The Coaches Who Shaped Us: Feedback, Mentors and Growing Under Pressure with Barrie McDermott, Adrian Morley & Shaun Lunt

13:38Shaun Lunt:Teacher's pet all the time. How annoying. I will say, though, I've never been coached by a coach who's an out-and-out duffer. I've took something from every single coach I've had throughout my 20-year career. Some are better than others, sure, but I've took something from virtually every coach. Everyone's got an accolade, what they can do really well. Probably the best all-round coach I had was Tony Smith probably. He was very, very good. But as I say, Ricky Stewart, Graham Murray, took little bits from all of them.

14:11Adrian Morley:When you understand yourself now and you reflect back on times, young, medium, and then at the back end of your career, what do you think you reacted best to? The arm round or the kick up the backside?

14:22Barrie McDermott:I was definitely the arms round person. I'm a pleaser at heart. So I like to please people. And I used to struggle with that. again talking about you know resilience and I was very sort of my emotion I wasn't very mature emotionally you know so I didn't take criticism very well at the start I used to think you know and and now that I coach myself in amateur you realize when you say something you've got to be very careful in what you say because you've got to choose your words because on that that field or you know it could be just that heat of a moment one thing like you say don't kick again or something like that that means the world to that person so you've got to be very cautious in what you say because depending on how that person will receive it and then kick on, like I used to go to Michelle and then if I got a good bollocking, I wouldn't try and do it again.

15:10Barrie McDermott:Do you know what I say? If I tried to do a kick and it went out on the full, well, you've got to do it again. What we talked about, making mistakes, don't be scared to make mistakes, where I was too scared at times and I wouldn't try again. So, yeah, I was definitely, you had to put your arm around me, definitely.

15:23Adrian Morley:Sometimes it's a bollocking, sometimes it's filling you full of that belief. Which one did you prefer, do you think?

15:29Shaun Lunt:probably filling you full of belief really so I was quite fortunate I didn't get many many bollockings personally it was all the team the team got a few bollockings and I was part of that team so I felt I felt a part of it but even like you mentioned Graham Murray get fired up for the game too fired up that's still the fastest send off in Super League it's 90 seconds that one by the way so not that I'm smirking and I'm proud of it but after the game instead of it's a bit of a theme for you this isn't it against St. Alphard's second. And he is smirking. And he is proud of it. Well, yeah. But instead of ripping into me, I told you, but then he was like, I know I told you to do this, however, you can go about it better and explain it rather than firing straight in.

16:15Shaun Lunt:So, yeah, it was probably an arm round type of player.

16:19Adrian Morley:I think because I've come from a northern working class family, Catholic upbringing, there weren't too many, not encouragement, that's wrong, There weren't too many times where it was, you know, well done. And I don't seek that. I don't feel I react best to that. I react to people doubting. And that, you know, it can be a bollocking. It's that challenge. I'll show you. And I felt like Graeme Murray did that with me. Because if you remember 98, I was coming back off an injury. I ended up at Bramley on loan and then worked my way back into the team. 99 was one of my best years. and then every coach I ever had at some point put that challenge to me, put that element of doubt in my mind.

17:01Adrian Morley:I was like, right, I've got the bit between my teeth now and that's the point where I was at my best. And the best coaches that we've had in terms of winning things, you end up, you get a bond, you get a relationship and you maintain that and I'm really lucky, a guy called Steve O 'Neill who coached me at Ireland, I still speak to him all the time. We go away every year in December, a big gang of us and we have a few Guinnesses together and, you know, and just catch up and I'm still in touch with that. Is there any of your coaches you still keep in touch with?

17:31Shaun Lunt:Yeah, yeah. I was over in Australia recently. I went out, had a drive to Canberra to see Ricky Stewart. While I was out in Australia, Paul Cullen's lad, he's working for the Roosters. So I had text called off my phone saying, oh, it'll be good to catch up when I do come back. I caught up with Tony Smith about two months ago. So, yeah, it's great that you have that relationship, not with just your old teammates, but your coaches as well. They're all part of it, aren't they?

17:59Barrie McDermott:Yeah, I developed a close bond with our strength and conditioner at the time. So Nathan Brown came over and he brought over a guy called Mark Bumper Andrews. So Bumper, I actually lived with him for a little while, so he was waiting for his family to come over. So they'd come over in November and his family were coming over in January after Christmas. and I lived with Bumper for a couple of months and really close now to this day and we still keep in touch and speak regularly and always go to him for any advice. How did he get his nickname? Do you know what? I don't think he ever told us that.

18:31Shaun Lunt:Oh, right. It sounds like there's a story behind that, doesn't it? Yeah, totally.

18:35Barrie McDermott:Because like you say in rugby, second name, well, your nickname's either a Y or an O on the end of your surname. Yeah, yeah. So, no, I don't think he ever told us. You should find that one out, but you have to let us know.

18:47Adrian Morley:I'll have to report back in the next series, yeah. We've all coached and coached our sons, really, but we've all coached at different levels. What bits of your coaching style can you directly point back to some of those important people in your career?

19:02Barrie McDermott:So for me, again, Nathan, some of the plays that we do, they're sort of universal now in rugby league, the plays that he does. So I try to do that. But one of my favourite coaches, and I probably admire the most, actually, is Brian McDermott. He was, you know, he was a leader. You know when you talk about people that will go into war for you? And I can always remember the time at Wakefield when Gary came in and gave us all a spray after the game and Brian just stood there and said, that's not the time that. And I was just like, wow, a guy has just stood up in front of the CEO, the owner of the club and backed his players.

19:36And I think that we sort of, well, especially for me,

19:39Barrie McDermott:I was like, I'd run through a brick wall for him. And so Brian really had that nurture. And again, when you go play, I don't know whether you guys are the same but it was like it was your big brother you're in the schoolyard and you know you maybe going for a little a little fight and your big brother's there you feel better don't you and and Brian I always thought I had you know that big brother behind me backing me all the time is that what you try and do for your kids now your lads um yes I try to be you know the pillar the pillar of strength even when I'm nervous and I'm you know I'm scared myself I try and be that pillar of strength for them and I try to encourage them to like say Brian's very morally like sat like he's you know lives by his morals i can always remember playing like we never he never encouraged any dirty tricks or you know any of the dark arts rub it was all play fair like gentlemen and win he was a heavyweight boxing champion in the marines as well so when you're

20:31Shaun Lunt:saying i got my big brother behind him i could see why that'd give you confidence yeah exactly

20:34Barrie McDermott:and it always you know going out on that field you you know you had it like you had his back and he'd be stood there you know stirring and chewing his chewery gum and yeah i can always remember it and he had a really profound effect on me. And again, it's like what Moz was saying before about the coach, you take a little bit from each coach, Nathan Brown, like even Tim Sheen's, again, one of the coaching greats over in Australia, just the little tacticians and little bits. And again, nobody's the perfect coach, nobody's the perfect player, so you've got to take them little bits and implement them in my coaching role now.

21:08Shaun Lunt:Yeah, well, I coached here at the Rhinos in the academy I mean, I was quite big on not trying to play any games, just being honest with the players. If you had to drop him, I'd explain why and what they could do to try and get back in the team, but certainly wouldn't, as I say, play any silly mind games. So that's what I tried to implement.

21:31Adrian Morley:And was that off Graeme Murray, Ricky Stewart, or both?

21:34Shaun Lunt:It was off both, yeah. I think I did enjoy certain elements of the coaching, but certain pits I didn't really enjoy. But growing up as a player, I didn't really have aspirations to be a coach. So I'm glad I tried it, but it's not for me. And I know that and I was grateful for the opportunity. But yeah, that's it.

21:56Adrian Morley:Let's try and put it into the working environment now. Think about the best coaches. Think about the best bits of advice that have brought out the best in you. How do you think that transfers to the work environment? what makes a good mentor, leader, boss? Again, it's been understandable and knowing that person,

22:13Barrie McDermott:how you get the best out of that person. Again, whether it's in the boardroom, meeting room, or on the pitch, the same styles apply. You know, you might have someone that needs, again, like you said, that challenge, you know, put them down a peg or two, so come on then, like fight back up, or put your arm around them and say, come on, you're doing this wrong, let's work together and get better. So again, it's knowing the individual and not being judgmental and, you know, and actually living what you preach as well. A lot of people do as I say, not as I do. So for me, how I implement into my working role now is I try to lead by my actions.

22:51Adrian Morley:Yeah, because people see right through it. If what you're saying and what you're doing isn't congruent, they'll pull you straight away and go, well, why should I do it? He's not doing it.

23:00Shaun Lunt:So yeah, what about you, Moss? Well, we've mentioned I was teacher's pet, so I very rarely got into trouble off my coaches, but I did get into a few bother with the CEO, with Gary Etherington, so I had a few indiscretions off the field rather than on it. Well, I had a few on it as well, but, you know, a couple of...

23:21Adrian Morley:These are two long lists.

23:23Shaun Lunt:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just be selective. Yeah, so, you know, in court a couple of times and we was getting to the point where it could have potentially been an issue. There was talk of custodial sentence at one point Anyway, Gary written us a letter. I think he turned up to court for us, actually. It was great to have the support, but as much as it was a bollocking, it was genuine advice on what not to do or what to do at that stage of my life. So I was really grateful, even though it was still a, as I say, still a rollicking, but it was positive.

24:01Adrian Morley:We've got a gift, really. Because of the experiences we've got within sport, we're used to constructive criticism, we're used to damning criticism as well and handling it in the right way. What advice would you give for people who struggle with constructive or damning criticism? What advice would you give them?

24:19Barrie McDermott:For me, it's that sort of, we spoke about earlier on off air about that growth mindset. Don't be so fixated in your own, don't catastrophize things. People are trying to help you, you've got to be willing to learn and willing to get things wrong, like we spoke about today, and put yourself out there and really want to learn as well. It doesn't matter how old you are, we're all still learning. If you've got that philosophy and you've got that drive in life to learn, I think you'll always bode well.

24:51Adrian Morley:The biggest thing for me when I went into Civistreet is nobody wants feedback. They want the good feedback. They want to be congratulated. But if they've not done it in the way that's got them, the result that they wanted, they don't want to pick pick pick the bones of that take it apart and realize where the mistakes

25:07Shaun Lunt:was what advice would you give them well the way i see it as a player or even in the working environment your teammates your workmates your coaches your bosses your ceos they only want what's best for the um establishment so you know the the better you perform the better the team performs the better the company performs so if they're saying things which you don't particularly like you've got to remember it's not personal it's just the bigger picture that they're just trying to get what's best for the company so take the criticism take the uh take the points take the more often than right it will be constructive you know you might start sulking but you're thinking you know what if i do this you'll be a better work mate i'll be a better player and then you

25:52Adrian Morley:know we only want the uh the same goal i was reluctant for conflict but in a work environment there's a way of sitting down and going through stuff. And if you could go back and you could look at something that had helped you, it was learning how to resolve that conflict and sit down and talk about it in a mature way. If you could go back and thank the coach for something that you took whilst you was a player that you use now in a professional basis on a day-to-day basis, what would that be?

26:19Barrie McDermott:Well, that's a tough one, that. Because again, we've had so many coaches and each individual. but again probably going back to Brian Mack and you know standing for what you believe you know whether it's against everyone else but you're standing for something or like the old saying you stand for something or you fall for anything and for me Brian Mack was that pillar of strength and whether or not he was inside he showed it on the outside and again he stuck to what he believed and he went for it.

26:46Shaun Lunt:Graeme Murray I know you like the saying as well Barry but it's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice and that that's you know not just in um in your rugby league world in life in general that's uh quality advice yeah it's a great piece of advice and one

27:02Adrian Morley:I live by myself as well so yeah we we have a lot to to thank Graeme Murray for but we're lucky we've had some tremendous role models some tremendous mentors and people who've guided us and steered us and then when you go into that work environment it's slightly different and it's sometimes hard to try and sit alongside somebody who hasn't had the same upbringing or apprenticeship as we have and get them to go in the right direction. And that resilience that we've got, that inherent inbuilt resilience always shines through.

27:37Adrian Morley:All right, time for some more locker room legends. And let's talk about some of the master tacticians that we've all played alongside. The game of rugby league, obviously, the physicality levels are through the roof, but it's about the chess players within the team because rugby is just chess played at high speed. Who are the coaches or players that stand out for you that were the sharpest tacticians that you ever came across?

28:01Barrie McDermott:So the coach would be Tim Sheens. He was, I can only describe him as a nerd of rugby league. He knew every player, every rule in the book. He used to study the rules. and if he could bend them, he could bend them. And I can always remember we were playing Salford at Salford when we nearly beat them in the Challenge Cup. And what we used to do is when we used to go in for a scrum, we used to get our props to hold their props in and we used to turn the scrum towards which way we were going to go. And we actually scored two tries. I scored both tries from the arse end of the scrum. Going to the playing side of things, the players would be Brett Hodgson.

28:37Barrie McDermott:Obviously, a lot of people remember Brett Hodgson when playing for New South Wales and Gordon Tallis-Raggan in 25 metres in a touch. But I can remember when he turned up. We were down at Leeds Road. It was wet. It was cold. It was in November. And he had a pair of skins on and he walked over and everyone sort of looked at him and went, he looked like Montgomery Burns. He was slender. We were like, who is this person? How is he going to change us? And I'll tell you what, do you know when we talk about class players having like time on the ball? Every time he got the ball, the time

29:09Adrian Morley:did he win Man of Steel

29:09Barrie McDermott:he won Man of Steel yes and he every time he got the ball it just seemed like someone clicked slow motion and he just like I said the players that he did at the back it was the hits that he took he was just yeah he was so special to play with yeah he was he was unbelievable then

29:24Adrian Morley:about you Moz which players did you play with that were two three players ahead of where you were at the time

29:30Shaun Lunt:I'd say I've got a couple there's the lad who played with Yistin Harris I mean I don't think he knew what he was going to do himself Yistin he was such a an individual player but particularly in 98 when he was by far the best player in the Super League he won the Man of Steel award and he was just such a joy to play with but again I don't think he was a great fantastic organiser more of an individual player the person who organised best for me was Lee Briers and I think he was he just got better and better as he got older and again you've mentioned about having time on your hands more often than not Breesy made the right decision and it's no surprise that we had most success when he was on the ball and he was playing well.

30:15Adrian Morley:I want to talk about somebody you know really well, but played with over in the NRL, Brad Fittler.

30:20Shaun Lunt:Yeah, yeah.

30:20Adrian Morley:Was he a master tactician or was he just somebody, a bit like yesterday, who played on instinct, but his instinct never let him down?

30:27Shaun Lunt:He was a little bit of both. He was the, no matter what's happened in the game, you knew he could have a spark of magic and just win the game for you. He was that talented. But he was a fantastic captain. It was a pleasure to play with him, but I was more impressed, not just his ability, but the way he went about himself, the way he spoke, the way he addressed the team. And he was the latter stages of his career when I played with him, but no less impressive. He was probably one of the best players I played with.

30:56Adrian Morley:Talk about yesterday. There was lots of times I was in a game and I'm just looking to him thinking, you need to get the, we need to get the ball. But the time I think about was, one time when I wasn't playing, I was suspended, surprise. I was watching it in a bar in Tenerife, funnily enough, and it was the Bradford game in 98, Moz. Can you remember it?

31:16Shaun Lunt:Oh, yeah, second game of the season, that. He was unreal, and I was sat thinking, how has he done that? Well, they were the reigning champs. That's right. They won 97 at a canter. I think they won 17 games straight. Lost a couple towards the end, but they were the benchmark, and then it was Graeme Murray. So we played one game here, and then we got to play Bradford away, and we absolutely schooled them. My favourite moment was when our prop dad and Fleury.

31:39Adrian Morley:Daz Fleury broke his nose, yeah.

31:41Shaun Lunt:Yeah, he copped Graham Bradley. Graham Bradley, that's right, the penguin, yeah. He was really annoying, Australian, and the camera just panned on him and his nose was gone and blood was down his white shirt. Get in there, Daz. Anyway, we're not allowed to encourage that behaviour anymore. We're not endorsing that, we are. Yeah, it was great. But yes, Tim was on fire. I think he scored a trick, and that was the start of his great year and Leeds is a great year as well.

32:06Barrie McDermott:Going back to sort of Mavericks and stuff like Danny Brough, the year that he got Man of Steel.

32:11Adrian Morley:I'm glad you've mentioned Brough because he's another one that got Man of Steel that I think sometimes doesn't get the recognition that he deserves because he had the most competitive spirit on anybody. He was often fighting with his own shadow because he was annoyed with something that had gone wrong for his team.

32:25Barrie McDermott:Again, with Broughy, Nathan Brown saw something in Broughy and what Nathan Brown wanted was a kicking game. and I'm telling you now, Bruffy is the most talented person I've ever seen kick a ball to this day, including all the Aussies. He could literally, he could knock into 2020, change the game. Do you know, talking about the moments, the momentum swings. So 2013, there was, so the spine of the team was Scott Grix, Luke Robinson, Danny Brough and myself. And what sort of we did was, again, when we talk about teams, sort of me, me, Grixie and Robbo, we sort of directed everything and let Bruffy do what he wanted.

33:02Barrie McDermott:because you can't have too many Mavericks in the team neither, can you? A bit like a Rangie Chase. He was outstanding, but you need to, everyone sort of needs to play their structured game to allow him to do that off-the-cuff stuff because sometimes it doesn't come off. But yeah, Danny Brough was, he was amazing that year. He got Man of Steel. He was sensational.

33:18Adrian Morley:Let's talk about legacy and lessons from sport, from the experience you've had out on the pitch. What do these tacticians teach us about leadership

33:28Shaun Lunt:and preparations beyond sport? Well, it's important you have a goal. it's important you have a plan uh there's no point in going out there not doing any training or not practicing anything and going out on game day expecting to get a result or going to a meeting business-wise expecting to get get a favorable result you need to go in with a plan you need to go in and just have a think what you want what you want to get out of it and then then go in

33:51Barrie McDermott:execute it and then see how you go yeah don't rely on luck you make your own luck in in in sports or in the world, don't you? You know, people might see that 40-20 or they might see that outstanding try, you know, that individual try. But again, they've tried that over and over and they've failed and they've kept going and they've kept going. And for me, it's that, you know, the hours, just put in the hours, just keep doing it, keep doing it. And like I said, that's how you come up trumps is you make your own look.

34:23Adrian Morley:Serious rugby IQ, some cracking answers there. Love it. let's go through the takeaways now for our listeners and talk about the coaches the mentors and the lessons within it so for people who aren't lucky enough to have a coach how key and how

34:37Barrie McDermott:important is it to have or seek a mentor yeah i think it's extremely important also when when we talk about mentors we think of positive don't we but i've also had coaches that have been and i've learned a lot from how not to be as well so again now in life i take bits that what i don't want to be about them as well so the negative parts as well so even the negative ones you can you can still take some positives away from them so again in life you'll come across good ones you'll come across bad ones and it's just about taking them little bits and try to seek a good one and be fortunate to get that one that's got time and and energy to put into you and just try not to take

35:16Shaun Lunt:things personally if you're in team or business you all want the same thing your boss or your coach wants you to perform as well as you can just so the organisation is giving itself the best chance so yeah just have a bit of a thick skin and yeah take it on board and seek help if you can.

35:37Adrian Morley:And how do people avoid a negative reaction to that feedback? What tips would you give them on handling criticism Moss?

35:43Shaun Lunt:Yeah just don't take it personally, whatever's I mentioned before whatever your boss or your coach is saying it's to make you a better player make you a better work colleague it's to make the company better make the team better so take it on board and do something about it you know you don't want to be the weak link in the team the weak link in the company have a look and work with the boss or work with your coach see if you are improving over a given amount of time but yeah it's not personal you've got to be thick skinned

36:13Barrie McDermott:yeah and again do you know you might not do you know agree with what the boss is saying or do you know the person in charge is saying and and you don't have to it's how you approach things as well do you know you can if you if you're in a team environment and your coach is spraying you you're not going to spray him back or you're not going to do you know you're not going to have that emotional response because you're not going to win

36:30Shaun Lunt:you're not going to win no it's like at home and you're telling your kids off do you know you

36:34Barrie McDermott:they're never going to win either even when they're right they're still wrong do you know so for me it's how you approach things if someone said something and again we've talked about you you say some stuff and you don't realise how that person's going to take it, just say to that person, oh, can I take you? Please can I have 30 seconds of your time? Just explain to me. I don't really, you know, understand what you're saying. And again, it could be taken the total wrong way how that person said it.

36:59Adrian Morley:So asking questions is important. Yeah, very, yes. So it's no good as a leader just pointing out what you've done wrong. The follow-up to that is, right, help me fix it.

37:09Barrie McDermott:Yeah, again, we can all say, right, when something happens on Sky and we can say you shouldn't have done that. But it's totally different when you're in the heat at the moment, when you're in that battle. So it's explaining why they do something wrong. Again, I use it with my kids, right? If I tell them off if they're doing something wrong, I don't just say you're doing that wrong. I'll explain to them why it's wrong and then they understand it. So if they do it again, that's when you can give them a good bollocking. But again, at least they know wrong from right. If you don't know you're doing something wrong, well, it's not wrong in my eyes.

37:37Adrian Morley:And if you want to be a leader in your environment, any environment, how do you think the best way to go about that is?

37:43Shaun Lunt:Well, I think you need to be honest. I think you need to give honest feedback to your players or to your staff. Try to set them goals. You know, you could have a conversation with them and, you know, ask where they're going on, where they think they can improve. And as I say, ultimately, you want the company to do better or the team to do better. And when they're performing as well as they can, that's exactly what will happen.

38:05Barrie McDermott:Again, for me, it's about living what you preach. It's about putting it into practice. If people see you doing it, they will follow. So for me, what I do is I've got a little stick man on a piece of paper and I've got three morals, integrity, nonjudgmental, and accepting of anyone. And they're the three things that I believe that if I stick to those morals and I'm doing that on a daily basis, that I'm becoming a mentor and leading people in the right way.

38:35Adrian Morley:So if we do get a second series, hopefully we come back, what improvements do you want to make? I personally want more food on the table. Although it might distract me, but I want more food, more fruit on the table. What about you, Lunte? Probably a better-known props either side of me. Well, yeah, maybe. Don't hit me. Maybe. What about special guests from different environments? Better chairs, less squeaky.

39:00Barrie McDermott:Yes.

39:02Adrian Morley:things you can't play with when you're bored

39:05Shaun Lunt:and Moz being on time

39:06Adrian Morley:and Moz being on time instead of turning up late and wanting to go early

39:10Shaun Lunt:keep him on the toes that's me why do you keep tapping your watch?

39:14Adrian Morley:because I've got places to be mate places to be in other words Mrs Morley needs you all that's right well hopefully you've enjoyed it Adrian Morley Sean Lunt my name's Baron McDermott this has been Changing Rooms brought to you by our good friends at Elect Hopefully we'll see you again where we have more food on the table. We have better guests, less squeaky chairs. You have better props at the side here. And hopefully we'll see you soon. Like and subscribe and try and find us somewhere, anywhere.