In short
Podcast Episode Summary: Jeff Bezos Used To Be In Love with The Washington Post. What Happened?
Podcast
Channels with Peter Kafka Host: Peter Kafka Guest: Erik Wemple Air Date: [Insert Date] Transcript Summary: This episode explores the complex relationship between Jeff Bezos and The Washington Post, examining the drastic changes the publication has experienced since Bezos's acquisition in 2013.
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Key Themes & Discussions
- Bezos's Acquisition and Initial Success
- Purchase of The Washington Post (2013): Jeff Bezos bought the paper for $250 million when it was struggling and undergoing significant challenges.
- Initial Improvements:
- Investment in technology and staff led to a revitalization of the publication.
- The Post saw a profitable period attributed to increased audience engagement, especially during Trump's presidency.
- Recent Cuts and Layoffs
- Massive Layoffs: Over 300 positions were eliminated, reducing newsroom staff to about 500, significantly below the peak of 2000+ employees.
- Sections Affected: Major cuts included the sports section and international reporting, with a rationale focused on aligning coverage with audience interests.
- Management's Justification: The stated goal was to "save the institution" by making cuts deemed necessary for survival.
- Changing Relationship Between Bezos and The Post
- Shift in Bezos's Involvement: Initially, Bezos was seen as a hands-off owner, allowing journalists to operate independently. However, recent trends suggest increased intervention, especially concerning editorial direction.
- Bezos's Political Alignment: His shifting statements about Donald Trump have raised concerns about potential biases in coverage.
- Financial Struggles and Strategic Missteps
- Report of Significant Losses: The Washington Post has reported substantial financial losses, raising questions about management decisions and hiring practices.
- Overstaffing Concerns: The organization expanded too rapidly, leading to unsustainable growth and subsequent layoffs.
- Future of The Washington Post
- Uncertainty Ahead: The episode concludes with concerns about whether the paper can stabilize or will face further cuts.
- Lack of Clear Strategy: Staff morale appears low, with limited confidence in management’s ability to navigate the current media landscape effectively.
Key Takeaways
- Impact of Bezos's Ownership: While Bezos initially brought investment and revitalization, the current management approach has led to skepticism about the future.
- Challenges in the Media Landscape: The Post is not alone in facing difficulties; many traditional newspapers struggle with digital transitions and audience retention.
- Potential for Recovery: A call for innovative revenue strategies and re-engagement with the core mission of journalism is necessary for the Post’s future success.
Notable Quotes
- "We're going to save the Washington Post. We need to cut it to save it." - Management's rationale for layoffs.
- "Flat is the new up." - Wemple's take on the state of the newsroom.
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Conclusion This episode provides a critical examination of the turmoil currently facing The Washington Post, once seen as a model of successful media ownership by Bezos. As the discussion unfolds, the contrasting periods of prosperity and crisis serve as a stark reminder of the volatile nature of the media landscape today.
For more insights, listen to the full episode on [Vox Media Podcast Network](#) or your preferred podcast platform.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VORecent Layoffs at the Washington Post
2:45 to 3:43
Understanding the recent layoffs at the Washington Post and their implications.
“So he's been able to see the effects of Bezos on that paper firsthand.”
The Rationale Behind the Cuts
3:43 to 5:00
Explore the reasons given by the Washington Post for their newsroom cuts.
“the Post, although the cuts went across the country at a 30 % clip.”
Bezos' Purchase and Initial Impact
5:00 to 6:46
Learn about Jeff Bezos' acquisition of the Washington Post and his initial impact.
“We're going to save the Washington Post.”
The Post's Transformation Under Bezos
6:46 to 8:14
Discover how Bezos transformed the Washington Post after acquiring it.
“As you mentioned, he bought the post for$250 million in 2013.”
Profitability and the Trump Era
8:14 to 11:15
Examine the Washington Post's profitability during the Trump administration.
“It wasn't like, you know, a bunch of laggards.”
Post-Trump Challenges and Financial Losses
11:15 to 14:03
Analyze the challenges faced by the Washington Post after the Trump presidency.
“This is why you want a tech billionaire to come save your local paper.”
Financial Challenges at The Washington Post
14:03 to 15:56
Discusses the financial issues faced by The Washington Post under Bezos's management.
“Another consideration is that the digital advertising market sort of dried up alongside, right?”
Bezos's Influence on Editorial Direction
15:56 to 20:37
Explores how Jeff Bezos's management decisions affected the editorial stance of The Washington Post.
“you know how I was fighting with Donald Trump during his first administration?”
Impact of Non-Endorsement Decision
20:37 to 21:15
Analyzes the consequences of the decision not to endorse Kamala Harris on subscriptions.
“know, you need to hold us blameless for this because this is a wound that we that not authored by us.”
The Future of Bezos and The Washington Post
24:28 to 28:05
Contemplates the reasons behind Bezos's continued ownership of The Washington Post and its implications.
“In the context of Bezos tilting towards Trump, in that Matt Murray memo I referenced up top of this discussion, there's a line in the Murray memo.”
Show all 16 chapters
Bezos and the Washington Post's Current State
28:05 to 29:05
Discussion on Jeff Bezos's evolving relationship with the Washington Post and its challenges.
“In fact, I'm pretty sure it isn't as strong as it once was.”
Success Stories in Digital Media
29:05 to 30:27
Analyzing the success of Washington D.C.-focused publications and their business models.
“Let's talk about where the post goes next.”
The Events Business and Revenue Strategies
30:27 to 31:46
Exploring how events and sponsorships are crucial for media revenue generation.
“And a lot of them have done it through events.”
The Washington Post's Missed Opportunities
31:46 to 32:55
Debate over the Washington Post's strategies and potential revenue streams.
“And the answer I got back then was, that's not what we do.”
Staff Sentiment and Management Challenges
32:55 to 34:11
Discussion on staff morale at the Post amidst management's strategic challenges.
“They're just seeing cuts, cut after cut.”
Future Predictions for The Washington Post
34:11 to 35:46
Predictions on the future size and stability of the Washington Post.
“And I think, Don, nobody's really figured out the problem of how to transition a regional newspaper into this thriving beast of a news organization.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Peter Kafka:Oh, hey. Sorry, love to chat, but I'm busy shopping all the rollbacks and more at Walmart. Grab a what? Cancel that. I gotta grab these big savings on the Walmart app online and in-store like right now. See who? Nope, unavail. The only thing I want to see are the prices just lowered on Tech Home and all my must-haves. Wait, you want to shop Walmart with me? Alrighty, I think I can fit you in. Adobe Acrobat Studio, your team's home base. Collaborate within a shared PDF space. You've got your docs, your plans, your specs. And then invite the crew to build what's next.
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2:22Peter Kafka:richest men in the world. I also wanted to talk about the history of Bezos and the Post, which is more complicated than I think a lot of people realize. Because for many years, Jeff Bezos and the Washington Post were a success story. Maybe the best possible outcome for a billionaire buying a media company. Now things are very different. We have the best possible guest on for this. That is Eric Wemple, who joined the New York Times last year to cover media and for many years before that cover media at the Washington Post. So he's been able to see the effects of Bezos on that paper firsthand. Let's hear from him now.
2:58Peter Kafka:Here's me talking to Eric Wemple.
3:04Peter Kafka:I'm here with Eric Wemple from the New York Times. He's been there less than a year and forever preceding that. He was at the Washington Post. So he is the perfect person to talk about what is happening at the Post. Thanks for joining, Eric.
3:16Erik Wemple:Oh, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
3:18Peter Kafka:Um, anyone who listens to this podcast knows there were massive layoffs at the Washington Post on Wednesday. We're recording Thursday. But let's just set, uh, let's set the level here. What did the Post do yesterday? How many folks were let go? And why did the Post say they were doing that?
3:35Erik Wemple:Um, so as best we can tell, there are about 300 people, um, let go from the newsroom of the Post, although the cuts went across the country at a 30 % clip. So it's 300 in the newsroom. As far as I can tell, there are somewhere between 770, 830, about 800 people in the newsroom. So that's a cut of more than a third in the newsroom staff. It's kind of a cataclysm in that respect because it essentially brings the newsroom down to around 500. And when Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post in 2013 for$250 million, the staff was around$570 million. And even$570 million,$550 million, somewhere in the mid -$500 million.
4:21Erik Wemple:And that was down in turn from the peak during the early aughts under executive editor Len Downey. So it had already been on the downswing then, and now we're back down at that point.
4:41Peter Kafka:So they're wiping out whole sections like sports, gutting most of their international reporting. What is the rationale, the Post has said, for the cuts? They're cutting stuff across the paper, like you said, but they're also hammering specific sections are just going away. What is the rationale for what they're doing?
4:57Erik Wemple:Well, the short version is to save the institution. That's the short version. We're going to save the Washington Post. We need to cut it to save it. Yep. And, you know, that's not new in the newspaper business. That's not a new thought. And, you know, maybe it works sometimes, but it's problematic, obviously. The longer version of the answer is, well, we look carefully at what people want. We look carefully at what people are clicking on, carefully at, you know, sort of what they're reading. And this, we are aligning the newsroom with what people really want. And so they got rid of essentially or either got rid of or really reduced, scaled back the international coverage, the sports coverage and the Metro coverage.
5:44Erik Wemple:And so and so the sports department is pretty much folded up. They have a few reporters that they've essentially migrated over to the feature section to write on the cultural aspects of sports. Metro section, best I can tell, was in maybe the 40 range, which again is way down from its peak a couple decades ago of around 200. So it's now going to be down into the teens, maybe a dozen, somewhere in there. That's my best reporting. And my colleagues too, Ben Mullen, Katie Robertson, done amazing work on this. So that is one. And then international drastically reduced as well, Although the international coverage is not going away completely the way the sports section essentially is.
6:30Erik Wemple:Go ahead.
6:31Peter Kafka:We could talk more about the strategy later. In the memo that Matt Murray, the paper's top editor, put out, he explained the rationale, went through what you're talking about. There's no mention of Jeff Bezos in his memo, the owner of the paper. As you mentioned, he bought the post for$250 million in 2013. He is the central figure in this story right now, but it's also a confusing story. So maybe you can walk us through the history of Bezos in the paper and where the post was at in 2013 when he bought it and what he did since then.
7:06Erik Wemple:Yeah, I'd be happy to. So Bezos came in. The Graham family, which had owned the post forever, right, was an amazing steward for the post. When business got rough in the early aughts, they did a series of buyouts. They didn't lay people off. They gave them wheelbarrows full of money to leave the post because they had a really well-funded pension plan, sort of a legacy of Berkshire Hathaway, Warren Buffett, their connection with them, overfunded pension plans. So they did all these buyouts. They had to scale back their newsroom because the Internet had blown holes in classifieds. classifieds would just be huge at the Washington Post if I wanted to sell my bicycle back in the
7:47Peter Kafka:late 80s or the early and every local paper right that was classifieds was what kept every local newspaper not just alive but like fat with cash and that was amazing it was amazing it was the
7:58Erik Wemple:place you went um and so that blow a hole in that blew a hole in the advertising revenue so on and so forth that's a that's a familiar story um so they scaled back the newsroom and the newsroom You know, at the time, Bezos bought it in 2013 was not dysfunctional. It wasn't like, you know, a bunch of laggards. These were really good journalists. But still, the paper was in a bit of a funk. Sarah Ellison wrote about it in 2012 saying, you know, what's up with The Washington Post? It's missed some opportunities. You know, Jim Van De High and John Harris had launched Politico several years before.
8:32Erik Wemple:The Washington Post missed that opportunity to do like a high octane, really quick twitch political site. And so the post was the rap on the post was that it had seen better days. It wasn't it wasn't a reclamation project, but it had seen better days.
8:48Peter Kafka:It was faded when he bought it. And that's one of the reasons he was able to buy it for 250 million dollars.
8:52Erik Wemple:Correct. And Don Graham being, I think, one of the greatest, you know, newspaper, you know, the heaven, one of the greatest newspaper families ever understood this. And he's like, I need to find someone who I think will carry forward the tradition of The Washington Post. And when Bezos came in early in his tenure, like around August, September 2013, he came in and really wowed the staff. He did a plenary session. All the dignitaries from the Washington Post history were there. We all asked him questions. He answered those questions with tremendous enthusiasm and competence. He seemed really energized by this.
9:35Erik Wemple:and that bore out because he invested in the Post. He basically took a creaky old website and made it kind of like a, you know, kind of a Formula One machine, you know what I mean?
9:50Peter Kafka:So he, talk about the investment he put in because you're saying, you know, at the beginning of this interview, you're saying, you know, we're down to basically the staff he was, had when he bought it, which meant that he then had staffed up with hundreds of people. um what was what was the plan when he came in was it was it what what did he think he was going to
10:09Erik Wemple:do when he bought it well i he he was when he came in he was um he was energetic but deferential on the you know on the particulars of running the newspaper he's like you know what i'm not in this business but i do know how to organize discussions about the future of a business and that's what he did i was in one of them was really remarkable you know he he had these things that he believed in And he was important in guiding conversations. And Marty Baron writes about a lot of this in Collision of Power, which is his memoir of this time. And it was really remarkable because he backed it up with money.
10:43Erik Wemple:I mean, he invested in the newspaper. He invested in the political coverage big time. Investigative, I think, went up. International got a huge, huge boost. And the technology did, too. Audience, staff, understanding our audience was, you know, that went through the roof as well. people all of a sudden, we all of a sudden had all these metrics about.
11:03Peter Kafka:This is exactly what you want from your billionaire tech owner. Give us a bunch of money. Give us more. Improve our tech. Also, stay away. Don't tell us what to do. This is the perfect scenario, right? This is why you want a tech billionaire to come save your local paper.
11:19Erik Wemple:Yeah. I mean, I think you can take over at this point, Peter. But yes, that's the point. That is exactly the sentiment. bit. And I think that one of the things that you mentioned in there is really worth pausing on for a second, which is the lack of intervention, the lack of meddling. Bezos is a mezzanine, you know, owner. He just sort of looked on. And it was remarkable because, you know, the newsroom really, really, really roared, especially in the first Trump period. Marty was there, Marty Barron, legendary editor. The guy's a machine. He's like this news robot. He understands more about news and what everybody's published.
11:59Erik Wemple:He reads, reads and reads and reads. And you saw how he writes, too, just yesterday with the statement he made on the cutbacks. But he really harnessed Bezos' investment in a way that was really kind of historic.
12:14Peter Kafka:So not only does this produce great journalism, it seems like it becomes a business success story, Right. At some point, the post is profitable and we hear that's attributed to the Trump bump. But just because Donald Trump's in office doesn't mean you turn a profit. Right. Someone had to be doing something correct at the post.
12:30Erik Wemple:That's right. That's right. That's a very good distinction. And that's also something Marty talks about those. He says six straight years of profitability in his book. You know, like I know that you've heard those claims about a lot of businesses over the years. And in this case, we don't have paperwork to substantiate that. And there still was a substantial investment on the front end from Bezos. But I take Marty's word. If those years are profitable, they're profitable. He put it in black and white. And they were really good years. And the Post did invest with that money. And it was great. So then we cut to post-Trump 1.0.
13:12Peter Kafka:I know there's a lot of hand wringing about what happens after the Trump bump. People expect an audience to decline across lots of different publications and news outlets. That happens. And so it makes sense that the Post would struggle a bit. But the numbers you hear about the reported losses, 77 million dollars of losses one year, 100 million dollars of losses, supposedly 2024. I've read a ton of stuff about what's happened to the Post. I still don't understand how you can swing to that high of a loss that quickly just because your web traffic goes down. What am I missing?
13:46Erik Wemple:I share your sort of knowledge hole here. I share your knowledge gap. I think one of the things that was said or has been reported and pretty well substantiated is they may have over-indexed on the staff growth. they vaulted up over a thousand I think towards the end of Marty's tenure he left in early 2021 or maybe just after he left but they kept going and under Sally Busby I believe they vaulted over over 1100 so I think that they they got ahead of themselves on that and they had to pare that back and that was one of the things that Fred Ryan had trouble sort of responding to Like, oh, well, we have to cut because I think we, you know, it was apparent that they went too far.
14:38Erik Wemple:I think that's one of the things. Another consideration is that the digital advertising market sort of dried up alongside, right? And so that was a big deal. But again, we don't get SEC filings from the Washington Post. So it's all somewhat a mystery. But I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it.
15:02Peter Kafka:You don't doubt that there's meaningful losses at the point of the last year's?
15:04Erik Wemple:I don't doubt that there are meaningful losses.
15:06Peter Kafka:And you think the primary reason, and it sounds a lot like a lot of the tech companies during and post-pandemic, is, oh, we hired too many people and now we've got to let some of them go. It can be as simple as that? Can it be as simple as that?
15:23Erik Wemple:No, I don't think so. Especially if you look at the more recent past when they tinkered with the product, tinkered with the opinion side and sort of shot themselves in the foot. Yeah.
Read the full transcript
15:34Peter Kafka:So let's talk about that. So the last few years after the Post had supposedly been losing money, Bezos brings in new management, Will Lewis from the UK, tells everyone no one's reading their stuff. and there are then a series of cuts, buyouts. At one point, you leave in the last year. And then around the same time, Jeff Bezos starts saying, you know how I was fighting with Donald Trump during his first administration? Actually, Donald Trump, it turns out to be a really good guy. I think he's going to be a great president. He says that on stage with Andrew Ross Sorkin at the New York Times event in November 2024, agrees to buy the Melania doc, does a whole lot of pivoting towards Trump.
16:17Peter Kafka:And some of that shows up with the work he's done at the Post, which is a real distinction, right? Because he really did keep Amazon separate from other Jeff Bezos ambitions. And now it seems like from the outside that there are things about Jeff Bezos, his business life, Amazon, Blue Origin, his rocket company. It seems like he is tilting the Washington Post to make Donald Trump happy, to make Jeff Bezos, his other businesses work better in Trump 2.0. Is that a reasonable summary?
16:48Erik Wemple:Well, I think we need to be pretty precise in the answer in the sense that I don't see any evidence that he has intervened in the news side. The news side has really been, and we would hear about it if it did, because journalists are not, they don't keep those thoughts to themselves. They blab. They blab. That's what the media beat is a fun beat. That's correct. So on the news side, I still don't see it. And the coverage, I think, speaks to their independence. Yeah.
17:24Peter Kafka:I mean, I want to point out that even after Bezos had been making gooey-goo eyes at Trump for a while, I mean, the Post is the paper that ran the story on the double tap last fall in Venezuela.
17:36Erik Wemple:Just after Thanksgiving?
17:38Peter Kafka:Yeah, where the U.S. may have committed a war crime. And the Washington Post reported on that, essentially broke that story.
17:44Erik Wemple:Right. Which is part of a year long sort of like string of scoops from the national security Pentagon team. Really remarkable about that. You know, we're talking about. Right.
17:56Peter Kafka:So if you're in a world where you think Jeff Bezos is doing this solely to make Donald Trump happy, there's a lot of evidence that says that's not happening.
18:03Erik Wemple:Tons like like URLs out the wazoo. Yeah. So that's that's one thing. But like on the opinion side, and I'll give a full disclosure, I was on the opinion side. He has a prerogative, a traditional sort of newspaperman's right or privilege or protocol to mess with the opinion page and to steer and guide the opinion page, its outlook and everything it does. That's just been the way it has unfolded.
18:33Peter Kafka:I own this newspaper. I'm I'm I my opinion the opinion section should reflect the way I think if I wanted to.
18:40Erik Wemple:Yeah. No taxes. So anyway, so the so what he did on the opinion side, I think, is worth commenting on. Starting in October 2024, when he and Will Lewis, Bezos through Will Lewis, decreed that the Post would not be endorsing a candidate in the 2024 presidential election. That happened 11 days before the election. And that happened after the Washington Post editorial board had had worked up, had drafted an editorial in favor of Kamala Harris. And hell broke loose. A subscription desertion of hundreds of thousands.
19:16Peter Kafka:Hundreds of thousands is an astonishing number. I remember when I think it was David Folkenflake from NPR. broke the number. And every time I saw those numbers, I thought those numbers have to be wrong. David's a very good reporter, but he must have been misguided here. There's no way that many people turned off their subscriptions. It just doesn't happen.
19:35Erik Wemple:Every one of us had the same reaction. And so I was waiting for, because I worked at the Post. I didn't know where he got this. This is magical. And I was thinking, okay, let's wait for the Post's denial. And it never came. It never came. So Folk and Flick nailed that story. First, he had 200 ,000 and later he figured out that another additional 50 ,000 at least had deserted the post. And the cause and effect, Peter, could not have been more direct. It happened directly after this. And people said, no way, I'm not giving my money to this organization.
20:10Peter Kafka:It's like a surgeon coming in and someone's got a, I don't know, a busted leg. And they say, Well, it's better if we just cut the leg off. That's how we're going to solve it. That's not a bad analogy. I don't know if I completely got it right. So this Jeff Bezos ordered decision to not endorse Kamala Harris, which reads like a de facto endorsement of Trump, costs the Washington Post real money.
20:36Erik Wemple:Real money. And people, you know, since journalists are always working in fear of getting that email about, you know, staff reductions or some other doom from management, they were at the time, I remember people saying, you know, you need to hold us blameless for this because this is a wound that we that not authored by us. Our bylines aren't on this screw up, this fuck up. It's not on our ledger. So don't include this in whatever calculation you do when you sort of figure out your staffing level down the road.
21:14Peter Kafka:We'll be right back with Eric Wemple. But first, a word from a sponsor.
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24:27And we're back.
24:28Peter Kafka:In the context of Bezos tilting towards Trump, in that Matt Murray memo I referenced up top of this discussion, there's a line in the Murray memo. He's praising a lot of the work they do. He's saying, well, so you have some problems. You know, our video isn't working. We're not making enough stories. And there's this line. Even as we produce much excellent work, we too often write from one perspective for one slice of audience. What do you make of that line? It's kind of an aside, but as you're explaining how you're reorienting the paper and you're saying, actually, we're we have you're suggesting we're biased in some way or we're we're not shooting the news straight.
25:06Peter Kafka:What do you make it? It almost sounds like what David Ellison and Barry Weiss say when they say they want to remake CBS News. But we haven't heard that discussion talking about the Post besides its opinion pages. Does that mean we should expect the Post's news report to change in some sort of ideological way?
25:25Erik Wemple:I don't know. But like, you know, like if Matt Murray or any of his top editors had actually edited that memo, they would have asked for specifics. And they would have put a big question mark alongside that and say, what the hell are you talking about here? Okay. Why are you speaking in such elliptical language? Why are you trying to whisper to the newsroom some message that you're not willing to articulate? So I saw that too, and I'm like, oh man, we need to ask him exactly what he's saying. I think that that is coded language, and I think that it could be political. Yes, it's obvious that it could be political.
26:06Erik Wemple:But I think the thing is, like, what does that mean for your story selection? What about what about the front pages, Mr. Murray, have you been putting out that you don't like? I mean, it's a strange thing for the executive editor to be saying. It's almost as if he's asking for some some force to, like, adjust the newsroom sort of cadence or tempo and its sensibility when he has the power to do that. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, well, I wonder who would have the authority to do that.
26:38Peter Kafka:OJ searching for the real killer. Why? Just pure speculation at this point. Why does Jeff Bezos own the Washington Post? He he bought it's obviously not core to what he does. It seems to be nothing but headache for him the last few years. It doesn't seem like it's it helps him curry favor with Donald Trump. At best, it's something he can tell Donald Trump isn't a problem, but it's not like he's using it to buy the Melania documentary for$75 million. What is the upside for him and why does he continue to own it, do you think?
27:14Erik Wemple:I have to preface this with I have no idea because I really don't. And that is something that all of us in this sort of media trade in this particular niche have been trying to figure out. and it is entirely a black box. I can tell you from having been around the Post and seen him interact a little bit many years ago, he seemed to be deriving a great deal of satisfaction from this. I mean, he showed up at Ben Bradley's funeral with all the dignitaries. I believe Woodward sort of suggested he come So there was a close bond between the old guard, the Washington Post establishment and Bezos. I'm not so sure that that is as strong as it once was.
28:07Erik Wemple:In fact, I'm pretty sure it isn't as strong as it once was. So I think that probably the sort of enjoyment he got from his association with this institution. That has faded. I think it's probably faded, but I think that, you know, who was, was it Lewis or was it Bezos? I'm forgetting right now who said we saved the Washington Post once, we're going to save it again. It's one of the two. That was Bezos on stage. That was Bezos on stage, right. So like, so there's another challenge, right? So, you know, I guess that that would be something that he would derive some pleasure from. And I would imagine that, again, like if he wanted to get really sort of like involved and engaged the way he was back in 2013, 2014, 2015 and so on, that the newsroom would welcome that.
29:05Peter Kafka:Let's talk about where the post goes next. One of the things I like to point out a lot on this podcast and my writing is that a lot of the success stories we hear about in digital media these days are specifically publications that are focused largely or entirely on Washington, D.C. Politico, Axios, Punchbowl, Semaphore, some of them have direct DNA from Washington Post, like you mentioned, like Politico came directly out of out of the post. They built these really big businesses. The Post should own that space by rights, right? It's this dominant paper in Washington, D.C. Is there any chance of the Post reclaiming any of that, either through an actual acquisition of one of these companies or just by, you know, really focusing on the ins and outs of Washington, D.C., policy of what's happening on K Street, et cetera?
29:59Peter Kafka:Is there is that a possibility for them?
30:02Erik Wemple:I love this question because I think it shows a real, real familiarity with what has gone on in D.C. for a real long time. And that is that these Washington-based publications that have one foot in sort of like gossipy Washington and one foot in policy Washington have been very successful. And a lot of them have done it through events. and I mean by sponsored events that has really helped their business model. And obviously their ethical concerns about having major lobbies sponsoring your events.
30:46Peter Kafka:That is how business is done, at least for now.
30:48Erik Wemple:It is how business is done. The Post, I think, has done a pretty good job of that. They've had great events over the years. I don't know exactly where the events business is now. But when I started at the Post in 2011, I asked the then president of the organization, Steve Hills, why the Post hadn't launched something akin to Politico Pro. I think Politico Pro had recently started, or at least they were advertising it started. And, you know, Politico Pro is a service that is exclusively for lobbyists and D.C. insiders with a lot of money.
31:22Peter Kafka:Yeah, it's thousands of dollars for subscription, and it is the thing that powers Politico.
31:26Erik Wemple:It is remarkable. They gave me, here, take a look. We'll give you a one-day pass to look at it. It's a remarkable service. There's everything you could ever want in there. There's exclusive content. I don't mean to be broadcasting an advertisement for Politico Pro, but it's something completely different from Politico. and you know that if you're paying for it and it's also adjacent to politico right because a lot of the people who work on political pro can you know go do regular sort of like general interest stories and after a while on political pro they'll put them up on the main site it's really really close it's there's a great proximity in terms of the content and i asked the post why aren't you doing this.
32:10Erik Wemple:And the answer I got back then was, that's not what we do. And I was a new employee. It was just like one of these meet the president sort of thing. So I didn't want to, but I was like, maybe that's what we should be doing. So they have this Washington Post intelligence thing now, which is sort of akin to that. I don't know if there are new streams of revenue opening up at the post. And I think that that's one of the reasons that the staff is so disaffected and so disappointed in the current management is that they don't necessarily see any sort of like any progress towards, you know, oh, we're going to do this new business.
32:52Erik Wemple:We're going to start this. We're going to launch this. And it has real prospects to... They're just seeing cuts, cut after cut. I think they're seeing cuts and they're seeing... And there's also a fair amount of silence. I don't think that they're getting the feedback from management that I think that, quite frankly, they deserve.
33:12Peter Kafka:Sort of suggests maybe there is no plan. And you've pretty much laid it out, but because you've worked at the Post until just recently, you should have better insight than most. Is there any optimism for the folks who are remaining? Is there anyone saying, you know what, this is brutal, but lots of companies have the problems we have, and the only way we were going to survive is to go through this, this really difficult time. And maybe this could work out. Is there anyone uttering anything remotely like that?
33:44Erik Wemple:I've spoken to a lot of people just in the past few weeks. I haven't heard it. I haven't heard that sentiment. And I think that's because, I mean, look, just to be fair, sometimes I'm not saying it's these post journalists, right? Sometimes journalists are too, I think, dismissive and don't understand the sort of obstacles and the problems faced by management of a 21st century newspaper. And I think, Don, nobody's really figured out the problem of how to transition a regional newspaper into this thriving beast of a news organization. I mean, like Salt Lake Tribune and the Philadelphia Inquirer and some other papers out there are starting to find a footing.
34:32Erik Wemple:They're using philanthropic sources for like a third leg on the revenue stool. Good, excellent, but still like breakthroughs in this area are few and far between. So I think that that's one thing. when I was there, I never wanted to be the guy standing up and say, why aren't you getting more revenue and stuff? Because I just didn't think that I could do it, for example, and I didn't have any better ideas, quite frankly. So I want to make that clear. But still, that's their job. And I think that the post staffers do not believe that there is, they don't see a lot of creativity, They don't see a lot of initiative.
35:16Erik Wemple:And I think that's an enormous problem, if you understand what I'm saying.
35:20Peter Kafka:I do. Let's leave it with one more projection with all the caveats saying you're a reporter, not a soothsayer. In a year from now, is The Washington Post the same size it is currently now? Or do you think they come back and go, you know what, we still got to cut because it's still not working?
35:36Erik Wemple:I have to do a prediction. I'm going to say that they're going to stay steady. And that's just that's as much of a hope as a prediction. but flat is the new up. We'll take it as the new up. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting because you have four or 500 people, I guess around 500 people now, and that's still a pretty powerful newsroom that you can do a lot of stuff with 500 people in the newsroom, but I do think that you can do more if you're moving upward toward 500, then you're moving downward, scaling back to 500. Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, it's just... I do know what you're saying.
36:13Erik Wemple:Yeah.
36:14Peter Kafka:Eric Wimple, formerly of the Washington Post, now the New York Times. Thank you for joining us. I really appreciate it. I appreciate it. Have a good one. Thanks again to Eric Wimple, who I've loved reading forever. A real treat to have him on. Thanks to Charlotte Silver, who busts her ass to get these newsy podcasts turned around and into your ears. Thanks to our sponsors. Thanks to you guys. See you again next week.
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From the publisher
Jeff Bezos used to be the savior of The Washington Post. He bought it for $250 million in 2013, and then invested money and energy into turning it around — and it worked.Now the Amazon founder is decimating the Post’s staff, and his managers are telling the ones who are left that things have to change.So what happened, and what happens next? Erik Wemple is the right person to ask: He spent years covering media at the Post, and now he’s at the New York Times, where he’s covering the collapse of his old home.
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