In short
First jobs and first days in elite rugby league; fear, imposter syndrome, proving you belong; how criticism and “good looks like” shape leadership and team success.
Guests (backgrounds)
- Barrie McDermott: former Great Britain/England rugby league player; later ex-pro mentor type; discusses learning from international camps.
- Adrian Morley: ex-Leeds Rhinos hooker; started as an apprentice electrician; became full-time pro; later captain/leader.
- Shaun Lunt: ex-Warrington/Leeds captain; started at Workington; became captain at 18; later captained England/Great Britain.
Key claims
- Imposter syndrome eased after “a dozen games” and positive reinforcement; confidence grows by blocking outside noise and focusing on daily small actions.
- Fitness/work ethic and will/desire are decisive; “leaders led” and leaders by example create belief.
- Criticism is a chance to learn, not a stigma.
Notable examples
Morley “drowned” a seat dispute with Stephen Wild; Lunt as 18-year-old captain at Workington then confidence knocked back; Lunt’s England cap after settling into his level; Wigan 2010-11 and Leeds “golden generation” cited as team models.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOReflections on First Jobs
0:36 to 2:49
The hosts share their experiences from their first jobs and the challenges faced.
“Welcome back to Changing Rooms, brought to you by our good friends at Elect.”
Team Environment and First Days
2:49 to 6:10
Discussion on the first day experiences in a team environment and the feelings of proving oneself.
“It's pleasure, it's a privilege, but it's a challenge.”
Adjusting to Professional Rugby
6:10 to 9:26
Hosts talk about the transition to professional rugby and the pressures involved.
“So we sat there normal and everyone, like looking back now, you can see everyone's like waiting for this to happen.”
Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
9:26 to 14:00
Discussion on feelings of inadequacy and overcoming imposter syndrome in a professional setting.
“Do you feel like you had to prove yourself?”
Finding Confidence in Team Dynamics
14:00 to 15:10
Learn how confidence and self-identity evolve in challenging team environments.
“And since making that decision in my head, my performances improved dramatically, you know, from not being confident to suddenly I should be here and then represented my country a year later.”
Leadership Lessons from Early Experiences
15:10 to 16:50
Discover the journey of leadership through personal challenges and team expectations.
“So I saw, but all the older lads, they got jealous and who's this 18 year old lad coming in and telling me what to do?”
The Impact of Mentorship in Sports
16:50 to 19:10
Understand how mentorship shapes athletes' careers and leadership styles.
“And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, I'm ready for this.”
Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
19:10 to 21:10
Explore the struggle with imposter syndrome and how to build self-belief.
“that you thought, I'm confident enough to step forward?”
The Anxiety of New Beginnings
21:10 to 23:10
Relate to the fears and excitement of starting new jobs or roles.
“At that point, he realises he's got more to offer than just as a follower.”
The Value of Thick Skin in Sports
23:10 to 24:00
Learn how resilience and thick skin are essential for personal and professional growth.
“The sentiment of wanting to prove yourself, there's nothing wrong with that.”
Show all 15 chapters
Memorable Teams and Rivalries in Rugby
24:00 to 27:30
Discuss the legendary rugby teams and rivalries that have shaped the sport.
“I'm hoping that day will come soon, Moss.”
Memorable Rivalries in Rugby
28:01 to 29:24
Hear about the intense rivalries and experiences in rugby, particularly against the Bradford team.
“or even, you know, just getting your head around going anywhere near a Bradford player or team or God forbid you'd go and sign for them, would you, Moss?”
Reflections on Great Teams
29:25 to 33:05
Discussing standout teams in rugby history and what makes them exceptional.
“However, I hope you enjoyed spending your 30 pieces of silver.”
Building a Successful Team
33:06 to 35:03
Exploring the key components necessary for creating a successful rugby team.
“Luntie, what do you think are the key components of a successful team?”
Dealing with Criticism and Imposter Syndrome
35:04 to 39:49
Strategies for coping with criticism and overcoming feelings of imposter syndrome in sports.
“I think criticism's got a bit of like a stigma to it now.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Adrian Morley:Welcome to Changing Rooms brought to you by our good friends at Elect, where a few of us ex-pros bring you stories from the pitch and beyond. I'm Barrie McDermott, I will be joined every week by Adrian Morley and Shaun Lunt, legends, mates and proof that life after rugby is full of lessons, laughs and the odd knock-on along the way. Together we talk about challenges, change and what keeps us moving forward on the field, at work and in life. So let's get stuck in. Welcome back to Changing Rooms, brought to you by our good friends at Elect. Adrian Morley, Sean Luntz, welcome back lads.
0:43Barrie McDermott:Do you enjoy the first one? Certainly did mate, it was awesome. Something new, a little bit nervous at first but then as we got chatting, it started to flow and really enjoyed it, thank you. I did, Baz, yeah.
0:52Shaun Lunt:Good chat, enjoyed it. So we're here, let's go again.
0:56Adrian Morley:I thought we'd start by work because we're trying to correlate the difference and the similarities between our previous work environment and this work environment. Give us some of your thoughts and memories on your first job, Moz.
1:08Shaun Lunt:Well, I didn't sign at school as a lot of the professionals do, so I had another year at amateur, under 17. So in my family in the north of England, it was big to get an apprenticeship at the time. My eldest brother was an apprentice electrician. My middle brother was an apprentice joiner. So I joined them ranks. I was an apprentice electrician. So it was tough. I couldn't drive at the time, just leaving school. So I was 16-year-old, but I was working in Liverpool at the time. So I had to get up at six o 'clock, walk to Eccles, which is about two miles, get picked up, get took to Liverpool, work, get dropped off at Eccles, walk back.
1:45Shaun Lunt:So I was leaving the house at six, getting in about six for£1.52 an hour. So, but didn't think anything of it. And even at the time, I was still, you know, I had 50 quid in my pocket at the end of the week and some of my mates who were at college didn't have that luxury. So, but that's just what you did at the time. Luntie, what were your first work?
2:04Barrie McDermott:Oh, my first job was actually working in a warehouse at Argos. So when I was at Castleford, I was full time, but I was only getting 8 ,000 pound a year. So I had to work of an evening. So, and I was 17 at the time. So I couldn't work in the main warehouse because I wasn't old enough, not classed as an adult. So they put me in the jewellery section with all the women packing. And there was some older women from Castleford. So you know where I'm going with this. You know, I was a young lad, a young strapping rugby league player. And every time I walked to the toilet, there was a sole woman. She used to pester me all the time and say, oh, the things I'd do to you.
2:40Barrie McDermott:So next six months I spent in toilets.
2:45Adrian Morley:So let's get into the main topic for discussion today. Not everybody gets to call professional sport their job, but as we know, we're lucky. It's pleasure, it's a privilege, but it's a challenge. It's not all it's cracked up to be. So what do you remember about your first day in a team environment?
3:02Shaun Lunt:Yeah, so I signed on my 17th birthday in May, but then waited that season out. So I started in September. That was the old seasons when it's winter rugby leaves.
3:12Adrian Morley:You was in that changing room, some big names in that changing room.
3:14Shaun Lunt:There were some big names. However, as a young academy slash A-teamer, you didn't go in the first team changing rooms. That was the real, the first team changing rooms was the first teamers and fringe players. Then they had another changing rooms for the A-team. Then they had another changing room for the academy. So coming from an apprenticeship background, it was similar in a working environment. You'd go in as an apprentice. You wouldn't dream of talking to these senior electricians the way you would your mates. You've got to earn your stripes and go up the ladder. even though it was bigger than all of them.
3:46Shaun Lunt:And I just didn't do that. And certainly I would never do that in the professional environment. So I got there and Leeds had the likes of Ellery Hanley and Gary Schofield, these absolute superstars. But I didn't say boo to a goose. But it was very daunting, them first few training sessions, but also very exciting. One to you and I is similar in that respect.
4:07Adrian Morley:I signed for Oldham, you signed for Workington. I joined a changing room with 28, 29, 30-year-old blokes who'd been demoted from the first division as it was then. They were in the second division. I wasn't put in the academy changing rooms. There were six of us signed at the same time. Five of my mates went in the academy or A-team dressing room. I was straight in the first team. I didn't have a clue what I was doing. But the coach, Peter Tunks, was like, you're playing in the first team. True to his word, I played in the first day, but I was sat in the corner and didn't have a clue what I was doing.
4:38Back in the old days, the coach used to rub you down.
4:41Adrian Morley:so he'd be talking to you and giving you little tidbits of advice while he's rubbing and trying to rip the skin off your bones so in that in that sort of first couple of training sessions I'm just sat there really quiet in awe of what was going on with these people who I'd watched on the on the terraces but thinking to myself I don't want to say a word out of place even though I was the same I was probably as big as everyone else but in my character I wasn't I wasn't formed yet
5:07Barrie McDermott:what about you walking into workington so when i went to work and it was obviously they were a part-time club and they were in the second division and it was you know walking in there it was it was really totally different from me because i'd been at castleford so i had that professional mentality and then i'd gone in and then you've got all these you know ex full-time professionals that have dropped down the league that are coming for a payday and they just don't care they're talking about being on the drink at the weekend doing this doing that and i'm sat there I'm like, what am I doing with my life here?
5:37Barrie McDermott:Like, what has this become? Is this going to be me for the next like 20 years? But moving on from that, obviously I was lucky enough. And then I sort of talk about my career when it kicked off at Huddersfield, when I kicked on and went full-time professional. And I was 21 at the time. So there was like Kev Brown, there was Luke Robinson, Stephen Miles. He had all these great Britain internationals. And I'd actually met Kev probably about two weeks prior than going in because he came in early for training. So I sort of knew Kev. So obviously when you're walking into changing rooms, you want to sit with your mate don't you and do you feel comfortable there so I'm sort of walking around with Kev like a little lap dog because I was one of the youngest there as I can always remember our first we had a friend against Castleford at Castleford and that was my sort of my real challenge you know as sort of like challenging me as a man and so Kev goes come on we'll get on bus and you can sit next to me and you know Kev really well Kev Brown and he's a run bugger and he knew fine well he was stitching me up so he sat me down and I'm sat in Stephen on Wild's seat.
6:33Barrie McDermott:So we sat there normal and everyone, like looking back now, you can see everyone's like waiting for this to happen. So Wild is coming to me and he goes, you're in my seat. And it couldn't have been anyone more miserable than him to be sat in his seat, right? So I'm sat there and he said, move. I said, no. And I was like, oh no, this is, he's not backing down, I'm not backing down here. So he goes, right then. So this happened continued for about five minutes. Then the bus was about to set off and he goes, I'm just gonna stand here and I'm gonna prod you and annoy you. and it was one of my first games for the club.
7:02Barrie McDermott:So what I did do, I was like, okay then, I'll give you your seat back. But I got a bottle of water, I opened it and poured it all over the seat. I went, go and then sit down. I just went and sat at the back.
7:11Shaun Lunt:You get a hard time when you went in to that elite environment. No, no, they were all great, really. I mean, in the first year I was there at Leeds, I played half the year in the academy. I only played about six, 18 games and then got an opportunity to play first team. But they were all fantastic. I think I ended up living with Neil Harmon, actually.
7:30Adrian Morley:Would you say he was the one that took you under his wing? He's talking about Kev Brown.
7:33Shaun Lunt:Yeah, I think so. There was another lad, Phil Hassan, who was a little bit older than me, but he was mainly A team at the time. But because he was from Lancashire, we used to travel together. So Phil Hassan was fantastic. Neil Harmon was great. But I did play three first team games in my first season. And then they got me in and said, we know you're an apprentice electrician, but we'd like to bring you in so you can train during the day full time. and they said, what do you earn? I said, 80 quid a week. They said, we'll match it. We weren't told I'd come out the office. I thought, why did I say I was on 250?
8:03Shaun Lunt:But my dad said, you don't get in trouble for telling the truth, Adrian. So then I was full-time. Should have followed that advice, really. Yeah, I should have, yeah. But then I was full-time, but that was just pre-Super League. So 96, that's when Super League and the money was in. And then I signed a better deal for Super League era.
8:23Adrian Morley:It's funny you were talking before about, because Oldham was my first club. Wigan was my first big club and then I came here. But Oldham was a real adjustment for me because it was in my town. It was familiar. So Waterhead, Miami, it's a club, Oldham back to back. So I was familiar with everything except the people. So my first game debut, we played Sheffield away. Got back to the local place where we all used to go. It's called Henry Africa's Great Night Out. and I'm drifting across the other side of the room to speak to my mates and I get a tug on my shirt and it's Paul Ryan, big Paul Ryan, Charlie McAllister.
9:00Adrian Morley:They were thick as thieves. And he said, where are you going? I'm just going to see my mates. And he said, no, no, we're your mates now. You need to stay with us. And I was like, right, all right then. Obviously, what you do is you end up bringing your mates into that big group, the ones that you trust anyway. We know a few of yours that you've only had a few times, but in the main, the lads that you brought were good lads and they actually contributed to the group, didn't they? But was it overwhelming for either of you when you went into that environment? Do you feel like you had to prove yourself?
9:29Barrie McDermott:I certainly did. Like I say, I came into Huddersfield and they'd signed Scott Moore as nine. They'd signed Kiel Kyle Isle as nine and David Fayumu as nine. And I did get told as well, if I hadn't signed when I did, they wouldn't have signed me because when I signed, someone else wouldn't have signed me. So I was like, oh, that's great to know that If you don't want me here, then I'm just here and I'm just. Was that fuel for you? Yes, it was. That just made me train even harder. And I was the fittest at training. So I come from working in town. And that was, again, talking about our drives. I was just a hard worker.
10:04Barrie McDermott:Nothing beats hard work. And I made sure I was the fittest. And I can remember doing drills. And the bumper at the time was the conditioning. It was like, we're doing like 10 back, 20 back, 30 back, 40 back. And the bumper came home and said, oh, every set you had someone different at the time. and I was at the front all the time. And that's what I prided my game on. You know, I wasn't the best player, but sort of if I was here at minute one of a game, at minute eight, I was still there where people start there and come down. So that gave me that fuel to say, and I was a stubborn little guy. And again, I didn't let it show at the time that it affected me.
10:36Barrie McDermott:And come the end of that season, I was the number one choice nine, knocking on England's door and started in the Challenge Cup final. So yeah, from that first, you know, initial six weeks of where I had to drown someone's seat to show me that I weren't going to back down. And you know, that, that grit and determination, it got me through to being number one hooker.
10:58Adrian Morley:Mos, many people will know this about you, but I'm just going to state on record. You was the fittest forward I ever played with. It didn't matter whether you'd been to bed at eight o 'clock at night or six o 'clock in the morning. You'd just got in from the night before. You were always at the front. You were an incredible athlete with a lot of natural gifts, but a will and a mentality to be at the front. And I'm just going to, just a short one, I'll pour out. I remembered when you were talking there, my first training session on the same thing, young kid, fit, thinking, right, that's it, I'm having it.
11:30Adrian Morley:And again, round you, get behind me, you had no prizes in training. I probably took that a bit too far into my career, actually, because I never won anything after that. But you were always at the front and you had, I think you always wanted to make a statement to the people around you.
11:46Shaun Lunt:You can always count on me. Yeah, well, I mentioned in the last episode, I realised what my strengths were early on, being big, strong, aggressive and fit. So I challenge anyone to say they trained harder than me. If you can be as fit as you can be, it'll see you in good stead. And there's a lot of pretty average players who are very, very fit and they've made a good career out of it, haven't they? I think it's probably one of the things. But it is, isn't it? Yeah, that's one of the biggest attributes. Will and desire is a character attribute.
12:16Adrian Morley:Of course. And it could be classed as a skill because we undervalue will and desire. We put a good kicking game or a good tackle technique or whatever it is that's in your little kit bag when you become a rugby league player. We'll talk about rugby league at the minute. We'll maybe touch on the working environment and what bits you carried across. But that will and that understanding that I might not get there today, but I'm going to try my best today and I'm going to try and get there tomorrow. And that continuation and not getting disarmed if you don't get there. So I just want to ask about, you know, the beginning because it's really important when people listen to this, they understand there's some insecurities.
12:56Adrian Morley:You don't know what you have to offer. You've obviously been told by somebody that you're good enough to be in the environment. And then you do have the senior pro saying to you, hey, listen, get behind me. Were there any rituals, anybody that sort of took you to one side and said, you need to understand how this works?
13:12Shaun Lunt:There was no rituals. Everyone was dead welcoming, dead helpful. And, you know, when you see, you know, your heroes on TV, you don't know what they're going to be like, but they're all absolutely fantastic. Rugby League's such a leveler. And, you know, when you do make the first team, you're one of them, basically. But I did suffer from, I think they call it imposter syndrome. So I was 17 when I made my debut out here on Good Friday, 95. I played a couple of games, but then we had a break and then it was the centenary shorting season. So I'd just turned 18 and then I was first team and then I was thinking I'm going to get found out here.
13:46Shaun Lunt:You know, I shouldn't be here. But I was getting good feedback from my coaches, from my family and my mates, you're playing all right. It weren't until I played about probably a dozen games and that's when the penny dropped thinking I deserve to be here. I should be here. This is my level. And since making that decision in my head, my performances improved dramatically, you know, from not being confident to suddenly I should be here and then represented my country a year later. That was how big a turning point it was. And then it was plain sailing after that. But initially it wasn't as easy as you'd think.
14:23Adrian Morley:It's a good point that, Luntie, because what you do is you walk into an environment, you think, right, I'm going to have to do what they do. Otherwise I'm out on my own and I'm going to have no mates and nobody's going to like me and I'm going to struggle to get in this team. But at some point you think, right, I've got all that, but this is what I bring to the table. Is there a point where you thought either at Workington or at Huddersfield, right, I'm going to change who I am. No, not change who I am, but I'm going to change what these people think I am and just push my standards a little bit, a bit more true to myself.
14:53Barrie McDermott:Yeah, so when I first went to Workington, they actually gave, well, probably about six months into the season, our skipper at the time, he had a season-ending injury. So I was 18 and they made me captain. So I thought, brilliant, you know, that was great. But then what I did do is probably the worst thing that could ever happen to me because I thought I had to be a captain right away, right? So I saw, but all the older lads, they got jealous and who's this 18 year old lad coming in and telling me what to do? So then I got it stripped from me. So that was a big like knock in my confidence. So when I was at Leeds in the 2012 season, I'd learned so much, I learned so much about myself and I learned just how a team environment should be.
15:30Barrie McDermott:and it was one of the first times I ever felt comfortable in my own skin in a rugby team because again what a lot of people don't see in rugby as well it's a very volatile changing rooms I've always said you know if you go into the changing rooms and you're feeling a bit a bit or not very good or if you had an argument with the missus and you feel you go in there and you try and find someone that's not feeling too good themselves and you deflect everything on them so you get you get away because it's the banter is non-stop all the time so then I came to Leeds and I was just like the vicious banter wasn't there it was all about coming in and getting the job done and then obviously we won the grand final I loved it I didn't want to go back I agreed a three-year deal at Leeds at the time but I had to go back to Huddersfield and I said to Blue I said I'm not coming back to Huddersfield to do the same as what I was doing before I said I've just left the best club in England at the time to come back here I want my career to thrive and I can always remember something happened with a certain player who was one of our senior players that happened at training and i went up to the coaching staff and me robo in grixey and said we're not standing for that that needs to stop said and i probably wouldn't have done that no and i've been at leeds and learned how you know a true sports person should be you know and call people out i had the confidence to go back and and that yeah i'm not saying this is why we we won it that year but that year we went on and won the league leader shield at footersfield but yeah definitely at leads just them like the mentors of kev simfield jimmy peacock again going back on kev i was very lucky to travel with kev you you traveled with kev yourself didn't you yeah for a number of years so taught him absolutely everything he knows even the marathon running so uh so yeah so i traveled with kev and every day i was just picking his brains and whatnot and um again really really well with kev and yeah i just learned so much from him and what i've always trying to do is just pick little little traits off people you know i don't want to be kev kev's
17:23Adrian Morley:already cared but take a little good bit from him a little bit good from him and try and mold him into myself and it's corporate speak in it you've got to know what good looks like if you don't know what good looks like then you'll just keep doing the same things ending up getting maybe the same result maybe a different result by pure accident most you've been a captain and i'll tell you now when i met you at 17 18 years of age i would have never said that you would have developed into somebody that had leadership qualities at what point and it's the same question but phrased slightly differently at what point did you stop becoming somebody who was just turning up and following everybody else to somebody who said right this is what we're going
Read the full transcript
18:01Shaun Lunt:to do probably when i when i went to warrington that's when uh paul cullen asked me to captain warrington but again i was reluctant uh i've always loved training loved playing but the responsibility i wasn't over the moon about but at this point in my life i was i was a dad i'd been international for more than 10 years. I'd played in Australia. So I did have the experience. And that's when I thought about it. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, I'm ready for this. But then I thought, I don't want to be a captain and all the silly decisions off the pitch, all the silly decisions on the pitch, getting sent off, getting suspended, et cetera.
18:40Shaun Lunt:So I did change the way I played after that. And proud to say, never got sent off for the rest of my career. and it wasn't something I took to straight away. As with everything, it takes a bit of time. And after that, I felt great doing that role and got a chance to captain England. Captain Great Britain was unbelievable.
19:01Adrian Morley:Well, Luntie, we talked, your previous answer was about going back to Huddersfield and saying, right, listen, I think this is what we do. At what point and what do you think happened prior to going back to Huddersfield that you thought, I'm confident enough to step forward? Was it literally that you'd seen and you experienced it and you wanted to pass it on?
19:22Barrie McDermott:Yeah, definitely. Like I said, I came into probably one of the best team environments that there's been in team sport for a long time. When I went back, I had to sit down with Baloo and he said that you need to be a senior player now. So you could say that I left the boy and came back a man as a rugby player and carried that burden. and again, I felt more, it's weird because again, most talks about that imposter syndrome. I went back and I felt like more people respected me. I'd earned it, I'd gone away, I'd become a champion and I'd come back and people actually listen to what I said.
19:55Adrian Morley:So it was actually outside influences rather than some conscious decision you'd made. It was outside influences.
20:02Barrie McDermott:And that has been a biggest, my sort of downfall that in my playing days is outside influence. So a lot of people say, like I said, I was very fortunate to play for England for one time. And everyone used to say to me, why did you only play once, right? Because I played, if you think about it, I played against Australia, at Australia. If you could say that you want to make one game ever, you'd want to be against Australia, wouldn't it, right? And I used to always say that I wasn't good enough, but it wasn't that I wasn't good enough. I wasn't emotionally strong enough to take the setback. So when I got dropped from the team, again, I let all that outside noise, outside influences, rather than focusing on the inside and what I can do to get better.
20:40Barrie McDermott:And so for me, that was the biggest thing, that impossible. I'm not good enough. I'm not this. I'm not that. I shouldn't be there. I shouldn't be this. And then, like I said, when I got older and started realizing that it is inside, block out the noise. And then that's when I started to really, really kick on.
20:55Adrian Morley:And it is a process. I know we're talking about rugby league, but it's true to life. You go into any new job, new skill, new environment. You have to understand what's required of you. Then you can start to drip feed your personality. and then eventually he can start to lead. So Luntis said it was a circumstance out of his control. He's going to lead his comeback. At that point, he realises he's got more to offer than just as a follower. Was there a game? Was there a moment? Was there a season that you thought, that's it now, I'm above everybody else. Not so much above, but I'm capable of giving information that everyone will accept.
21:31Shaun Lunt:Yeah, probably 09. So the second year I was Captain Warrington, but the way Paul Cullen said, you know, I said, oh, don't feel I'm captain material, you know, but he said, you've been a leader. Without, whether you knew it or not, what you're doing training, what you're doing games, that's great leadership. The more I thought about it, the more it made sense, but probably two years of actually, you know, being in the job, that's when I felt really confident. We had a great year in 09. We ended up winning the Challenge Cup. You did? Can't remember who it was against, but we won the Challenge Cup.
22:05Shaun Lunt:I think you give it away when you're in. Yeah, but that year I got shortlisted for the Man of Steel as well. And I felt I was doing my role well. Obviously the team was doing well. That was probably when I said, right, this is for me now.
22:23Adrian Morley:Do you see anything that you've gone through in that early part of your professional rugby league career, whether it's as a semi-pro, as we were, all of us at some point, or coming into a full-time environment? Do you see any similarities between that first day of work for anybody that's watching this and has a little bit of anxiety about first day at work, new professional?
22:43Shaun Lunt:Yeah, 100%. I mean, I've spoke about how nervous I was, how daunting it was, but also how excited I was. You know, when you start a new job, you start a new club, it is very exciting. You meet new people, new skill sets, that kind of thing. So I mentioned going with a bit of enthusiasm and just enjoy it. You might feel uncomfortable, but any situation is enjoyable. And then if you put your heart into it, I'm sure you'll settle in and enjoy the experience.
23:11Adrian Morley:The sentiment of wanting to prove yourself, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just how you go about doing it, isn't it?
23:17Barrie McDermott:Yeah, 100%. Again, you mentioned on taking criticism. I used to take criticism early in the days, and I used to nearly go home and start crying, or he didn't like me or anything like that. Do you know what I mean? If anyone used to say anything bad, it used to really affect me. but it's just criticism. It's just someone saying, right, you've done that wrong. It's okay. Now can you try this bit? And there, you've got to be thicker skinned, I should say. And a lot of, that's a term that's...
23:41Adrian Morley:And I think we are, in general, as ex-sportsmen, we've got thick skin. My skin is as thick as a rhino. I do not care if I get it wrong. I'll just keep going. I'll just keep going. Just keep turning up. And the more experiences I've got behind me, i.e. failures, the better I'll be because at some point I'm going to get it right.
24:00Shaun Lunt:Yeah.
24:01Adrian Morley:I'm hoping that day will come soon, Moss.
24:07Adrian Morley:So I thought it'd be interesting to talk about some legendary lineups, some dream teams and dynasties. I'm a bit older than you two, so I still remember the dominant team of the 80s and 90s that Wigan had. I think they won eight Challenge Cups back-to-back. Sean Edwards, who was a maverick as a player, they had a pack of forwards that could beat up anybody. Martin of Fire came at the back end and they just almost beat people psychologically before they got on the field. So I'll start with you, Lunti. You've got the whole of the 80s, 90s and now to pick from. Which team stood out to you and why?
24:43Barrie McDermott:So there's a couple that stood out and obviously it was the Bradford side in the early 2000s. I wasn't playing professionally then. I was still a young kid. I was in my early teens and just seeing that team, it was just absolute ferocious. just, you know, the size from Shontay and Happy on one wing and then you've got Nathan McAvoy on the other wing. There was only three people that were small and they were probably all six foot with Deacon, Robbie Paul and James Lowe. So, you know, that team was formidable, that pack. And obviously you played against that. That was sort of your main era as well as playing.
25:16Barrie McDermott:And I can always remember I was at Castleford and it would have been in around about 2006. And I played a curtain raise before you guys played at Oddsall. and there's 26 ,000 people there. What a place also was, by the way. I know, yeah, that ball, that atmosphere. Yeah, so we'd actually played right before you guys played and we had a late-ish kickoff. So by the time we just finished, you guys were ready for warming up. So there was probably about 10 ,000 people in there at the time. To watch the warm-up, yeah. And then we watched the game, there's 26 ,000 there. And obviously you guys, there was no loss between you as knocking lumps out of each other.
25:49Barrie McDermott:But for me, when I played, it was the 2010 Wigan side that really stands out to me. The 10 and 11 season they had under Michael Maguire. Played against them the year before, the last game of the season, and we beat them very comfortably at Huddersfield. And then obviously Madge came in that year and obviously he's taken the Broncos to the final this year. And there's a lot said about his beliefs and how he trains them. He trains them really hard. You know, he makes everything tough. And I do believe in all that tough stuff, you know, not the pretty stuff where people go and, you know, summer training camps, they'll go to Tenerife or they'll go to Spain where that year I believe he took them into a army camp and none of them had sleeping bags and they had no sleep for days and stuff there that just makes you tough like genuinely tough I do think that again in this walk here everything's too easy nothing gets really you know down nitty gritty and I think that team when they came out in 2010 they absolutely battered everyone and as a team they were all connected there weren't you know there was no individual Sean O 'Loughlin came into his own and he was unbelievable.
26:53Barrie McDermott:They had Amos Roberts at the back, they had Mickey Mac, how ferocious he was. So they had Sam Tompkins coming into it when he was younger. They had Joel Tompkins and they were just relentless. They were literally relentless. And that year, I believe they won the Challenge Cup and then the Grand Final was the opposite way around. So that as a team for me, I really admired that team. Hated playing against them. Hated playing against them. You always knew that. And we had some great games, some big brawls but the respect that I've got for that team that 2010-2011 team is yeah it was special that team
27:30Adrian Morley:you would have played against them and all
27:31Shaun Lunt:wouldn't you Mark yes I did it was fantastic there's a big rivalry with Warrington and Wigan anyway and every game whether it was Wigan or Warrington was full blooded and that's what you want to do when you play rugby league you want to be competitive you want to be physical and that's exactly what you got from Wigan
27:49Adrian Morley:yeah I'm glad you mentioned the Leeds Bradford stuff because that is a bitter rivalry. And if you're a Leeds player, you would never dream of socialising or, you know, being involved with anybody from Bradford or even, you know, just getting your head around going anywhere near a Bradford player or team or God forbid you'd go and sign for them, would you, Moss?
28:10Shaun Lunt:Well, I used to live with Neil Armand, he was a Bradford player as well. Really? I'm just going to make a note here.
28:19Adrian Morley:Judas. Judas. Judas.
28:21Shaun Lunt:okay well I was a gun for hire at the time exactly and Bradford
28:27Barrie McDermott:what were you going to say just saying obviously when I talked about that Bradford side what was it like
28:33Adrian Morley:going up against them brilliant brilliant I loved it and again embracing the challenge of they called them the awesome force yes there was Paul Anderson there was Fielding Stuart Brian McDermott and there was the Aussie back was it called Doniger
28:47Shaun Lunt:Joe Vagana was the biggest of them all he was like tackling a Kai Wernie
28:52Adrian Morley:was literally the size of your wingspan but yeah just I loved it my favourite game of all time is a game, a semi-final, you'd have played in it when I was 99 in Huddersfield and they beat us in two semi-finals and that was the third one and it was a brilliant day, brilliant game best night out ever, best stories ever that I would have to take to my death for fear of being locked up but yeah just a brilliant experience around that period of time. And again, really pleased and proud I never played for him, Moz. However, I hope you enjoyed spending your 30 pieces of silver. I did, I did.
29:31Shaun Lunt:I've got the ring to prove it.
29:34Adrian Morley:God bless Andy Lynch. Anyway, let's go on to your legendary lineups, Moz. What do you look at?
29:39Shaun Lunt:When I first started taking rugby league seriously, I just went to high school. I only started playing at 11, but then I was obviously interested in Great Britain at the time and 1990 stands out massively in my mind. That's the closest we've come to winning back the Ashes since we won it in 1970. So it was the Test Series over in England. We won the first Test at Wembley and the second one, we got robbed. Who do we blame for that? Well, we blame Lee Jackson, obviously. We blame Jaco and every training center.
30:11Adrian Morley:We're like, listen, if you want to took that dummy off Ricky Stewart, we'd have had the Ashes.
30:16Shaun Lunt:Good lad, Jaco. He's a great guy. but I mean that was you know great team fantastic you know they had Errol Anley who's my hero you know he was probably the greatest two of the best
30:29Adrian Morley:players in the world in that team at that time and Gary Scordfield and yeah
30:33Shaun Lunt:one of my claims to fame is on my debut here I got to play with Errol Anley only played with him once but not many kids can say they played with their idols Gary Scordfield fantastic player but yeah that test series really ignited something in me. Great Britain was the be-all and end-all after that. But from a playing perspective, I've got to say the team, Mid-Warrington team, 2011. So I got made captain in 08. We'd won the Challenge Cup a couple of times. But 2011, I just felt we was on another level. Your squad had Lee Briers, were the Monaghan's there at that time? Bridge had a great year. Bridge had a great year.
31:15Shaun Lunt:Gareth Carvell was on fire. You know, he was my sidekick and he was fantastic. We had a little in-house competition and it's great that, you know, you've got the same goal, but he'd come up to me, oh, I've got 180 metres this week. What do you get? And it was competitive, even though we were best mates. But Benny Westwood was on fire, Paul Wooden, there was a great competition for places. We had a bit of luck with injury because, you know, unfortunately that's part and parcel of the sport. We had a bit of luck with injury, but every game, we'd go into every game confident I don't know how many games we'd lost but it was it wasn't a great deal and even the games against the tough lads the big boys we'd schooled them you know really went to town on them and I'd never felt as confident at the end of the year and even though we were league leaders shield in the olden days that's you're crowned champions aren't you you're the best team in the comp but that's not like that anymore and it was a bit of a bit of an anti-climax but I still say that was the best domestic team I played with
32:13Adrian Morley:It would be wrong if I didn't mention the Rhinos of 2004 through to, I said 2015, I know they won it in 17s. They've won it eight times, the Rhinos, but over what they call the golden generation that was Simfield, who was a master tactician and evolved his game. Maguire, who started off as a support player, but again became a game manager and steerer team. Rob Burrow, who could change any other game. Jamie Jones Buchanan, who was the grit and steel of the team, and you took Ryan Bailey in. Jamie Peacock was there as well. So over that period of time, Leeds had a number of people that came in and out of it.
32:51Adrian Morley:And I've heard Jamie Jones Buchanan, who's going to be the chief executive of Leeds Rhinos now, I've heard him describe it like this. They talk about the golden generation being five players. There was approximately 150 players that came in and out of the system during that period of time. And they all added something different. So the Rhinos winning all those finals over a short period of time, 11 years what is it that makes those great teams great moz what goes into a great side well i think
33:19Shaun Lunt:success breeds success when you've had a taste of it you want more and more so that's the great incentive but in terms of getting it right the first time you need you need a strong coach strong leader and strong work ethic and obviously talent as well so if you add all them uh ingredients together theoretically you've got a uh the blueprint of a of a successful team but you've got to work card from day one and you've got to have a clear goal and you've got to execute that goal. Luntie, what do you think are the key components of a successful team?
33:49Barrie McDermott:So I was very fortunate to be a part of that golden generation. I spent a short time there and I seen firsthand what I believe was, and that was the leaders led. I traveled in with Kevin. We were the first ones in. I was only the first one in because I traveled in with Kevin out to be. He was the first one there on the training pitch. He was the first one out doing kicking. He was the last one out doing it was the last one out there the kirkstall though you had jp who was you know just it was monumental in lead and you know if he he wouldn't tell you to go do something he'd be doing it before you and then he'd drag you so for me them top teams like led by examples you look at rob so small in stature but could literally them grand finals you know in my eyes that was one of the greatest grand finals 2011 that try ever you know that i still watch that get goosebumps you got like magazine when people talk you know you had kylie kylie lulu i think he doesn't get the the wraps that he deserves, the way he used to just hit you, you know, and you get back in your defensive line, you'd look, you'd have JP, you'd have Kylie, you're ready to go again, you know, nobody told anyone what to do, they just went and done it and everyone followed and again, that went right from, right up to Brian Mack as well, you know, all the coaching staff, everyone just were on the same page, doing the same thing, a good, strong leader and everyone followed.
35:03Adrian Morley:Some really good stuff there, lads, I want to cover our takeaways ways for the audience let's start with criticism and dealing with criticism in the right way well
35:12Shaun Lunt:if it's constructive criticism that's great no one's perfect in sports you know in the sporting life in the working life if your coach or the boss tells you you're doing something wrong or you can do something better it's important to listen it's important to uh be open-minded and then they're only trying to make you better at the end of the day so take it on board apply it and then there you go.
35:34Adrian Morley:Embracing criticism, Luntie.
35:35Barrie McDermott:Yeah, definitely. I think criticism's got a bit of like a stigma to it now. You know, if people hear the words, criticism, what have I done wrong? Especially I did, you know, getting criticised on a pitch, doing video reviews after a game and, you know, the video bit there and you'd see it clipped Lunt and you know you were going to get smashed in front of everyone and I was just like, oh no, I had no sleep before because I couldn't sleep after games. And that really used to, you know, weigh down on me and really change my mood for the rest of the week. So for me, it's something that I've had to evolve and really, you know, look at criticism in a different way and say, it's a chance to learn, you know, I'm getting better.
36:09Barrie McDermott:Someone's actually giving me the time and say, right, Sean, you've done this wrong. How, why not try this way? And again, for me, the word criticism is just to get better. Someone's trying to help you and look at it in a positive.
36:20Adrian Morley:The next one I want to cover, it's something we talked about. What does good look like for you? You'd gone away, you'd come back, you have the tools. If you don't have that experience, If you don't have people around you who are good, where do you go to find that?
36:34Barrie McDermott:So for me, again, going back to the working days, so I was very lucky that I spent a lot of time with my brother. My older brother, Robert, were very close. So what we used to do is when we went back down to championship from a Super League level, we made sure we went to the gym in the morning at 6 o 'clock. We went and worked all day on a building yard, and then went training at night. So we maintained our level of professionalism, our integrity. so it was an outside influence for me that kept me on the straight and narrow and kept doing the right thing when nobody was watching. Moz?
37:05Shaun Lunt:I was fortunate that almost every year I was involved in the international camp Great Britain or England so you can't fail to learn off the best players in the country so players like Andy Farrell you just watch them how they go about the business turning up for training early doing extras and that had an effect on me if the best players don't rely on your natural talent if the best players in the world that are doing extra it's not by fluke it's not by chance it's by hard work and and putting them extras in and if you haven't
37:36Adrian Morley:got it in those people around you you go and seek it you go and find it because it's an old adage you become the sum total of the people you spend the most amount of time with so choose those people very wisely and very carefully i just want to cover an imposter syndrome and people will look at this and think they're full of confidence them guys but an imposter syndrome sticks with you throughout your life, whenever you move, whenever you change environment, all those people that you're comfortable with. So how did you overcome imposter syndrome?
38:05Shaun Lunt:Well, it took a bit of experience. So I've mentioned when I was playing first team, I'm going to get found out here next game, really nervous. You know, they're going to see me for what I am. And it weren't until, as I say, probably a dozen games, that's when the penny dropped for me. And I wish to myself, why did I just think of that from day one? But it's very hard to judge it and it's very hard to kid yourself, basically. But it is tough. It's positive reinforcement, that's what it is. It is, it is. And again, the same thing happened when I got my first England cap. What am I doing here? You know, I'm in an England team.
38:38Shaun Lunt:This is ridiculous. But then after a few games international, I deserve to be here. You know, I'm here on merit. So it's a normal human response. But it's a tough one. But just be confident and think the person who picture in that squad, they saw something in you that possibly you didn't see yourself just embrace it just think i deserve
39:00Adrian Morley:to be here and go for it trust in yourself think positive reinforce those positive thoughts and just go at it with a kind of attitude exactly lunty is that is that the imposter syndrome that
39:11Barrie McDermott:you felt is that something that you buy into yeah it's something that i hid very well as well and it wasn't until again i started to mature i became a father and i started realizing you know i i am worthy of this the reasons that I'm there is because of the little things that I do here you know the small things that I do day in day out and then I was like there's no fluke that I'm here I'm actually like again you mentioned it in episode one about making your own look one of your former coaches and again it's the harder you work the luckier you become at the end of the day so that for me was just sort of solidifying that you are here you do deserve to be here and it's not it's not by fluke look at what you've been through to get here so give yourself a pat on the back and
39:49Adrian Morley:and keep doing what got you got you there yeah and almost your philosophy is those 10 000 hours know that it's gonna it's going to be at the end of the journey when you'll have all the tools but
39:58Barrie McDermott:don't lose faith while you're on the way yeah exactly like i said everyone wants everyone these days wants everything yesterday but that's not how it works no again the old cheesy line room wasn't built in a day nor was it knocked down in a day and i do believe in that and that's the attitude that i have in life just one day at a time one block at a time and just keep keep moving forward.
40:18Adrian Morley:So that's it, lads. Second episode in the bank. We're no longer rookies.
40:23Shaun Lunt:No, hopefully it was informative and educational.
40:27Adrian Morley:And now that I've popped my cherry, I can go and sell on me mates. Very good. I think being respected might be a bit further down the track for us, though. Yes. Hope you enjoyed the show. Thank you to our friends at Elect. Subscribe and like. I hope to see you next time for Changing Rooms. You
From the publisher
Welcome back to Changing Rooms, where Barrie McDermott lines up once again with Adrian Morley and Shaun Lunt for more candid conversations - from the pitch and the places where real life hits hardest.
This week the lads rewind to a moment most of us remember vividly – your first day.
The first job, the first training session, the first time you walk into a room full of people who seem bigger, smarter, scarier, or simply already belong.
From building sites and warehouses to elite Super League changing rooms, the boys share stories of early graft, unwritten rules, and the quiet panic of wondering: “Am I good enough to be here?”
They unpack the learning curves that shaped their careers: how to handle criticism without crumbling, why hard work becomes its own skill, and how the path from rookie to respected is hardly ever straightforward.
Also, the lads take on the challenge of naming the great dynasties of rugby league – those teams who weren’t just talented, but tough, connected, and built on standards that never dropped, even on the bad days.
The takeaway?
Whether it’s the dressing room, an office, a factory floor or your first shift pulling pints – we all start as the rookie. But with patience, curiosity, a willingness to learn and a backbone that doesn’t fold at the first knock, you’ll go further than you think.
Subscribe, dive in, and welcome back to Changing Rooms!
Timestamps:
(0:56) Introduction - First Jobs and Humble Beginnings
(2:45) Stepping Up & Joining the Pro Ranks
(4:49) Sink or Swim — Fitting In and Early Challenges
(5:51) Finding Mentors and Learning Fast
(9:24) Inside the Team Culture, Circles, and Respect
(12:38) Big Moments and Leveling Up
(20:26 ) Lessons for Rookies — What Every Newcomer Should Know
(24:35) Rivalries, Dream Teams, and Epic Nights
(33:46) Formulating the Blueprint of a Successful Team
(39:00) Full-Time — Takeaways