were eight points up you're at whole care yeah whole care at the time we were eight points up and there was four minutes left on the clock and they managed to score in one corner, the score in the other corner and the level that they missed both kicks.

27:38Barrie McDermott:So we went into golden point. And again, just watching Gaz O 'Brien, he actually popped up on my feed the other day, him hitting that drop goal. And yeah, I remember him just hitting it, hit it so sweet. And he hit it that well. He hit it from his own 45 and it's probably landed in the home, but he hit it that well. And then he just, obviously, he set off running and stood there. Everyone's in disbelief. They're looking at each other. I've got my wife crying, kids crying, my brother just like looking at me like this. And then you've got fans running on, fighting. And that was pretty much like a movie scene.

28:14Barrie McDermott:It was something out of Walking Dead. And again, that was the last game of the season. So then that takes me on to - You win this next one. Yes. We're always going to finish on a positive, don't worry. So I've gone positive, negative, and then positive. And it was the following year, actually. So we were playing Witness Vikings at home, against the little Hulky R. So we spent a year in the championship after getting relegated and we were playing against Widdiness. And I could always remember because Gil Dudson had the ball and they were going, they were attacking our line and we were winning by two points.

28:46Barrie McDermott:And this time I should have pressured and I clocked off this time and he passed the ball out wide and they would have got us where Ryan Short intercepted and went full length and scored. And that put the game to bed. So I went from 12 months previous to absolute out, you know, all the negative emotions, the anguish, the anger, and then just went to total jubilation afterwards. I remember, again, this time my kid's coming on crying in happiness this time. So, yeah, so again, them three games have had a real pivotal part on me and why they're the most memorable ones. Yes, I've been very fortunate to win a grand final against Mo's.

29:26Barrie McDermott:Yeah.

29:27Adrian Morley:When I was thinking about the question, I was thinking, and I automatically, my brain went, excuse me, to the worst moment. I don't know whether you played in 2003, Moz. You did, actually, yes. Did you play in the second game? Yes, at home. I started. Yeah. There was a set of circumstances which meant I was one-on-one with Brett Kamali. I missed the tackle. Scored under the sticks. We lost the second test and it was a disaster. You cost us the first test. Well, debatable. So that was... You and Steve Ganson between you. And then I was around, I was culpable for the second test. So my mind automatically went to that.

30:06Adrian Morley:But you brought up a good point about Great Britain in 1994. Very similar to you, I think, Luntie. I was in a team where I was surrounded by people who were the best of the best. My heroes were on both sides. So the lads I was sat alongside and the lads I was sat against. and it was like an out-of-body experience. I was nervous, but that nervous energy just turned into excitement and determination. I started on the bench. I just wanted to get on the field. I just wanted to rip in. I was 22, I think. Yeah, 22, 94.

30:43Shaun Lunt:Because he'd come from nowhere. Because I'll be honest, I'd never heard about him playing at Oldham. And I thought, it was this guy. Anyway, I was pleased with what I saw because he brought a bit of aggression and confrontation.

30:56Adrian Morley:I didn't have a clue what to do. So Ellery Hanley, who was my coach, Ellery just put his arm around me and he says, I just need you to be as good as you can be today. Do what you're good at. He said, when you've got the ball, I want you to get the meters, play your ball quick, make some space and time for people outside you. When they've got the ball, just have some fun, Barry. Just get stuck in, which I obliged. And I enjoyed it. stuck in a bit so much inside and it's funny so two weeks before I played for Wigan and very very when I look at it now it's I don't regret anything but it was Syrenen yeah I think and I got locked up and I got sent to jail now and I've caught him but I got on the pitch and the first carry I've got I can see Paul Arrigan Paul Syrenen Glenn Lazarus in front of me I'm like there's no hiding here I'm just gonna have to get it out of the way and I ran as hard as I could and ended up going through the other side.

31:54Adrian Morley:So my boost was like, I can do this. I'm all right on this arena. So favourite game. I think yours is a special game. I think yours is a special game. You've got all those memories around it, but inevitably, you mentioned Rob, there's always a little moment that takes the edge off it. There's always a moment that brings a bit of humour to it. Sometimes it's dark humour. What's your funniest memory?

32:20Barrie McDermott:probably like i say funniest memory it was probably more more comical than than anything it was it was actually again going back to the 2012 grand final there was myself magsy callum watkins we were sat at the the coffee shop opposite the um the hotel where we're staying it was it was the morning of the grand final and we're all just sat there having a talk and magsy brought up about this guy that was giving him some stick on twitter and i was like is it such and such by any chance He was like, yeah. And I was like, oh my God. I said, I've had the same problem with him, right? So what happened was, signed here.

32:53Barrie McDermott:I played against Wigan down here and they were beating us. So I jumped out, tried to kick the ball over. Brett Finch is caught and scored. He's given me a load of crap after it, right? So as I do, I'm one for revenge. So I've sat on that. He's hammered me. And then later on in that year, we played Wigan at Huddersfield in the semifinal of the Challenge Cup and we beat them. so there's me chirping up against him giving him some some crap and yeah thought I got my own back all died down until these guys beat us in the Challenge Cup final again chirping away he got me back so I was just like I can't get away from him and then it was it was the semi-final of the of the grand final and we played Wigan at Wigan I can always remember it because I started at nine because Magsie got banned for that game and Rob and And Rob and Kev were six and seven.

33:45Barrie McDermott:So we beat them. And I got my phone out to about to bag him. And I was like, no, I can't do that. Keep that in your pocket, right? So put it back in my pocket, forgot about it. And then obviously a week later, we played these guys, beat them in the Challenge Cup and sent them a picture with me holding the trophy. And the caption, he who laughs, laughs, laughs along this. So that was my little soft. Did you find out who it was? It was actually a Cumbrian as well. Was it? Yeah. One of my mates, Lee Mossop, that used to live with. Oh, what is he? He knew of him. So, yeah, he was just a mouthy, a mouthy getter from Cumbria.

34:16Adrian Morley:Ignore keyboard warriors. Exactly, yeah. That's the advice, isn't it?

34:19Barrie McDermott:Well, that's what I learned. Yeah, I learned that, yeah.

34:22Adrian Morley:Yeah, and as well, another good piece of advice, don't engage with imbeciles because they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. That's what I got taught. So, Moz, I know you'll have loads of funny stories. You've played in some incredible teams, but always around big characters.

34:38Shaun Lunt:Yeah, big characters. Because, I mean, rugby league, it's quite an extreme sport played by extreme people. So a lot of the lads are quite daft, shall we say. But yeah, probably my favourite teammate was Terry Newton, really. As tough as he was, as good as a player he was, he was an out-and-out joker as well. But he knew when to flick the switch and be serious and he knew when to have a laugh. but my funniest story about Teddy was he didn't mean to be funny on this instance so we all used to get our mouth guards made at the start of the season I know this story you know the story and he didn't try it on during the weekend we got to the game so I seen Teddy messing about with his mouth guard it didn't fit and it just kept falling out and what he used to have was glue to spray on your hands and it helps you catch the ball, stops you knocking and anyhow, he went into the showers and I heard, and he heard, and he heard, and he had glue all around his mouth.

35:42Shaun Lunt:He sprayed glue in his mouth, I just said, it's all right now, we haven't been ready to play, but no one could warm up for laughing, but then we played the game, we got the win, but yeah, so that was his, that was his. Great lad, nasty. Nasty, yeah, yeah, got a bit of nastiness in him there, that lad.

36:00Adrian Morley:But I'd say, when you think about the game that's played now, he'd fit in the modern game, wouldn't he? Because he was smart and sharp.

36:06Shaun Lunt:Oh, he could do everything as tough and as ruthless as he was. And you're right, Nasta, he had so much skill and so tough as well. And 15 years, last week since we lost Terra, Solibus, great guy, best mate in the game.

36:29Adrian Morley:That was brilliant. I could do this all day, but I think it's time to wrap things up. We had a great chat earlier about retirement and transition. Let's go back to that and get some takeaways from the audience. Start with you, Moz. Was it a feeling of emptiness or freedom when you come to the end of your career?

36:46Shaun Lunt:It was freedom, really, Barry. As much as I loved my career, I wouldn't change anything. It was fantastic. But when it does come to an end, it's a relief. And it's just like, yeah, I don't have to train now. I don't have to play now. there's no pressure which we're all great don't get me wrong but you know at that stage and that time in my life I was happy to be free

37:08Barrie McDermott:Emptiness or freedom? Again freedom at first and then again we always moan you know moan what we don't have we complain about being told what to do when to be there but then I realised that I thrived from that you know getting up and doing nothing and playing there's only so much Call of Duty you can play until you get bored again and then you want you want that structure back in your life So for me, it was just really sort of a really awkward feeling. You know, I didn't know how to respond at times and whatnot. So, but now I've finally, I've got over that stage and now I'm working now and getting into the next chapter of my career and embracing it as well.

37:44Barrie McDermott:I'm looking at it like I did when I first started out as rugby, that it's a new chapter, a new beginning and cracking on.

37:50Adrian Morley:You put it on record that after that period, there was a transitional period, but there was a recognition that you needed to retrain, re-educate. What advice would you have for people who are looking at a change of jobs, a change of roles, they'd have to upskill or upgrade themselves to perhaps leaving school and going on to further or higher education? What advice would you give people?

38:13Shaun Lunt:Go into any new experience open-minded. Don't be blinkered and go in and attack it with a bit of gusto and a bit of enthusiasm. You know, we are fortunate, you know, having previous experience with rugby league, there's a lot of transferable skills in rugby league into the working life. So find out, search what you're good at, what your superpower is, and then just transfer that and try and apply that into your new role.

38:47Adrian Morley:Then lastly, what advice would you give to people who are transitioning? Because this has all been about transitioning from a player to the working environment. It might be somebody that's leaving school, not doing A-levels, going on to an apprenticeship, reached a certain level, but needs to go back in and upskill and upgrade themselves and educate themselves. What advice would you give people listening on that regard?

39:10Barrie McDermott:I think it's okay to be scared of that challenge. It's a daunting challenge. It is. I've been there myself. It's just embracing being comfortable in an uncomfortable situation. That's when we learned through hard times that's when we grow and if you can flip your mindset around it you know the glass is half full rather than half empty and embrace it and really challenge yourself to grow and just apply that to something new and enjoy and you know what you might just like it too.

39:37Adrian Morley:Mors you've had to do something similar transitioning from a player to an environment at Salford in a management role and then coming to be a coach and then with the jobs and roles that you've got now what's your advice to people who have a challenge around education, upskilling or upgrading themselves. And let's be honest, when they're in an environment where they're a little bit intimidated and they may be hesitant in asking questions.

40:03Shaun Lunt:Yeah, so go into any experience with an open mind. Me old coach Dean Bell used to say, I don't believe in luck, but the harder you work, the luckier you get. And I always stuck with that. That's why I always worked really hard. So my advice is work hard and see how far that gets you, whether that's training, playing, or any different role. Work hard and see how far it gets you.

40:26Adrian Morley:Some really good stuff there, lads. And I'd only probably ask that never be afraid to ask a question. And ultimately, if you go at it with an energy, a passion, and a drive and an enthusiasm, I think people will recognise that and want to help you along your way. It's been a pleasure to dig into some big topics today. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your honesty. We'll do it again sometime soon, eh? We certainly will, Baz. Definitely. So if you're watching or listening, subscribe or like or whatever tickles your fancy.