Encore: Inside Joe Weisenthal's brain

24:32Do you think that exists now? There's a leveling now. And so as you look across all the industries you cover and go, oh, if I'm if I'm new young Joe in 2026 and I'm coming in basically knowing nothing, where would I want to be? Where my lack of knowledge would not be a hindrance? You know, I think it's a little different. I mean, one of the things that I ask myself sometimes is when I look around the landscape, is there any place where they're doing something really cool and I'm not? You know, or I wish I were there. And by and large, yes, there's not really. I mean, there's all kinds of media properties that I admire, et cetera, but there's not really, you know.

25:11I even meant beyond outside of media, like whether it's like. So the one thing I was going to, the one thing I'll say more specifically, I do think, especially in the age of like substacks specifically, that there still are opportunities for someone to just sort of become the ax, to use a Henry Blodgett word, on some. It's A-X-E. It's the old Wall Street term. Yeah, yeah. For the dominant analyst. The one who just sort of, you know what, I'm going to own this lane. I'm going to own this topic. And I do think, you know, someone could do it and the people do do it. And like, you know what, I'm just going to talk all the time about semiconductors.

25:45I'm just going to post all the data as it is. Or, you know, the person who becomes the, they just, you know, we're just going to focus on Wall Street purchases of single family homes or something like that. So I think there are opportunities to carve out lands for someone sufficiently motivated still. I do want to come back to Substack. But is it 2012 with the Times Magazine profile of you? That was 2012. Joe Weisenthal versus the Internet? Was that the title? Yeah, yeah. The photo is you. You're awake and in bed with a laptop. Which was staged, by the way. It's obviously staged because your wife is faux sleeping next to you.

26:19People thought that that was a real photo. Well, people should grow up and understand how the world works. But it's an amazing article because, one, it's just a great profile of you in a moment of time. And it's also very clearly a New York Times writer going, what the fuck is going on in the world? Not just you. And he's describing you as a weird character who gets up at four in the morning, basically tweets and types all day long, never puts your phone aside until you pass out and you barely see your wife. And really, and there were other articles like that, not about you saying like— No, there were a lot of bloggers in the dark.

26:50Bloggers are dying doing this. But it was also just like, how can this thing be a product? How can this be a business? Just kind of marveling at it. Like, also, this guy's like obsessed with speed and he's obsessed with, you know, getting the jobs number out before anybody else. But anyone who actually cares about that jobs number has a Bloomberg terminal. Right. And they get that jobs terminal before Joe even tweets it. So, like, to what end? Do you ever go back and look at that time and go, oh, what I was doing back then made sense at the time, but it's fundamentally wrong? or actually what I was doing back then made sense and it's what I still want to be doing.

27:25Maybe less, you're not quite as frenetic as you were, right? You're not blogging, you're doing a podcast. I have two children now, so there's no way. Two kids and you do a podcast a few times a week, right? And a newsletter a few times a week, so. I definitely don't go back and think anything I was doing was fundamentally wrong. I mean, there are things, you know, in retrospect, maybe I was commenting, you know, there are certainly articles I wrote that don't hold up or I wish I had known more. But by and large, I thought it was—I still think it was the right—it was the right approach at that moment.

27:56That cadence, that just sort of always on. I just want to, you know—this is going to sound so obnoxious. Great. But—and look, getting profiled in 2012 in The New York Times, it was incredible, et cetera. The only thing that I—the only thing I—and I thought this at the time, and I was really proud of the work we were doing at Business Insider. I thought it was good. I don't think it was just I sort of resented a little bit this idea that we were just high velocity clickbait. We certainly wanted clicks and we certainly put spin on the ball. And you're certainly high velocity. We're certainly high velocity.

28:35But I truly think, you know, I truly thought and still think that all of us in that environment, I was proud of the capital J journalism that we were doing. I thought it was good. I thought it was informative. I thought we were bringing voices. I think what he's poking at is like where you would go, I can't remember what the example was, was Jobs Report or some report where you go, calamity. And then you write a new thing five minutes later because you've thought about it five more minutes ago. Maybe not. And then, you know, an hour later, actually, the thing I said an hour ago was wrong, which on the one hand, you can say, well, that's just someone learning as they go.

29:09I think you said something to that effect. Our audience likes that. And then a normal journalist would say, why don't you just figure out the right thing and then publish that? I think, you know, look, I mean, look, that's not wrong either. I think if you look at the market itself, I mean, the market, say, within the first hour or the first 15 minutes of a report is always whiplashy. I think if you look at CNBC or any financial TV, CNBC, Bloomberg, there's a range of opinions. The numbers came out. They beat their estimates, but the stock's down. Why is that? They throw out an initial idea and then it gets massaged and then eventually there's a conventional wisdom minutes to an hour later.

29:50It's like that different. It's just that we were sort of doing talk radio. I mean, yeah, we were doing talk radio in the written text. And then you go from there to Bloomberg, which at the time confused me a little bit because Bloomberg was very staid, had a very staid reputation. Yeah. You don't are not a staid person. And you also additionally confusing to me was you were going on TV. You did not seem like someone who one wanted to be on TV or that would be successful on TV. And I was confused about was that that you did you go so you could go on TV? So I'll tell you the story, which is I think so.

30:31I went to Bloomberg in October 2014. I think they had first reached out to me sometime in 2013 about a TV thing. You know, I think the sort of the gap between at the time Bloomberg sort of stayed approach and me, I mean, that was part of the appeal for them, right? They wanted— We're going to get this weirdo in. We're going to get this digital person who gets the internet and all that stuff and has a big social media presence. I think that was part of the appeal for them for sure. The original pitch was TV. And to your point, like, I didn't have any aspirations for TV. I like the Internet, and I didn't watch very much TV by and large.

31:11You know, we had it on in the office, but I never thought that was the medium of the future. We had some chats, and then eventually the sort of the offer was do TV and have this role doing digital within the newsroom and help them figure out getting the Internet and stuff like that. And the other thing that was going on at the time was Business Insider by 2014 had gotten very broad. So, you know, it started off with you, Silicon Alley Insider, and then Clusterstock. But then, you know, there was, by that point, there was sports, there was lifestyle, there was career advice, et cetera. And throughout summer of 2014, I sort of had this decision to make, which is if I was going to stay in the market's lane, which is what I really love, my role at Business Insider would get more and more narrow because the site was expanding so far horizontally.

32:05Or if I wanted to sort of stay in a place of prominence at Business Insider, I would have to start broadening my interests, which I didn't really want to do. So there were already some structural things at BI by that point that made it a slightly less natural home for me. Were you concerned at all about Business Insider's prospects? In retrospect, Henry said, well, there were multiple times where we nearly couldn't hit payroll. By 2014, not really. I thought it was great. It's just it was becoming a publication that was different from the one that I joined. It was also, you know, I loved posting directly to the site.

32:39But by 2014, there was editing, there was editors and all that stuff. I hated editors, you know. So then I was already a little bit sort of thinking about what my next thing was. But there was nothing else obvious out there. And then the reason that the Bloomberg opportunity appealed to me was if someone – if another publication had just said, let's do digital stuff, I was like, I already have a great job in digital media. And so I don't need to leave BI really. But if – and if the TV alone thing, that wouldn't appeal to me because I didn't want to leave digital. But the opportunity for both – Do both.

33:16I was like, okay, if I don't say yes to this role, then what am I ever going to say yes to? Because, you know, you think, all right, if I don't say yes to this, then I'm really here for the long haul because no one else can put together that combination. And even though I didn't really aspire to do TV, I thought not many people get a chance to co-host a TV show. So just for the life experience, why not? So what did you learn about your TV during that experience? Or what did you learn about yourself doing TV? I mean, I did have fun doing it. It was fun. live TV is fun. From my perspective, TV is a lot of effort for a modest amount of journalistic output.

33:55I mean, you know, the combing your hair and putting on a tie and getting makeup done and all of these things. What? A lot of people are involved. A lot of people are involved. And then, you know, and then you have a conversation with someone that maybe lasts six or seven minutes or something like that, sometimes longer. You can do depth on TV. But I will say the Bloomberg, the people who are on air at Bloomberg are very smart. They're very smart. They're not talking heads. They're not just people who can with a strong jaw who can deliver. Yeah, yeah, totally. But it is a lot of time involved for what ends up being a fairly modest public footprint.

34:34the sort of light bulb moment for me when thinking about, I guess, I think it was in 2021. So by that point, we could back up at some point, talk about the genesis of the podcast, but we had started the podcast in 2015 as a side, side project. Both me and my co-host Tracy had, you know, multiple other roles within the newsroom. But then the head of TV at the time had this very good suggestion, which he said, you know, on days when you have a podcast episode out where it works, you should invite the guest on TV for a segment and talk to them live and then say, and if you want to hear a full, you know, 45-minute conversation with that person, listen to the Outlaws podcast.

35:15I was like, ah, it's a very good idea, very obvious. And that was really nice. But that was the moment I realized those weren't very sad. You know, You have this really in-depth conversation with someone. Right. Now it's with a dumb version. And then a week later, you do this really condensed version. And it's like, I just like doing the podcast so much more. I really like the time that you get to spend with the person. And that was sort of the beginning of, no, this is the podcast is really what I want to do full time. You're doing it in 2015. You said it didn't click. Yeah. 2021. Yeah. Six years of it not clicking.

35:49Yeah. Why are you doing it for six years if it's not clicking? why is Bloomberg letting you do it for six years? Because for several years, Bloomberg didn't have a podcast team. And so there was no one paying attention to the fact that no one was listening, which was the biggest gift. It was incredible luck because we really didn't know what we were doing. I can't go back and listen to those old episodes. It's too painful. We did have a few, you know, I may be exaggerating a little bit. We actually put on a live show in, I want to say November 2019, right before the pandemic and a bunch of people came out.

36:21People were actually starting to listen a little bit. By late 2018, 2019, we started getting momentum. But we really went years with just, it was crickets. And the only reason we survived is because - Why were you doing it if there wasn't an audience? I think it was fun. I think we really liked, it was a break. It was a different format. I mean, it's kind of easy. It's fun to talk to people. Yeah, I know. We're not supposed to say that. This is very hard work. Joe, this is the hardest work there is. But it was nice. I mean, especially, you know, you're in a studio. It's relaxing. There's not cameras all over you and stuff.

37:02Oh, the other thing, too. So when we started, you know, I mentioned we have an episode coming out about the history of Rope. Most of our episodes were like that in the beginning. So we're sort of consciously off the news. It's like let's just do sort of curiosities. And we talk about historic. We did multiple episodes, for example, in probably 2016 about the Florida real estate bubble of the 1920s. You know, there's not stuff that actually I think to answer the question specifically, the podcast allowed for a really good outlet to do to talk about things that were not in the news. And that was just really fun.

37:39We'll be right back with Joe Weisenthal. But first, a word from a sponsor. Thank you. There's the part of me that everyone sees. I'm Howie Mandel, the comedian. Apparently, I know what funny is. Funny bought me a house, but I also know what isn't funny. OCD. I've lived with OCD my entire life, and people throw the term around like it's no big deal. But OCD is severe, often debilitating. It's a mental health condition that involves unrelented, unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character, your beliefs, even your safety. General therapy can help with some things, but for OCD, it can actually make things worse.

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39:47And we're back. And so now you have this very successful thing. You guys had a big fancy 10-year party at Nine Orchard, very fancy hotel. That's right. Very expensive. You are the thing that all the media companies say they want, which is a brand. Yeah. They want these people who are brands. They're looking in the world of sub stacks and going, oh, how do we get so-and-so who's got a substack to come work with us? Or how do we generate the next person who could be that person? But you seem like you would also be in really, really good fit for that substack lifestyle. You could take what you're doing and go start a substack or whatever.

40:28Your podcast, I'm sure, could monetize really well if you took it out. However you and Tracy have talked about it. Why are you still at Bloomberg instead of going off being a solo practitioner? or it seems like we're in a moment right now that is really built for your skills specifically? I mean, the honest truth is that Bloomberg is just, you know, first of all— They pay really well. We'll stipulate that. It's a really natural editorial home for us. I mean, you know, you mentioned, and it's very real, that lots of publications, they want to figure out a way where they could still be a—the umbrella brand means something, but also the individual sub-brand also means something.

41:06There's such a - And they've been, historically, they were very uneasy with that. Yeah, totally. What happens if we build up so-and-so, then they go off and leave, and then they've taken all their brand equity, and we're screwed. Now they want the solo proprietor as a brand. Yeah. The thing, it's a really good fit. I mean, it's, I mean, one of the things that a lot of people listen to, you know, we have a lot of terminal users who are fans of the podcast. It's a really natural alignment of, you know, we do have this sort of broad mass appeal, and we have a lot of listeners who are not in finance at all.

41:38But because we also have a really dedicated professional finance audience, like it's just a, it's a really natural home for us from an editorial perspective. But I'm also assuming that you have run the numbers and or the people have come to you and run the numbers and said, if we just port what you're doing right now and you just own this podcast or you and Tracy own the pod, whatever it is, you can make 4x what you're making at Bloomberg, blah, blah, blah, whatever the numbers are. In theory, there should be a lot of opportunity available for you financially that could say, well, and the Bloomberg people can still listen to us because they already know where we are, et cetera.

42:17Presumably, you've done those numbers. I don't really believe any of those numbers. I genuinely don't. And when you think about the various, you know, the costs involved and the number of people, you know, we have three full-time producers working on the podcast. And you start thinking about all of these headaches, like, I don't want to deal with that. I don't want to deal with renting, you know, just like, I really like it. You don't want to run your own business. You like the comfort of having someone else run the business and you be the talent. I suppose I do. I mean, that's not a bad thing.

42:46No, it is really easy and nice to be within a large organization, a large organization that It has a lot of resources. And again, a large organization whose whole mission so fits with ours. You know, I could imagine, like, I do think, I genuinely can't overstate the importance of how well we fit within that organization. Honestly, even just having access to Bloomberg terminals, which would be another whole thing. It's a really nice home. And then there's so much expertise within the organization about all these topics. Not all the time, but, you know, we often have people from Bloomberg contribute in some way or reporters or, you know, there's all the Bloomberg B &F people who know all about energy, et cetera.

43:37It just fits really well editorially. And that makes life very easy and makes it very natural. Good for you for knowing what you want. Yeah, it's what I want. And also having what you want. Yeah, it's pretty great. Pretty good. Yeah. What do you think, we've kind of talked about it, but what do you think makes the show work for an average listener? Is it the broad knowledge that you and Tracy have? Because you can jump in, you can talk about energy, you can talk about the history of rope. Yeah. Is it your lack of knowledge that sort of makes them feel like they're learning with you? What is the appeal?

44:12I think, I mean, the lack of knowledge, you know, I do think helps. You know, I think neither of us ever really were informed and, you know, several of the things we've talked about, we've been covering our entire adult lives and we know quite a bit about. But I think by and large, it's that the learning along with the audience, I think, really is a big part of it. I think that's a huge aspect of it. Just explain this. And the fact that, again, our sort of mission is to ask those simple questions, clarifying questions that somehow work where the professional audience doesn't feel talked down to, because I think they appreciate it as well.

44:55But also the sort of general public audience, the nonprofessional audience also feels like those questions land at a level. I think one of the things that we tell our guests prior to the recording when we're sitting down, we always say we have the most sophisticated audience in the world. Feel free to go as deep and technical as you can. You know, imagine you're at a conference of your industry peers and that is the sort of register that you should be speaking at. But when you say an acronym or you refer to something, we don't know what it is. We're going to stop. You don't even explain yield curve to your audience.

45:30But if it's a more sophisticated or more esoteric term, you'll stop them. And I think we have a pretty good intuition for like when we say, wait, pause. What does that mean exactly? And that's the kind of thing that I think you can only sort of build up with practice. And that way you can get the sophisticated conversation without totally going over everyone's heads. What happens when that level of sophistication comes up against, I'll just use shorthand, the Trump administration, chaos, right? You go back to April of last year with Tariff Day, and there's whatever Donald Trump said about the rationale for the tariffs.

46:07There's whatever math they did or didn't do to come up with the tariffs. There's the fact that then the tariffs move around day to day, and then it comes up with new rationale. And so everything that you would learn that a normal rational person would learn to assess how markets work, how economics work, kind of goes out the window because there's just – what's the John Mulaney bit? There's the horse in the hospital running through the hospital where everything that you would normally bring to bear kind of doesn't work because you're working with some kind of unknowable psychology. I think the answer is having good intuitions about guests and having talked to people for years and years that we just trust.

46:46And again, yeah, like April 2025, that was a wild time, et cetera. But the good news. It was very exciting for you, I assume, right? I mean, we had—I remember the week before Liberation Day and everyone felt it was coming. I remember we talked to the team. I was like, this is going to be a huge month for us. This is going to be a historic month for us. So, you know, lock in, everyone, because we're going to work like crazy, and we're going to get as many episodes out as possible, and we're going to—yeah, we're not going to take any breaks for the whole month. But I think what we could do—and everyone had a million questions, and no one really knew what was going on, et cetera.

47:24But on any given day, I think the one thing that we really had was we had people that we liked and knew, who we trusted, who we thought had good judgment, who were informed and understood things. And the thing that we did was found good people that could help make sense of the world. I was following it, not nearly as closely as you were, but it seemed like the commentary that was essentially Donald Trump's crazy. This goes against every sort of like basic understanding of how economics and trade works. And then anyone who defended it was just sort of a Trump flunky. And so it kind of beyond like they had to say Donald Trump knows what he's doing, regardless of whether that was true or not.

48:04And so there was kind of pointless to talk to them. And then after you talk to the first couple people who say Donald Trump doesn't know what he's doing, what else can you learn? Well, so that's a good example of like, okay, it's one thing to say, none of this makes sense. This is going to wreck the economy, right? So maybe that's the April 8th conversation. But by the April 15th conversation, we were talking to clothing retailers and just asking, well, what are you doing right now? How are you thinking about your orders for the next year? And then you could step out of the conversation, is this good, bad or wise.

48:38This is just reality. So how are people dealing with that reality? So a lot of our really good episodes from the time were really just talking to various businesses who didn't actually have the luxury of debating whether this is good or bad or smart or whatever. They just had to live in the world, which is not that different from spring and summer 2020, you know, when the lockdowns happened, et cetera. A bunch of people didn't have the luxury of debating things. They just had to figure out, well, how am I going to keep my business open? How am I going to place orders? How am I going to do X? So in a way, we're really in our comfort zone there because we had sort of realized that there's all kinds of people, supply chain people, et cetera, who can just answer how is this working now?

49:21Not is it a good thing? Yeah. And so we certainly had those conversations. Is it good? Is it bad? Et cetera. But our best ones at the time was like, let's talk to the shipping guy we talked to in 2020 about what's happening at the ports. Let's talk to the retailer about how they're placing the orders, et cetera, because they didn't have any, you know, again, they don't have the luxury of debating it. We'll be right back with Joe Weisenthal, but first a word from a sponsor. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for$15 a month is back.

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51:26or don't, for conversations about what creates value and what destroys it. It's a business show. It's a marketing show. Creator destroys the show that argues. They've always been the same thing. From the Vox Media Podcast Network and the Wisdomist Company. New episodes drop weekly on YouTube and your favorite podcast app.

51:53And we're back. One of the things I wanted listeners to get out of this was one tidbit of information they could use at a cocktail party or whatever qualifies for a cocktail party in 2026. So let's make it a terrorist question. Okay. April 2025, total chaos. All the smart people are saying this is going to blow up the economy. Trump tacos on a bunch of stuff. But still a lot of those terrorists exist. The economy has not collapsed. Right. So what did all of the people who thought the tariff regime was going to collapse the economy get wrong in April 2025? I would say – I mean, so look, obviously they came down to a significant degree.

52:40So I think you have to start there. But I think – and again, I would say it goes back to the lesson from 2020. Businesses are incredibly resilient, or many of them. And American companies are incredibly dynamic, and the ones that exist are extremely well run, and they find ways to improvise and pivot quickly. I mean, you probably remember having the same questions in early 2020s, like how is any restaurant going to stay in business, et cetera? But then the restaurants are like, you know what? We're going to shift to takeout, and we're going to put up plexiglass, and they were open the next week, right?

53:20And they found a way to do it. And all of the big firms, you know, they were pretty surprisingly agile in retrospect in the midst of what was the biggest global coordinated shock in history, the pandemic. And I think I've come to think this over time that, you know, people may underestimate the resilience of a well-run American business. Well-run American companies where the people are paid a lot of money to deal with these disruptions. Given that we're going to have a disruption again, who knows when, that we're going to have one, how are you going to use that thinking? Because what you want, you want to overlearn the old lessons.

54:03I don't want to overlearn the lessons. That's right. It's really tough. And I do think, I mean, the big lesson that people overlearned was sort of assuming after COVID that we would have some sort of long quasi-recession or something like that because that was the experience of 2008, 2009 and the slow growth after that. You know, it's really hard to know because the next big shock probably won't look like the last one in any respect. And, you know, I do think, OK, the resilience of American companies is a very important thing to internalize. There's nothing that can really, you know, company, if you have like a broad general economic downturn where spending really slows down sustained wage dramatically, a lot of companies are going to go out of business, regardless of how much Elon, the management team has and so forth.

55:03So, you know, there is a limit to how much creativity can save you. And I also, by the way, you know, I think it's important, the story of the tariffs is not over by any stretch. And one of the things, you know, after the initial shock, you probably I remember it's like, are the tariffs going to set off a wave of inflation was the big question. And my view at the time and one of the things that I think has held up well is, and I did say this going back to last spring, which is that I didn't think the tariffs would be inflationary per se. The way I conceived of it is they would raise the cost of doing business.

55:42They would make business. It was like throwing some sand at the gears of business. And I think that is true. So it's not that they necessarily – that consumer prices automatically go up in lockstep, but that doing business in America becomes harder. And you definitely see that. When some of those costs do go to consumers. And then some of them definitely do. Or companies eat some of the costs. And yet, like, you know, the manufacturing sector in the United States has really struggled in the last year. for, I would say, tariffs are definitely a part of it, because even if the idea is to help American manufacturing, any sort of reasonably complex business is going to have inputs and raw materials that they import.

56:22And, you know, you see it, you know, we did, we were in Alaska last year, and we talked to this guy who runs the biggest furniture chain. You went to Alaska. Yeah, yeah. No, we like talked to this guy, and he said, you know, so we were asking him how he dealt with the tariffs. And he's like, well, we've shifted some of our imports from China to India, but even the Indian exporters, they don't necessarily want to make commitments for a year out. Maybe they only want to make commitments six months out because they don't know if the tariff schedule is going to change. So this is the kind of thing where he can live day to day or month to month with shifting imports from China to India.

57:00But the business is not going to be as efficient because they can't make orders as far in advance as they could. So I think there's a lot of little things like that where they don't amount to a big bang, but they have this sort of degrading effect on American productivity. And I don't think that story is over yet in terms of how it shakes out. So we established at the beginning of this conversation that you're going to keep doing this no matter what because you're just sort of built for it. So whether you're not, you're at Bloomberg or anywhere else, this is sort of what you're going to do. But I also know that you are a country music aficionado slash aspiring songwriter, guitar player.

57:39Yeah. Tell us about that. I love all my life I've written music, or at least since high school. I love songwriting. I love playing music. I love performing it. A couple of years ago, I think maybe it was 2022, I had a birthday party and I put on some country music. And my friend who is there is like, who doesn't like country, said, I'm going to drink till I like country. And I was like, oh, that's a great title for a song. And so I wrote one over the weekend and I uploaded it to SoundCloud. I played it into my phone. I uploaded it to SoundCloud. And someone from Nashville reached out and like, that's a really good song.

58:16I could maybe sell this to an artist to get it recorded. And I was like, oh, my God, it's like the dream. That's all I want. I would sacrifice my entire journalism career just to have one of my songs be played by a recording artist. It didn't sell. The label put a hold on the song, and then they shopped it around to their artists, and none of them bit on it. But then I really got the bug to get back into music. And then some friends and I, we started a band called Light Sweet Crude, and we played a few shows. We played shows in 2023, 2024, last year. I keep playing. You know, it's a sight. That's not your music I hear in the odd lots.

58:56People have always asked, do you write? No, we didn't write that. And so is that a second slash third career for you, or is that just a hobby? Unfortunately, I think it's just a hobby. I mean, it is a dream still to have a song that I wrote get recorded by someone. I love songwriting. And I don't think my voice, I couldn't really be as successful. My singing voice isn't that strong. I can sing, but it's not really, it's not quite at the level. All right, channels listeners, if you are in a position to help Joe achieve another one of his dreams, let me know. This is the one that if anyone out there, please just find an artist who will perform one of my songs.

59:34That's all I want. Done and done. Joe Weisenthal, thank you for your time. Thanks. That was a blast. Thanks again to Joe Weisenthal. He is a fun guy to talk to. Highly recommend. Thanks to our advertisers and my producer, Charlotte Silver, and to you guys. See you soon.

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