#61: Dr. Ramani: The Signs of a Narcissistic Relationship & How Not to Lose Yourself

0:00Rachel Lim: Hi everyone, welcome back to The Hotcast. Today's episode, we're going to dive deeper into a topic that touches many of us, often even without us realizing it. Narcissism. Whether it's a friend, a family member, colleague, or even our own behaviors, understanding narcissism can be the key to healthier relationships and also a stronger sense of self. Joining us today is the incredible Dr. Ramani, a world-renowned clinical psychologist, best-selling author, and leading expert on narcissistic personality disorder and toxic relationships. Through her groundbreaking work, Dr. Ramani has helped countless people recognize the subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways narcissism shows up in our lives and what we can do about it.

0:50Rachel Lim: In this conversation, we are going to uncover what narcissism really is and isn't, how to spot it in everyday relationships, and why it's such a misunderstood concept. Dr. Romani brings years of research, personal insight, and a deep sense of compassion to this topic. So, whether you're new to this idea or you've experienced narcissism firsthand, this episode is going to be enlightening, relatable, and empowering. Welcome to the show, Dr. Ramani. Thank you so much for having me, Rachel. I really appreciate it. So I really wanted to unpack this topic with you. And you know, the word narcissist is often thrown around a lot these days, but not everyone understands what it truly means.

1:37Rachel Lim: So could you unpack and share with us, what is narcissism and how does it differ from having just a big ego or being confident? Yeah. So narcissism is a personality style and it's considered a maladaptive, rigid and relatively unhealthy personality style because it puts the narcissistic person really at odds with other people. There's a real selfishness and lack of empathy and a lack of depth. So it's not good for relationships and sort of human relationships. but it is a, it is not just selfishness. And I think one of the challenges is that when we look at all the components of what comprises narcissism, which is low empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, really a pathological selfishness, an excessive need for praise and admiration and validation, um, a really superficial kind of a, a style and arrogance, right?

2:30You need to have all of those things. And I think the mistake we make is that if a person's being very selfish they'll be called narcissistic if a person is overly concerned with their appearance they'll be called narcissistic they may be but just that one thing is not what is designating them as narcissistic i think that for a lot of people it's just somebody who likes to look in the mirror it's just a vanity kind of thing and that's not what it is it's all those things i've described all those traits and that translate into behaviors that are really unhealthy for relationships like manipulation and gaslighting and invalidation and dominating other people and taking advantage of other people.

3:08And again, being selfish in relationships and not caring about other people and betraying other people. So it's a very unhealthy relational style, but it's not just selfishness. And in fact, frankly, at the core of narcissism is a deep insecurity and a very deep sense of shame. So even though narcissistic people may often present as hyperconfident, They will communicate a confidence to people and an assuredness. Actually, they are not at all. And so in a way, sometimes when people are sort of coming off as too kind of superficially confident, that almost should be a ringer for you to say, hmm, this is concerning.

3:45But at the core of the narcissistic person is a very unconfident person. But if a person really is saying like, I know how this works, I know how to do this, they do have confidence. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're narcissistic.

3:57Rachel Lim: Is there a spectrum to narcissism? Yeah, that's an excellent question, Rachel. It absolutely is a spectrum to narcissism, ranging from the mild levels, which is really more of an emotional immaturity. Again, it's very much heavier on the selfishness. You still have all the things, but the selfishness is sort of, I just want to do what I want to do, and I don't care that other people don't want to do it. Maybe sort of an obsessiveness with social media to the point where you'll say, we're going to the restaurant I want because we'll get better social media pictures there. So there's little regard and we'll expect to be treated special by the service, the servers in the restaurant.

4:31I don't think anyone would ever characterize the behavior of a mild narcissistic person as abusive. They'd probably call it more annoying. But as you climb up that spectrum towards much more severe narcissism, now we're seeing something that's more malignant, exploitative, coercive, harmful, even frightening. And my book, It's Not You, is very much focused on that moderate level of narcissism. When people get to the much more severe, severe levels of narcissism, these relationships feel very abusive. And in fact, sometimes people even have to involve things like law enforcement, sometimes there's even violence involved.

5:05At the mild end, I think most people will say like, this is a ridiculously immature person. But even at that mild end, let's say you're trying to raise children with someone like this. That's not easy because there's sort of like one more child in the house and they're not sort of carrying their weight in the relationship. So it can be very frustrating. But in that moderate level of narcissism, many times a narcissistic person is someone who actually still is quite successful in the world. And people maybe who work with them or don't spend that much time with them may say, oh, well, they seem like a nice enough person.

5:34But the people closest to them, for example, a partner or family member is still experiencing this very manipulative, difficult invalidating sort of unkind person but on this spectrum is you know this is why two people can have very different kinds of experiences and on top of that there's lots of different subtypes of narcissism so we use this word but it's almost like flavors right a grandiose narcissist feels very different for example than a vulnerable narcissist or a malignant narcissist or a communal narcissist so these different kinds feel different too which is so that means that two people who are saying they're in a narcissistic relationship may actually be having very different kinds of experiences.

6:12Rachel Lim: What got you so interested in this topic and also so passionate to come out to really spread the awareness and almost education on narcissism? You know, it's a great question. And I wish I could say it was some dramatic moment, right? That, you know, I started, I was a professor at a university and I was noticing that people with these personality styles were actually really a headache for people who worked in medical clinics with them, right? They were very demanding of the nurses and the people who answered the phone. And I thought, why isn't anyone studying this? And nobody was studying it.

6:44So I started researching it. I was also a psychologist who had a practice. And I was seeing more and more people complain about, particularly spouses most often, but sometimes family members, and had the same pattern. And then I went to the literature and I thought, nobody's writing about this. And I was really struck by how the world of mental health, not just in the United States, but around the world was not systematically addressing this issue of people with these personalities are making issue, creating all kinds of problems in relationships. And the real struggle was, listen, if somebody was in a relationship with someone, for example, who's an alcoholic, right?

7:18It's very clear to other people that person drinks too much and might've even gotten in trouble publicly because of that. So people, yeah, it's more, it's a behavior you can see. And people watching that relationship might say, I understand why she's having a difficult time in that relationship because he's an alcoholic. But narcissism is tricky because the narcissistic person can actually be very charming and charismatic and confident in public, but behind closed doors be really cruel and humiliating and dismissive. So the person in the relationship, the people out in the world think the narcissistic person is a pillar of the community and wonderful and the people in the relationship are suffering and a lot of times people don't believe them.

7:57So it was a very unique spot and that's how I got into it. And I'll be honest with you, Rachel. And the funny thing is how backwards my story is. It's not like I got into it because I was going through it. I got into it because I was observing it. Then one day I opened my eyes and I thought, oh my gosh, no wonder this was so compelling to me. This was also happening in my life, in my own family, in my relationships, with friendships. And I thought, hmm, this is fascinating because I had so many healthy relationships, but the ones that were commanding most of my time and attention and the cause of the most harm to me had these characteristics too.

8:29And that's when I thought, oh, this is fascinating. And it would have made such a difference for me if somebody had educated me about these patterns rather than trying to help me figure out ways to make these relationships work.

8:41Rachel Lim: Wow. And, you know, I love what you shared also about, you know, people on the receiving end of narcissism because we end up maybe doubting ourselves, especially because they might come off confident, successful and, you know, everyone would love them. And I want to touch on the point where you spoke about earlier where narcissistic people may also have superficial confidence. How do we spot that? And I think many of us unknowingly, like you also realize for yourself, we unknowingly deal with narcissists in our everyday lives. Whether it's a friend, a family or a co-worker. Can you share a story with us or a scenario that can help us recognize what that might look like?

9:21What the superficial confidence would look like?

9:23Rachel Lim: Yes, or even traits of narcissism that would ring the alarm bells. So I think that if you have someone in your life, this might be someone where if you've known this person for a while, a great example would be you find yourself being very careful how you talk about things. Saying like, I got this promotion, but I'm afraid if I tell them about it, then they're going to act like a victim and I'm going to feel guilty. You're sort of walking very gently on eggshells. right that's one example if this is a relationship that's been in your life for a while and you might even feel guilty saying like i hate that i think like this about them but i want to be very careful you're very tentative like oh gosh i have to tell them i can't go to dinner but i'm so afraid they're going to scream at me so maybe i'm just going to go to the dinner and if i'm not feeling well or whatever just to not deal with their rage so there's that piece of it another piece is that you and i think this is one that a lot of people relate to in all kinds of relationships you've always been there for them.

10:23They'll call you when they're having a problem. You'll sit on the phone with them for hours. You'll go help them. But when you have something going on in your life and you say, well, I was always there for them. I'm going to turn to them. They seem bored. They're like, I don't have the time for this right now. So it's very one-sided. Whereas you might have done things for them or been there for them when it's you needing something from them, especially emotional support. They're nowhere to be found. And we'll say, and if you really say, wait a minute, I was there for you, why aren't you here? They'll say, oh my gosh, you're so demanding.

10:56So they'll turn it around so as though you're the problem when actually all you were asking is the treatment that you've only shown them. That would be another example. Another example would be that you'll see that, and this is where people get confused. You'll see like many times being with them is actually maybe even pleasant, maybe even fun or normal. But then there are times when things don't go their way. For example, they may go to a restaurant and the reservation isn't ready when they want it to be, and they'll get really angry. Or the parking spaces they wanted aren't there. So basically, they're not getting treated in this way where they think they're being treated special.

11:32And so you'll see them get very angry very quickly. Or if you even give them some feedback, that's actually very neutral. And then they'll experience it as a criticism, and they'll be very attacking, which will mean that you will feel like, I don't want to give them feedback and you find yourself holding back more and more and more in the relationship. Those would all be the kinds of examples on how this might even show up in sort of day-to-day kind of relationships. You'll also find that it sort of feels, no matter what the conversation is, back to that idea of the superficial confidence, they have to do it better.

12:06Maybe somebody's talking about some traveling or vacation they did and they went and stayed and they saw some site or they stayed in some hotel and a narcissistic person was like, oh gosh, no, the place you have to stay is this, or didn't you go to this place? So the person telling the story almost feels as though the narcissistic person is taking the story, kind of hijacking the conversation, making it about them. And, and so many times basically, and it's just sort of people went, the longer they're in narcissistic relationships of any kind, you just sort of silence yourself more and more and more to make it work.

12:40Cause it feels like anything you try to say is often the wrong thing. And after a while, you're like, I don't even know what the right thing is to say. So you start saying less and less.

12:49Rachel Lim: And especially in a world today with social media, you can really feel like a narcissist's playground sometimes. What are your thoughts around that? Are we encouraging these behaviors online without even realizing it? It's a wonderful question, Rachel. And here's what's so interesting. I've been doing work in narcissism probably before. Yeah, definitely before social media came onto the scene. Right. And I have to remember, I always tell people this. I'll always remember the day the first person ever told me about Facebook. At the time, I was like a junior professor. I had young children. And someone's like, oh, you should check this thing out.

13:22And I just started doing this work. And I remember setting up an account and looking at it. And when I realized how it worked, I thought, oh, my gosh, this is going to be a disaster. I had no idea Instagram, all this craziness was coming. This is back when people were using Facebook to post little pictures and quotes and nonsense. right and i thought oh my gosh the narcissistic people used to have to get dressed and leave the house to get validation now they can do it at home right and so in many ways social media is purpose built for narcissistic people because it's a tool designed not only to get validation but that validation is worth something right if a person gets enough of it it becomes a brand it becomes something they can trade on financially and if a psychiatrist friend of mine said this to me once and I agreed with her.

14:06She said, social media is literally a tool that's designed to evoke envy in other people. And envy is a very key dynamic of narcissistic people. They either envy other people or they think other people envy them. And so social media is like, look how great my dinner is. Look how great my weekend is. Look how great my vacation is. Look how fun my life is. So narcissistic people, the entire core of their personality is to work on their exterior because the interior is quite empty. So social media is exactly a place where you get rewarded for sort of selling the false self. And narcissistic people have always been good at selling the false self.

14:44So now we've almost created a platform for that. And it's never quite enough for them. And I have to say, like a lot of the influencing industry is people who just are in it for the validation, but it's a really tough way to live. And so the narcissistic people are always chasing that high in social media. So they've definitely exploited it for its full value. And I wouldn't say that social media causes narcissism. I think a person who's not narcissistic is not going to become narcissistic because of social media. But if a person is narcissistic, social media is the perfect tool for them.

15:15Rachel Lim: Actually, you know, Dr. Romani, even so many of us as adults, we don't even have a strong sense of self. What more to be able to impart them to our children or even to the next generation. As a mom yourself, what are some of your advice or tips for us to developing a strong sense of self for our children, especially as they navigate this digital world? This is such an important question. And when my kids were small, young children, the social media phone thing didn't exist. So I actually feel very blessed that I was probably the last generation of parents. So my kids were well into primary school.

15:52All this having literally a movie theater in your pocket wasn't a thing. So what we've always known that makes parenting healthy, or I shouldn't say always known, what we've known in the last 40 or 50 years makes parenting healthy, being attuned to your children, being present to your children, listening to your children when they speak. When you ask them a question, actually wait for the answer. Try to avoid having an agenda for your child. Teach your child how to regulate their emotions by allowing them to feel and name their emotions. Teach your children about empathy by modeling it, by rewarding it.

16:29If you see, for example, so many times you'll say, oh, I'm so proud of you, you got such a good score on the test. Rather, I actually think what we should be rewarding is if you see maybe a sibling helps a younger sibling put their coat on, say, oh my gosh, thank you so much for helping your sister. Or they see them being kind to a sibling, saying, you were so sweet to your brother. That's so wonderful. That children who are reinforced will repeat the behavior and they'll recognize that empathic gestures matter. We can play games with children, board games, you know, like chutes and ladders, anything.

17:00And the child then has that experience of sometimes losing, sometimes winning and learning to regulate that feeling. We can read them children's books or watch children's programs with them and stop and say, how do you think that character felt? Don't just close the book at the end, but actually have them reflect I'm feeling. But if a child feels important enough that an adult really looks at them, makes eye contact with them, hears them, listens to them, doesn't, you know, it doesn't make it like someday you're going to be a doctor like daddy. No, it's going to be, tell me about you. What are you interested in?

17:32Cultivate those interests in your children. Cultivate curiosity. Curiosity is something that we're not cultivating kids in the same way. Because again, when I was a kid, there was nothing even resembling this. We'd sit in the back of a car for hours. We'd have to craft stories as we stared out the window. To learn to be bored. Yeah. Exactly. Learn to be bored. So let your kid be bored. Let them be curious. Let them take them outside, take them into nature. Like there's so many things we can do. And I understand parents are stressed out. Parents are feeling competitive and they've got, the kids have to get the right school, the right this, the right that.

18:05But in so doing, we're developing these kids that can do things, but they're not learning to be people and becoming a whole person. That's the antidote to narcissism. And yet when a child believes that they're only rewarded for a skill they have, a soccer ball they can kick or a piano they can play or a school subject they're good at, when the child realizes their value is being good at one thing, then they don't develop that sense of self. And they really start going through the world and thinking, well, I'm only as valuable as this. And those kinds of things, if they don't necessarily foreshadow narcissism, they may also foreshadow a sense of being an imposter, a lower sense of self-esteem.

18:45We have the opportunity to do this. We've got to learn to attune to children. We're getting worse and worse and worse at this. I can't tell you how many times I see a person who's walking their child in a stroller and their head is in their phone. Your face should be facing your child. I mean, this feels like a no-brainer, but I understand this. This is very compelling. And you have your boss sending you a message and there's an email and there's a this and there's a that. But somehow we've got to realize that the priority of helping kids learn to regulate and learn that they're important and that both two things are related because they're worth paying attention to and listening to what they say, it's huge.

19:24That's the antidote. And good luck with making that a policy. So it's frustrating because we know what we need to do.

19:30Rachel Lim: Do you think, Dr. Romani, that narcissism is reversible? For example, if we spot certain traits in our kids, our spouse or ourselves, is there something we can do to heal or reverse that? Narcissism as a personality style is very rigid and it's not very changeable. So I would say if you see narcissistic patterns in a child, we actually don't even call them narcissistic patterns. And in children, selfishness is sort of natural, right? Children should be self-focused, but we want children to also learn to be cooperative, right? So right through adolescence, children are going to be more focused on themselves.

20:08It's no child's job to take care of their parent when they're a child, right? That's not what they're supposed to be doing. But I think that sometimes someone will see their child as behaving selfishly, and I do agree that that needs to be addressed, but I would never say the child's narcissistic. That kind of personality terminology we don't really use until someone's an adult. If you notice a narcissistic pattern in your spouse, I can promise you the one person who's not going to change it is you. They would have to recognize there's an issue. They would have to go get the help. So no human being can change another person's narcissism.

20:40And that's the mistake we make. Now, if somebody is listening to this and says, ooh, I have a lot of these patterns, that doesn't feel good. I mean, listen, the thing you're going to have to do feels really uncomfortable. You're going to have to care about other people. You're going to have to empathize with other people. You're sometimes not going to put your interests first and you're no more special than anybody else. And that can take therapy. That might mean addressing early trauma. That means taking responsibility when you do something wrong. That's much easier said than done when it evokes that much shame.

21:07So this is relatively unchangeable. And a person who thinks, oh, I've just listened to this and yep, my spouse is narcissistic. So I'm going to go home and tell them that. That's a bad idea because all it's going to do is result in some kind of horrible argument. They're probably going to turn around and say, you're narcissistic, and you're saying this to them is not going to lead them to change.

21:26Rachel Lim: So what do you think, you know, if someone realizes that they're in a close relationship with a narcissist, whether a partner, a boss, or even a parent, what's the first step that we should take to protect ourselves? I think that it's understanding that this is a pattern and that it is not going to change that much and to radically accept that and have realistic expectations for the relationship. I would say if it is accessible to you and you can get support or therapy, that would be a great first step because sometimes it can help, but not all therapists understand it. So don't think that necessarily you can walk into a therapist's office and say, hey, I'm being narcissistically abused.

22:04Therapists might look at you and say, huh, what? Because it's not being taught. So I would say that educating yourself, reading books, listening to podcasts like this one can help you a lot, the more you can lift your sense of responsibility for someone else's behavior. Because most people in these relationships blame themselves. If only I could be enough. If only if I could be more perfect. If only I could say it right. Maybe this is my fault. Maybe it's not your fault, right? They're behaving badly. You're in this relationship with them. There's nothing you can do to change their behavior. And knowing that, you then decide what you're going to do.

22:37It might mean you might say, I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. You might say then, I'm not going to try to call them every day, or I'm not going to try to fix this anymore. You're going to probably approach the relationship very differently. And I'm saying this as though this happens overnight. This can take months or years. There can be a lot of grief. If it is, for example, a parent, nobody wants to think of their parent this way. If this is a partner and you have young children, nobody wants to think like, oh my gosh, this is not how I want to raise my kids. Or a boss, you may not want to quit the job, or you can't afford to.

23:08So getting this awareness, while helpful, can also be quite painful. And so it's not like, oh, I've got the knowledge. Great. I can go address this. No, for a lot of people, it's the beginning of a very painful journey. But it can also be the beginning of a journey where you stop blaming yourself and thinking that you're a problem and there's something wrong with me and I'm the one who's the issue. That's why the book's called It's Not You. And so it's a process of education of, you know sometimes people feel very confused and destabilized in these relationships it's about feeling more stable again and then slowly but surely it's figuring out that you separate from this relationship because when we're in these relationships we pretty much devote most of our time to try to be everything this person wants i'm going to answer the phone every time they call i'm going to always text them back i'm going to be perfect i'm going to be perfect it's never going to be enough so the moment you start realizing like okay this is not going to work you now can realize that there's a you separate from this relationship and sort of work on that you.

24:11Now, the narcissistic person's not going to be interested in that, but you need that for your sense of wholeness to foster new healthy relationships. You might have friendships you don't pay as much attention to because you're so busy dealing with the narcissistic person. Foster those friendships. Those will be important spaces of healing for you. Learn to engage in the relationship differently and all information on all of that is in the book on how to do that once you get to that point.

24:36Rachel Lim: What do you think is the biggest misconception or myth about narcissism that you'll like to clear up for people, especially for those of us who are hearing about it for the first time? I think that it's this idea that narcissism is just self-love and confidence. I think that that's a big myth that a lot of people hold to and that they think like, well, you know, I mean, if it's just that, then it should be, then what's the big deal? That's one thing. Number two, that narcissism is easy to change. It's really not. It's very resistant to change. Are there unicorns out there who do the hard work in therapy?

25:13Sure. But the odds of that being the person in your life, if they're not in therapy, are slim. Another myth about narcissism is that all narcissistic people are men. That is not true. There are lots of narcissistic women out there. Lots of people have narcissistic mothers. Those are women. And so I think that this idea that it's only men is untrue. And there are men out there in relationships with narcissistic women. There are people out there with narcissistic mothers. And I think sometimes people think, well, I don't think it's narcissism because it's a woman, not necessarily so. So some of those things, I also think it's a little less common than people think.

25:48I think people, I've often asked this question to audiences, what percentage of people you think are narcissistic? People come out with numbers like 25, 30%. It's probably closer to like 10%. So it's not that many people. And that 10 % are mild, moderate, and severe. So you know what I'm saying? And I'd say the severe folks are probably only 1 % or 2 % of that. So it's not that common. But when it happens in your life, it's very impactful.

26:12Rachel Lim: I also want to know, do all of us have a bit of narcissism in us? I don't agree with that. I think this is a mistake a lot of people make. And going back to the myths that does everyone have? No. because I think the mistake is, is that do all of us have selfishness in us? Yes. Do all of us have some, sometimes times we behave entitled? Sure. But do all of us have times in our life where we have low empathy and entitlement and arrogance and an excessive, you have to have all the things. So there's no one who sometimes that, right? I think that we pull out these strands. And I don't, I actually don't like the term healthy narcissism.

26:53I think the better way to say it is healthy ego. And healthy ego is when we advocate for ourselves, when we're assertive in a healthy way, in a respectful way, right? But we're not calling someone names or we're not gaslighting them or we're not verbally abusing them, that kind of thing. I think healthy ego is when you might say, you know what? I want to come so badly to this party. I have a massive deadline Monday. I cannot come. I'd love to take you to dinner next week, right? So healthy ego is sometimes making priorities. People may not always like it. And it's conceivable that person whose party you don't go to will call you selfish.

27:29But to say, I'm so sorry, I'd love to make this up to you, but you are asserting yourself. So that's healthy ego, right? Narcissism is actually unhealthy ego. It's like ego out of control, ego run amok. But I don't love the term healthy narcissism. And I don't love this idea that we all have some narcissism in us because you'd have to have all those things happening at the same time. Here's the thing. Most people who are in narcissistic relationships have tremendous, if you will, compassion and empathy for the narcissistic person. They've been making excuses and justifications and all of that for a long time, right?

28:05I do believe though, once you realize someone is narcissistic, this isn't about cruelly dismissing them and saying you're a terrible person. They're carrying their burden, in their shame, their weight, and I wish them well, and I hope they get the help they need. You're not their therapist, right? You're their family member. You're their friend. And that the key, though, to healing is self-compassion for yourself. Because I think a lot of people feel as though, maybe I'm giving up on this person. Maybe I'm being disloyal. Maybe I shouldn't think this. And I say to people, listen, it'll never be enough.

28:40So the conversation you have to have with yourself is whether you're willing to be a human sacrifice for the rest of your days to try to please another human being. That's a question only you can ask yourself. If the answer to that is yes, okay, because that's what this relationship is going to take. And when you put it in those terms, people are like, well, I don't want that. I'm like, well, then that's the only way this works. And you've kind of been doing it, but weren't aware that that's what you were doing. So I do believe that, for example, I think one of the big points I make in the book is that more than one thing can be true at the same time.

29:15I think what we want is like, my partner's a narcissistic person. They're terrible. I'm out. No, there are people out there who tell me, I love my husband. My husband's very narcissistic. My husband has cheated on me multiple times. I don't trust my husband. My husband has broken my heart. I don't feel happy in this relationship. So you can understand if you're feeling all those things, it's confusing. And all of those things may be true, right? And I said, all those things are true, right? You might even say you see good things about them. But if their behavior is an issue for you, and I'm telling you, it's probably not going to change.

29:51You're going to have to make your decisions from that place. And that's the challenge.

29:57Rachel Lim: I love that because it's almost like balancing compassion with protecting ourselves. Yeah, which is hard to do. For someone who's listening to you, who's struggling with a narcissist in their life, what is one hopeful message you'd like to share with them? That healing is possible from these relationships. I see it happen all the time. I'm not saying it's easy, and I do think these relationships change us, but healing is possible. And I see people, whether they stay or leave the relationship, who find ways to no longer devote all their time and energy to trying to please the narcissistic person, people who sometimes get out of these relationships and actually enter into healthy relationships in the future, people who finally understand it and then give themselves permission to start living as their true selves rather than always catering to the narcissistic person, people who are able to disengage from their family system a little bit more and give themselves permission to actually live their lives and not feel the need to share every detail of it with their narcissistic family that invalidates it.

31:01I've seen a lot of healing happen. It does happen, but you need to understand what you're dealing with. That's all it is. It's like preparing for something, right? If you're going on a vacation in the architect tundra or in skiing, you want a warm jacket. You're not going to bring a bathing suit. And so it's really about having expectations for what that's going to be, but it's not easy. And especially if this was a parent, this shaped you in some very fundamental ways and therapy becomes important. Some people who are in severe enough narcissistic relationships literally do develop complex trauma.

31:34So it can be quite complicated. It's not always easy, but it's quite possible. I see it happen all the time. And as people see it more clearly, it doesn't mean that it stops hurting, but they do slowly learn to stop blaming themselves. Amazing.

31:49Rachel Lim: And Dr. Ramani, if you could have a billboard that could say any message or any phrase or anything at all, what would your billboard say? It's not you. Yeah. That's really, really powerful. And I also loved earlier when you touched on parents, what we can do. Are there any also last words and advice that you have for us as parents? Because I think this is also seldom talked about from the perspective of raising emotionally healthy children so that they don't fall into narcissistic tendencies. We hear a lot more about this in the context of, you know, relationships or even at work. Are there any other last advice that you have for us as parents?

32:36As parents, I think, you know, a lot of parents say, you know, I don't want to raise a narcissistic child, at least I hope most do. So a couple, it's a balance, right? You know, overindulging a child and telling them you're more special than any other child and the rules don't apply to you and you're the chosen one. that's not good for a child. Either the child's going to end up narcissistic or they're going to feel like an imposter because when they go into the real world and realize they ain't that special, that's not, they're going to, they're really going to crush under that. We want to attune to our children in a healthy way.

33:10The child can't believe that you can't they can break into every conversation, right? They have to understand that the parent is doing something, but to say, let me finish what I'm doing and I'm going to come back to you. And then they go back to them. So the child has the sense of they were heard, but the world doesn't always have to stop for them. But it's attunement, attunement, attunement, attunement. And I think a lot of us as adults are often so busy, we don't look up from our devices or our computer screens or whatever it is we're doing to attune to the children in our midst. And if we do that, it makes a huge difference.

33:45And I think that that's the, and it's not easy because I know a lot of parents out there are balancing multiple responsibilities, lots of financial stress. So I understand what I'm saying is difficult, but it's really about us knowing who we are. That becomes such an important place to being a good parent. I mean, unfortunately, a lot of people aren't up to that challenge.

34:06Rachel Lim: What are some important messages that you think we as parents, you know, have the responsibility or should be able to impart to our kids in this generation about these platforms and devices. I think that, I think we want to teach some critical thinking. And I think part of it too is sit with your child, whatever's developmentally appropriate. If you have a puberty age or a adolescent child, instead of saying TikTok's bad, sit with them and, you know, don't be annoying about it. Don't try to be a teenager because you're not. I think one mistake that parents try to make is they try to be their children's peer.

34:39You're not your child's peer. You're their parent, but let them teach you something. You know, and sometimes with our devices. I know I'll hand my children my device and something that I'm like laboriously pushing button, button, button. They're like, boop, boop, boop. And I'll say, gosh, you so get this, right? Can you show me how to do this? Learn from them. I think that we are, sometimes we'll be defensive if we don't know how something works. Learn from them and be curious about their worlds too. It's too easy to say, TikTok's bad. Social media is bad. It's here. So we're going to have to figure out, it's almost like in public health, we call it harm reduction, right?

35:22So when people are doing things that are unhealthy for them, it's how do we, they're not going to stop doing the unhealthy thing. How do we make the unhealthy thing less unhealthy? But it can't be, it can't be, my kid doesn't interact with this at all. That's not going to happen. And if you try to have a zero tolerance, your kid's going to find a way and then they're going to be doing it in secret. Better that you're on top of how they interact with this medium so you understand it. That's beautiful.

35:49Rachel Lim: And what a strong and important reminder. Dr. Romani, as we wrap up the conversation, do you have any last words for all of us who are listening to you on this topic of narcissism? I want more and more people are using this word narcissism and many people are using it incorrectly so what was what I think that we had a long time we never talked about it then we started talking about it and now we talk about it too much yeah and I think that you know there's people out there who are hurt maybe a partner cheated on them um maybe they have a selfish friend and they're like well they're narcissistic and I think what happens is then there's backlash and people who are actually really going through narcissistic relationships are confused or thinking, well, maybe I'm using this word wrong, or maybe I'm acting like a victim or something like that.

36:37So I think you have to be, it's a very nuanced conversation, but it's a very important conversation. So learn about it. There are good books. I'm not even just say mine. There's other good books out there. Find books that speak to you. There's content out there from good people who make sense. Listen to it. It is a lot more subtle than you think. And I think for a lot of people, they think, well, oh, I think the only way it sounds like if this person's narcissistic, then I have no option then to end the relationship or go no contact. And that's not true. I think people get scared. I think the word scares people to say, oh my gosh, if I find out my parents or my partner's narcissistic, then I have to end the relationship.

37:12No, you don't. It's definitely not going to be an easy ride, but you already know that you've been in the relationship. You know, it's difficult. So this is not a newsflash, but believing that that's the only path forward is a very privileged point of view. I think it's a very one-sided point of view. I'm not saying it's easy when you have to continue interacting with this person, but if you interact with them in a more realistic way, not expecting them to change, not expecting them to be someone else that they're not going to be, actually you can sometimes find that middle path.

37:44Rachel Lim: Amazing. Well, Dr. Ramani, this has been such an incredible conversation with you. For those of us who want to continue to follow your works and your journey, where can we find you online? Yeah. So please, you can follow me on all social media at Dr. Romani. We have a healing program, a monthly healing program. You can learn more about that at my website or on my social media that meets every month for people who are going through narcissistic relationships. We have a great community there. So that's one place to do it. We also have the Dr. Romani Network. Again, my website and the social media go there, which is a great weekly.

38:18It's almost like an interactive podcast kind of space, which is really great. And I answer questions live on the platform. So I have, you know, I have multiple books on the topic. And for those of you who are saying, I just want to check out a little bit about this, go on YouTube. We have new content every single day. And we have a library of like 1500 videos at this point. So organized by topic. So you'll find what you're looking for.

38:39Rachel Lim: Well, Dr. Ramani, thank you so much for all that you do for all of us, for the next generations to come and also you know for pouring your heart into this we really feel it and thank you so much for also taking the time to have this conversation with me for Asia especially you know even though you're not feeling your best and you're not feeling well I really appreciate you and thank you so much we hope to host you in Singapore soon thank you I'd love it yeah thank you

39:16Thank you.